UKH

I'm not sure what the correct term is but I'm using 'pulley runner' to mean that type of runner that is placed as the bottom of a climb for one of the following reasons:

a) To keep the rope in against the rock e.g as used in the recent ascent of Hard Cheese;

b) To allow rapid taking in of the rope in case of a fall, as might be used on some grit frighteners such as Masters Edge and Gaia.

In some circumstances the pulley runner is not located actually on the route, for instance on Master's Edge it fixed to a boulder near the bottom. Does the usage of such a runner actually constitute an ascent using side runners and reduce the grade accordingly?

Of course it constitutes an ascent. Potentially there's an argument for it being not quite as pure a style which could be improved upon (go for it hardonicus), but it's definitely an ascent.

Yeah you're absolutely spot on mate, and thanks for highlighting this pressing issue. Do you want to tell Craig his ascent is invalid, unless he uses UKC Forum Anorak Approved Full-Friction Runners (with μ>1), or should I?

I was with you up until the last sentence, then I lol'd.  

I hope it doesn't reduce the grade, or my ascents of Wuthering (E2 5b) and The Swan (E3 5c) will be expunged from the record, accompanied by many woeful tears.  Just smart tactics if you ask me. 

I think if the pulley runner is the first runner on the route then it's not a side runner it's just a runner. I don't know if Hard Cheese falls into this category - but specific climbs were not really meant to be focus (except by way of example).

I'm more interested in the general ethical debate which seems to me to be similar to mat use on trad routes in some respects.

Have you not just entirely contradicted yourself?

What do you think of Jonny Woodward using two independent belayers for Beau Geste (E7 6c)? Ethically dodgy?

Thin end of the wedge... it's an all to brief descent from a runner on a boulder to just laddering it

Naked shoeless free-solo is how they're graded, every time you one of the following: shoes, clothes, chalk, rope, runners etc you need to subtract half a grade.

On the same basis you can add back half a grade for each of the following: hempen rope round waist, hobnail boots with socks pulled over the top, beer gut big enough to rest a pint glass, stopping to eat a pie and smoke a fag just below the crux, refusing chalk, extremely itchy woollen underwear

But nobody and I mean NOBODY can abide a pulley runner, it's not cricket.

Your first runner should always be capable of taking an upward pull, shouldn't it? 

Unless you are on a poor stance/narrow ledge etc. I've place runners before that I don't care if they fall out later, just needed until I got going and got a decent bit of gear in

I'm talking specifically about pulley runners that are not on the route e.g off to one side or on a boulder nearby.

Yes my wording could have been better. I am saying that a pulley runner located on the deck but not on the route should really be considered a side runner in terms of the stylistic interpretation of the ascent.

i.e an ascent of Masters Edge with the runner on the boulder should be an 'ascent with a side runner'

But it isn't a side runner as you haven't climbed off to the side to place it, simply placing it from the ground. Surely that's obvious?

Are you trolling?

Would you be happy with that style of ascent? That's all that matters really 🤷‍♂️

Similarly, if your belay mate sprints away whilst you fall saving you from decking it, the E grade should be reduced for using a ground runner.

When I led Wuthering, I found a boulder at ground level, off to the left of the line and put a sling around it.  I clipped the LH rope and then led the route.  I thought i was being cunning as it reduced the potential severity of a swing rightwards from the crux.  I didn't give the ethics a second thought.  I'm just chuffed that i figured a way to solve 'the problem'.

Why should anyone else be bothered?

Presumably Usain’ a Bolt would be completely unethical?

It was years ago now, but I’m pretty sure I did the same thing. 

Absolutely, running away is cowardice and any leader who encourages their second to run is a coward too.

If you see anyone on a blank and desperate looking climb where the top half is ground fall potential where they are only climbing due to possessing very large testicles, if they had the audacity to place a bottom runner , you should wait until the leader is at the crux and shout "You sir are a COWARD!! and CHEAT!!" and throw stones at them. It's modern climbing ethics you know...

Yes I've always thought of 'side runner' as something you put in on another route, which you can't reach from the principal route, having already started said principal route.