UKH

Stanage Popular 

Walking from my house I spotted the following... c@#ts

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eiawyaqxin04bgg/IMG_20200502_180850_7.jpg?dl=0

...if the crags were busy with walkers and climbers this would be a lot less likely. Hopefully this doesn't help elsewhere

Also 5 bottles and a can had been chucked off the top of Goliath's Groove (HVS 5a) sadly didn't have space to carry them home today 😠

Whereabouts is the photo?

outside Robin Hood's Cave Gully (D) just outside the entrance

Ugh, f*ck. Sorry to hear that. Some f*cking idiots at work.

In a 1000 years time it will be hailed as cave art and held in high esteem. It's all a matter of perspective.

The elephant is fun.

We have a certain view of the value of the crag, others will see it very differently. The people responsible might ask why they shouldn’t carve the rocks where we climb?  Was Redhead’s cartoon on Cloggy vandalism or art? We will probably never agree with who did this but equally they may never agree with the impact we have in terms of wear and tear on the landscape.

What, you think we should be climbing to stop people carving into the rock, what an odd suggestion, you do realise that we are not climbing to help prevent people dieing.
I wonder if in 8000 years and guidebooks have withered to dust and all climbing routes are forgotten, if whatever civilisation is around then will look at those carvings with interest and consider them worth protecting, much like the carvings on the Langdale boulders.

I doubt it.  The quality of the carving is shite, and is accompanied by 'S5' carvings - local tw*ts who think they're gangsters.  There is also a lot of freshly smashed rock around Mississippi Buttress, and litter everywhere - mainly plastic bottles, though beer bottles as well.  I guess this is what happens when the public are told not to go there - the animals take over.

My next trip will see me taken a few bags to fill up with rubbish, and my personal view is that the place needs traffic to deter the 'artists'.

Have you seen the state of some of the cave art that is lauded around the world? Hardly Monet standards. Looking at it closer I enjoyed the Nature Boys using a tree to represent the A. 

Can't see any S5 tags in your picture.

Irrespective of how the culprits may view their work, I'm pretty certain that the Peak District National Park - who own the crag - will not see these carvings as responsible recreation (as they do with climbing). I have spent several days ridding Stanage of graffiti in the past few years, and I find it saddening to see more of it.

In reply to OnlineClimber:

Thanks for bringing this to our attention OnlineClimber. I doubt that there is much that can be done now but I'll let the Stanage warden and others know. As you say, it's going to be hard to keep tabs on any kinds of antisocial behaviour happening in rural areas during the current restrictions.

Andy

BMC Peak Area Chair

No - is the short answer, guilty of a click bait title - yes,

This is because it makes me really angry when people travel to places of beauty then decide to add graffiti or leave rubbish and it spoils the experience. Luckily, as perhaps as others will realise, this sort of thing is rare when there are plenty of people around to self police and climbers are generally very good at keeping the crags clean.

I find it strange that some replies are finding justification for vandalism, would they be happy if i went to the bottom and created my own art bashing off some holds, spray painting or chipping my name at the bottom of my favourite route or on the side of their house, these are flawed arguments. There is no way mindless vandalism can be justified in any way in the current modern world. Thankfully like climbing ethics of pegs being bashed into stuff things have evolved and a like for like comparison is not a justification.

it was in the original un edited post, it is on the opposite wall

How does the use of bolts tie in with your comment that "things have evolved"? Their use isn't limited to scruffy little quarries; some of the most dramatic and beautiful rock faces in the country  have always been seen as legitimate environments for bolting. 

Perhaps you've seen it close up. From the posted image, and to my untrained eye, the elephant looks pretty competently done. Much better than I could do.

A lot of the posts so far seem to assume that Stanage is "our" bit of the natural environment. It's OK for us to smear the whole crag with alkaline chalk, polish the original grain of the rock to a sheen, denude the base of the crag of its natural vegetation, even lever off bits of the crag with a car jack (or is that fake news?). but not OK for others to use it as a canvas for their art?

I'd prefer it hadn't been done, but I'm not sure we should be claiming the high ground here.

