UKH

Equal but different to men but in a minority in the climbing community.

I'm thinking of proposing a women's climbing forum at UKClimbing.com.

A place where women and men can discuss women's climbing topics and issues, find partners, give encouragement, talk women's specific climbing gear and outdoor clothing, share experiences.....talk anything to do with women and climbing.

If you are interested in this subject when you visit UKClimbing.com you would know where to go.

This new forum would be open only to registered users just like the Chat room and would be moderated by at least three volunteers.

I'm interested in hearing people's opinions on this...yay or nay with reasons.

Ta,

Mick
UKClimbing.com Editor

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Hmmmmmmm

Segregation from the rest of the climbing discussion boards?

Why are we so special that we need another forum to discuss our 'needs'?

I'm happy to discuss any women specific stuff on the general boards - along with the men discussing specific men stuff...

Will there be a men only forum too?

It sounds like we are being shoved in a corner to discuss our needs and queries...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Personally I think it would be completely unecessary, I don't think there'd be that many topics in it once the initial fun had worn off. Also some people may not read it because they have their setting just done to Roacktalk etc. so some questions wouldn't get everyones answers if it was just in Rocktalk, Gear etc.
Women may still be in a minority in the sport but it doesn't feel like we are here on UKC, and wy do we need a seperate space, are our gear struggles, and climbing related issues not as relevant as mens, so need to be tucked away seperately?

In reply to Katie Weston:

sing it girlfriend

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Another vote against I'm afraid Mick. No need. We're loud enough to be heard as it is.

Jo

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Ugh no!
I think gender is irrelevant in climbing. I don't want to be "the girlie" in the group. I mostly climb with males so why should I need a forum? This is one sport where the sexes don't need separate rules - let's keep it that way

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: against it - let's be equal

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I am unclear as to why you think this would be a good idea. if there's a women only forum, should there be a men only one too? if anything, to use 'that sort' of language, I'd find having to use a separate forum demeaning and a bit disempowering.

also, why would it be open to registered users only? to prevent abuse? it would mean that women casually browsing the site for information would be forced to register to get the information they're looking for, whcih I think is a bit of a sneaky way of upping registrations/or turning women away from the site.

Please don't do this to us.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'm joining in with the general nayness.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Does that mean we can have a wildlife category in the photo section instead?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

You are joking - right? What ever happened to everyone being equal?

I would be a 'nay'.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

No, for all the reasons cited above.

Having said that, they should be obliged to listen to us during political debates, as they never do. Anything you can do about that?!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

you mention women being a minority... is part of the idea behind this proposed (or at least suggested) forum the idea that women's voices on UKC aren't heard, or are swamped by men? I might be wrong (seeing as how I never bloody shut up!) but I find that quite hard to believe. I'd like to see some further proof of the veracity of that idea before thinking that a separate forum was a good idea.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

agreed! nay i'm afraid. there's no real need and it'll just create more of a gapwhich is another we don't need

Oh - I know - is it to help this guy out: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=195074

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Please tell us Mick why you think its a good idea that you were going to propose it?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I agree with the other comments...no need for a separate forum! Most users seem quite happy to debate the merits of pee-mates and other such women specific topics in the usual forums.

Kirsten

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Dear Mick

That is a great idea, even though I will not be posting in the forum.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

why do you think it's a good idea, Norrie?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Seems a bit pointless. How different would it be to the normal forums if women AND men were there?

I assumed you were going to say that only women could go on there (but then again - how would you regulate that?!).

The other thing is that it would be full of even more men than the normal forums on the hunt for females!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I'm a no. Men & women climb together nowadays y'know. This smacks of old skool chauvanism clad in the guise of 'special interests'.

On what criteria would topics be moved to the 'Women's Room/Snug' ? Because the topic is truly women focussed or because women are mainly contributing to it or that it is originated by a woman?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I forgot to say thank you for thinking of us though. Honestly. Just not a great idea.

In reply to JoH:

Aye, seconded

In reply to marie:

<sound of Mick tutting and muttering 'bloody women! I do't know why we bother sometimes! never bloody happy!'>

In reply to CJD:

Dear C

The main, but not the only reason is Mick's proposal for it to be "moderated by at least three volunteers".

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

And you wanted to be one of them?

In reply to Norrie Muir:

ah, interesting. I thought that was an interesting point about his proposal. Moderating forums seems like a trickier proposition, politically at least, than, say, moderating photos. I wonder how the moderators would be selected.

I still don't like the idea of a separate forum, btw, I'm just intrigued by this bit.

In reply to marie:

I'll ask some more questions.

Why are women in a minority in the climbing community?

Do women climbers get discriminated against because of their gender?

Why is there a company called "Gear For Girls" that specialise in women's outdoor clothing?

Why is there several guiding companies that cater exclusively for women?

How are women different than men?

Brede Arkless and her women climbing friends used to meet at Tremadoc with their kids. They had a type of creche...they took it in turns to look aftrer the kids and chat whilst the others climbed, then swopped. Do men do this?

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'm still intrigued as to why you think that here on UKC the women would welcome a women only forum.

even judging by the limited responses on this thread, it's not looking like the greatest of ideas.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I must add that this is not a novel idea in the world of climbing forums. They have a Ladies Room at rockclimbing.com.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

>How are women different than men?

That's one for your mum to tell you when you get old enough.

In reply to Sandrine:

Dear S

I would leave the moderating to useless people like you.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

So we should be just like the Americans

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

thirded, thank you for asking us before you decide to go ahead with it.

One question though, have you thought that the reason women post on this forum instead of a different one, is because it's not 'segregated'?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'm not particularly familiar with rockclimbing.com but I'm suspecting this forum has stuff that they don't too.

for the purposes of this forum, surely we're people first, climbers second then male or female third. We're (mostly) adults, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn when I say that as a woman I really don't need my hand holding, I can hold my own amongst the men on this forum - and, watching other posts, so, it seems, can most of the other women.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

No. I dont think so.

Niche in the market - it's like walking into New Look or Principles.

Because sometimes women feel happier going away on their own in the company of just other women. I dont feel like this though but can understand why some women might feel a bit threatened in possible male only company.



When applied to climbing - not that much to need a seperate forum

Yes, men do. In fact it was a guy (Masood) who has organised the first and next childrens picnic.

In reply to marie:

all very well said.

i'm impressed at how much even the concept of this is bugging me.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I think a separate women's site started by women, or a women's climbing mag (as they have in the US) is one thing. A separate women's section started by men, without women asking for it is another. No offence at all Mick, but I suspect that may be part of the problem.

Also, I expect it would be frequented by men on here desperate for a climbing girlfriend.


Child birth and rearing
Role models
Some women being more risk adverse and more girly. Sounds awful.


I do not feel I have. but then I would not climb with sexist men. Maybe this is worse abroad.

There are many, many women's sports retailers. They've tapped in on a market, that women like to look attractive and feminine sometimes when doing all sorts of sports.

Safety issues amongst others, and I guess you get less patronised.

Yes, I do like talking about this, and learn most from other women climbers.

Well that parents and kids climbing meet was organised by a man here, but on the whole no. Some men use climbing as an escape from their families. A hobby just for them. Other couples share the child responsibilities so they can both climb. Sure there are sexist men.

In reply to marie: Just wanted to clarify about women being in a minority.

I mean on the forums and with the people I know that climb - There are loads of women climbers who use the forums and plenty at the crags.

I recently went to one meet where there was only 1 guy!

Some sports will always attract one gender over the other - a bit like netball or cricket.

In reply to rock waif: Hmmmm, as far as Im aware there have only been two kid specific meets - both organised by Masood, which makes it, on the whole, 100% to the guys arranging them!

In reply to Jenn:

We are all still working on that: men and women, rich and poor, black and white, east and west, indigenous people and invaders, locals and second home owners. I'm sure you can think of more examples.

