UKH

Sick of threading belays we all have old carabiners just stick them on the bolts and leave them. Preferably 2 on a belay.

Why isnt this common place if they dont look good enough replace with one of your old ones or thread it.

If this became common practice would save belay replacement plus time may also stop rethreading cock ups.

Answers on a post card please.

Can we have some comments on why this is a bad idea?

Because in no time at all any aluminium crab will be a corroded mess with a stuck gate that the “crag guardian” has to go sort out with a hacksaw. It just creates unnecessary work for the type of people who already spend a lot of time they could be climbing doing stewardship.

Two rings is the answer. If you don’t know how to thread then learn.

Basically because b*stards just steal them

That was my thought! If you find a coroded one then feel free to remove it and replace should be everyone has old biners! 

As mentioned, biners corrode, seize up or get nicked.

It doesn't take long to thread rings if you're used to it, they're a good solution. 

But a similar solution that is effectively a permanent carabiners is Mussy Hooks. Probably quite expensive to put on all routes, can be used incorrectly (there was a recent accident using them), but otherwise nice to find at the top of a route. 

They probably work well in US desert locations but I’m not so sure the gate and spring are up to withstanding the U.K. climate…

I left carabiners on all the anchors at Horsethief quarry as there seemed to be a lot of people top-roping through the fixed anchors. Two weeks later every one had gone and people were back to top-roping through the fixed gear. If people treated the anchors with respect replacement would be minimised. (Quite a lot of those using the fixed gear to top-rope through were 'commercial' groups, with leaders who should know better!)

If all users looked at these carabiners, and replaced any that were starting to look iffy, there would be no problem with 'seized' gates etc. The problem is that most climbers expect someone else to look after fixed gear, or clean routes, or collect litter from the bottom of crags etc. I have even been told that it is OK to top-rope through the fixed gear (By an 'instructor'!) because the BMC own Horseshoe quarry and will replace any worn gear!

Thanks John. Constructive comment there.

On another note the person who called me a bellend would you like to me  at a crag of your choice to discuss im sure I will change your mind rather quickly!

My pros and cons:

Pros of the carabiner suggestion...

When new, very quick and easy to clip and lower.

When new, Low chance of clipping incorrectly 

Cons:

The gate may seize closed over time, Making it very difficult to remove and replace. 

The gate spring may fail and no longer closes, reducing its safety significantly.

The crab gets worn through repeated lowering off in the same place, causing a worn notch, reducing the crab strength.

Need to take spare crabs/hacksaw in case anchor is suboptimal.

Ring pros:

The ring will spin, making any wear reasonably even, meaning no worn notch occurs.

No gate mechanism failure issue.

No need to take saw/crab up a route.

Ring cons:

Takes slightly longer to thread and lower. 

Possibility of threading failure.

Think that's my general thoughts on it. I'd take a Ring any day. The number of times I've seen a dodgy worn crab at the top of a route and opted to thread the Ring it was attached to instead... plenty of times! Crabs are very annoying imo.

Edit, typo

Permanent crabs on lower offs are an awful idea. We're coming up to the start of the sport season and if every route had two carabiners at the top of each route all winter it'd be a nightmare.

It's impossible to determine whether or not a biner is going to be safe to hold a lower off/belay. With all the cyclic loading they would receive it wouldn't be out of the question for them to fail at a very low figure. It wouldn't be likely, but I would much rather take the time to use a carabiner that I know with near 100% certainty is safe and looked after.

Also many climbers (myself included) are not flush with cash, and cannot put in the investment to replace crabs, even if it isn't realistically a huge amount. Fixed gear is much harder wearing, and while more expensive, is cheaper for all in the long run.

I agree with all that is said about carabiners, which do need replacing often, but they are relatively cheap and easy. The people who steal them make things difficult.

I have threaded more anchors than I care to think about. The problem is the number of people who top-rope through the fixed gear, causing excessive wear, and the number of people who are not good at threading. (I have traversed from one route anchor to the next, to sort out someone who was trying to die by threading incorrectly.) People need to make sure they are competent at threading the small variety of anchors that are at the tops of routes, before they try it for real!

As above, no.  They corrode and seize up. You can't just "remove it and replace" as you'd need to take up a hacksaw or other tool. The only carabiners that would be acceptable would be fixed stainless steel ones but even these would wear quicker through top roping than rings.

