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Should you go climbing

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 SteveX 21 Mar 2020

Well no, not really.

22
 ianstevens 21 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

Yes

18
 Andy Moles 21 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

Was there really any need to start yet another thread?

1
 SteveX 21 Mar 2020
In reply to Andy Moles:

Totally different, yes you can go climbing, and the government would have to pass a law to ban it, but they have other things on their plate at the moment. Therefore as said, should people climb in the current situation.

4
 LukeyG 21 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

It’s hardly essential travel only though is it unless your fortune enough to be able to walk to your local crag. More it’s just being selfish Considering the current situation.

4
 David Riley 21 Mar 2020
In reply to LukeyG:

Why is travel a problem ?

10
 Andy Moles 21 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

It's not totally different, the 'Is climbing banned' thread has been entirely this discussion.

 Graeme G 21 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

If you crash you’ll need NHS resources. Which could be better used elsewhere.

5
 David Riley 21 Mar 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

That's not likely enough for consideration.

10
 SteveX 21 Mar 2020
In reply to Andy Moles:

What are you, the thread police, if Alan wants to delete the thread he can, until then, bug out.

16
In reply to SteveX:

> What are you, the thread police, if Alan wants to delete the thread he can, until then, bug out.

Steve, whilst I agree with your post, to be fair to Andy there is a thread covering most of this. Join in, it's loads of fun! 

 Andy Moles 21 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

What Stuart said. Calm down, it's pretty normal to point out when someone starts a thread on a topic that's already running.

In reply to David Riley:

> Why is travel a problem ?

Seriously?

Because people who are asymptomatic or who are infected, but yet to show symptoms could be spreading the disease from an infected area to a non infected area.

People have to travel for work or to look after elderly family etc. and that is probably necessary. Travelling long distances for leisure activities is probably not really vital at the moment.

 mark s 21 Mar 2020
In reply to The Jazz Butcher:

currently around the roaches we have no reported cases, who knows if people travel from infected areas. they just have to make sure they are away from other people.

3
 David Riley 21 Mar 2020
In reply to The Jazz Butcher:

Travelling long distances for leisure activities is not really vital at any time.  Things don't have to be vital. Just not cause significant problems.

I am planning to drive to Stanage and run along it, this afternoon.  As long as I keep 2m from people, I can't see any problem.  I hope others will be doing the same and say hello.

I'd not looked at the similar thread.

4
 Graeme G 21 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

So why did you ask the question?

 David Riley 21 Mar 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

I wondered why people thought sitting alone in a car was a problem.

 Ciro 21 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

> That's not likely enough for consideration.

It might not be likely for you as an individual, but if everyone takes that line we will have the same numbers of people entering A&E for non-virus related issues as we normally do.

If we all stop doing what we normally do, we will reduce the numbers, and so free up NHS resource for fighting the pandemic.

The death rate in this country is climbing faster than it did in Italy - the NHS is underfunded and about to be utterly swamped.

 David Riley 21 Mar 2020
In reply to Ciro:

That does not make sense.

The risk of NHS involvement through being in a car is probably less than for any of the alternative activities :  gardening, cooking, diy, cycling, horse riding, running, the work I do, or indeed eating and complete inactivity.

5
 Graeme G 21 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

Fair do’s. I drove 200 miles yesterday. Apart from the risk of crashing I agree the risk was minimal.

3
 Ciro 21 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

> That does not make sense.

> The risk of NHS involvement through being in a car is probably less than for any of the alternative activities :  gardening, cooking, diy, cycling, horse riding, running, the work I do, or indeed eating and complete inactivity.

Are you trolling?

You should definitely also cut out the cycling (now banned in Spain) and horse riding too. 

A sedentary life is a long term health risk, not a short term one.

In reply to Ciro:

It isn't sensible to be sedentary, but running and walking are the safest activities to continue with.

 Martin Bennett 21 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

No.

1
 Ciro 21 Mar 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It isn't sensible to be sedentary, but running and walking are the safest activities to continue with.

