UKH

Does your ambulance have winter or all-season tyres?

The reason I ask is that on a local social media group someone was pleading for people to clear the roads so that emergency vehicles could get through because "the council is doesn't bother to plough side roads*".  I'm quite happy to clear the footway but the road is another scale of effort altogether (and there are a lot of elderly folks on our street so I wouldn't get much help).

I was just wondering whether the emergency services do actually take bad weather in to account when equipping their vehicles...

* Which is actually demonstrably untrue.  It's just that they do not have unlimited resources at their disposal and they have to prioritise the allocation of said resources, so side roads get done after main roads - and some of the main roads have been getting on for welly-deep round here.  Our street is lovely and quiet at the moment because the rat-runners are staying away

In reply to Martin W:

Not round here. Normal tires

In reply to Martin W:

There have been quite a few stories in the press about various trusts using Michelin CrossClimates and the like. 

The https://improvement.nhs.uk/documents/4964/20190327_National_Ambulance_Vehic... specification states 'All Season'...

In reply to Stichtplate:

That's surprising to me..., but what do I know..

In reply to Martin W:

The road through our village seems to be snowier than normal.  I think the lower traffic levels - especially with schools out - means there’s a lot less clearance by vehicle traffic going on.  Then, once the road is white the asphalt stops absorbing sunlight and the melt slows down even more.

In reply to Martin W:

It depends on the council. Certainly for Highland Council, they don't grit or plough side roads until the volume of complaints from residents reaches a certain level. And it's definitely not a case of prioritising main roads, it's a case of "main roads done mainly the same day as the snow but 4 or 5 days later side-roads still not gritted or ploughed". I'm sure that down in tropical England you can explain this away in terms of limited numbers of winter vehicles because, after all, it only snows 3 or 4 days a year and having an expensive gritter rusting away in a shed for the other 362 days isn't such an awesome investment. But in Northern Scotland it's definitely a policy decision not to prioritise snow clearance.

In reply to Dave B:

I think most people would be shocked at the general level of wear and tear on the trucks. Unless it’s vital it rarely gets fixed.

Those nice shiny trucks you see on “Ambulance” et al... hand picked, brought in from out of sector and parked up with a “do not use, BBC filming” note stuck on the windscreen 

but at least they’re in better nick than most of the stations.

In reply to Martin W:

YAS general only on their 4x4 vehicles - all season tyres..... After a several embarrassing instance of shine new 4x4 sprinters getting stuck on wet grass of football pitches.

In reply to Stichtplate:

Haha, that's so true!

There are a couple of ambulance stations in the Highlands which each have a 4wd ambulance, but overall, yes, in conditions like we've got just now, access away from the main roads can be a problem. Sliding on ice is the worst. For particularly hard to reach places we could call in Special Operations resources which have access to all-terrain vehicles, but we could be waiting a long time. 

Had an incident in Inverness 5 years ago when 2 fire appliances going to the same job both crashed off the road, sliding on black ice. Unfortunately being in an emergency vehicle doesn't make driving in winter any easier than driving any other vehicle, with the added downside of getting no say in what time you have to make the journey or where you go

In reply to Martin W:

We have all season tyres our ambulances. But that doesn't change the fact that they are a 5T automatic (tiptronic) truck. When they start to slide they don't stop very easily regardless of the tyre type.

In reply to Martin W:

OK, useful info from all those in the know.  First off, I would emphasise that in the current conditions the emergency services crews are going even further above and beyond than usual, for which we should all be grateful.  I know I am.

Not so sure a policy of only using all-season tyres on 4x4 vehicles holds much water.  It is (or should be) generally recognised that a FWD vehicle on the winter or all-season tyres does better on snow or ice than anything with four-wheel or all-wheel drive on ordinary road tyres.  And regardless of your vehicle's drive system, the right tyres make braking so much less precarious (reference gld73's remarks about sliding on ice).

I have cleared my elderly neighbour's front path this morning, as well as both of ours, and the pavement, and dug our car out (neighbour's car lives in his garage).  There must be a ton and half of snow at least piled up on the front lawn and I am now officially jiggered, so unlikely to be clearing any roads soon.  Sorry.

