UKH

What is considered the most efficient way of managing the rope from a hanging belay when block leading?? 

A bit of background, we are talking about bolted multi-pitch routes with normally double bolts at the belay station. I am creating a master point with a sling which has bowline on a bight to create a loop. The sling is then clove hitched to the second bolt as backup. I am tying into the master point using a sling (which is also used for abseiling), so not part of the rope system. 

Belaying the second with a reverso, and at the moment coiling the rope across my feet until my partner arrives, and then flaking the rope back over my partners feet before setting off on the next pitch as if it were a normal standing belay. 

However, this is not the most comfortable and is a bit of a pain in the arse/time consuming in flaking the rope back to my partner. 

I have tried coiling the rope over my sling, which is fine, and I can take my time to make it neat as I'm using a reverso to belay with, but it obviously coils from belay loop progressively towards the master point. When my partner was arrived and is ready to belay, I can flip the rope over from my sling to hers, but then as she is belaying, the rope is being fed out from the point closest her belay loop which does not seem very smooth, and has the potential for tangles. It would be much better is the rope was being fed off the front of the sling, but that would require flaking the rope from one sling to the other. 

Hope the above makes sense. 

Is there a better way of managing this???

    

In reply to fenski:

You're doing it correctly. The trick, however, is that you need to start with long coils and get progressively shorter with each subsequent coil. This will then feed out much smoother for the belayer. The belayer also realistically should pull down a few metres of rope to the side to make feeding easier so they can concentrate more on their partner (and handle any tangles preemptively) - in practicality this is a balancing act as I'm sure you're aware  

Once you've got this wired things get much easier and tangles become rare. 

In reply to MischaHY:

If I am flipping the rope over to my partner, should I not, when making the coils, then start with smaller coils at my belay loop getting progressively longer?? 

Once my partner starts belaying the coils will start feeding off from close to her belay loop, which would then mean starting with the smaller ones, leaving less risk of tangles.  

Pulling a few meters of rope down makes perfect sense, as you are then effectively belaying with the rope from below as normal. 

In reply to fenski:

Or use two big HMS, clipping the rope in in  big loops with overhand knots as  you take it in - shorter loops on the end that is going to be fed out first for the next pitch.  When your partner arrives, feed her HMS through the loops in the opposite direction so that the short loops come out first, turn the whole lot round and clip the krab in.  Big, generous overhands are easier than little ones.

In reply to MischaHY:

That sounds right for swinging leads, but would be the other way around for block leading wouldn't it? 

In reply to fenski: Not sure exactly what routes you're block leading on, but it's always been a bit of a non-issue whenever I've done it... 

If it's steep and smooth enough, just go for two or three very long loops of rope (c. 10m) clipped to the belay and hanging back down the rock face and then you don't need to do anything much.

If it's not steep just stack the rope by your feet and the second just back stacks it similarly after they arrive.

I find that I rarely if ever need to mess around transferring lap coils. It would be my least preferred option. Also, as Mischa says there is a knack to managing the coils when belaying to keep several metres of rope available below the belay device. 

In reply to fenski:

Relevant to this is why you are block leading? One stronger climber, or just speed?

In reply to fenski:

Here's a leftfield idea, take an IKEA bag up with you, clip it on to your belay, flake the rope into it when you bring up your partner, then once you're both clipped in to the belay via your slings undo your knots and swap ends (for safety, do this one at a time) then boogie on up.

I just thought this up myself, never done it, though I have seen the IKEA bag method used when swinging leads and think it's ugly but genius.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Normally, easy multi pitch in Austria. 

I was always a bit wary having long coils hanging out of reach below the belay in case they get caught on something, and then become difficult to retrieve.

I'm talking specifically about steeper routes, where the is no ledge and I'm just hanging against the wall and as an alternative looping coils over my feet. 

If there is any sort of ledge, I'll just stack it there and then flake it through to my partner once tied off. 

In reply to David Coley:

It's all relative, but I would be the "stronger" climber. 

I'm talking about hanging belays specifically, which is typically the steeper pitches, so my missus wouldn't be comfortable leading. 

In reply to Iamgregp:

I had thought about swapping rope ends, but don't like the idea of untying. Using half ropes, so that's 4 ends to swap over. Too much room for a cock up.  

Also, making a hanging belay might be only 1 or 2 pitches out of 10, so just trying to find the least cumbersome method for those. 

In reply to fenski:

Ah yeah, probably not a goer with half ropes, way too much faff.

In reply to fenski:

Long loops aren't appropriate everywhere but they work great on overhanging terrain or relatively smooth wall climbs. 

It's definitely an option worth experimenting with it as it provides a quick and straightforward option when it's appropriate.

Just to elaborate. I clip an extra (relatively large) krab to the belay. After taking in each long loop, I tie an overhand knot on the bight in both ropes and then clip just ONE strand of the loop into the krab so it doesn't get too crowded. Tying the knot whilst keeping the belay device locked off takes a bit of care but isn't that tricky. It normally ends up being three long loops, very occasionally four and I'll clip alternate colours just to help differentiate them. At the change over, I may unclip and then reclip the loops in the opposite order which only takes a few seconds. The belayer then needs to unclip the loops and untie the overhands as the rope feeds out. Unclipping is easy one-handed. Untying the knot (which has only been loaded with the weight of the rope) whilst belaying again requires some care but is fairly straightforward. IMO, overall it seems a lot easier than managing lots of lap coils.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Need to get head around how to make the coils, but it sounds like quite a neat solution. 

I'll have a play around with both options this weekend and see which option work best in which situations. 

In reply to fenski:

Metolius do a rope hook and apparently you can rotate the rope within it for block leading. I've not used one - just know they exist. 

In reply to fenski:a couple of ideas in this clip.

youtube.com/watch?v=BGY4skAtvns&

Liked the look of the second option

In reply to fenski:

Yes indeed, short to long when flipping as going backwards.  

In reply to fenski:

Restacking the rope doesn't take long and if you do it well you shouldn't have to worry about rope salad on the next pitch. You can probably save more time by getting more efficient on all the other aspects of the changeover, eg thinking about positioning of leader and second and making sure everyone is always doing something while changing over.