This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Keen to do LBJ at Boisgran. Can anyone tell me how good the gear is near the broken off peg on the third pitch?
4
In reply to ozandrew:
If gear placements were not so good LBJ would still be HVS, if they were better the route would be HS - but it's graded VS and the gear placements are consistent with that grade - sorry I can't provide detailed descriptions and photos of every nut placement to reduce the grade for you.
If gear placements were not so good LBJ would still be HVS, if they were better the route would be HS - but it's graded VS and the gear placements are consistent with that grade - sorry I can't provide detailed descriptions and photos of every nut placement to reduce the grade for you.
13
97
78
In reply to Crank:
Well that's him told! Perhaps you should change your username to "cranky" (in the American sense of the word).
> sorry I can't provide detailed descriptions and photos of every nut placement to reduce the grade for you.
Well that's him told! Perhaps you should change your username to "cranky" (in the American sense of the word).
24
In reply to Crank:
The moves are hard and sustained enough so that it would be VS regardless of how good the gear was.
The moves are hard and sustained enough so that it would be VS regardless of how good the gear was.
12
In reply to ozandrew:
An admirably dignified and restrained response to a clever dick, Andrew. You'll enjoy Little Brown Jug I feel sure, and many more besides.
> Apologies accepted.
An admirably dignified and restrained response to a clever dick, Andrew. You'll enjoy Little Brown Jug I feel sure, and many more besides.
23
In reply to ozandrew:
Absolutely, it would have to grow more holds for it to be HS, not just more gear.
Absolutely, it would have to grow more holds for it to be HS, not just more gear.
10
In reply to Crank:
What a stupid post.
> If gear placements were not so good LBJ would still be HVS, if they were better the route would be HS - but it's graded VS and the gear placements are consistent with that grade - sorry I can't provide detailed descriptions and photos of every nut placement to reduce the grade for you.
What a stupid post.
39
3
In reply to james mann:
There is a cam where the old peg was but it's very shallow and ends up blocking a good hand hold making the move a bit harder. The gear bellow I didn't rate and thought it would pull, There's some good gear a bit below that IIRC but it's further from you than you'd like.
My memory was that the bd camelots were too wide in the head to fit in the placement and angle downwards that's how shallow it is. A narrower head cam would fit though.
I thought it was hvs in the current state and harder that anvil chorus (that is also graded top end vs)
There is a cam where the old peg was but it's very shallow and ends up blocking a good hand hold making the move a bit harder. The gear bellow I didn't rate and thought it would pull, There's some good gear a bit below that IIRC but it's further from you than you'd like.
My memory was that the bd camelots were too wide in the head to fit in the placement and angle downwards that's how shallow it is. A narrower head cam would fit though.
I thought it was hvs in the current state and harder that anvil chorus (that is also graded top end vs)
Post edited at 08:09
6
3
In reply to bpmclimb:
Or "w@nk"
> Well that's him told! Perhaps you should change your username to "cranky" (in the American sense of the word).
Or "w@nk"
1
7
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I thought LBJ was middling VS 4c and the gear OK. I didn't place a cam in the slot as it was a useful handhold but there was enough just below not to worry. I thought Anvil Chorus a notch harder, pushing HVS, broadly the same difficulty to climb (albeit very different in style) but requiring a more confident approach, better general awareness, enjoyment of crazy exposure, and care protecting the second, all things adjectival grades were supposed to include.
I thought LBJ was middling VS 4c and the gear OK. I didn't place a cam in the slot as it was a useful handhold but there was enough just below not to worry. I thought Anvil Chorus a notch harder, pushing HVS, broadly the same difficulty to climb (albeit very different in style) but requiring a more confident approach, better general awareness, enjoyment of crazy exposure, and care protecting the second, all things adjectival grades were supposed to include.
3
2
In reply to Offwidth:
Absolutely. It's decades since I last climbed in Cornwall but even then Anvil Chorus seemed to regularly clock up far more than its fair share of spectacular airtime.