Martin

Chalk washes off, yes some climbers have excessively chalked stuff and it looks unsightly and rightly so they have been called out. Yes we polish the rocks in our use just as anyone walking wears the environment on the top path, climbing and walking however are not mindless acts of vandalism, one does not justify the other. Would you be happy if we went to a situation were everyone can 'enjoy' the natural environment as use it as they see fit. Soon it wouldn't be so natural, it is a fallacy.

So what's natural about bolts?

Difficult: as a climber my perspective could be seen as biased or relative to my chosen actively.  However  bolting has become widespread and even encouraged by some local authorities. As a society there has not been an outcry against it, perhaps there should?  As far as i can tell however is that graffiti is generally not a socially acceptable norm. Hopefully that answers your question?

Bolts, in some environments and in some contexts, are seen as socially acceptable. Hence there being no outcry when many limestone quarries are bolted but rage at the thought of bolts on classic trad crags.

Grafiti, in some environments and in some contexts, are seen as socially acceptable. Hence Banksy's work fetching high prices but fines in place for mindless spray painting.

It just happens that Stanage is one of the environments in which neither bolts nor grafiti is welcome, and rightly so, although it would be interesting to see the reaction were a classic Banksy creation to be added to the smooth face of Marble Wall.

This is not strictly true. There was a period in the late '60s/early '70s, between the era of artificial climbing and the invention of "sport" climbing, when the use of pegs and bolts on the faces to which you refer was being hotly debated. And for a short time, there was actually quite a strong effort to remove metal from the crags. That all went tits up with the importing of "sport" climbing from France.

I'm not too clued up about the history of limestone climbing.  I just assumed bolts were always "allowed" on Yorkshire limestone.Was there a lull in the development of Malham etc in this period when their use was being contested? 

This is off-topic but, since you lay it on thick here, I'll bite: I don't think anybody would ever defend levering off bits the crag with a car jack - do you?

I guess you might be referring to the alleged incident on Right Unconquerable here? Well, since you are repeating the story, you tell us: is it fake news, or not? Were you there? The most likely explanation for that damage is that the flake broke when a friend was fallen on.

Not sure how we got from vandalism to bolting but for what it's worth our local Wharncliffe crag has become our regular exercise walk for now. What we have noticed is that gangs of young people are using the crags as a place to meet as in the towns they are being split up due to the distancing rules.

I'm not one to gang up on the youth of today, they've every right to hang out in normal conditions and no doubt most of them are respectful. There is however a huge amount of broken glass and litter at the base of the crags where it's been tossed off the top. Langsett area just on the other side of the valley has bbq trays thrown in the river and carrier bags of rubbish left on the river bank.

Short version, I've never known it this bad, what is wrong with people?

The step from vandalism to bolting was a short one: the OP was unhappy that our crags weren't being left in their natural state by vandals and I pointed out that leaving bolts on a crag was not leaving it in its natural state.

""Take only photographs , leave only bolts"  doesn't have the same sound to it.

Simple: some people see bolting as vandalism. Both are human modification of the natural environment that some people feel should not be modified.

I don't particularly care for it either.

I certainly wasn't there. It was a story that gained some credence at the time, but not without doubting voices. I certainly wouldn't condone it. 

Either way though, the damage to Right Unconquerable was almost certainly done by climbers, and is unsightly. I just think we should be wary of the line of argument that seems to assume that it's our crag, and the damage we do as climbers is to be self-policed by climbers, but any damage done by non-climbers is unacceptable. 

Now, if we were talking about crags owned by climbers (ie the BMC) that would be different.

Martin

I myself don't buy (or make) that argument; I don't know why you assume that others do.

The general objective should be to minimize the effect - to the rest of the planet - of any activities we engage in.

Beyond that, I think there is an obvious difference between intentional damage such as the scratched graffiti mentioned above, as opposed to unintentional 'wear-and-tear.' (We should clearly seek to minimize the latter, of course.)

I don't see any difference at all. This has nothing to do with 'ownership' in my opinion; rather, it's about good stewardship.

This is not a facetious queation at all, Rob, but do you think it was their intention to cause "damage" to the crag?

There's a venue near me , an old railway cutting, with substantial amounts of rock carving done by one or two local people who seem fairly adept with a hammer and chisel.