Now whilst we all should be equal, we aren't.

We become equal when we are empowered and have a voice (and economic leverage), there is strength in numbers (good problem actually, V5 with the sds).........that's why women have more rights today.....

Climbing has come a long way in gender equity for many reasons but there is still a way to go.

M

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'd like to add my voice to the No s. I don't think there is any need, and unless there is a male specific forum (inculding such interesting topics as how exactly to arrange bits of the anatomy in a harness for example) then I think it would be needless and insulting segregation.

HR

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

But women do have a voice already on UKC. I think that separating them out would only detract from this.

BTW - I just became British. I was naturalised last month. Were you considering doing the opposite?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

You'll be knocking your proposal stone dead then Mick? Or doing a Blair and re packaging and trying again later?

Did you have a sponsor lined up for it or am I being cynical?

Can we have a forum for short people where we can moan about how unfair it all is and how you can find a harness that will fit a 23'' waist?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I don't like this idea either - for the same reasons already stated above.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


[...]
Climbing has come a long way in gender equity for many reasons but there is still a way to go.

I'm sorry, I don't get this. In what way are women less equal that men in *climbing*? I am allowed to climb at the same crags. I feel just as equal as male climbers. Admittedly I feel less equal than good climbers, but this is not neccessarily a facet of being female but rather of being crap. What about a crap climbers forum? Or ginger? I propose a ginger persons climbing forum where people can talk about being ginger? Come on, its really not needed - all these issues apply to us all and no one needs any specail treatment based soley on gender.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Think you pretty much got your verdict from all the raving women!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Crikey. Even before clicking the thread and reading your suggestion in full in the OP, alarm bells were ringing. Frankly (and with all respect to all the work you put in for us), the very notion is insulting. Sorry to be so blunt.

CJD nails it, thus "we're people first, climbers second then male or female third"

I won't repeat some of the points that others have already made, I'll merely add:
how exactly do you propose checking posters for gender? How would you stop men "invading" such a forum?

It's redolent of something Tanya Donelly once said about turning down an invitation to contribute to a "Women in Rock" (no climbing pun intended) article - the very phrase "Women in Rock" seemed to suggest that rock music was a male world that women were sometimes "permitted" to visit.


Er so that'll be a "no" from me

All that said...I am curious as to where this notion has sprung from. Have a lot of women been in touch with you to let you know that they don't get involved with the forum because it seems too male-cliquey and they've been wary of starting any posting?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: No way ? i would miss the chat etc ?
Flock

This thread was started in the wrong forum and has now been moved.
Please could you try and post in the correct forum, it makes life easier for both users and moderators.

Forum descriptions - http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/info/forums.html

(it will now be found in the ladies room)

In reply to lost1977: 'Ladies Room' sounds like the toilet

In reply to marie:

exactly

In reply to lost1977:

LOL - that was classic!!

Missed 'ya on Friday...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

The only possible benefit would be that it would give a more suitable home to Pete W's drivel

Other than that of course: No

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

maybe there should be a soppy fluff forum instead?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

surely if you got a women's only forum you would need to have a mens only one aswell?

In reply to holly (at school):

Aren't you on the way to Tanzania?!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
For a complexity of reasons. Some are historic; because women were discouraged from participating until surprisingly recently and there are still occasional pockets of discrimination although it's a lot better than it was. Also things like childcare can get in the way, plus social pressure from non-climbing relatives, friends, officials etc.
To get the most out of climbing you have to be both selfish and assertive, which is uncomfortable for some women and contrary to historical social conventions.

Sometimes, yes. But it's a lot better than it used to be.
Because women come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes and mens clothes are a lousy fit for most of us.

Because sometimes it's nice to know there is not going to be some arrogant competitive tw*t in the group, or someone who is going to assume that they are the natural leader by virtue of their gender. Of course it's no guarantee. Some women can be just as difficult, and lots of men are not pushy at all.
I have had some great days out in all-women groups. The women's international meet was an interesting and very positive experience for example. There was a very supportive and non-competitive atmosphere all through the week. Then when the men were let in at the end; competitiveness and aggression returned, sexuality took over, and women who were pals the day before became rivals for male attention the day after. All female groups are not better or worse; just different.


I think we enjoy arguing less, are more polite and have different verbal conventions. For example;

Him: Would you like to lead first.
Her: No, no, you lead first.
Him: OK.
Her (thinks): Damn; he really stitched me up there, he was supposed to say 'no, no I insist' so I could have said 'oh, alright then' without looking rude.

Climbing is inherently selfish and most women are not.
I've always thought this would be a great idea, but in practise it's quite difficult to co-ordinate. Its much easier to leave the kids at home with your partner.

In reply to Alison Stockwell: I agree with all that you have said ?
flock

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It'll just attract pervs with muff fixations!



G

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

You want to give us our own forum so we can discuss childcare & climbing fashion? Perhaps we could all sit in there polishing our nails and discussing diets, babies, boyfriends and the contents of this weeks Heat magazine too!

Surely the childcare thing is a family issue rather than female specific? And I know i've posted a couple of times recently that it'd be nice to meet a few more female climbing partners, but i don't need a whole new forum for that! ;0)

I don't see the point of a female only forum, there's nothing that would be discussed there that isn't already covered by the existing rooms.
And, if the idea is to create a "female friendly" zone to encourage the novice climber ladies out there who might stumble across the site, then surely it would need to be available/visible to the unregistered visitors?

In reply to Kenny:
Quite right. Do men go around conscious of their maleness all the time? I'm not even aware that I'm female most of the time. I'm just a person, getting on with life. And in my world that entails climbing.

In reply to Fille:


Seconded! Anyone want to vote on that?

Yeah, I know this is a benevolent dictatorship, <southern US accent>I jes lurv ta vote</>

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Would be great if all the random late night drivel from scotland were to be sidelined. You'd have no forum left though but save yourself a fortune in moderating. How about a poetry forum too, maybe call it /dev/null
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

I think they should have a sealed cage for Hotbad Peteel vs Adam Lincoln cage fighting

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Sounds like a bead lalloon, from the responses, but the Culture Bunker got a lot of flak, and didn't get much support initially (you could guarantee that your thread would still be up there in a week's time, even with only a couple of responses from days ago). Now it's become a pretty well-frequented part of the site.

Despite the responses here, it might open the site up to some users with different motives and priorities. I don't think I'll be playing much part (might be Christmas to Pete W, though), but it might just work. In fact, looking at the differences between the stated (often rather conservative) opinions of posters about changes/additions on chatrooms, and their later responses, those who say nay most loudly may well turn out to be the biggest users!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

No, Mick. Duff idea. Marie's absolutely right. Segregation of any kind is completely against the spirit of these threads. The richness of it is that everyone is on the same playing field, with the exactly the same status (can post anonymously, or whatever, or pretend to be the opposite sex).

In reply to Alison Stockwell:


I really had never thought about that kind of conversation, damn you for starting me thinking Is there a rule of some kind for how often men should insist before accepting the given answer?

I've got the idea that in general conversation there's no such thing as a straight question or answer, but I had assumed that climbing was somehow a simpler game. Seems I'm wrong again!

In reply to Steve Parker:

it might just end up as yet another stalking ground along with the lifts and partners forum for the unsuspecting.
p

In reply to adam carless:

its either odd or even and its the opposite to what you do.
p

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Good idea...they could discuss cake recipes and knitting patterns there.

