UKH

I've sort of volunteered and sort of been press-ganged into replacing worn out lower-offs at Horse-thief and Moss Rake. I'm going to get a dozen or so lower-off rings, and maillons to attach them with, from the Peak Bolt Fund. So I won't be able to do every route but should be able to replace any badly worn alloy insitu krabs.

The photos below show a krab that another climber took off a lower off at Moss Rake a couple of weeks back, I think he generously donated one of his krabs to replace it with, but it's anything that looks like that, that I will try and swap-out for a longer lasting steel ring.

I've climbed a couple of times at Moss Rake this summer, but haven't been to Horse Thief for some time. Has anyone noticed particularly worn kit at Horse Thief that I should target? Or indeed have you done a route a Moss Rake and noticed a worn out krab there? If so, please leave me your suggestions here.

More about the Peak Bolt Fund and links to paypal should you want to chip in here: https://www.facebook.com/thepeakboltfund/

In reply to TobyA:

I don't have any specific comments, but well done is the first thing to say.

Secondly, is there any chance that you could get DMM or someone to test the strength of the krabs taken off Moss Rake, shown in your pictures? It'd be really interesting to see how much strength has been lost.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I've still got to go and do it, and if no one wants to come out with me, I'll need to teach myself one of those clever sport climber methods to clip stick up an entire route solo first as well! But cheers.

I don't have any contacts at DMM, but if anyone does - or indeed anyone else with the testing rig for pulling to those sorts of kns, I'm happy to post that krab on to them.

In reply to TobyA:

Let me know if you have trouble getting help, should be able to sort something out.

Will be in that area tomorrow but on a mission (sort of). but will at least have time to chat if you are out there.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

It'll still be plenty strong enough for a lower off - the main issue with lowering from it would be if there's a reduced radius of curvature it'll cause more damage/twisting of the rope.

In reply to Ciro:

I think Hownot2 did some testing of badly worn krabs like these and they were still basically getting MBS. It's amazing how strong they are. I imagine if the gate were open it would be a very different story though!

In reply to PaulJepson:

That's a good point, if the gate was not able to close I'd still lower off it carefully if I had to, but you certainly wouldn't want to shock load it!

In reply to TobyA:

Well done Toby in checking the lower offs. I’ve climbed at Moss Rake and Horsethief this summer. The only worn lower off I can remember is the one on Kashmir Curry Centre at Moss Rake,

Chris 

In reply to TobyA:

PM'd you.

In reply to TobyA:

With Maillons, if you fill the barrel up with JB Weld as much as you can and crank it shut with a spanner "magpies" can't fly off with them. Of course you'd need to change them or the rings with a hacksaw.. but that's the point 

In reply to TobyA:

I did a visual check of the belays on the "main area" of Horse Thief last winter and they were ok but I remember seeing some very worn carabiners on the "left hand wall" the summer before which is hardly surprising given the grade and the number of ticks logged. I was intending to replace them but had reservations about the stability of the rock in that area especially that sketchy pillar.

I have been adamant as the Peak Bolt fund stock holder that no bolts or equipment should be used to re-equip buttresses of questionable stability especially those that are likely to be climbed on by children and novices as they cannot make an informed assessment and evidently the people instructing them can't either. The same goes for the rubble piles across the road and many of the easiest and most popular routes in Horseshoe that would have been decommissioned had they been on BMC land.

I don't know what the answer is? Leave them alone? Strip them? Replace worn crabs with your own? Probably the latter. A bolt fund like the BMC has to draw a line somewhere especially as beginners are frequenting these places in their droves.

"If you build it they will come". Like sprinkling  sheep pellets in the middle of the road.

In reply to kristian:

The amount of rock on the ground at Horse Thief has always been, shall we say, thought provoking, but when climbing the actual routes I don't remember pulling anything off or worrying about overall stability. So I suspect most of the rock on the ground is from when Gary first developed the crag and presumably did a thorough clean of looser bits. But I'm happy to go and check those lower offs on the left hand wall - Mark dropped off the kit this morning.

I don't climb hard enough to have done many routes in Cheedale for example, sport or trad, so I think the following probably doesn't apply as much to natural limestone; but I think anyone climbing on quarried limestone in the UK just needs to know to keep their wits about them and probably wear a helmet. But I very much take your point about novices and even kids. I happened to climb at Horseshoe yesterday, on a starred 5c on upper tier, my mate managed to knock some small loose stuff down. I had led first (so not actually sure where Luke managed to find the loose bits!) and had, stupidly of course, taken my helmet off whilst belaying as it was hot. No harm done that time but its a clearly popular route that is still shedding the odd bits of rock. The teams around us mainly didn't have a helmets and I got the sense some of them were novices to climbing outdoors at least. I had a quick word with one team to try and as unjudgementally as possible explain to them why lowering off then top roping off just one staple (they hadn't made it to the top) both wasn't great for their safety or for the bolt itself.