If you live in the middle of nowhere absolutely.

Otherwise yoga, aerobics, tai chi, turbo trainer, suspension trainer, fingerboard, etc. can keep you active without the risk of spreading the virus. 

 David Riley 21 Mar 2020

The Peak District was very busy today.  Despite the cold wind.  Apart from car sharing and climbing together, with awareness, little risk of transmission.  Lots of cyclists in the way.  But none troubling the NHS that I was aware of.

12
 Ciro 21 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

> The Peak District was very busy today.  Despite the cold wind.  Apart from car sharing and climbing together, with awareness, little risk of transmission.  Lots of cyclists in the way.  But none troubling the NHS that I was aware of.

The lack of awareness is astonishing... We'll probably wonder why we ended up with one of the highest death rates on the planet. 🤦‍♂️

2
 SteveX 21 Mar 2020
In reply to Andy Moles:

The other thread is just people justifying why they are special and they can carry on as they wish, its all the others who are foolish.
The terrifying thing is that when this is all over we have to deal with the real big issue, Climate Change. Frankly if we are not prepared to moderate our behaviour when thousands of people are dieing relatively close by in Italy and Spain, there is zero chance of us taking action regarding climate change.

Disclaimer, I have had two foreign climbing trips this year so far, so I am as bad as the rest, but jeepers something needs to be done.

1
In reply to Ciro:

I can see why people think climbing is an issue. But are you suggesting that walking and running from your house are not ok any more, unless it’s in a rural / isolated area? Apologies if I have  misunderstood. 

 Andy Moles 22 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

> The other thread is just people justifying why they are special and they can carry on as they wish, its all the others who are foolish.

Well, given the topic is whether we should go climbing, there wouldn't be any discussion at all if everyone's answer was a straightforward 'no'.

> ...there is zero chance of us taking action regarding climate change.

Sadly I feel like we've known this for a long time...but on a positive note, if this is making you re-evaluate your choices, maybe it will for others too.

 Ciro 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Misha:

> I can see why people think climbing is an issue. But are you suggesting that walking and running from your house are not ok any more, unless it’s in a rural / isolated area? Apologies if I have  misunderstood. 

If we all go running in cities this week, more people will die in two weeks time than if we stay indoors.

In Spain, you can be fined for it. Why wait for our government to catch up?

1
 Duncan Bourne 22 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

Climbing? Well it depends. Honeypot areas with lots of people I would probably say no. Isolated areas like Mam Tor (climbing not walking. Nobody wants to climb on Mam Tor) then probably ok.

Think that where you are putting your hands someone else may have or may will put there hands there possible before the 12 hours don't touch it time is up.

Walking is fine if you are not in a big group as is cycling. If you are more than 2 metres away from people and not touching stuff you are not passing it on.

And you are seriously less liable to catch it than you are driving to several supermarkets to find bog roll and que up to buy it.

If you go to the hills just don't stay there and place an additional load on local hospitals.

4
 Luke_92 22 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

Llanberis Mountain Rescue called out to Cyrn Las, where apparently a team had come up from Surrey to climb Main Wall. The leader didn't place any gear, and fell 20m (wow!) according to the Mountain Rescue post. Required multiple helicopter trips, a team of 6+ from various organisations, and god knows how much money spent.

This is why climbing is a bad idea right now. 

 Duncan Bourne 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Ciro:

> If we all go running in cities this week, more people will die in two weeks time than if we stay indoors.

How do you figure that out if you are keeping 2 meter distance?

Personally I prefer cycling as you can keep a greater distance

You are more likey to get it when you go to the supermarket

Post edited at 08:10
1
 Duncan Bourne 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Luke_92:

That is a good point.

In reply to Ciro:

> If we all go running in cities this week, more people will die in two weeks time than if we stay indoors.

Is that actually the case?  People will choose to go over an 18 hour ish period and very few of the population are actually runners.  Therefore the city streets should be quiet and it should be possible to do so without coming within 2m of someone.