In reply to Steve Parker:

No disagreement with that, BUT...
The Culture Bunker does however just seem mostly to contain exactly the same sorts of music threads that used to be in Down the Pub. The notion of people doing "proper" reviews (in the form of "At Play in the Fields of the Lord - Peter Matthiessen: Book Review" with a decent piece of text and an intelligent discussion), fell utterly flat...well worse than that, it resulted in some major barnies, as you of all people should know




Ahem. That amuses me greatly. I refer the learned Parker to my earlier posting on this thread:

"how exactly do you propose checking posters for gender? How would you stop men "invading" such a forum? "

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:


Yeah, I've had conversations along the lines of:
me: Do you want to do this (points) route?
partner: (vaguely positive sounds)
me: Do you want to lead it?
partner: (vaguely negative sounds)
me: Ok, I'll lead it then

But I haven't thought that this meant I was supposed to play "no no, after you" for a few rounds before sorting out who actually was going to have the pointy end of the rope.

In reply to Fille:

Yes, maybe something like the 'weepy, fluffy room', or the 'emotional indulgence module', or perhaps even 'the wavering upper lip rest home'?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: How about the 'Anonymous'....My wife/husband/partner etc etc' forum??

That way all those going through some kind of emotional crisis could be kept in one place.

In reply to Kenny:

There has been the occasional "One for the blokes" thread on here. Naturally I'm always irresistibly compelled to click on those.

In reply to Kenny:

lol, interesting idea.

Back to the original point...
Mick, rather than a ladies room have you considered a "youth" forum. Just as much a minority group here as female climbers, they often have different issues/attitudes/interests to the older posters and search for partners of similar age & experience.
They're the future of the sport so surely we should welcome them but a lot of the content of the existing rooms is rather er... adult. If i was the parent of a young climber, I think i'd be happier with them posting & reading this site if there was an area that was child-safe.

In reply to wcdave:

Yes, that's better. Maybe, though, just the 'My most personal problems soap box?'

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

how about the 'members of opposite sex trying to drop in loads of innuendo in the hope they'll get into bed next time they meet at a picnic' forum? kinda catchy i think and far truer to real life.
p

In reply to johnscholes: So do I so give me a ring sometime! Want to hear what you've all been up to.....

In reply to Kenny:


Dunno, was just speculating around the fact that there seem to be X amount of non-posting lurkers, some of them female, who occasionally come out and post on female-oriented threads. Plus, it's the way of chatrooms to add more categories for those users they think aren't catered for. To some extent it's valid to do so, for a variety of reasons, not least commercial. Whether I think it's an enhancement from my point of view is really irrelevant - whether it would expand the site might be more the issue, so Mick might be doing the wrong sort of market research entirely.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Good one, but a slightly different subject. There would be a huge demand for it, though, I'm sure.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

That's a good idea. Then we could tell from which forum it's in whether threads like "Does true love exist?" are anguished cries for sympathy or genuine attempts at objective discussion.

Not that it would make any difference to me. I'd avoid the thread anyway.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

I'm obviously missing out on lots of goss!

In reply to Kenny:
"At Play in the Fields of the Lord - Peter Matthiessen: Book Review" with a decent piece of text and an intelligent discussion), fell utterly flat...well worse than that, it resulted in some major barnies, as you of all people should know
Hmm, seem to recall no 'barnies' there. I recall recommending 'Killing Mister Watson'. Reiterating the recommendation, in case missed. Barnies-a-plenty elsewhere, of course. No big deal about that, I hope. What's a effin chatroom for?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It's an awful idea for reasons already stated. Not going to say any more as otherwise I'll get on my soap box and be here all night!

In reply to SecretSquirrel:

That's a good idea. I've noticed that the young people on here quite often spark off on their own threads; but it's easy to accidentally encroach if you don't realise that's what the thread is about.

In reply to Steve Parker:

One concern I have is that we're going to end up with about two dozen forums, about anything and everything under the sun, from personal hobbies and personal hobby-horses to religious beliefs and extremist hatreds, and climbing will become just a detail, about 20th down the list.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

forums we need:

teenage angst
anons who've got questions about their partners
generic trolling forum
football
government policy denunciations
legal advice
general diy tips

I think that cover them all so i'm off to bed.
night all
p

In reply to Steve Parker:

I didn't post a review of 'At Play in the Fields of the Lord' (it's very good and I recommend it, btw). I didn't want to cite a real example in case it looked like I was baiting you...but let's just say it involved Kidman's ex, mac_climb, and someone getting extremely upset at being referred to by their surname and by some deleted posts. I stayed away for 2 weeks after that one. I don't think there's been a formal review since then.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

It doesn't anything like cover them all. We definitely need separate ones (straight off the top of my head) on:

evolution
atheism
joining abseil ropes
Israel
and
grades of marginal HVS/E1s at Froggatt Edge
for a start off.

In reply to dpmUK:

And you just don't want to see him dancing on a pedestal, it's not a pretty sight!

(sorry, I'll put the claws away)

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

You must be tired, you dopey git! You forgot

Aggrieved cyclists
and of course
"I got a speeding ticket, how can I 'beat the system'" (though that might be covered either by generic trolling or legal advice, admittedly)

oh and that old favourite whcih always generates a long thread:

"what compact digital camera to take underwater in the Alps and shoot great video in really low light so I can blow it up to poster size"

In reply to Kenny:

Oh, gosh, how could I have forgotten also that huge subject:

Apostrophe's (sic)

?

In reply to Kenny:


I missed that one! What was the conclusion? Buy an SLR and get stronger, or buy a small Oly or Canon and a decent strobe pair?

In reply to adam carless:

disposable 35mm camera, £2.98 in Tesco

In reply to Kenny:

Oh, I'm getting misled then. Someone posted something about a Matthiesson book a while back, and I responded briefly. He's a pretty awesome writer when he wants to be.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Come on you all, does this not reek of goats & bridges? This has to be the best conceived troll ever, by the UKC controllers themselves. Look at who has come out tonight voicing such strong opinions against it! If I'm right, only one post after the OP too.

Mick, if it isn't a troll, I'm with the lassies all the way.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The imperative is traffic whilst maintaining credibility, surely?

In reply to Caroline Wilson: Wll do !
Flock

In reply to Kenny:


Ahh, gotcha, doesn't meet any of the criteria, but it's dead cheap and the photos would be crap anyway, so don't waste the money. I was forgetting where I was

In reply to Caroline Wilson:

Hello Barm Pot,

Feeling better myself and could cope to talking to you all!!! Me and tenk off to Donegal Saturday but will see you in September, October, November and so on.......................................................

Sorry Caroline!

Love Kelly the barm pot (come see us soon, or us you)!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I am gay.





























































Can we have a gay section to the forum, We might let PC septics twunts in if they in line with our chakras.

In reply to John Rushby:


I am not a septic twunt, so why do we need a separate section. Do not want a female/male section so why a Gay Section.

Cheers

Kelly

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It wouldn't be segregation at all. That's way off the mark. I'm not suggesting at all that posts by women would be moved to the woman's forum. In fact none would be moved. It would be business as usual. The moderation would be there only within such a forum to stop the inevitable posts from idiots - bad language and sexist remarks. It would be there to give more diversification, focus, organisation and interest within the forums as a whole.

One of the best examples I could give is if a new women climber came to UKC she would be able to browse or post on a woman's forum to ask questions about starting climbing and to enquire about other women's climbing experiences. Nor would it be enclave for women to talk about knitting and make-up, or a soppy-emotional forum as suggested by some above.....that's quite insulting.

Nor am I suggesting a woman's only forum, it would be open to all (registered users). I'm sure men would love it.

Of course another suggestion that has arisen is a Beginner's Forum and as suggested above a Youth forum which would also be useful.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

What on earth is the point?

It seems that all the points you have raised in favour of this new forum have all been demolished by the very people you want to use it.

You would be opening a can of worms in my opinion, although It would be nice to know there is somewhere on UKC where we can discuss Brad Pitt and waterproof make-up.

Onle last thing - Any chance of a "glamour" or "male interest" sub-section in the photography forum??