I've got to the top of plenty of routes where someone's left a screwgate and had to thread anyway as it's jammed, corroded and dubious.  Corroded gear gets in the way too. 

Also fixed crabs can get a very sharp edge, with the rope constantly going in exactly the same orientation, especially alloy ones that wear quickly. Sharp edges can cut climbing ropes very easily, there was a death of a very good climber and guide in the not too distant past caused by fixed karabiners that had worn into a very sharp edge.

I think that the reason a lot of people think that it’s ok to clip insitu crabs and or top rope from lower offs is that this is what they do automatically at indoor climbing walls. 
We have all seen climbers who are on their early outside visits and think that things are just like indoors except for the chance of rain. 

People should only top rope through their own kit. NEVER through the fixed gear.

If a carabiner is getting stiff/corroded, replace it. If everyone did that they would not get bad.

The problem is that many climbers think it is someone else's job to maintain routes and the gear, and never think of doing it themselves.

If you find threading rings too onerous then by all means feel free to leave some screwgates on every route you climb. Someone will tidy up after you before long and you probably won't even hear anyone complaining.

That was uncalled for.  Somewhat ironically though, tacitly offering someone out for a punch up because you don't like something they said on here is very much the sort of thing a total bellend might do.

I was going to ask about that. I was wondering how the OP intended to convince 39 people and counting otherwise. From what we've seen so far charming them around with clever wit doesn't hold much promise, so I'm not sure what the plan was that would have them all go away with a different opinion.

That is not what happens though. Just go to any sport crag and you'll see people who should know better top roping off the in-situ gear. Therefore the best set up is the one that wears the least when people misuse it.

The problem is that many climbers want to make things more convenient without thinking that it will make maintenance of the gear more frequent and expensive. 

If you're going to make passive aggressive threats in your posts I think it really behoves you to read it through carefully before hitting "post message" to ensure it makes sense. :⁠-⁠) Now we're all left wondering what the person needs to do with you at a crag of their choice in order have their mind changed - personally I'm going for "...make beautiful love with...", so much more inspiring than simply "meet".

There are plenty of routes I've climbed in Peak quarries where the lower off is an oldish alloy krab, and they do get replaced sometimes if they seem particularly well used. Indeed I'm wondering when the new routers like Gary G and Nick T are going to finish their stock of 90s and even 80s snap gates and we're going to move on to krabs of this century! :⁠-⁠) I'm trying to remember where I saw a rather artfully used DMM Mamba, with it's perma draw removed, on a lower off. That would have required a spanner though as it was held on by a million.

😅😅 Watch out everyone!! The toughest guy in climbing is looking for trouble😅😅

Top roping through staples or mallions is bad because the rope runs over them in a fixed position, but a lot of anchors have rings which can spin around.

Realistically, how much top roping would have to be done on them before they are even slightly worn?!  I think that would probably be ok.

The tat karibiner idea is terrible though.  Aluminium krabs aren't designed to be left outside in all weathers and will quickly corrode, and likely fail at some point.

Technical answer is because Aluminium and Stainless are quite far apart on the galvanic corrosion scale and the aluminium will be compromised and become pitted in no time at all. Pitting is like Swiss cheese, which makes the biner really weak. Its a really dumb idea. Sorry...

I sometimes wonder about adding sacrificial anodes to bolts/belays to extend bolt life. No idea if it would be worthwhile.

To OP. I don't think this a particularly great idea unfortunately.

Interestingly in some US areas route equippers are actively advocating for inexperienced people to top rope directly through the fixed gear rather than using their own on the basis that it's safer. I think the idea is that in a group with one experienced person, the experienced person threads the anchor first, then everyone top ropes through that. Then no-one ends up at the top re-threading an anchor for the first time while everyone else is impatient to move on/shouting instructions up at them and hoping they do it right. Goes against the general feeling in this thread and my own, but if it's the equippers/developers saying it, then it's got some weight.

It's already done, some bolts and hangers have cathodic protection with sacrificial material (It's called galv/zinc steel 🤣)

However in the majority (not 100%) of areas 316 stainless is better

That seems a bit excessive.

Ha.  Muphry's law in action! It's always the same, any time you criticise someone else for poor proofreading.

That’s crossed my mind too. I was thinking along the lines of using steel washers with stainless expansion anchors to protect the bolt and nut…

50 plus now. Including me. The responses in this category no doubt swelled by the OPs offer. 