> I thought LBJ was middling VS 4c (...) I thought Anvil Chorus a notch harder, pushing HVS
Absolutely. It's decades since I last climbed in Cornwall but even then Anvil Chorus seemed to regularly clock up far more than its fair share of spectacular airtime.
1
2
In reply to ozandrew:
I found LBJ to be hard, really hard, for the moves past where the peg used to be.
In fact, on the two times i did it I fell off these moves, not something I'd expect at 4c, even being the bumbly that I am.
Luckily I was seconding both times but I just couldn't see how to do the moves, not at 4c anyway!
On the first time on LBJ my leader also struggled and he leads far harder than vs, maybe the fact that both of us are short didn't help!
Funny how some find a given route OK while others struggle.
For what it's worth I thought anvil chorus was easy and couldn't see what all the fuss was about!
I found LBJ to be hard, really hard, for the moves past where the peg used to be.
In fact, on the two times i did it I fell off these moves, not something I'd expect at 4c, even being the bumbly that I am.
Luckily I was seconding both times but I just couldn't see how to do the moves, not at 4c anyway!
On the first time on LBJ my leader also struggled and he leads far harder than vs, maybe the fact that both of us are short didn't help!
Funny how some find a given route OK while others struggle.
For what it's worth I thought anvil chorus was easy and couldn't see what all the fuss was about!
1
In reply to baron:
I'm amazed, using the jug for a handhold it's the easiest 5a move I can ever remember doing in the West Penrith area and easier than anything 5a on grit (except maybe the 5a rock-over move on The Knights Move). How often do you climb that grade?
I'm amazed, using the jug for a handhold it's the easiest 5a move I can ever remember doing in the West Penrith area and easier than anything 5a on grit (except maybe the 5a rock-over move on The Knights Move). How often do you climb that grade?
Post edited at 14:26
3
In reply to Offwidth:
Is it not the slightly sketchy move up to reach the jug that's the crux though? I.e. once on the jug it's all over. Admittedly I do have a poor memory for these things though.
> I'm amazed...
Is it not the slightly sketchy move up to reach the jug that's the crux though? I.e. once on the jug it's all over. Admittedly I do have a poor memory for these things though.
In reply to Tom Last:
IIRC, the route was named after a cheeky pull on the "little brown jug " ( a slightly rusty peg ) to gain the good hold above?
Did it again about 5 years ago, VS 5a felt correct, still good gear nearby.
> Is it not the slightly sketchy move up to reach the jug that's the crux though? I.e. once on the jug it's all over. Admittedly I do have a poor memory for these things though.
IIRC, the route was named after a cheeky pull on the "little brown jug " ( a slightly rusty peg ) to gain the good hold above?
Did it again about 5 years ago, VS 5a felt correct, still good gear nearby.
Post edited at 17:42
1
In reply to Rick Graham:
I'm afraid that is just total bollocks!
'p3 - 70ft Just to the left of the rib of ledge climb is a crack overhung at its base. Climb the first few feet by layback then on to a sloping ledge by judicious use of a 'little brown jug'. Make a difficult step up left, then up on small holds to layback flakes. Cross the trough of Ledge climb and finish up a vertical layback crack.'
This is Barry and Pete Biven's description which appeared in the 1956 supplement to Cornwall 1950 by Rawdon Goodier, which I think was also worked on by Pete, Barry and John Deacon. It is likely that this was copied directly from the Count House logbook. In this guide it is graded HVS but was downgraded to VS by the time Biven and McDermott's Cornwall Volume 1 came out in 1968. Interestingly there is no mention of a peg at all in this description. Pegs for both runners and aid are described on the other Biven/Peck routes of the time, so it seems likely that there wasn't one until later.
Zeke Deacon gave me his copy of the guide to use for some work I'm doing. It will in due course be digitised and will be able for all to enjoy in the CC archive. Pat Littlejohn told me last week that he learned to type by copying out the route descriptions for things he wished to climb, before spending a week camping at the Count House in 1966.