In reply to CJD: Definitely not a good idea, an interchange forum between women and men is far preferable, could be the only time they ever speak to each other

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Ignoring the original topic for a mo, perhaps it would be interesting to see more of the women on UKC posting about climbing on the Rocktalk forum??

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


And yet from various threads over the last weeks you have ethnically diverse, female, even ginger (joke!!) people who have all suggested they are more than happy and comfortable starting and commenting on the various threads without the need to raise the "minority group" treat me special card. (and surely thats the point, the environment is such that they aren't and don't feel discriminated against)

If I were female I'd feel pi**ed that the assumption is made that I'm not capable or too intimidated to ask female specific questions in the open forum.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Another no vote here for reasons already stated in this thread.

In reply to Trangia: why shouldnt we have a mans forum for the same reasons - agaisnt it sorry!

Mike

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Men are in a minority in many sports, we cannot make women take part, just make them welcome if they choose to.

Probably sometimes, women sometimes descriminate against men, the attitudes of people taking part in the sport refect the attitudes of the people not the sport.

You may not have noticed, but women are a different shape to men and companies have noticed with increasing numbers of women in the sport is makes good business sense to cater for then.

Some women are more relaxed in the company of other women, some men are more relaxed in company of other men.

Men and women are different in many way, but they are also individuals so do not share all the same differences.

I know of men who do this.

In response to your original idea of a womens forum, why increase division between the sexes, it will only serve to increase negative attitutes on both sides.

In reply to Stormmagnet:


Uhhhh yes I have noticed. In fact I've just been to an Outdoor Trade show in Germany (Friedrichshafen) and attended a special show called 'Outdoor Women'.

See also

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=107

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: So a women's forum would be free of idiots, bad language and sexism.

Two points

1. Women's are capable of bad language, sexism and being idiots.

2. So a women's forum would be moderated differently??????

In reply to Stormmagnet:

Aware of that.


No, same guidelines but dedicated moderators.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Mick

Please tell me this is a troll?

I haven't trawled through all the thread - but the idea is so obviously sexist that I can't believe you're not having a laugh.

Gender is rarely an issue here, let's not make it one.

John

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

in a classic male/female thing, are you going to listen to the views of the women who've posted on this thread or are you going to go ahead and do this anyway?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Well done Mick ! you have suceeded in doing something I have never seen in my five years on these forums, you have managed to achieve a concensus opinion! A universal rejection of a poorly thought out idea - but dont let that stop you, if YOU think it's a good idea, go right ahead

In reply to CJD:

Ooooooh
The women posting on this thread are not the target users though. Mick's already "got" you lot He's going after the wallflowers now, ha haa.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

a womens forum, oh yes please
would save time trawling through the rest of the forums to try and find a woman
great idea

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Leaving aside the matter of your successful nights fishing from under the bridge could you explain:

1) Where has the perceived need for this supposed forum come from. According to this thread not the relevant constituency of forum users.

2) In what way would it differ from the existing forums? From what you have thus far described it will be no different to Rocktalk/DTP other than it will be moderated by "wimmin".

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: A "no" vote from me as well.

In reply to CJD:

Now, that's an interesting question!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'm also with the no camp. A women only forum is both unnecessary and unwanted.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

A big no from me too.

Not at any point since posting on forums has it ever struck me how novel and nice it would be to have a dedicated women's only forum so there's evidently no need.

I think you have a resounding 'thanks but no thanks' here Mick.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
No thanks
(a contented lurker)

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Having now skimmed through the whole thread - there is an overwhelming majority (all) saying no, that a women's forum isn't necessary and isn't wanted...but you're still defending the idea and suggesting that it goes ahead anyway?

In reply to Fawksey:


Have you got a sponsor lined up Mick?

Bob

In reply to Bella:

Another "no" vote, for what it's worth. Rockclimbing.com has one, and is certainly none the better for it. I like to think that UKC people are generally well balanced and not so anal as to require that kind of PC tomfoolery.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I've changed my mind - yes, let's have a separate forum for women.

This will reduce the appalling quantity of rubbish thread about

washing up
which is the best iron to give good underwear creases
which hair remover (lip and legs)
to brazilian or not to brazilian
which shoes match their handbag and whether they can get a cerise rope to match the crag

It would be a wonderful forum because all the women would become in sync with each other and there could be the monthly rant instead of now when we do not know when they are 'on' and we should treat them more gently!

In reply to Bella:

as I said earlier...

CJD ? on - 09:25 Mon
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

in a classic male/female thing, are you going to listen to the views of the women who've posted on this thread or are you going to go ahead and do this anyway?


that'll be a 'yes' then...

nice to see we're not living up to gender stereotypes, eh Mick? ha haaaaa!

(that'll be the classic male 'selective deafness' then)

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I have to say I'm against this to.

I think a big part of it is I'm really worried you will give it a PINK icon (or baby blue or Lavender).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'm getting paranoid in my own age.

Now I think this was a clever rouse to get us women to assess and explore our own femininity and attitude to it. Had Mick already predicted a riotous response to his thread because we've possibly been conditioned (through history)into a 'classic feminist' retort the second a male suggests something that is non-male orientated. Had a woman suggested this would the response have been any different?

ooooh paranoia eating into my brain..

In reply to JoH:

I think it's got more to do with finding a sponser at:

Uhhhh yes I have noticed. In fact I've just been to an Outdoor Trade show in Germany (Friedrichshafen) and attended a special show called 'Outdoor Women'.

All he didn't do was think his argument out first.

One more forum won't make a difference. You can just ignore it on your settings. I'm sure it won't last without any posts.

Bob

In reply to bob champion:
Ah ut would the mods move any post that is about women (or even written by women) into this new women's forum ? :-S

BTW, another vote for thanks but no thanks.

In reply to CJD:

UKC management is split on new forums, some want more, some say leave as is. As always we ask the most important people at UKC....you.

The point of this is to explore possibilities and attitudes.

As I originally posted:

"I'm thinking of proposing a women's climbing forum at UKClimbing.com. "

"I'm interested in hearing people's opinions on this...yay or nay with reasons."

So yes, listening very attentively. There are some strong arguments against, but also some very weak arguments against that fall in to the typical ill-thought out or conditioned knee-jerk responses.

Discussion is good.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

fair point.

In reply to CJD: go on - it would be great seeing a list like;

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In reply to Glyn Jones:


I think you'll find this topic is discussed more by men than women...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Why do they want more?

There is a very real risk of the place becoming fragmented.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

But where are the strong arguments *for* this proposal? Where is the evidence that having a women's forum will do anything for gender equality? Or serve any other useful purpose? This whole approach seems to me to be very misguided and it treats women (and perhaps men by implication) as far more homogenous than they really are.

Also, I'm not entirely sure what the women's specific issues are really? OK, there are issues about gear and clothing and there's the perennial questions of sexism and gender differences. But the last two are questions of gender not women's issues. Some women are not interested in gender issues but some are. However, some men are interested in gender too (like Mick!) and will discuss gender issues like sexism, stereotyping and gender differences just as happily as some women will. I think it is very important not to confuse women's issues (or men's) with gender issues. It seems to me that these forums already contain lots of information exchange and intersting debates about these areas and so I can't see what problem you're trying to fix (let along how a women's forum would fix it).

And, btw, very well said to whoever commented that childcare issues are *family* issues not women's issues. I'm the last person to try and suggest that childcare is not an area of huge gender inequality (despite some noteworthy and encouraging examples to the contrary) but how on earth is a women's forum going to challenge things like that? So, let's reframe the issue as being about how to fit childcare and climbing around each other. In my view, that doesn't belong in a women's forum. Although in reality childcare is often performed by women (and this is sometimes used to defend the idea that it is a women's issue), designating it as a women's issue only serves to perpetuate this situation and validate the sexist stereotypes that underpin it and, in that sense, undermines gender equality.