It's a bit of a vicious circle though - on more solid natural limestone there is nothing, or at least precious little, easy enough for novices or lower grade climbers, but the places where there are routes in the 4s, 5s and low 6s actually need some climbing- (maybe even mountaineering- ) experience so you can fully appreciate so of the less obvious risk, like rock quality.

In reply to Christheclimber:

Hi Chris - that may well be the one that is depicted in my first post. There's definitely one lower off that is shared between 2 or 3 different routes, so it makes sense that it would get the most wear.

I've now received the metal work so will try and get to both Horse Thief and Moss Rake in the next week or so.

In reply to TobyA:

You could fire it through to Dan Middleton at the BMC - I'm sure he'd be able to help.

In reply to TobyA:

Your right that Horse Thief isn't particularly loose but I find the leaning block Jenga appearance of the left-hand walls unsettling. It's certainly not as bad as the fridge freezer size block wedged into the muddy gully with a bolt on either side of it down the road in Goddards. Skipping the bolt and risking a ground fall seems like a more attractive option than putting a tomb stone on you and your belayer.

Or climbing on the lower tier walls across the road with a crevasse opening in the platform above. 

In reply to TobyA:good on you; I will gladly help and advise and support but still got no driving licence at the moment which is still pending 

In reply to Andy Say:

Setting measurable replacement criteria for fixed equipment would a sensible direction to go in I think, not a lot of value in testing stuff until there is a firm definition of what we plan to do with the data. Hownot2 did some testing of old Mussy Hooks a while ago:

https://www.hownot2.com/post/mussy-hooks

I will bring up the matter of bolt replacement and planning for it at Tech committee tonight. Currently it's quite reactive and seems to be based on individual subjective assessments rather than objective criteria such as depth of remaining material. The gold standard for manufacturers I suspect would be to have something similar to tyre tread indicators on this kind of anchor, how that would be implemented without adding stress raisers is another matter though.

In reply to spenser:

We've done all that years ago, I was even asked to say when the lower- offs became unsafe ( i.e. when they are weaker than the standard). Since the answer was less than 4mm2 of material remaining this was thought to be useless. The danger with worn karabiners is that a sharper and sharper edge is formed and may cut the rope, when this occurs is anyone's guess as it depends on too many variables.

As shown by the photos, one persons completely acceptable (the last to use it) is anothers due for replacement.

In reply to jimtitt:

Thanks Jim, useful info there.

In reply to TobyA: these are the original hangers I place but groups go there and put a top rope through them for their customers with no understanding of the damage they do to make money and contribute absolutely nothing 

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks for taking this on Toby. The lower-off for Kashmir Curry Centre does have a screwgate currently (and looks ok) so it seems it was generously replaced.

From memory, the other lower-offs all look ok I think.

I will come out and help if you need anything!

In reply to TobyA:

Hi Toby, think you are right and it is the carabiner from KCC.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

I alluded to this in the other thread by Chris Craggs regarding the influx of new climbers and old bolts. Your a seasoned campaigner Gary...What is the answer?

In reply to Stoney Boy:the answer is communication to the groups via the BMC or any other means, threads on here but I may be a seasoned cleaner and equipper but my time is almost over as I am completely  knackered after my stroke and other issues and someone will have to take over the responsibilities which are extremely demanding on body and mind

In reply to TobyA:

All the lower off karabiners on the main wall at horse thief were replaced with steel screwgates by myself ~1year ago. Climbed there recently and were still in good condition.

In reply to folky:

That's amazing - thanks for doing that! By "main wall" do you mean the wall round the corner (on the right)? If so, I'm still happy to go and check the ones on the left wall, that you get to first as you walk up from the road.

In reply to TobyA:

Sorry. Yes I meant the right hand wall where The Thief of Baghdad etc are.

The left wall and the two short routes at the very right hand end probably need looking at.

In reply to kristian:

After years of bolt clipping in the Peak and not giving much thought to how that's funded, this thread and the other current one have finally pricked my conscience enough to set up a DD to the Peak Bolt Fund and hopefully I'm not the only one.

I don't think many people lament the loss of the decommissioned routes at Horseshoe, and if routes elsewhere that are similarly poor and dangerous get stripped of their bolts when those bolts reach their sell by dates I would, personally, be happy to see the bolt fund used to that end.

In reply to Sam Beaton:

Well done Sam 👏

In reply to TobyA:

I went to Moss Rake last night with Euan McKendrick, also of this parish, and we replaced the krabs with a maillon and ring at the top of HG and the Deadweights (5c), Rare and Racy (6a), and the high belay shared by The Limit Club (6b+), Footsie 100 (6b+) and Kashmir Curry Centre (6b). 