James
> IIRC, the route was named after a cheeky pull on the "little brown jug " ( a slightly rusty peg ) to gain the good hold above?
I'm afraid that is just total bollocks!
'p3 - 70ft Just to the left of the rib of ledge climb is a crack overhung at its base. Climb the first few feet by layback then on to a sloping ledge by judicious use of a 'little brown jug'. Make a difficult step up left, then up on small holds to layback flakes. Cross the trough of Ledge climb and finish up a vertical layback crack.'
This is Barry and Pete Biven's description which appeared in the 1956 supplement to Cornwall 1950 by Rawdon Goodier, which I think was also worked on by Pete, Barry and John Deacon. It is likely that this was copied directly from the Count House logbook. In this guide it is graded HVS but was downgraded to VS by the time Biven and McDermott's Cornwall Volume 1 came out in 1968. Interestingly there is no mention of a peg at all in this description. Pegs for both runners and aid are described on the other Biven/Peck routes of the time, so it seems likely that there wasn't one until later.
Zeke Deacon gave me his copy of the guide to use for some work I'm doing. It will in due course be digitised and will be able for all to enjoy in the CC archive. Pat Littlejohn told me last week that he learned to type by copying out the route descriptions for things he wished to climb, before spending a week camping at the Count House in 1966.
James
1
In reply to ozandrew:
I've done the route 30+ times, and I always find the most worrying bit the first 20ft. The gear is difficult to arrange.
The last 15ft up the wide crack can also catch people by surprise.
The bit you are talking about requires a little bit of confidence and a subtle approach: there is good gear, but it isn't at head height. The main thing is to play with the holds until you find the right way to do it, rather than thrashing around.
Enjoy.
I've done the route 30+ times, and I always find the most worrying bit the first 20ft. The gear is difficult to arrange.
The last 15ft up the wide crack can also catch people by surprise.
The bit you are talking about requires a little bit of confidence and a subtle approach: there is good gear, but it isn't at head height. The main thing is to play with the holds until you find the right way to do it, rather than thrashing around.
Enjoy.
3
In reply to David Coley:
I've only done it the once but I remember it taking a long while to get to a runner on the first pitch.
I've only done it the once but I remember it taking a long while to get to a runner on the first pitch.
5
In reply to Offwidth:
As ever grading is subjective. I've found some HVS 5a climbs on eastern grit easier including:
Mississippi Variant (HVS 5a)
Robin Hood's Cave Innominate/Harding's Finish (HVS 5a)
As ever grading is subjective. I've found some HVS 5a climbs on eastern grit easier including:
Mississippi Variant (HVS 5a)
Robin Hood's Cave Innominate/Harding's Finish (HVS 5a)
1
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Given the way grades are supposed to work (a subjective guess at a population average) I'd be flabbergasted if you didn't find many more grit HVS routes easier. Both those you mention are bottom end of HVS graded lists and we both know there are hundreds of tougher VS climbs on grit. Question is, being honest about how you find climbs to the average climber, do you think your view is typical.
Given the way grades are supposed to work (a subjective guess at a population average) I'd be flabbergasted if you didn't find many more grit HVS routes easier. Both those you mention are bottom end of HVS graded lists and we both know there are hundreds of tougher VS climbs on grit. Question is, being honest about how you find climbs to the average climber, do you think your view is typical.
In reply to David Coley:
My views match yours. The start is deceptively tricky and the finish easy to struggle on if energy levels are low. The whole thing is a delight.
My views match yours. The start is deceptively tricky and the finish easy to struggle on if energy levels are low. The whole thing is a delight.
Post edited at 11:23
In reply to Offwidth:
I don't think most climbers would describe lbj as mid grade VS 4c, do you think your view is typical?
UKC votes anvil chorus and lbj about the same top end VS.