Sorry, but as you can tell, this whole business about women's issues really gets on my ...

My main point here, really, is where are the arguments for having a women's specific forum and - most importantly - where's the evidence to back up these arguments?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Dear Mick

How dare you suggest women have "ill-thought out or conditioned knee-jerk responses".

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Where did he suggest that it was the women?

In reply to Bingly Bong:

Dear Bingly

Where did he say it was men either. As this is a non sexist website, you seem to be paranoid and obsessed with equall status until it suits you.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir: Bingley didn't mention men

Seems you are the one who has to narrow it down to sex

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I think you'll find I didnt say either - it was you who specified a gender in your post...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Why don't you have a "trial forum of the month" feature, where you set up a new forum on a trial basis and then see how much it gets used. Any forums that get fewer than fifty posts a month can be deleted. (Whooops! Bang goes the BMC forum :-P)

In reply to cathsullivan:
Would echo everything above, and to make another suggestion, if you are truelly desperate for a new forum what about a "family matters" forum, would be a place for all of Pete W's mush, anonymous my partners done such and such, along with issues about getting kids involved in climbing, dificulties of getting back into climbing with kids, anything associated with peoples personal lives, leaving the chatroom for just the really odd, random topics.

In reply to Bingly Bong:

Sorry, yes you are correct - women discuss whether their roots are showing !

I stand corrected!

In reply to Glyn Jones: lol

Their roots are showing 'where'? :oS

In reply to Bingly Bong:

Innocent answer - their head

Mucky answer - bikini line!

In reply to Katie Weston: That is actually a very good idea, although I would be happy with 2 forums.

1. Climbing related.
2. Not climbing related.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
It would be a 'no' vote from me, for the reasons already outlined by CJD, Alison etc above.

I don't think there is any need for it and I'm not sure what criteria would be used to put posts in there. Would it be any post by a female? Or any posts mentioning females? And would females have to climb 'hard' before they were admitted to Rocktalk?

In reply to Katie Weston:



Shouldn't that be call 'Emo's corner' of 'The Shoe Gazers Grotto'?

G

In reply to Stormmagnet:
Except that would show how little some of us actually talk about climbing!

In reply to Nao:

No.


No


No

Purely a by choice forum. Either use it or ignore it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

so, Mick, where *are* the arguments *for* this forum, as requested by cathsullivan above?

what's your thinking behind suggesting it?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

So what criteria would you expect people to use in order to choose to post in that forum?

Not trying to be antagonistic... just not really understanding the reasoning. Would it be like the Chat Room for women?

(Oh, and would PeteW be allowed in?)

In reply to Nao:

Mick seems determined to go ahead. I second Katie's "family matters" forum as a compromise, but if no compromise is reached, ignoring it will be best, and maybe it will go away if NO-ONE posts there

In reply to Caralynr: What happens if mods think a post is better placed in that forum though? Will they move it? Or ignore it and leave it where it was originally put?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
If you are truly looking for a representative sample of views then why don't you post a vote or something on the front page of UKC?

I just can't really imagine what circumstances would merit use of a special female forum.

PS If you do make one, can we nominate a female moderator?

In reply to Caralynr:

I think if you wanted to make a non-threatening forum then it would be better to do a 'newbies' or 'beginners' forum.

In reply to Nao:

It would be an entirely personal choice and as I said above women-related climbing posts would not be moved into it from other forums, you'd be free to posts women-related posts in any of the other forums as you are now. It would however be somewhere easily identifiable and accessible were you could read or post about women-related climbing posts, if you so wanted. Some would, some wouldn't.

Mick

In reply to Nao:

Mentioned above by several people, as were "Youth" and "Family" forums and certainoly worth investigating.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

so are you actually going to answer my question about what your arguments *for* this are? or what your thinking is behind proposing it? though the arguments against veer from strong to weak, the thing that unites them is that they're all opposed to it in some form or other.

Your seeming refusal to acknowledge that is making for rather amusing reading.

In reply to Bingly Bong:

I'm slightly worried that if a post a Where do i find XXXX that fits me? question it would be moved from the gear forum into the womens forum. This is the last thing i want to happen.

In reply to es:

Indeed. It would mean that posts about gear go in the gear forum and posts about women's gear go in the women's forum. Hey presto! Gear therefore becomes men's gear and women's gear skips off into the special needs corner.

In reply to CJD:

Can we have a full on CJD hissy fit, please?

G

In reply to Graham:

Not today, as it will just make me laugh too much and my ribs are too sore for that.

In reply to es:
I think the thing about the 'wimminy' posts that they are proposing would go into the women's forum is that they could also fit in with other forums, like the Gear Forum or Rocktalk or whatever.

The only topics I can conceive of that would go particularly into the women's forum would be the She-Wee topic of a few weeks ago. And even then, I think that was rather frequented by the male posters.

PS I think the proposed women's forum, if it goes ahead, should have a different colour scheme to the other ones (pinks and mauves and pastels). To reflect our needs as women. And possibly some pan pipe music.

In reply to es:
<humour>
This thread was started in the wrong forum, don't worry dear, we've moved it for you.
Please could you try and post in the correct forum, it makes life easier for men.

Forum descriptions - http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/info/forums.html
</>

In reply to Graham: Or even an answer to the question! What does a CJD hissy fit look like, btw? Is it good?

In reply to es:

Dear e

A non sexist person would have replied “It applies equally to men and women, so why mention only women?” Your reply is a good example of a knee-jerk response.

Norrie

In reply to bob champion:


Bingo!

Mick - Are you going to answer Bobs question??

In reply to Bingly Bong:

Dear Blingly

A non sexist person would have replied “It applies equally to men and women, so why mention only women?” Your reply is a good example of a knee-jerk response.

Norrie

In reply to cathsullivan:

As I said above, "It would be an entirely personal choice and as I said above women-related climbing posts would not be moved into it from other forums, you'd be free to posts women-related posts in any of the other forums as you are now. It would however be somewhere easily identifiable and accessible were you could read or post about women-related climbing posts, if you so wanted. Some would, some wouldn't. "

Mick

In reply to cathsullivan:
Go on Mick, play fair. We've all told you why we don't want one, but in teh spirit on good debate you should now present your reasons why you want one!
Yes we all now get the message, you won't move the posts, use will be purely voluntary, but why do you think us women need a womens forum?

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

Non of the forums are directly sponsored. The very existance of this site however is funded in part by adverts. No adverts, no site, no forums.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

You're becoming an expert with cut and paste now aren't you Norrie.

Well done.

I didnt need to give a reason for asking you a simple question.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Perhaps you need a trial period, a beta version or something, and you could see how many people post in it over, say, a week. My guess is not a lot unless they're trolling/looking for internet dates. But it would be useful to know if people would use it, before instigating it permanently.

In reply to cathsullivan:

Quite spectacular!

Perhaps a forum titled 'Hissy fits' would be more use.

G

In reply to Norrie Muir:

However, I do recognise that you are always right.

How silly of me to question a post of yours...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Sorry, Mick, I didn't mean to imply that UKC would move the posts as I can see that you've said several times that this wouldn't happen. I was thinking more that the structure of the forums would encourage posting about women's gear in the women's forum, which would still encourage the idea that normally gear is for men but that there are also women's versions of this gear. I fear that the segregation would have the same effects (i.e., perpetuating the idea that the 'default' climber is a man) whether it is something that is encouraged by the structure of the forums or something that is imposed by the moving of posts.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Some companies would be more tempted to pay for a premium post to sell female gear to a female audience though.

I can see the marketing now. The only all female forum on the website that is the voice of UK climbing.

If this is the case, I'm sure it may have had a warmer reception.