2
 Ciro 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Is that actually the case?  People will choose to go over an 18 hour ish period and very few of the population are actually runners.  Therefore the city streets should be quiet and it should be possible to do so without coming within 2m of someone.

If everyone else locks down, I'll be OK to go out?

In reply to Ciro:

> If everyone else locks down, I'll be OK to go out?

No.  If each of us only goes out for the time it takes to go for a short walk or run in the immediate area, let's say 30 minutes per day, it'll be quiet enough for everyone to do so maintaining 2m distancing.

If it's an option to build that into another reason to go out, e.g. to the shop, all the better.  Take a rucksack and run to the supermarket and back, then you don't need to go out twice.

And if you're normally an early bird/night owl runner all the better.  If you go at 3am you won't meet anybody.

Post edited at 09:10
1
 David Riley 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Ciro:

It's a shame we're not being more intelligent about this.   It would be better if people could learn what is spreading and what is not.
Two metres apart outside is ok.   Door handles are not.   We need all people to think.
The dangers seem to me to be touching check-outs in food stores, then your eyes or mouth before washing hands. The home delivery river at the door.   The handles of milk bottles in your fridge with covid from shelf stackers.
But we should be organizing group activities.   Infection safe and 'make aware' parkrun would have been such a good thing.

3
 Lemony 22 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

Two metres apart is a recommendation to limit the spread, it isn't an absolute. A crowd of runners two metres apart running through the same space in quick succession whilst breathing heavily seems like a bad idea to me.

 David Riley 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Lemony:

Probably right.   So point it out to everyone and work out a fix.

In reply to David Riley:

The fix for the likes of Parkrun is to stop for now and invididuals to run on their own in different places at different times.  Which is what they've done.

 AlanLittle 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Luke_92:

> Llanberis Mountain Rescue called out to Cyrn Las

I hope the idiot is meeting with the contempt s/he deserves in Ysbyty Gwynedd

3
 Tom V 22 Mar 2020
In reply to AlanLittle:

I don't think that individual is worth any more or less contempt than any other who went to the Pass yesterday, or the Roaches etc.

 Enty 22 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

How about showing some respect to those throwing 20 hour shifts in at the hospital and don't even have time to go shopping never mind a f*cking run along Stanage.

E

4
In reply to Tom V:

> I don't think that individual is worth any more or less contempt than any other who went to the Pass yesterday, or the Roaches etc.

Definitely more.  Top-roping on a single pitch crag was not likely to result in a hospital visit.

1
 Ciro 22 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

> It's a shame we're not being more intelligent about this.   It would be better if people could learn what is spreading and what is not.

The experts, as far as I'm aware, have not ruled out aerosol transmission yet?

> Two metres apart outside is ok.   Door handles are not.   We need all people to think.

How is that 2m zone affected by a breeze?

How long do the particles remain suspended in one person's previous 2m zone before it's safe for someone else to walk into it?

The intelligent thing to do is adopt the precautionary principle unless and until we have concrete answers to all the variables.

> The dangers seem to me to be touching check-outs in food stores, then your eyes or mouth before washing hands. The home delivery river at the door.   The handles of milk bottles in your fridge with covid from shelf stackers.

These are certainly prominent dangers, or doesn't mean they are the only ones.

> But we should be organizing group activities.   Infection safe and 'make aware' parkrun would have been such a good thing.

The safest thing is complete lockdown. Group activities are by definition not safe. Most of us will engage in some form of group activity - work, schools, healthcare, shopping, etc., the more we can limit it to the essentials, the slower the spread will be and the less people will die.

 David Riley 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Ciro:

Thanks for your answer.  You do understand that I think the supermarket dangers are a million times those of the proposed 'safe parkrun' risk and that the messages from it could reduce the supermarket risk by 1000 or 10,000 ?

Post edited at 11:32
In reply to Ciro:

That is true from a pure COVID19 point of view, but it doesn't consider mental health.

There WILL be suicides from this.  Many of them.