Which you find easier probably depends on a number of factors, but I bridged nearly all of the crux corner of anvil chorus so it was well protected and not too pumpy. lbj I found more cruxy and quite bold for VS 5a. Normally I'd expect gear above my waist for VS 5a not well below feet when going for the 5a move.
I don't think most climbers would describe lbj as mid grade VS 4c, do you think your view is typical?
UKC votes anvil chorus and lbj about the same top end VS.
Which you find easier probably depends on a number of factors, but I bridged nearly all of the crux corner of anvil chorus so it was well protected and not too pumpy. lbj I found more cruxy and quite bold for VS 5a. Normally I'd expect gear above my waist for VS 5a not well below feet when going for the 5a move.
Post edited at 11:44
In reply to CurlyStevo:
No 5a move in sight in my view. UKC grade votes are useless for placing routes within a grade band. Every easy VS Classic on Stanage comes out as mid grade and some Moorland, Roaches or Yorkshite VS classics that make LBJ seem like a path are voted easier!
Little Brown Jug (VS 5a)
Look at these as an example:
Flash Wall (VS 5a)
Valkyrie (VS 4c)
Joanna (VS 5a)
Z Climb (VS 4c)
Rough Wall (VS 5a)
Even clear sandbag classic VS climbs are getting voted barely a quarter grade harder
Central Climb Direct (VS 5a)
No 5a move in sight in my view. UKC grade votes are useless for placing routes within a grade band. Every easy VS Classic on Stanage comes out as mid grade and some Moorland, Roaches or Yorkshite VS classics that make LBJ seem like a path are voted easier!
Little Brown Jug (VS 5a)
Look at these as an example:
Flash Wall (VS 5a)
Valkyrie (VS 4c)
Joanna (VS 5a)
Z Climb (VS 4c)
Rough Wall (VS 5a)
Even clear sandbag classic VS climbs are getting voted barely a quarter grade harder
Central Climb Direct (VS 5a)
1
2
In reply to Offwidth:
UKC votes are useless for placing votes within a grade band?
You'll have to explain your logic there.
Or maybe 30' grit routes at the grade are just basically easier......except Altar Crack obv
UKC votes are useless for placing votes within a grade band?
You'll have to explain your logic there.
Or maybe 30' grit routes at the grade are just basically easier......except Altar Crack obv
2
In reply to Rick Graham:
That's pretty much my memory of it (from 1982!). Quite high in grade, but neither undergraded nor badly protected. What I remember most about it was a) it was very good b) the final flake, which I had been told was quite hard, being an absolute doddle.
> Did it again about 5 years ago, VS 5a felt correct, still good gear nearby.
That's pretty much my memory of it (from 1982!). Quite high in grade, but neither undergraded nor badly protected. What I remember most about it was a) it was very good b) the final flake, which I had been told was quite hard, being an absolute doddle.
1
2
1
In reply to Bulls Crack:
UKC votes often show when a route is a sandbag that guidebook editors are ignoring (even if the guidebook comments from climbers I trust are more reliable... votes on sandbags don't always come out as I'd expect as an example Lands End Long Climb is HS in my view) . So from a guidebook editorial perspective, when trying to work out what grade something should be, votes can help (but trusted climber comments are better still).
So now to the detail within a band: the votes for a classic VS say its a VS but can we trust the votes for placing a route on a graded list within the band. Is it easy, midband or hard. The votes sadly don't tell us anything especially useful here. Popular soft touches often end up mid grade (especially at Stanage) and obscure top end VS classics end up if anything a bit harser than I would grade them such that pretty much the full VS grade difference between two routes (say inverted V and Flash Wall) can shink to 1/3 of the VS grade width in vote averages. This has to be because the voting populations are different.. too many VS neophytes on Stanage and too many modest experienced climbers on the obscure brutes. Hence I'd love to see names linked to grades so that I can track them, as anyone can on Mountain Project.