Euan swapped the shared one at the top of the three routes. There was already a maillon there which I think he couldn't open, so he put a new maillon with the ring on to the preexisting one. If anyone can think of a good reason why that's not a good idea long term, I'll go back with more tools and remove the old maillon and join the chain bolt and ring with just the new one, but I think its ok as is, maybe even better - more play in the system so less like cross loading leverage?

In reply to TobyA:

Well it's better than having the heavily worn carabiners I suppose but in time the other components will need replacing. Probably best to start a fresh for a more long term solution.

In reply to TobyA:

Good effort. Those rings look nice and substantial!

Chris

In reply to folky:

Thanks folky, much appreciated.

In reply to TobyA:

Good work and many thanks to you and Euan.

In reply to Christheclimber:

It's only 3 so far and thanks really goes to the Peak Bolt Fund and in particular Mark Rankine who went out of his way and dropped the kit round to me whilst leaving to go on his summer holiday! Thank you Mark.

On a more personal note, I did my second ever 6b+ last night. I didn't onsight it but I only took one fall on my first go, and then got it on my first attempt after that. Quite pleased with myself! :⁠-⁠)

In reply to TobyA:

Make sure you take a spanner and really crank the maillons tight. The last time I replaced the worn lower offs, they were gone within weeks! Screw gates disappear even faster!

In reply to johncook:

I think they were the original screw gates I took off, so they've been there some time. The maillons have been done up with a spanner, pretty tight I think. It's all steel kit so pretty heavy, not much use on a normal rack, and they'd be a hassle to undo, so hopefully no one will be a enough of an arse to nick them!

In reply to Gary Gibson:

It's not that they don't understand the damage they do, it's that they don't care, as Gary in a Santa Suit or the BMC will do it!

I have had 'discussions' with people about this, and Moss rake especially because it is easy to rig from one route to the next, to be told that those mentioned above are supposed to check and replace them.

In reply to johncook:

Interestingly I've not come across a group like this in my plentiful visits to lower grade sport crags around the Peak, but this might be because I generally climb at weekends and week day evenings only due to work.

Interestingly, the krabs we removed last night from the routes were all steel ones. So whilst the bottom corners of them are definitely all shiny, I wouldn't actually describe them as worn. The krab in the photos in my first post on this thread was aluminium and heavily worn.

The big old krab that was on the shared lower off for Footsie 100 (6b+) and it's sibling lines has a gate that has jammed, the screwgate was moveable with a leatherman but I could only open it with gate with some gentle hammering and then levering. I guess people had been threading that as if it was a ring, which whilst safe means all the rope wear would be on the same corner of the krab, unlike a ring which can move and wear is shared over all around the circle. I've tried cleaning the krab up today with some WD40 but the gate still hardly moves, but the other two krabs are perfectly serviceable.

I think it was Nick Taylor and John Allen who bolted most of the library routes, so they might be Nick's steel krabs. I'll happily return them to Nick (or whoever else put them there) if that's the case as they could be used elsewhere. If not I can hang onto them and when I next do a route at Goddard's or somewhere like that, that has some alloy snap link at anchors, I can replace it with one of these sturdy steel screwgates.

In reply to TobyA:

I agree that rings attached with maillons are a good system. However the manufacturer recommended tightening torque for maillons is only about 9Nm, ie just nipped up with a spanner.

If someone if using a spanner to nick maillons , overtightening is not going to stop them.

Its 50 years since I studied materials science but a quick google suggests SCC is possible in overstressed stainless steels, worth some research?

In reply to TobyA:

Good work, Toby!

Just curious about one thing: in those two pictures, the shiny, newly attached maillons and rings look like they’re Stainless Steel, whereas the the older bolts, hangers and chains are almost certainly non-stainless.

If that is the case, galvanic corrosion could result in more rapid deterioration of the weaker metallic elements (non-stainless) in the system, including the original bolts, although this is much more of an issue on crags closer to the coast than the Stoney Quarries!

The ideal solution would be to install completely new lower-offs, utilising Stainless gear throughout, but I realise the funds for this are lacking.
 

The other solution would be to replace those worn out krabs with non-stainless maillons and rings… far cheaper than stainless and inline with the quality of the existing installations.

Pete.

In reply to Pete O'Donovan:

This was my only thought as well, but all I know about galvanic corrosion is what I've read about it on UKC threads (normally Beardy Mike's contributions!), and I'm a social scientist, very much not a material scientist! So that's sort of why I asked. I don't have the skills or knowledge on the actual drilling to be able to replace lower offs myself and, as you say, I suspect there isn't really the money anywhere to replace whole cliff's worth of gear - these routes are actually quite new compared to some of the ones that, for example, Gary has been re-equipping at Harpur Hill. So I suspect the oldest routes are logically the ones where bolts and/or lower-offs will be replaced first.