In reply to Enty:

> How about showing some respect to those throwing 20 hour shifts in at the hospital and don't even have time to go shopping never mind a f*cking run along Stanage.

I think that is rather harsh. It is possible to have enormous respect for NHS workers while still wondering what one should or should not do personally. With so much government advice having been confusingly equivocal and with much media (not to mention social media) offering conflicting and rapidly changing advice, I think we are all wrestling with how we should go about our lives just now. Two weeks ago I was wondering whether I would still be able to fly to Jordan next week, a week ago I was wondering whether I should still go to the climbing wall, on Thursday I was wondering whether I should go to a quiet local crag, on Friday I was wondering whether I could drive a bit and go hillwalking on a quiet hill, and today I'm wondering whether I should go for a walk from my front door. 

 Ciro 22 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

> Thanks for your answer.  You do understand that I think the supermarket dangers are a million times those of the proposed 'safe parkrun' risk and that the messages from it could reduce the supermarket risk by 1000 or 10,000 ?

I'm not sure why you think the best way to reach shoppers with the message is through a park run though? Most people don't attend park runs, whereas most people do watch TV and browse social media. Seems to me like you're trying to engineer trainee for allowing social gatherings rather than actually looking for solutions to information spread?

The best place to modify shopping behaviour is in the shops.

In Spanish supermarkets now they are removing baskets, when you arrive you pick up a trolley, go to the cleaning station, they give you a wipe to clean it down, then a pair of gloves to wear while you shop, and then operate a one in/one out policy to limit the number of shopper in the store. 

As a result, people are talking it seriously and observing social distancing measures inside the shop.

Post edited at 12:03
 Ciro 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> That is true from a pure COVID19 point of view, but it doesn't consider mental health.

> There WILL be suicides from this.  Many of them.

That is a concern. As someone who suffers from depression myself, I'm not looking forward to the effects of lockdown.

 David Riley 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Ciro:

> In Spanish supermarkets now they are removing baskets, when you arrive you pick up a trolley, go to the cleaning station, they give you a wipe to clean it down, then a pair of gloves to wear while you shop, and then operate a one in/one out policy to limit the number of shopper in the store. 

Now you're talking.

Yes, I want to solve the problem of deprivation of social gatherings.  Best place - outside.

I would like to see people thinking of solutions, rather than apparently hating anyone making suggestions.

Deadeye 22 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

I think not, but

"3,594 logged climbs added in the last day"

 elsewhere 22 Mar 2020
In reply to David Riley:

> Now you're talking.

> Yes, I want to solve the problem of deprivation of social gatherings.  Best place - outside.

Working at home - everybody has elevenses at the same time. Either online or if possible in your respective gardens, balconies & street for conversation at a distance.

 neilh 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

And do not forget to wash your hands. 

In reply to Neil Williams:

> That is true from a pure COVID19 point of view, but it doesn't consider mental health.

To be honest, right now I am more concerned for the effects on my mental health than on my physical health from coronavirus.

1
 JHiley 22 Mar 2020
In reply to AlanLittle:

I don't think you should be shaming individuals, especially since they weren't actually disobeying the most widely published advice.

If you go onto the gov.uk website, click on "coronavirus (covid19) what you need to do" and link to the relevant sections there's nothing in there to rule out either driving to wales or climbing Main Wall. (though I agree they're both terrible ideas) Same from listening to BoJo's press conferences or reading the BMC advice. Sure there's an obscure press release that can only be found by those with the direct link, an emerging consensus against climbing at all on UKC and an established consensus that going to honeypot areas is bad, but not everyone hangs out on here all the time.

There's a huge difference between the view on here and some local social media and the perception of the situation prevailing among ordinary people. We need better national leadership.

 JHiley 22 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

On the plus side. SARS-CoV 2 is having a pretty strong opening round against climate change. In the long term perhaps this sort of collective action will provide the basis for a more effective strategy.

In reply to Ciro:

> That is a concern. As someone who suffers from depression myself, I'm not looking forward to the effects of lockdown.