'Yorkshite' was not intended, I like the trad there, humbling though it is for me... probably a typo (unless Jon Stewart has hacked me).
UKC votes often show when a route is a sandbag that guidebook editors are ignoring (even if the guidebook comments from climbers I trust are more reliable... votes on sandbags don't always come out as I'd expect as an example Lands End Long Climb is HS in my view) . So from a guidebook editorial perspective, when trying to work out what grade something should be, votes can help (but trusted climber comments are better still).
So now to the detail within a band: the votes for a classic VS say its a VS but can we trust the votes for placing a route on a graded list within the band. Is it easy, midband or hard. The votes sadly don't tell us anything especially useful here. Popular soft touches often end up mid grade (especially at Stanage) and obscure top end VS classics end up if anything a bit harser than I would grade them such that pretty much the full VS grade difference between two routes (say inverted V and Flash Wall) can shink to 1/3 of the VS grade width in vote averages. This has to be because the voting populations are different.. too many VS neophytes on Stanage and too many modest experienced climbers on the obscure brutes. Hence I'd love to see names linked to grades so that I can track them, as anyone can on Mountain Project.
'Yorkshite' was not intended, I like the trad there, humbling though it is for me... probably a typo (unless Jon Stewart has hacked me).
Post edited at 09:40
In reply to Offwidth:
Some interesting use of tech grades at Bos - compare the two "5a" upper pitches of Picnic for example - one is 4c ish , the other is 5b ish
Some interesting use of tech grades at Bos - compare the two "5a" upper pitches of Picnic for example - one is 4c ish , the other is 5b ish
1
In reply to Offwidth:
But the route is graded 5a so the move is thought to be 5a which, on VS, would mean runners in a very friendly place.
> No 5a move in sight in my view. UKC grade votes are useless for placing routes within a grade band. Every easy VS Classic on Stanage comes out as mid grade and some Moorland, Roaches or Yorkshite VS classics that make LBJ seem like a path are voted easier!Little Brown Jug (VS 5a)Look at these as an example:Flash Wall (VS 5a)Valkyrie (VS 4c)Joanna (VS 5a)Z Climb (VS 4c)Rough Wall (VS 5a)Even clear sandbag classic VS climbs are getting voted barely a quarter grade harderCentral Climb Direct (VS 5a)
But the route is graded 5a so the move is thought to be 5a which, on VS, would mean runners in a very friendly place.
3
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
I think there is an element of bravado going on here. I'd be surprised if the route gets down graded to VS 4c anytime soon.
I think there is an element of bravado going on here. I'd be surprised if the route gets down graded to VS 4c anytime soon.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I thought the crux was pretty serious for VS, my note at the time was that I'd done easier HVSs (and I was just seconding that pitch!). My partner placed the cam, but even that seemed unusually distant for the crux moves (particularly relative to Cornwall, where we usually find grades on the soft side). I couldn't climb it without using the slot that the cam had occupied as a hand hold (I did try!).
My view FWIW is HVS 4c if you don't place the cam, tough VS 5a if you do.
I thought the crux was pretty serious for VS, my note at the time was that I'd done easier HVSs (and I was just seconding that pitch!). My partner placed the cam, but even that seemed unusually distant for the crux moves (particularly relative to Cornwall, where we usually find grades on the soft side). I couldn't climb it without using the slot that the cam had occupied as a hand hold (I did try!).
My view FWIW is HVS 4c if you don't place the cam, tough VS 5a if you do.
3
In reply to smithaldo:
Well, James has been researching in depth the history of Cornish and Devon climbing and has not come across any reference to the peg being used for aid. The Biven Brothers were well capable of climbing 5a, they reported the aid they used on other routes at the time (e.g. Suicide Wall) and given the intense rivalry that developed later, if a peg had been used for aid, someone would have shouted about it.