The general reaction by the local population is one of approval, a far cry fom the sort of response evoked by the flytipping evident in the same location. The carvings have been featured in the local paper and there is genuine interest  in finding out who the sculptor is/are, and not with a view to criticising them at all.

Yes, on the big central wall there was a hiatus from the sixties (the era of pegs and aid climbs) for about 15 years, until the early 80's , when the sport climbing "revolution" got under way. During that intervening period, aid was removed from routes on the wings and harder new trad routes were added also on the wings.

Are you some sort of troll? This thread stinks of nimbyism. I spend most of my climbing, these days, on industrial wasteland of one age or another. Some of the quarries are "cleaned" by levering off rock with a crowbar. Nearby Cheddar gorge is regularly stripped of vegetation and any rock that might be loose. It's all a bit snowflakey in the time of corona.

Personally I think the little elephant should now be protected as a piece of corona art.

And how would you propose to protect it? Are you thinking of a perspex screen, perhaps?

Fact is: it's not going anywhere - to get rid of it would further damage the rock - so people will be looking at it for a long, long time. In that respect, pity it's such poor-quality work.

Just gently ruin it so the advertisement quality is lowered - I suggest over scratching "gavin 4 tracey 4 ever" 

I lived in a place at the centre of fly posting wars which were violent and messy.  The problem was solved by the local council adding "cancelled" notices and randomly changing the dates on the posters every morning 'til they went away.

"Poor quality" is a difficult assessment to make in the world of art, though. I actually think the elephant shows a bit of talent.

Nah, just a big sign "Do not climb here"

Couldn't agree more.

So you're suggesting climbers, or is it everyone, should be allowed outside, because of the reckless acts of a few wankers.

And how do you know someone else would have

1. been there at the time.
2. would have prevented it happening

This just sounds daft.

No need to hack at the rock. Just apply the same method of dealing with chipped holds. Gather some sand from the foot of the crag, make a little cement and fill in the grooves. Obviously, it would need some skill - maybe the perp when he's doing community service?

Possibly, but there's a time and a place for carved elephants. Would it be OK to cut one on the side of Westminster Abbey, say?

Not from my point of view. But if Banksy decided to do it you can bet the grovelling art gurus and critics would find a reason to validate it as art and give it a concomitant price tag.

Community service for what offence?

I don't recall Simon Armitage feeling the weight of the law for the verses he had inscribed all over West Yorkshire. Is there a different set of laws for Poet Laureates?

As a biologist and climber from Germany I find the UK term "gardening" for destroying the often very vulnerable vegetation on rocky outcrops rather cynical and off-putting.

Actually, many of the concerted "gardening" or "crag revival" efforts could land you in jail over here.

Yes, we do damage to the environment we claim to love.

As for the rock art, my favourite punishment would be to have the motive forcibly tattoed on the forehead of the artist*.

I refrain from suggesting using a branding iron as I am afraid of the dislikes**.

CB

* not really

** also not really

You raise some good points.

Where a crag/ route has been neglected through lack of popularity and nature has begun to reclaim the rock then there may be a case for leaving it alone. People might argue differently about neglect as a result of government imposed restrictions.

As for desecrators of the rock, if you favour in-kind punishments for engravers then you presumably approve of similar justice being doled out to bolters?

Not really, bolting serves a valid purpose, and is part of the climbing tradition in many regions. I climb both sport and trad, and don't accept that trad is somehow "ethically" (what a grandiose word!) superior.

Of course I would not argue to bolt crags where there is a "no bolts" tradition, but blanket bans for entire regions is like allowing only breast stroke in a swimming pool and banning front crawl.

CB

Flippin Eck John Redwood's been there. 

How about vandalism for a start? Followed by being criminally untalented/unoriginal, carrying an offensive attitude, dragging their knuckles in a manner liable to cause alarm etc etc.

I've read and enjoyed a few of his prose books and his TV features. He comes across as a genuinely nice, interesting and talented guy. I'm not usually a poetry person so can't really make much of the Stanza Stones. I'd take a long walk to go and check a few of them out though. As for Natureboy's 'work' I'd walk a long way to avoid it. It's just poorly executed scrawled graffiti in the wrong place. By the way, Banksy has originality and talent.That's why his work has value to many people.