This is why I'm quite angry with the people taking the mick today and yesterday and packing into busy tourist hotspots, because it will mean I'm not able to go for a short local walk or run on my own.

In reply to JHiley:

> On the plus side. SARS-CoV 2 is having a pretty strong opening round against climate change. In the long term perhaps this sort of collective action will provide the basis for a more effective strategy.

It will be interesting to see the effect on the world of seriously reduced carbon emissions over a few months at least.

In reply to JHiley:

> I don't think you should be shaming individuals, especially since they weren't actually disobeying the most widely published advice.

> If you go onto the gov.uk website, click on "coronavirus (covid19) what you need to do" and link to the relevant sections there's nothing in there to rule out either driving to wales or climbing Main Wall. (though I agree they're both terrible ideas) Same from listening to BoJo's press conferences or reading the BMC advice. Sure there's an obscure press release that can only be found by those with the direct link, an emerging consensus against climbing at all on UKC and an established consensus that going to honeypot areas is bad, but not everyone hangs out on here all the time.

> There's a huge difference between the view on here and some local social media and the perception of the situation prevailing among ordinary people. We need better national leadership.

Amen to that. 

 mauraman 22 Mar 2020
In reply to SteveX:

Well said

In reply to Ciro:

Hmm, that’s not what they said in the press conference today, walking (and I’d say by extension running and cycling) is fine even for the over 70s, as long as social distancing is maintained. Obviously if there are hordes of other people doing it then just wait and go later or the following day. They’ve gone a bit OTT in Italy and Spain, with France only slightly more reasonable, but that’s up to them. I’m glad the UK is taking a more balanced approach.

I live in a flat. Never mind climbing, if I’m not allowed to even go for a walk, my mental health would deteriorate rather quickly and there would be millions in the same boat. They were very conscious of that issue in the press conference.

At the end of the day, this will largely self regulate. Large chains are already starting to close their shops for example. The crowds around Snowdon are regrettable but if that issue persists I’m sure local measures could be taken, such as handing out chunky parking fines. 

Post edited at 18:30
1
In reply to Misha:

> Hmm, that’s not what they said in the press conference today, walking (and I’d say by extension running and cycling) is fine even for the over 70s as long as social distancing is maintained. Obviously if there are hordes of other people doing it then just wait and go later or the following day. They’ve gone a bit OTT in Italy and Spain but that’s up to them. 

They've gone OTT because they didn't clamp down early enough. Look at the countries who have levelled it off. We're behind the curve on this. 

Exercise to many people is a brisk 30 minute walk. Extending your interpretation of it is what will lead to enforced lockdown. 

 Tom V 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> To be honest, right now I am more concerned for the effects on my mental health than on my physical health from coronavirus.

To be blunt, Robert, that makes you one of the lucky ones.

In reply to David Riley:

Exactly. Living in a block of 400 flats,  my interaction with several doors each time I leave home or come back is higher risk than catching or passing on the virus outdoors. It’s a risk I can mitigate to an acceptable level by wearing gloves and washing my hands. The management company are doing daily disinfection but there are a lot of doors across 20 floors so there’s a limit to what they can do. We all need to do our bit but saying we shouldn’t go for a walk is just silly.

Your point about milk bottles is a very good one. Hypothetical as I’ve not seen any milk for days anyway! Same point applies to any food item - who knows how many people have handled it? We could wash milk bottles but doubt many people would do that because most people would consider the risk to be remote or wouldn’t even think of it. 

In reply to Tom V:

> To be blunt, Robert, that makes you one of the lucky ones.

Yes, but it is probably the rational position for many people, and in saying so I am not in any way playing down the very real risks for the less lucky.

In reply to Misha:

I do actually wonder if the higher spread in London and in large European cities compared with rural areas has to do with flat-dwelling and exactly what you say.  I can go out of my house, go for a run and come back without having hand contact with anything that any other person has touched.  A flat-dweller can't.  And they might, on coming home, have to pass someone within 2m, a house-dweller won't other than people who live there anyway.