Well, James has been researching in depth the history of Cornish and Devon climbing and has not come across any reference to the peg being used for aid. The Biven Brothers were well capable of climbing 5a, they reported the aid they used on other routes at the time (e.g. Suicide Wall) and given the intense rivalry that developed later, if a peg had been used for aid, someone would have shouted about it.
1
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Unless they were all winking at each other in appreciation of the joke?
> Well, James has been researching in depth the history of Cornish and Devon climbing and has not come across any reference to the peg being used for aid. The Biven Brothers were well capable of climbing 5a, they reported the aid they used on other routes at the time (e.g. Suicide Wall) and given the intense rivalry that developed later, if a peg had been used for aid, someone would have shouted about it.
Unless they were all winking at each other in appreciation of the joke?
1
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
At last another bumbly who agrees that move might just be over-rated at 5a if the hold isn't taken by a cam (and some good logic).
I'd dearly like to know where all those hundreds of easier West Penrith VS climbs are though. LBJ remains one of my easiest and for me the start was probably the crux and the finish hurried me up (and I adore steep stuff).
I did yet another Severe that felt harder than LBJ this last trip:
Flash Back (S 4a)
This had a really tricky sequence on twin steep cracks, fortunately with bomber pro. Think crux of Doorpost but about 2 tech grades harder (we did Doorpost the same trip to make sure we were not losing it...it felt real easy for 4b) . I can only think most ascentionists are bypassing the twin cracks in the next route to the right. 2 experienced guidebook workers just dont miss 4b sequencies when wanting to avoid climbing 5a moves.
At last another bumbly who agrees that move might just be over-rated at 5a if the hold isn't taken by a cam (and some good logic).
I'd dearly like to know where all those hundreds of easier West Penrith VS climbs are though. LBJ remains one of my easiest and for me the start was probably the crux and the finish hurried me up (and I adore steep stuff).
I did yet another Severe that felt harder than LBJ this last trip:
Flash Back (S 4a)
This had a really tricky sequence on twin steep cracks, fortunately with bomber pro. Think crux of Doorpost but about 2 tech grades harder (we did Doorpost the same trip to make sure we were not losing it...it felt real easy for 4b) . I can only think most ascentionists are bypassing the twin cracks in the next route to the right. 2 experienced guidebook workers just dont miss 4b sequencies when wanting to avoid climbing 5a moves.
1
1
In reply to all:
LBJ is VS, no question. Whether it feels 4c or 5a will depend on how comfortable you are with somewhat "non-standard" moves. If you can rock up in balance, and maybe palm a bit, it'll all be over before you know it. If you need all your climbing moves to be of the "reach and pull" variety, it may seem a bit perplexing.
LBJ is VS, no question. Whether it feels 4c or 5a will depend on how comfortable you are with somewhat "non-standard" moves. If you can rock up in balance, and maybe palm a bit, it'll all be over before you know it. If you need all your climbing moves to be of the "reach and pull" variety, it may seem a bit perplexing.
3
In reply to bpmclimb:
Yes, and what a huge fuss is being made over whether we call that move 4c or 5a! As if it matters much. I remember it as being nice, that's all.
I've now looked it up in my logbook written at the time (12.4.82): 'A terrific V.S. – one of the best in the country. Top pitch is of sustained tech. interest with HVS ambience, demanding good leading psyche.'
Yes, and what a huge fuss is being made over whether we call that move 4c or 5a! As if it matters much. I remember it as being nice, that's all.
I've now looked it up in my logbook written at the time (12.4.82): 'A terrific V.S. – one of the best in the country. Top pitch is of sustained tech. interest with HVS ambience, demanding good leading psyche.'
1
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
It matters to those of us who can just about manage a 4c move, but normally fail on 5a
It matters to those of us who can just about manage a 4c move, but normally fail on 5a
3
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
At a bold guess I'd say that LBJ is either top end 4c or bottom end 5a, so you may or may not fall off. That is what the sport of rock climbing is all about at its best, when you're climbing close to your limit. You can't be sure you'll get up it, and the guidebook can't help you much.