Any engineers who really understand this stuff I'd be very happy to hear from though - on the galvanic corrosion risk. I suspect Mark (who is an engineer if I remember correctly) and others who run the Peak Bolt Fund do have some sense of these issues, so I suspect Mark didn't think it was likely to be a huge issue as those are the maillons and rings he gave me to use.

In reply to Pete O'Donovan:

I agree it's a bit of a mess.  The Peak Bolt fund will supply the goods, that isn't a problem. What is lacking as always is someone skilled and willing especially at these lower grades is to pop in a couple of resins with maillons and rings.

In reply to TobyA:

Absolutely no criticism intended and good on you for stepping up to the plate.

Pete.

In reply to kristian:

Hi Kristian,

Am I right in thinking that most/all of the gear the PBF supplies to re-equippers is Stainless?

If so, maybe there is a need for non-stainless maillons and rings being made available for locations like those in this thread?

Let’s face it, whether we like them or not (I don't!) these Derbyshire quarries, featuring sometimes 'questionable' rock, have become extremely popular and therefore deserve consideration from an organisation calling itself the Peak Bolt Fund.

Maybe expecting people to be experienced enough to confidently “pop in a couple of resins with maillons and rings” is stretching it a bit far, but I think if you could offer non-stainless maillons and rings for replacing dangerously degraded lower-off krabs on existing non-stainless bolts, hangers and chains, this would be a positive step forward.

Pete.

In reply to TobyA:

Happy to point you at some stuff when I get home.

In reply to Pete O'Donovan:

It's definitely all stainless. 

There is no reason to skimp on the Moss Rake slab because that little section of the quarry looks quite solid but yes maybe on the buttresses of questionable stability and dubious access

I think there is plenty enough scrap to be recycled off other re-equipped routes and from rope access bins to meet that demand so that would potentially cost nothing. I would definitely want that behaviour to be separate from the bolt fund. 

In reply to kristian:

I agree with you about re-equipping anything on those 'Jenga' walls in the quarries. Just let them collapse (hopefully without injuring anyone) and be forgotten.

Rope Access castoffs (3 years before renewal?) is definitely a source worth looking at.

Pete.

In reply to TobyA:

About 3 years ago I installed steel screwgates on the left end of Horse Thief on most routes. They quickly went, within weeks!

I have had words with one climbing club on Moss rake for rigging top ropes through the fixed gear.  I have commented to a couple of 'instructors' about best practice, with the 'they are there for all to use and the BMC look after this kind of safety equipment', response!

I have also talked to several small groups, where there was one or two leaders who were rigging top ropes through gear for their less experience friends. These were mostly apologetic and accepted that they should alter their system. At least one of these groups sought advice on how the last man could safely recover their quick draws.

In my experience it is not the people transitioning from indoors, who do not know better, who are the problem. Usually if you talk to them and help they accept it. Mostly it is 'experienced/qualified' people who should know better and react in a 'not helpful way'!

In reply to TobyA:

As promised, a trip back to your GCSE chemistry explaining Galvanic corrosion and guidance from the BMC Technical Committee:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/media/files/Gear/Bolts%20A%20Guide%20for%20Install... - We (technical committee) are clear that metals shouldn't be mixed in belays to maximise the lifetime of the belay anchor.

The short explanation of how it works is that when you have two dissimilar metals (an anode, a cathode) and an electrolyte (a liquid which is capable of conducting electricity, this includes rainwater/ seawater) you have a battery. The anode has the lowest anodic index (stainless steel is ~0.6V, carbon steels are 0.85V) so in the case of the battery you have set up with the carbon steel anchor and chain, stainless steel mallion/ ring and rainwater the carbon steel anchor and chain would act as the anode making it corrode more quickly than it was corroding when only carbon steel parts were included in the system (galvanic corrosion would not have been a concern previously as the only other metal the anchor would have been exposed to is aluminium from karabiners which will only be present in very small quantities).

There is a good article about this from The Welding Institute (TWI) on the subject here:

https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/faq-what-is-galvanic-co....

Source for the anodic indexes:

https://www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm (not the highest quality source of data so exact values may be a little off, but it's good enough for the purposes of this discussion).

In short:

Stainless mallion and ring will speed up the rate of galvanic corrosion which the existing anchor will be subjected to.

In reply to kristian:

Yes but a steel maillon is going to last a while as is the ring.

And they are intrinsically replaceable! What's been done there just requires a ring to be replaced now and again and because they can rotate the wear is less likely to be focussed on one point.

I'd say that was a good long term solution?

In reply to Andy Say:

How is that a good long term solution, the bolts and chain are still sat there rusting away regardless of how many times the ring is replaced.

In reply to Andy Say:

As above, it's the fixed component which will preferentially corrode, not the stainless steel mallion and ring.