There's no issue if all the materials used are the same though. If it's a stainless bolt  adding a stainless biner would be fine as there's no anode or cathode to speak of. Then it comes down to environmental conditions, i.e. salts present or microbial activity.

I asked last year on this site whether I and others should be leaving double pairs of large stainless quick links on lower offs to save wear from lowering (and I guess others top roping) and make the fixed kit last longer. It seemed to go down badly. Which I never quite understood. 

Neither do I Dave.

Its maybe because the majority of the climbing community are bellends!

From now on I wont be spending my personal cash on bolts and belays probably over 1k so far!

The top is absolutely correct but you'd be surprised at how damaged some rings become as they don't always/often spin freely, and once slightly eroded that becomes a 'default' place to slide to.

I'm not going to argue with the point, but cyclic loading?.  This is a digression but that has a specific meaning I don't thin to be relevant here re. strain softening and hardening

If you have two bolts (perhaps with worn rings), one reasonably low key way to replace them is to remove the rings. Then indeed two locking biners with After closing the gate, a dab of glue (CA works on a pinch, epoxy is better do). Stops the from Being nicked and are often easier to replace (no need for angle grinder, good pliers are often enough to open them… but with glue they won’t be in working order… so less likely to be nicked). 

This is one of my points. If you dont like the look of a leaver biner or its getting a bit shit. Take it off, replace if you are able or use the ring.

Lots of belays have rings that wont freely spin.

Its all just a bit of crag common sense and giving a little for all instead of being selfish c..ts.

I would like to know how many of the dislikers have equipped routes at their own expense or replaced.

years ago most belays were just 2 bolts and a couple of old crabs infact some new routes and retro bolted routes are still equipped like that by some very well known climbers!

Yep thats what will happen unless you want bits of metal everwhere. Some belays are attached to p hangers or are p hangers isnt it best to have a couple of crabs on them!

The European Standard has always required ALL parts of the anchor are made of the same material and of 304 stainless steel or better.

But years ago people also equipped belays with stainless steel hangers on galvanised studs and then glued aluminium carabiners in place creating a situation which would become dangerous to people who don't know what they're looking at.

Even temporary carabiners can compromise the system, and personally I'm a bit surprised that as someone who equips routes you don't know that?

I 100% agree that running a toprope through rings is selfish which is why the protocol taught is that you should place extenders in the belay bolts, ie you preventing damage from toproping and putting the wear on your own equipment. In the states they suggest that the last person down abseils. They also usually have chains rather than rings which allows the leader to pre thread the rope and to then place an extender on the actual bolt thereby unloading the chains and minimising wear. This seems sensible to me but of course you can't do that with rings because it places the Load point for the top rop below the rings. Maybe it would be an idea to use a third high bolt place between the rings which would allow leaders to prethread the rings and clip an extender into the high bolt to deload the rings until the last climber descends. I realise that is an extra cost.

A properly equipped lower off should not twist the rope.  Adding a karabiner adds a 90 degree offset at each lower off.

Whats that got to do with a slice of bread. All lower offs are different! If you thread through alot of staples they properly piss your rope off!

Alot of the staples in portland look like they are fed up of being lowered off too!

Not really sure why you bothered creating a poll if you're so determined not to listen to the result or to people's well-reasoned explanations of the numerous reasons why your plan wouldn't work very well. Nobody disputes that it's frustrating to see people abusing the fixed gear by top-roping through it, but constant ad-hoc replacement of random retired aluminium carabiners is clearly not the answer.

Trust my life to whatever crappy krab that an unknown person has deemed rubbish enough to leave behind? 

Nope.

Thanks for this thread, some absolutely peak UKC going on here.

As of just now, it looks like you need to meet 87 people at the crag of their choice, not sure if you could maybe double or triple up some of them to reduce the number of days out... How busy is you calendar?

On a serious note, it's important to realise the difference between what people should do in an ideal world and what people do do in the real world. Routes are equipped with the latter in mind - they don't include removable parts because in the real world people remove those parts.

Also, not sure if anyone said this already or not, but situ anchors are very overengineered and put in by experienced, trustworthy (hopefully) equippers. Some random person's "leaver beaner" is going to be the oldest and most knackered thing on their harness, was originally manufactured with weight in mind and strength only being "super good enough", was not designed to be left in corrosion rich locations in the long term, might have been dropped the height of the crag previously and could easily have been the bolt end of a quickdraw (and therefore covered in ragged, rope-tearing protrusions where bolt hangars bit into it over its life).