> It matters to those of us who can just about manage a 4c move, but normally fail on 5a
At a bold guess I'd say that LBJ is either top end 4c or bottom end 5a, so you may or may not fall off. That is what the sport of rock climbing is all about at its best, when you're climbing close to your limit. You can't be sure you'll get up it, and the guidebook can't help you much.
4
In reply to Mark Kemball: I'm not disputing james' knowledge and it could of course just be coincidence that the route name fits what Rick was told.
It seems another great example of climbings rich tapestry of history!
I also can't remember whether said jug is brown or not?
It seems another great example of climbings rich tapestry of history!
I also can't remember whether said jug is brown or not?
In reply to smithaldo:
I did this route about a week ago and I didn't see any brown jugs...but then I'm colourblind.????
I did this route about a week ago and I didn't see any brown jugs...but then I'm colourblind.????
In reply to smithaldo:
A few points or possibly pointers
1. The whole crag is a sort of brown colour, so most holds are brownish.
2. The route may have been put up on sight/ground up, so a handhold on a peg may have been used for cleaning some loose rock or vegetation.
3. My Littlejohn 1979 guide is a bit coy in the description about holds and peg runners, " .....with assistance from a "little brown jug " (peg runner ) "
4. If IIRC, an early Mountain mag article on Cornwall may have suggested why the route was named such.
5. Little Brown Jug is a song title ( written 1869 according to wiki )
6. History buffs may recall LBJ was the nickname for the US president.
> I'm not disputing james' knowledge and it could of course just be coincidence that the route name fits what Rick was told. It seems another great example of climbings rich tapestry of history! I also can't remember whether said jug is brown or not?
A few points or possibly pointers
1. The whole crag is a sort of brown colour, so most holds are brownish.
2. The route may have been put up on sight/ground up, so a handhold on a peg may have been used for cleaning some loose rock or vegetation.
3. My Littlejohn 1979 guide is a bit coy in the description about holds and peg runners, " .....with assistance from a "little brown jug " (peg runner ) "
4. If IIRC, an early Mountain mag article on Cornwall may have suggested why the route was named such.
5. Little Brown Jug is a song title ( written 1869 according to wiki )
6. History buffs may recall LBJ was the nickname for the US president.
Post edited at 18:01
In reply to Rick Graham:
Number 6 is easy to debunk as the first ascent was 1955, 5 years before LBJ became Kennedy's VP, so very unlikely to be named for him.
I've climbed it quite a few times - most recently this Good Friday. I've never spotted the brown jug and always assumed it referred to the long extinct peg, but I may be wrong. I've also never put a cam by the peg stump - didn't look good enough to me.
I think many people make it harder by trying to move up past the peg stump rather than rocking over to a good rest on the left, from where you can lean back right and place good gear in a slot above the peg scar.
VS 4c is OK by me, albeit top end of each.
Martin
> A few points or possibly pointers 1. The whole crag is a sort of brown colour, so most holds are brownish.2. The route may have been put up on sight/ground up, so a handhold on a peg may have been used for cleaning some loose rock or vegetation.3. My Littlejohn 1979 guide is a bit coy in the description about holds and peg runners, " .....with assistance from a "little brown jug " (peg runner ) "4. If IIRC, an early Mountain mag article on Cornwall may have suggested why the route was named such.5. Little Brown Jug is a song title ( written 1869 according to wiki ) 6. History buffs may recall LBJ was the nickname for the US president.
Number 6 is easy to debunk as the first ascent was 1955, 5 years before LBJ became Kennedy's VP, so very unlikely to be named for him.
I've climbed it quite a few times - most recently this Good Friday. I've never spotted the brown jug and always assumed it referred to the long extinct peg, but I may be wrong. I've also never put a cam by the peg stump - didn't look good enough to me.