As a forum we all use and appreciate it. Without advertising it may need subscriptions to keep it going. If it's about increasing revenue, sell it as that. It seems most people object to it as it appears to be segregating women.

Bob

In reply to Nao: Bit of a waste of effort judging by the resounding 'no' vote on the thread so far.

Forums for Families; Under 18's; Beginners and maybe Older Climbers might be worth considering. No need for gender specificity.

I think there's an advertiser/sponsor lurking in the wings for the 'Wimmins Room'. Not that that is a bad thing in itself but why can't they just sponsor one of the other forums for a while.

In reply to CJD:
You are starting to sound like Paxman interviewing Micheal Howard

Mick, simple enough question why can't you answer it?

In reply to bob champion:

I'll post all my reasons (there are several) later but yes that is one of them Bob.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: probably a good idea for newcomers or non regulars.

i go on a biking forum just for women and find it much more approachable than mixed sex bike forums ( don't feel so stupid for asking beginner questions and female specific kit questions )

good idea Mick but as 100's of posts have said, the regulars don't feel the need for a female forum. doesnt mean to say there shouldn't be one though. I don't see any harm in it.

In reply to Bingly Bong:
Dear Bingly

Thanks.

Mick's proposal is now dead in the water. I now look forward to serious contributions by all users of UKC to climbing topics, mind you I won't hold my breath.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Not sure I dare go against the prevailing opion, but here goes:
maybe yay, as (if it works) it might provide a forum where you can ask a daft question/ put forward a speculative opinion without the aggressive reponses that come up here quite alot. I'm not sure how that would come about, but if it did I think it would be A Good Thing.

It may also provide somewhere where you can put up a question about women specific things (even if it is as daft as clothes that are fit for purpose) without it automatically becomeing a debate about whether we are allowed to discuss a women-specific topic, or whether that is positive/ negative discrimination/ patronising etc.
I dunno, I guess if I was being a bit sensitive about it I'd think it was paronizing, but "Women's hour " on Radio 4 works, despite the annoying title.

Maybe there are climbers out there (female?) who don't want to post here currently, but might be drawn in by the new forum? I'm the only one out of my group of climber friends who ever has a look at the forums, as they are all find it too petty and name-calling (I disagree, so don't nobble me!.

hmmm.. can't decide exactly what I think about it, but I'm not going to dismiss it straight off.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Well your sponsor is apparently targeting a female audience - perhaps you should relay our comments and attitude back to them as their marketing strategy appears to be way off the mark...

In reply to chicken:

I think you make some good points about the weaknesses of the site currently - or, more accurately, the weaknesses of the behaviour of the site members.

I just don't think that a womens' forum will get around those issues...and might actually make them worse.

JMHO

John

In reply to cathsullivan:

Quite.

In reply to LizzieLou:

Seconded.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Dunno, but it's a rapidly growing minority.


Yes, but in a decreasing amount.


Because most retailers don't stock full ranges of women's gear.


Niche market and it means you're less likely to get slowed down by gung-ho Alpha Males / f**kwits.


Not enough room for that one.


Yes. I'll send you a picture if you want.

In reply to chicken:

That sort of assumes that women never give aggressive responses and that men always do. In any case the women's forum would have both men and women on it so even if we assumed that forums populated only by women would always be more forgiving and polite this one wouldn't be women only anyway. Forums can be difficult places to ask 'daft questions' but I'm not sure that a women's forum is the way to tackle that. I'm also not convinced that it is only women who feel this nervousness about sticking their head above the parapet. I agree that it's good if forums are friendly places where you can ask daft questions without getting flamed but just not so sure this is the way to acheive it.

Are there really loads of terrified women out there who want to post but don't dare? If so, perhaps they should grit their teeth and go for it rather than allow themselves to be ghettoised into fluffy corner.


I thought people did this already and it seems quite successful to me.


Unsurprisingly, Women's Hour aggravates me too! LOL!

In reply to SecretSquirrel:

There is no sponsor. As I said, the forums are not 'sponsored'.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I think the forum would catch on in the end.

Just think you've got the initial sell wrong.

As with all individual forums. If you don't like it, Don't use it. If no topics are going to be moved into there it won't affect all those who don't like it. Although I have a sneeky feeling lot's will be lurking in there.

Although hats off, it's brought plenty of female lurkers out of the woodwork. Lets you know just how many are out there.

Been a while since a topic has raised such interest.

Bob

In reply to Katie Weston:



But why don't you?? This is UKClimbing.com after all.

In reply to chicken:

I can understand the merit of creating a "female friendly" area for new/timid ladies, trying to make the whole site more accessible and inclusive (sorry to get all PC).
But I don't want the segregation that I think would inevitably occur.

You might attract the new ladies/lurkers who then post all their "wimmins stuff" in there, but I can see a couple of outcomes...
a) you have duplicated threads and info between the forums because it isn't clear where they belong, newbies are confused about where they should be posting, eventually to clear things up womens kit issues etc get put into the ladies room after all...
b) existing female posters ignore them as a protest against the forum (which isn't very welcoming)
c) existing posters reply so as to be friendly and get drawn into discussions there, don't want to duplicate threads in the main gear, training forums etc - see point A.

I'm sure the intentions behind it are good, but I don't think its a positive step. This isn't a bra-burning-feminist-kneejerk rant against perceived sexism, we just like being part of the main site so please allow us to maintain that equality and freedom.

I think a better way to highlight womens climbing issues would be to have more articles and news items to promote discussion or maybe an archive that could be searched if you want a specific information resource for female climbers.

In reply to marie:

I agree with Marie, don't see the point at all.

Sounds like a whole can of worms, are you going to have gay and lesbian forums next, then what? I am all for just letting folk get on with it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
sponsors/advertisers... you know what i mean!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


'Youth' I imagine constitutes the biggest potential group currently put off. A lot set up a profile but quickly back off when their first encounter is with some bored office worker commenting on their use of English.

Of course, you couldn't call it the youth forum. You'd have to call it the bouldering forum.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


trolling on your own site, whatsup not getting enuf

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Another "No, Thank You."

Incidentally one of the nice things about a forum is that one can choose a non-gender-specific user name. This means that it isn't obvious whether one is male or female and therefore it has to be stated if it is relevant. I like this state of affairs very much. Who cares whether I'm male or female if I'm offering advice on the best way to set up a belay (not that I've the experience to do that!)? And then I can say I'm female if I need to (when contributing to threads on women's underwear, for example!)
Anyway, there are sometimes male-specific questions (clothes for tall men or men with big feet, say).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Again, another 'no' here. We don't have seperate sections for black and asian climbers, and as discussed the other day, there aren't as many of them that climb.

I also frequent an american knitting forum which is 99% women. There have been suggestions of a 'men only' space on there, which has been met by much the same response (by the mem!) as on here.

I like the balance on here. There's enough sarcastic smart arses to stop things from getting too mushy, but often sensitive topics are discussed with eloquance and enthusiasm. Although I'll admit, mainly not by me.

In reply to Horse:

it would seem Mick doesn't want to answer me.

hurrah.

<tumbleweed blows through>



<in the distance, a bell chimes>




<a dog howls>

In reply to CJD:

<Fiend goes to throw some sticks for the dog to fetch>

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

oh yes and I've just thought of *yet another* good reason why I'm opposed to this 'women's bit' - the main thing I like about this forum is its inclusivity, so it seems to be rather contradictory to have an area that is, even to a small extent, excluding (simply on the basis of gender).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
why only women only one? why not a male only one also?

In reply to CJD:


haaaaaaa. many of us are generally in favour of them.

<slinks off, shamefaced>

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

note the singular 'bit', young Skwerr.

and get that mind out of the gutter.

In reply to CJD:

I am in the process of reclaiming my smutty side.

Do the 'young' bit again. I like it.