I am not a specialist in metallurgy so I don't know how much faster it will corrode unfortunately.

In reply to kristian:

Sorry. I thought this thread was about wear and tear damage.

Degradation over decades is maybe a separate discussion - one which Spencer and his merry band at the BMC can cogitate upon.

In reply to TobyA:great effort 

In reply to Andy Say:

It primarily is, but solving one issue can create another (in this case hopefully lesser) issue.

Tech Committee is there to provide guidance about good practice and assistance with technical queries resulting from crag maintenance work among various other things. I am making an effort to increase the visibility of the committee and the stuff we have created to help improve the safety of British climbers.

In reply to TobyA:

This topic once again points at how many people are enjoying these routes but so few are willing to put effort/money actually into maintaining fixed gear. To my knowledge there are around 10 people actively re bolting stuff in the peak district. Go to horseshoe on a Saturday afternoon and see how much abuse a popular 6a gets. Hats off to Kristian/seb/paul/Simon cundy/vince/Marc b/toby/zippy and historically gary g and anyone else who put a few hours in to maintain and clean up stuff. 

In reply to FBSF:

And Mark Rankine

In reply to Stoney Boy:

Andy Morris has also been developing areas this year too. I first met Andy and Mark at Peter Dale back early spring. Andy and Mark have both added routes there and re-equipped some of the original lines from the early 90s.

In reply to FBSF:

This.

In the upper grades we have people like Kristian, Jon, Seb, etc. doing sterling work in replacing worn gear, while in the lower grades the attitude seems to be "leave it to Gary", and as the man himself said earlier in this thread, he's approaching a point in his life where he can't keep doing it much longer.

Contrast this with what I've experienced in Catalunya (Spain) over the past couple of decades and the difference is startling. There, I know dozens of climbers who own their own drill and are regularly involved in re-equipping older routes (as well as establishing new ones), often out of their own pockets. It's not an ego thing, it's just done out of a sense of pride and responsibility in their local crags.

When I'm out climbing with my buddies there, we nearly always put a couple of new lower-off units in the sack in case we come across stuff that needs replacing (glue-in gear needs a more planned approach).

I'm willing to bet that 99% of Peak sport climbers don't even carry a spanner (for the purpose of tightening up nuts that have become loose on expansion bolts) in their packs!

Like it or loath it, low-to-mid-grade sport climbing in Peak District quarries is going to become more and more popular and the in-situ gear is going to subjected to more and more wear, so just leaving upkeep to the odd volunteer (Toby, in this case) is simply not enough...

Pete.

In reply to johncook:

There's no talking to some folk...

The common sense answer is that all future lower-off replacements should be done with gear that makes it impossible to thread the rope through anywhere but the welded ring.

Pete.

In reply to TobyA:

Id also add I was in deep rake a few times over the last few weeks and some of the climbers I spoke to were genuinely surprised that the bolts used to equip the cliff were supplied by the first ascensionist and all materials are bought /fixed by them. I was trying to not suggest that its actually a crack undercover bmc  squad that magically replace gear at night during a full moon.

In reply to FBSF:

No wonder the BMC’s books are in such bad shape.

In reply to FBSF:

As I’ve said in a previous thread we met a group at Harpur Hill top roping directly through the belay rings. When we explained the correct procedure and etiquette, they were surprised and genuinely thought someone got paid to replace them! We did put them right on this one re Gary and all his hard work paid for from his own pocket, they listened and said they would top rope of their own gear in the future. 

In reply to Pete O'Donovan:

Exactly this.  I have a sense that other bolt fund areas in the UK have a volunteer base covering a broader spectrum of grades, for example Dorst, N Wales, Cumbria and Yorkshire. Perhaps that is because of the Gary Machine. 

I must confess that the majority of the routes I have re-equipped (only about 70 from 9a to 6c+) have been lines of interest to me personally. 

Unfortunately I'm not that motivated to equip easier routes at venues I don't frequent yet. I'm sure I'd not be alone in this. So yes it would be great if more people could get involved.

There is definitely a lack of cragsmanship but there is no shortage of "spanners" at the crag.

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks for mention Toby. I put quite a few hours into rebolting Peter Dale last year, with a lot of help from Mark R and also Matthew Thompson. As someone who only ticks the odd 7a once in a while, I was keen and excited to see support from the PBF going towards lower grade routes on a natural limestone crag, something we don't have much of in the Peak (most of the lower grade sport routes are on quarried rock and as a result are often not in the prettiest locations).

Followed this thread with interest and have a question to put out there - who should make the decisions about which crags are worth investing in rebolting? Should it be bolt fund volunteers? People who donate the money? Both? Or all of the sport climbing community?