I think many people make it harder by trying to move up past the peg stump rather than rocking over to a good rest on the left, from where you can lean back right and place good gear in a slot above the peg scar.
VS 4c is OK by me, albeit top end of each.
Martin
5
In reply to Martin Hore:
I think you might be correct in every statement in that post.
Interestingly, the PL SW guide 1979, gives exactly that recommendation, to move left then right after the LBJ.
I think you might be correct in every statement in that post.
Interestingly, the PL SW guide 1979, gives exactly that recommendation, to move left then right after the LBJ.
In reply to ozandrew:
Worked out a few graded lists for future reference (based on logbook grades and votes).
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=662537
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=662549
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=662542
Worked out a few graded lists for future reference (based on logbook grades and votes).
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=662537
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=662549
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=662542
1
In reply to ozandrew:
I have to completely agree with baron and CurlyStevo's comments - I thought LBJ was very hard for the grade. (I'd suggest anyone who thinks it is overgraded is so good that they've forgotten what it feels like to actually be an HVS leader?) The moves are definitely 5a in my experience, and the gear is not brilliant. I felt HVS 5a would have given a better indication of the character of the route... ...and I've certainly done easier HVS 5as! The cam placement where the peg was is sub optimal (straight sided and not very deep), and it occupies a crucial handhold. I was very grateful not to have led this pitch.
I have to completely agree with baron and CurlyStevo's comments - I thought LBJ was very hard for the grade. (I'd suggest anyone who thinks it is overgraded is so good that they've forgotten what it feels like to actually be an HVS leader?) The moves are definitely 5a in my experience, and the gear is not brilliant. I felt HVS 5a would have given a better indication of the character of the route... ...and I've certainly done easier HVS 5as! The cam placement where the peg was is sub optimal (straight sided and not very deep), and it occupies a crucial handhold. I was very grateful not to have led this pitch.
4
1
In reply to Angry Bird:
I've always found West Penwith to be the home of good honest VSs and should act as a reminder for guidebok editors for other areas just what VS is ! LBJ is, to my mind, mid grade for the area. Slippery Slab at Sennen (clue in the name) and some spikey head eating off width at Aire point are the two VSs I remember being the toughest VS challenges I can remember down there.
I've always found West Penwith to be the home of good honest VSs and should act as a reminder for guidebok editors for other areas just what VS is ! LBJ is, to my mind, mid grade for the area. Slippery Slab at Sennen (clue in the name) and some spikey head eating off width at Aire point are the two VSs I remember being the toughest VS challenges I can remember down there.
In reply to james mann:
by judicious use of a 'little brown jug'...
Deffo reads as a reference to a cheeky pull on a peg to me. 'Judicious' is used with purpose... use your judgement, will you succumb to the temptation? Doesn't necessarily mean the FAs did.
Whatever the truth, that's now a fact (something I read on't internet) for me Great name and pitch description!
by judicious use of a 'little brown jug'...
Deffo reads as a reference to a cheeky pull on a peg to me. 'Judicious' is used with purpose... use your judgement, will you succumb to the temptation? Doesn't necessarily mean the FAs did.
Whatever the truth, that's now a fact (something I read on't internet) for me Great name and pitch description!
In reply to GrahamD:
I've always found it to be the home of the soft touch - probably too much time spent at Almscliff!
> I've always found West Penwith to be the home of good honest VSs
I've always found it to be the home of the soft touch - probably too much time spent at Almscliff!
2
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
No such thing as too much time at Almscliff. Lands End Long Climb is a bigger sandbag than any multi-starred VD on 'gods own rock'.
No such thing as too much time at Almscliff. Lands End Long Climb is a bigger sandbag than any multi-starred VD on 'gods own rock'.
1
In reply to ozandrew:
Years since I did it, thought benchmark VS 5a at the time but thinking about it now..... other Cornish 5as did feel harder.
Years since I did it, thought benchmark VS 5a at the time but thinking about it now..... other Cornish 5as did feel harder.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...