In reply to chicken:


That would be fairly easy to control; look at this thread and identify any aggressive posts. Do something to curtail these aggressive and tedious posts here and throughout the forum.

Mick: over to you and the others at UKC. Mind you, I won't hold my breath.

Having done that, start a beginner's forum, if you must start something.

In reply to captain paranoia:

I think a beginner's forum would be a great idea.

In reply to CJD: Seconded! There could be a section with FAQs too.

In reply to CJD:

You sure? Might reduce the amount of experienced (but tetchy) advice available.
The Darwinian element might accelerate climbing evolution though - sort of a primordial beginners' soup

In reply to CJD:
Agreed. Must be off putting if you're trying to get into climbing and the response to every question is either "Troll" or "Search the forums, stupid".

In reply to Ridge:

Good lord. Then how will they cope with numb fingers and skint knuckles?

In reply to Tiggs:

I personally would not sign up to an older climbers forum.

In reply to CJD:

Dear C

That is a great idea as "experienced" climbers ask dumb question, then tell beginners how it should be.

Norrie

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

Surely that's one of the joys of climbing?

In reply to Al Evans:

Dear Al

Well as I am younger than you, neither will I.

Norrie

In reply to captain paranoia:



Is that beginner as in new to the forum or new to climbing?

In reply to Al Evans:

Can't interest you in a Saga holiday then, Al?

In reply to Horse: New to climbing, surely. They have L plates for being new to the forums.

In reply to Al Evans: Why not Al? Maybe it feels the same whether its about age or gender, like ghettoisation.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
No thanks.
Not a great fan of girls clubs...surely equality is inclusive?
Wouldn't join the Pinnacle or the girlie surgeons club for the same reason...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Go the whole hog and limit posting/reading preferences to posters registered as women... Then I couldn't care less 'cause I won't be able to see the threads and get curious.

<Cue Satori MkI MkII etc.>

In reply to SecretSquirrel/Mick Ryan:


In what way are a new woman climber's needs different from a new climber's needs? Discuss...

I'm against the Women's Forum idea, too - Secret Squirrel has some particularly good points about thread duplication and general confusion.
I think if you put up a 'Women's Forum' it would be used, if only by new people to start with - and that that use would spread to older forum members because of the points S.S. mentions. And you might regard that increased use as 'success', but really for women who climb it would be a retrograde step because we would again be being herded into our own little ghetto.

Beginner's questions - Rocktalk or perhaps a new beginners' forum.
Women's experiences of climbing - Rocktalk, Down the Pub, Chatroom...
We're spoilt for choice already, and I can't think of a topic that wouldn't fit into at least one of the current categories.

If you seriously think newcomers are too scared to post - and I have some sympathy with that, having lurked for a long time - how about a 'Guaranteed no flaming' forum (icon: harps and halos, perhaps?) from which any posts remotely hostile can be instantly banished?

In reply to Horse:


New to climbing. I'd suggest that it has a special 'start new thread' form that suggests a forum and FAQ search first, with the appropriate search dialogue boxes sitting there on the form, ready to fill in, rather than simply saying 'have you thought about doing a search?'.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Not my thing either. Just because.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Dear M

Nice can of worms. Blimey ! ask an innocent question and see what happens.

However I have two Qs?

1. If there was already a "women's forum" would this thread have appeared there, or more properly here for open discussion - and thereby, is the case against a women's forum not proven?

2. Would two forums (forae?), one for contankerous curmudgeons and one for Scots blokes (no sexism here!!), not be better as a single forum.

Iain

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: The idea that a women's forum might provide a less 'intimidating' environment for women is a sad indictment of the forum as a whole. The 'intimidating' is not gender specific it affects all posters male and female. Might it not be better to address the abusive posts of some of our so-called 'names' and the way they abuse other posters on the pre-text of 'hardness, experience and generally knowing better than anyone else when it comes to climbing'. That's where the problem lies not with the need to provide 'girlies' with a haven.

Btw - you still haven't answered CJD's earlier question, (just in case you forgot, like).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick

no Woperson forum! Too PC! How would you check the bona fides of a registered users stated sex? compulsory urine test?
We all know women have their own preoccupations, issues etc but so do blokes! We live together so why create barriers between the sexes, surely we must reduce them from both perspectives. Gender only forums will breed introspection and mistrust

Yours

A non sexist

In reply to Tiggs: Now THAT'S an idea! A random abuse forum - bit like Monty Python's Ministry of Arguments?
People who know nothing (or next to nothing) about their sparring partners can hurl abusive aggressive insults to their bile duct's content. No need for banning or censoring - legalize it, then it will lose its appeal

In reply to Marc C: LoL! Genius Marc genius. They would have to register specifically for that forum and meet the required standards - say the 'five bob' for beginners and the 'ten bob' for the experienced pugilists.....

In reply to Tiggs: I met Mick yesterday (for the first time) and he's a real gentleman (even gave me discount off the Rock+Run Kendal Mint Cake flavoured condoms) and I'm sure his idea of a Women's Forum is noble and well-intentioned. I suggested it be similar to Women's Hour on Radio 4 - maybe a two-hour slot weekly, where women could talk about knitting patterns for balaclavas for male partners, high-energy cake recipes for the Norrie Muir in their life, massage techniques to soothe their weary rock warriors' aching limbs, and how to tailor their bedroom performance to have some climbing cross-training benefit.

In reply to Tiggs: You are a total w*nker, I climb ten million times harder than you, knobhead

UKC Warning: This registered user hasn't paid his abuse membership, so ignore his post - it's illegal and he will be receiving a warning email. If he persists in random abuse - without paying his membership fee - he will be struck off (Alan, Nick, Mick, Andy).

In reply to Marc C: So! Its your flippin' fault is it - you snake in sheeps clothing.......

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I think Ive found what your looking for Mick or is it Michelle now??

Good Luck

Pacific x

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_reassignment

In reply to Marc C: In the real abuse forum not paying your membership would mean you wouldn't be able to post at all. Anyway you've got the knob, not me.... You climb a lot harder than I do anyway, so that post is a bit of a waste of bandwidth.

In reply to Tiggs: Perhaps I did plant the idea in young Michael's head But you have to understand I come from an older generation where the only role of women in climbing was...um...well, frankly, there wasn't one. Call me an old chauvinist pig, but I still wince when I see a woman (and practically naked at that!) bouldering (I think that's what it's called).

In reply to Marc C: You would be an ideal candidate for the Older Climber's Forum.....

In reply to Tiggs: Now now dear lady, don't get your pretty little head all steamed up. I suggest you cool down...and what better way of relieving tension than baking a nice cake for the menfolk in your life..


(Marc C now attempts to break the world land-speed record)

In reply to Tiggs: No Not the urine-scented dusty lounge where dribbling men with names like Tim, Al and Sutty stare at a wall all day muttering 'Now when I was at Death Bivouac...' ? I'm too young for that! I've got the body of an 18 year-old....(don't reply with 'yes, under the floorboards in your owl loft')

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I scrolled down reading as much as I could.

Can anyone answer me the following.

Has Mick listened to what the women have to say?

Was there a sponsor lined up?

Are you likely to get a womens forum wether you like it or not?

In reply to Marc C:

Well, I there could be a belay-bunnies forum. Totally non-sexist of course; and for people who don't want to lead. Top-ropers would find a home there too.
These people are amongst the worst discriminated against in the climbing world and deserve a place of their own where they can discuss the merits of stress-free climbing without being picked on by people who look down on them - literally.

In reply to Fawksey: I see you've heard the scurrilous and totally untrue rumour that the women's forum will be sponsored by Figleaves.com?

In reply to Alison Stockwell: I second that...I mean, top belay it...well you know what I mean

In reply to Fawksey:

No,
No - he hasn't answered CJD's question yet.
Don't know.