I understand the point of view that it makes sense when you are volunteering to rebolt lines which you have a vested interest in, but I also think its perhaps a little unfair that *in my experience* the lower grade crags seem to be seen by many higher grade climbers (in fairness often those doing the majority of the hard work) as not worth the money. There are good lower grade routes on solid walls around the Peak from Stoney quarries to smalldale and others which will need work in the next few years. There might be volunteers willing to do the work like myself and Toby, but if we don't get the go ahead to spend bolt fund cash on bolts because some bolt fund members don't think its worth it, then it'll have to come out of the pockets of the volunteers doing the drilling which doesn't seem entirely fair.

To be clear - I'm only talking about rebolting here, not development of new routes which I think should come from the individuals.

In reply to andymorris17:

I'd be very happy to replace worn lower offs and bolts etc. I've got the tools just lack the knowledge of bolting with resin etc. Happy to be taught.

As a low grade warrior myself I don't see a problem with me supplying the required materials personally  just would be good if someone had a spare hour to show me how to use resin etc. Fairly happy slapping expansion bolts around as I've done a few.

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

I can show you Euan. Just not this trip to the Peak as I don't have my drill or any bolts with me.

In reply to andymorris17:

I hear what you're saying. Before Peter Dale and Lime Kiln there had been very few requests for Bolt Fund bolts on the lower grade crags. That does seem to be changing now.

On occasions we as a group have discussed and rejected some proposals because of rock stability and uncertain access.

One particular minor quarry had even been recently listed on Rightmove so it didn't seem sensible at that point to had out hundreds of pounds of bolts. We were then accused of being elitist and corrupt and only interested hard routes. 

There has also been countless people attending bolting workshops from across the grade spectrum but very few volunteers come from that so we end up being left with the same old faces bolting what we want and what we are aware of.

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

You'll need a few extra tools for resin bolts and it would be best to use bolts and resin supplied by the bolt fund. I'm sure myself or Mark can show you how. Moss Rake is only 30 minutes away and is probably a good place to start.

In reply to kristian:

A few years ago I remember contacting the Peak Bolt Fund on behalf of my local club's committee to clarify if it was worth donating money to you guys to support rebolting low grade routes but was told that the money would be better targeted if it was sent to Gary. While it was honest it didn't do anything to help the image of the Peak Bolt Fund turning its nose up at low grade routes.

In reply to andymorris17:

I think the PBF support should go to anyone willing to put the work in, be that re-bolting the Peak's premier high grade routes or accessible beginner routes. I would hope that the PBF aren't turning down the offers to retro low grade sport areas and it's more a function of those people keen on retro bolting are normally very experienced sport climbers operating at higher grades rebolting routes they are keen on.

I think the only caveat should be the stability/safety/quality of the rock. There is some absolute choss that's been bolted and I would discourage replacing those bolts. 

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

I'm pretty sure when I first joined the BMC Technical Committee Dan M was organizing some "How to Bolt" workshops in the Peak. If the PBF are short of suitable experienced bolters (always the case!) I'm sure we could look into organizing another workshop.

In reply to spenser:

It was an honest reply and nothing to do with turning our noses up at low grade sport climbs. 

There were few reasons that response was given at the time. 

We had drawn up a database of routes that needed re-equipping and that list was drawn up by people that were operating in the 7+ grade and a lot of these routes were not on Gary's radar. It was was quite clear to see for example that at crags like Two Tier Gary had already rebolting his and many other people's routes up to about 7b with resin staple bolts but a lot of the bolts on routes above that grade were rusting away. He wasn't going to re-equip Raven Tor or the Cornices and others high 7s & 8s down the dales or at Lorry/Long quarry and nore should he. Many of these routes were and remain in a really poor state. That had been our focus and for a time money really wasn't the problem it was manpower. By taking a donation from a club for low grade sport routes that would have only deprived Gary of funds because we were making very little headway on our list. If however a club were to come forward and offer their time that would have been more valuable than the donation its self. 

Sometimes the PBF have had a surplus of bolts and perishable resin because there was no one to put them in, these on occasions have been donated to Gary. 

Just as an overview the Peak Bolt Fund has consisted on average of only one or two semi active volunteers who have achieved only a fraction of what Gary has and a lot of his work is self funded.

That was then but now that Gary is winding down his rebolting efforts it is clear that more volunteers and especially those interested in the lower grades 4-6 need to step forward to fill the void.

In reply to galpinos:

Arranging workshops has never been a problem. They certainly don't generate a volunteer army. I think Mark R has had more success by taking out keen individuals and showing them one to one.

In reply to kristian:

Good post Kristian.

There will most likely be a meet at some point when the weather deteriorates at Colehill to continue the replacement of belays and a lot of old bolts. We started in March and there is still much to be done at this popular quarry. The top of the crag needs to be scaled as well and this is physical work.

Ill put a post out nearer the time.  

In reply to kristian:

At some point all those staples will require changing on Two Tier....Big job.