Post edited at 18:57
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

As I’ve said elsewhere, the government has been wise to avoid a total lockdown for now because it’s a last resort and isn’t sustainable for long. I know it’s getting worse but look at the forecasts - this is early days. Leave the bazooka till you have to fire it because it won’t last long. 

Remains to be seen what happens when restrictions are lifted in China, Italy and so on (almost certainly a resurgence). We’re in it for the long term and need sustainable measures. Lock down is simply not sustainable, at least not without enormous social and economic damage which would in time lead to a lot of additional deaths.

Let’s put climbing aside. I think we agree that it’s ok and indeed beneficial to go for a walk or a run. Now Ciro seems to think it’s not, which I think is unreasonable. Clearly I’m not going to go for a walk or a run exactly 2m behind someone else. That would just be creepy. The distance is going to be more like dozens of metres, may be hundreds, depending where I go (even in central Birmingham where I live there are quiet places to go, as well as quiet times to do it now that the days are getting longer). May be in parts of London it’s going to be an issue but in most of the country it won’t be. One of the reasons I wouldn’t choose to live in London, virus or no virus!

In reply to Ciro:

The shopping trolly thing is very sensible. Not sure about 1 in 1 out as people start queueing in a large group outside, which is why they aren’t doing it here. They did it on the last day I was in Cham before fleeing and the queue outside was spaced out but then everyone was bunched up at the checkout queues because some people were buying so much. Just can’t win...

In reply to Misha:

> As I’ve said elsewhere, the government has been wise to avoid a total lockdown for now because it’s a last resort and isn’t sustainable for long. I know it’s getting worse but look at the forecasts - this is early days. Leave the bazooka till you have to fire it because it won’t last long. 

> Remains to be seen what happens when restrictions are lifted in China, Italy and so on (almost certainly a resurgence). We’re in it for the long term and need sustainable measures. Lock down is simply not sustainable, at least not without enormous social and economic damage which would in time lead to a lot of additional deaths.

> Let’s put climbing aside. I think we agree that it’s ok and indeed beneficial to go for a walk or a run. Now Ciro seems to think it’s not, which I think is unreasonable. Clearly I’m not going to go for a walk or a run exactly 2m behind someone else. That would just be creepy. The distance is going to be more like dozens of metres, may be hundreds, depending where I go (even in central Birmingham where I live there are quiet places to go, as well as quiet times to do it now that the days are getting longer). May be in parts of London it’s going to be an issue but in most of the country it won’t be. One of the reasons I wouldn’t choose to live in London, virus or no virus!

I'd agree with you on everything but the first part about it being early days. Our response is behind that of the worst case countries. We will get hit harder because we're making their mistakes and then some (can't think of a better word than mistake). The countries that are doing better clamped down, tested, traced and prepared for second wave. We don't have that luxury. 

In reply to JHiley:

To be fair, in today’s press conference they were urging people to stay in but also cognisant of physical and mental health and hence noted that going for a walk etc is ok if you observe the 2m thing. Then there was a specific question and answer regarding gatherings and that they are particularly concerned about smaller gatherings of 8-12 people such as in a family context. Johnson was also at pains to say that a forced lock down is an option but not something they want to bring in. The messaging is potentially confusing and not entirely black and white, though few things are in life.

I await further developments in the coming days. For this and other reasons, haven’t climbed since coming back from the UK on Tuesday and not planning on climbing in the next days either, despite being off work. However I wouldn’t judge those who do, unless they are numpties who have an accident.

1
In reply to Neil Williams:

That’s going to be part of it for sure, though most people don’t live in flats even in the cities (and not to the same extent as in France etc).  Currently with parents in Newmarket and been doing exactly what you said - going for a semi rural walk, just come across a few dog walkers in an hour or two. Supermarkets not that busy either, though still a bit empty (checkout lady said it was chaos first thing before Tesco brought in limits on how much you could buy). If it gets really bad, I’d certainly feel safer here!


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