In reply to Alison Stockwell: would that include poodles, I mean groupies getting stoned laying near boulders?

In reply to Fawksey:

Did you say sponsor? A gear manufacturer? Ah well, in that case....

What a splendid idea! I will volunteer myself for lots of free gear, trips etc.

In reply to Fawksey:

I suppose so. I don't see why they would really need to climb at all. Just waft around near climbers from time to time.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

you lady have had more than enough already

In reply to Fawksey: trips that is, climbing

In reply to Alison Stockwell: Mick's denied there's a sponsor.....

In reply to Fawksey:

More than enough what? I have had no booze at all this evening and the only free gear I ever got was a Garmin Etrex that I won in a comp. Well and a buff that I won adventure racing but I was the only competitor in my class. I got given a biro yesterday too but that doesn't count as gear.

In reply to Fawksey:


Well only Mick would know that. I can assure you to the best of my knowledge he has read every post.....not listened.....every post would have to be a mini iPodcast for that....and that my dear friend would cost big time.

Oh and there were lots of men posting too. Remember the suggestion wasn't some segragated womens only forum it would be open to all.



I've alreday said no about three times. But there could be.



Jeez man.....after all the negative responses and then I have to take all this to the owners of the site. Goodness Fawskey....get a grip.

Mick

P.S., Marc it was raining I had to drive past, apart from that I was knackered.

In reply to Tiggs:


Denied. I said no!

In reply to Fawksey:

Ah trips. Well they aren't all climbing. Some of them are hiking or scrambling.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

thanks, you know.

just, like, thanks for listening.

cheers for replying to my question, though.

No, really.

<sighs>

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Yes, it was raining when we were there - and I was a little tired after completing the Bob Graham Round the previous day

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Apologies for the inexactness.

This is what you said exactly

by - Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com on - 11:59 Mon - mickryansclimbingblog.blogspot.com/
In reply to Derbyshire Ben:
Non of the forums are directly sponsored. The very existance of this site however is funded in part by adverts. No adverts, no site, no forums.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'm cynical, so the only reason I can see for a Women's Forum would be for targetting woman-specific advertising at that forum...

In reply to Dominion:

Me too. Especially as he's just come back from a gear show that had female only manufacturers there.

It's a business. It has to make money from advertising. I'm sure female gear is a big money spinner for the gear makers.

In the big picture of life will it make any difference to our lives if there was a female forum?

If the money keeps coming in and the forums keep running, who cares?

Bob

In reply to Alison Stockwell:


Top-ropers already have two perfectly good options on this forum: 1. Learn to climb properly and as part of a normal climbing team (even as a second), or 2. Log off and never visit again if they insist on having nothing to do with proper climbing.

In reply to bob champion:



me! it's just f*cking patronising!

In reply to Fiend:

Good to see you back on message after last weeks aberration

In reply to Fiend:


Or 3) Continue pre-practicing and then leading cutting edge climbs that are not currently onsightable by anyone at the present time...

In reply to CJD:

Dear C

Calm down, you will ruin your mascara.

Norrie

In reply to bob champion: Why should you, you're a f*cking bloke and it doesn't affect you, but I care at what on the face of it appears to be a clear attempt to marginalise and ghettoise one section of contributors of this forum for no other reason than to draw in more advertisers. Don't get me wrong I understand the commercial realities but there are female gear suppliers advertising on the forum already. The female forum is a ploy to attract advertisers and just that, it offers no real benefits to women climbers. Why can't Mick be up front at the outset and say we need to draw in these advertisers, this is how we propose to do it, instead of playing us for fools. Its downright insulting and patronising.

In reply to Tiggs:

yay, someone who sees where I'm coming from.

Mick still hasn't answered me.

In reply to Horse:

Top-roping sports climbs is also an abomination!

In reply to Norrie Muir: And you can stick your ice axe where the sun don't shine, mate!

In reply to Tiggs:

Go Tiggs!

In reply to CJD: I've noticed.

In reply to CJD:

Is it not patronising for beginners to have their own forum?

Are they not good enough to join the other forums?

Bob

In reply to Tiggs:

should I email him? would that be easier?

In reply to CJD:

Thank you, someone needed to say it a bit more strongly! Agree completely.

In reply to Tiggs:

I think it's a bit OTT to say he's making a ghetto for women.

If it comes in and you don't like it, ignore it.

Bob

In reply to Tiggs: Well said to you as well.

In reply to bob champion:

a noob forum is not the same as marginalising a lot of your users on the basis of gender. a newbie forum is a space for people to ask questions that they might be nervous of asking otherwise - why, using that logic/reasoning, do women need a separate forum?

In reply to Tiggs:

Dear Tiggs

I always do that, it can be dangerous to winter climb where the sun shines - it can cause the ice to fall off. I hope you do the same. You already know that.

Norrie

In reply to alicia:

I'm still clinging to some hope that he's trolling madly and pissing himself laughing at home.

In reply to CJD:

Maybe Mick is doing some banners for some advertisers, gratis, so that he can clinch the deal so that money will come in and UKC can pay the bills so that CJD can keep posting. Maybe he is trying to go through a back log of articles that some people have kindly contributed.


Jeez....some people....clueless.

Mick

In reply to CJD:

It's a money spinner.

If there was no money coming in and the website closed would you care what catergories were on the forum. If it meant it kept going.

As I said earlier, he got his opening bid wrong.

You wouldn't say no to the possibility of cheap gear from female only advertisers, would you?

Bob

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I must have asked about five times! You've managed to respond to other posters!

you are so sitting at home/the lakes/wherever pissing yourself laughing aren't you...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Or maybe he is drinking beer and watching Friends



<joke>

In reply to Tiggs:

absolute bollox

In reply to bob champion: It is by no means OTT, that is exactly what it is a ghetto in the guise of 'special interest/need'.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: So the real reason is?

In reply to marie:


I'm drinking tea and I've never had a TV.

If I did have it would of course me Emmerdale.

In reply to bob champion:

no shit sherlock.


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hello I'm CJD and I'm five years old. I clearly don't understand how commercial ventures work. FFs.


yes I would! it's bullshit, making excuses for marginalising women by offering them pretty things cheap! (or rather using such curious ploys to attract advertising) for god's sake!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Emmerdale finished at 7.30pm

In reply to Tiggs:

yeah Mick answer the question!

In reply to CJD:

You seem to be getting worked up - go and punch one of the little ones downstairs

In reply to Glyn Jones:

don't tempt me.

In reply to Tiggs:

I think you're taking it too personally.

It's an internet site. No more no less.

We'll all go back to the real world tomorrow. working and paying bills. This has no real relevance. It's just something to waste time on.

Hardly making a ghetto for women in general.

Bob

In reply to bob champion:

allow little things to happen without protesting about it, and all of a sudden bigger things are happening and nobody's listening...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Dear Mick

You should just go ahead with the forum and see if the usual suspects (not all women) post on it. I doubt they will resist posting on it, if they don't, then new registered users will increase.

Norrie

In reply to bob champion: Hey, didn't you know 'the personal is political' always....

In reply to CJD:

Depending on how worked up you really are, if they set up such a forum we could get quite creative with the 'civil disobedience'...(evil grin)

In reply to CJD: Absolutely, mind you he's not listening now, or answering for that matter....

In reply to bob champion:


Jeez Bob....the going to work is true....but the internet has total relevance to your 'real' life and many others.

It is not 'virtual' it's real.

In reply to Tiggs:

hah, oh yes he is.

In reply to kamala: <knowing wink>

Unless its female access only the cross-dressing bloke climbers will always be in there...

In reply to CJD & Tiggs

It's just a web site.

Bob

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I think it's time you went back to 9-5 Mick.

Too much radiation of your monitor is affecting you!

Bob