Ill also chuck in the hat a revamp of Lower Staden. Shady venue with old bolts that needs a tidy up.

In reply to Stoney Boy:

Nice one Simon. Thank you.

In reply to kristian:

Thanks Kristian. I'm glad to hear that the you've come together and discussed as a group where rebolting efforts/money should be put in the past. I hope the group will continue to do this in future.

This was more where my interest lie, in how that decision gets made rather than implying in any way that the PBF is elitist/doesn't care about easier routes which I really don't believe. Hopefully that was clear!

It sounds as if sensible decisions are being made already, I think your points about rock quality and access are important and that they should be evaluated before making decisions. Nobody who donates wants to see a waste of funds on bolts in dangerous rock.

If there's any lower grade crags which need work I'll be up to help out again, whether that's at moss rake, horse thief or anywhere else. 

In reply to Stoney Boy:

I did a couple of the easier lower Staden routes last year, or the year before. I got the distinct impression we were the first people there in a long time!

In reply to kristian:

Thanks Kristian, I was not criticising, just acknowledging that things said in the past haven't necessarily helped with that image of the Peak Bolt Fund.

Personally I find little enjoyment from sport climbing and am already actively involved with other voluntary stuff related to climbing so don't want to/ won't volunteer but am happy to send something to the membership of the Oread if you want volunteers? 

In reply to TobyA:

It really does seem like the BMC should be a playing a role here in communicating to new climbers what the etiquette is when moving to climbing outdoors, and how hardware is funded and maintained.

A combination of some posters at climbing walls that look like they were designed this century, and getting the absolute mess of a website and social media presence sorted.

Case in point : https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climb-outside-how-to-start-rock-climbing-outdoors 

In reply to midgen:

This was discussed at Tech Committee last week. Plan is to have some plaques with QR codes that lead to an updated part of the website with useful information like is held here (but obviously for climbing), there were going to be 3 categories I think? Independent but inexperienced indoor climber, Independent indoor climber looking to start leading and training and people looking to transition to outdoor stuff.

https://hillwalking.thebmc.co.uk/

The BMC are aware that their website is an irreparable mess (I raised it at several AGMs, people have raised it on here many times etc etc), but the process of updating it has not been very fast.

In reply to galpinos:

That is exactly how it works assuming that where you said “retro bolting” you actually meant “re-bolting”.  

To expand a bit on the Peak Bolt Fund in case there are any misunderstandings - first off it is simply a fund you can donate to which buys the kit so other climbers can re-equip routes in the Peak District. It is not an organisation.

The individuals undertaking the work are all doing it voluntarily and independently. Some are longstanding stalwarts like Kristian and Mark whilst others have just rebolted a single route. We have a private Facebook group to discuss for the re-bolters to discuss logistics, purchasing new kit, technical matters and occasionally ethics. 

Very occasionally we will have a get together. I’m trying to make this an annual occurrence and publicise it so all are welcome and I’ll bring the bank statements so you can see how the money has been spent and meet those doing the work. The last was at the Fat Cat in Sheffield in November. Nobody outside the usual team came which I’m taking as a positive that people are happy with what we are doing! . My role is to look after the bank accounts and pay for kit either directly or reimburse equippers who have bought it. 

The Peak Bolt Fund is open to support reequipping routes at any grade in the Peak. However, historically most of the work has been on harder routes on natural limestone. This isn’t a strategy it’s just the way things have worked out especially as the vast majority of re-equipping in quarries has been done by Gary Gibson. However, over the last 12 months we have done more here to pick up the slack as Gary is in poor health.

We require regular donations to buy the kit but to date thanks to the continuous and generous support of climbers and climbing organisations the Fund has never been short of money to buy bolts and equipment. 😘 

Therefore if you have a route or crag you want to re-equip then get in touch as we can provide the means. Whilst it is best that you have prior experience of placing bolts, however, if required, we can also arrange training. It is also a good idea to be a BMC member as this will provide you with liability cover. 

It’s generally best that the route or routes you want to reequip are ones you are familiar with so bolts are placed in optimal clipping positions ensuring they don’t interfere with adjacent routes. 

So bearing the above in mind should you ever catch yourself saying “somebody should re-bolt that” then remind yourself that that ‘somebody’ could be you…

Of course many don’t have the time and inclination and that’s all good because you can contribute by making donations either to PayPal https://tinyurl.com/4sdwvu6e or direct to our bank account which is: Peak Bolt Fund 544134 50061704

(Some climbers set up a monthly standing order 👍🏻)

Simon Lee

In reply to UKB Shark:

I did indeed!

Thanks for the comprehensive post.

In reply to midgen:

One of the problems with the old website is it was designed as a news site, old/broken links are problematic. The new site which is coming will be based around evergreen content. Meanwhile, this is the content I updated most recently:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/safer-sport-climbing

Kris is correct about workshops not generating many new volunteers, although Mark attended one and is now passing on his skills directly as well as being pretty active himself. Happy to run a workshop if there is enough interest though.

In reply to UKB Shark:

Nothing to celebrate if this is due to a supply issue (ie. more needs to be done but there are not enough volunteers to do it). Also if there is enough money why are we in a situation where Gary says the money he receives for re-equiping in the Peak doesn't come close to covering his costs for bolts and equipment.

In reply to Offwidth:

I can only speak on behalf of the Peak Bolt Fund so you’d have to ask him and yes it is something to celebrate that anytime previously that we look to be running low on funds and put a call out to that effect then climbers respond. 

In reply to UKB Shark:

I agree that's good news but if there is currently spare funding why not buy stuff for Gary in the short time remaining that he is still re-equiping (subject to not rebolting choss)?

In reply to TobyA:

Nice one Toby 👍🏻 Used the new lower offs today, thanks for the good work.

Chris

In reply to Offwidth:

I didn’t say the Bolt Fund has ‘spare funding’ I said it had never been ‘short of money’ and it’s weird you making that suggestion as you know full well that Gary isn’t in any fit state to do any rebolting currently.

To expand a bit on the finances James Jacobs who looked after the money previously had the approach of only actively raising money when we needed it rather than build up a reserve or whatever. It’s an approach we were all happy with and I’ve continued that approach now I’ve taken over from James. If we look like we might run out of inventory in a few months typically we pop a few posts on social media to try and top up the account.

Looking forward one of our sources of income is the donation buckets at the local climbing walls has declined as people aren’t carrying cash these days. It’s possible that this combined with the potential increase in demand for kit from the rebolters might mean we have to up our fundraising game a bit. 

But going back to your question, which is entirely academic (given we intentionally don’t carry “spare funds” and Gary’s condition), people donate to the PBF and it’s work for their own variety of reasons in the same way people donate to Gary’s fund and his work for their own variety of reasons and would have a general expectation of how their money would be deployed. I don’t think that expectation would ever include diverting it to the others bolt fund given both funds are well known. Those are just my opinions and anything of this nature would be subject to a group discussion on Facebook or at the annual meeting. 

In reply to UKB Shark:

Have you considered getting a QR code set up taking people to the fund's PayPal page to donate? Heya around the not carrying cash issue?

In reply to spenser:

Uncanny! It was discussed on the FB page yesterday and is on my to do list  

In reply to UKB Shark:

I've seen it used a few times over the last couple of months, it makes it a lot easier to donate money! I'm not looking on the Facebook page, honest!

In reply to TobyA:my friends were at Horse Thief tge other with groups top roping their clients through tge belays without consitge consequences of their actions to make money!

In reply to spenser:

Surface treatment green only around the area where rope wear occurs. When the green is gone due for replacement. Might not be practical or definitive enough.

Basically imagine the original surface of worn surfaces that's gone was green and nothing else green. No more green is bad.

It may impose an unwelcome liability on the manufacture.

In reply to TobyA:but they used old bolt hangers from Horseshoe which wasn’t wise and a lot were bolted by myself 

In reply to UKB Shark:

I'm happy to stick my hand up for helping out with re-bolting, (subject to training), so is there a contact name and number/email to reach out to?

In reply to Ardo:

Great. Message us via the Facebook page with the routes you are thinking of re-equipping and we can take it from there 

https://www.facebook.com/thepeakboltfund

In reply to UKB Shark:

I’ve arranged this for Tues Nov 14th from 7pm in the upstairs room of the Fat Cat if anyone is interested 

Simon

In reply to TobyA:

I replaced quite a few at horsethief a little while back. but most of the maillons were wierdly swapped out for crap snap gates or rusty mallons, but I think most of the left wall is still some of my old kit, the right wall is old snap gates and screw gates again though.

was there today. And I'd loved to blame groups, but multiple old boys were just threading the anchor and top roping off of them. one in particular top roping his 200kg middle aged son and had the attitude that "its easy to replace them".

any way enough of the rant. Go for it, I think its great to have people giving back. Shame theres a few bad eggs in the community though.

In reply to Lukem6:

31 stone, that must have been impressive!

In reply to Lukem6:

You just gotta hate the multiple old boys....

I do think 'instructors and their groups' get a bad press here. They're all at Stanage where life is simple!

In reply to Andy Say:

yep all at mantel piece buttress and on the 'ologys.

In reply to Doghouse:

It was, he was veryu large and the harness wasnt fittting well. he mafe it up half of a few climbs. good on him for getting out. but  the old boy obviously knew he wasnt going to get to the top so was top roping on the mailons.

to add, I think instructors and coaches could do better at role modeling, and would love to see the industry up its game. but thats a bigger conversation for a bigger thread.