In reply to gld73:

It was possibly back in the 90s when I lived in Scotland, but I remember a tragedy where an ambulance crashed because of ice or snow - I think in Kintail - and people died as a result. I'm sure there was inquiry afterwards. Does that ring a bell to anyone?

In reply to Martin W:

Just bog standard tyres.

I almost managed a handbreak turn last week in the carpark.

Last time was when the whole country was in snow 2010. I had a whale of a time skidding at work back then.

In reply to Martin W:

Just seems mad that all emergency vehicles, buses and local council services don't switch to proper non studded winter tyres in November, if only as a duty of care for their drivers, never mind the job they are supposed to be doing. 

In reply to summo:

I guess the problem is winter tyres are more pliable and designed to be used in cold/wet conditions. What of the days where it's relatively warm and dry? High speed driving on dry roads might induce more problems than summer tyres on truly winter road conditions. 

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

The optimum threshold is around +7c, so perhaps northern UK on winter tyres, southern UK all season. Summer tyres in snow is just madness. 

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Our winter tyres are designated as suitable for year round use. Being a softer rubber they will wear quicker in warm conditions, which is why we change back to normal tyres for the summer months.

Feel ashamed that our emergency workers are not being provided with winter tyres as standard for the coldest months - it would make them safer with more stopping power, never mind the ability to get to places in the snow.

Same with buses, no wonder they go into hibernation at the first hint of snow (which is just when people living on untreated side roads want to use public transport) if they aren't winter ready.

I don't disagree with either summo or JennyC completely, I'm just not sure that it'd solve more problems than it might produce.

I've driven winter tyres in warmer than probably optimal conditions and there's a marked difference in how the act when hard cornering and braking. 

Suspect, knowing people in the game, that tyres are possibly way down the list of desirables. 

Anyway, I sincerely wish all crews having to drive in these conditions, safe travels. 

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

It would likely save money long term, tyres for a whole fleet will be cheaper than a vehicle or person. Not to mention response times. As for wear and grip, it's just a matter of switching to the right tyres at the right time of year and back again when spring comes. Not running tyres under 4 or 5mm will help massively too.  Budget wise it's peanuts for a massive improvement in safety. 

In reply to Martin W:

When it is really bad here, which pretty rare, standard Police cars are useless and the Council’s Countryside service make a few of their 4x4 vehicles available.

In reply to summo:

We have snow chains for the fire appliances.

In reply to Shaun mcmurrough:

Max speed with chains? 

In reply to Martin W:

It surprise me how frequently the gritting trucks get stuck / can't make it places in West Yorkshire....I suspect they have summer tyres.

In reply to Shaun mcmurrough: Snow chains are not very great for driving a bunch of miles in a hurry though anything bar thick snow/ice.  I wouldn't call them a great solution for most winter miles.

Even though the bin wagon needed them to get in/out of my road again this week

In reply to summo:

I've been retired since 2019 and I'm struggling remember..slow

I can only remember they were a pain to put on and off...and cleaning them every week as a routine stopped the clock.

As a driver I never used them..

I'll ask a friend for the speed limit...

In reply to wbo2:

I agree...they were always a last resort...

I was a driver for 10yrs and never used them.

In reply to HardenClimber:

I'll pass this on to someone who looks after them....😉

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

I drove my last set of winter tyres (before switching to all-seasons) for 18 months, because I was planning to get rid of the car (which eventually took longer than expected) and didn't want to have to pay for new tyres.  I noticed no appreciable difference in their behaviour throughout that time.  I do tend to avoid hard cornering and braking as much as possible i.e. I don't actively seek them out - at least on public roads - but the few times I did find myself having to make an unexpected rapid correction the tyres did exactly what I needed them to.  I think the dropoff in the performance of winter tyres in warmer weather is somewhat exaggerated.  It's certainly nothing like as noticeable as the difference between summer tyres on dry roads in the warmer months and cold, wet, snowy or icy roads at the other end of the year.

In reply to Shaun mcmurrough:

I just thought chains are the worst of all worlds, slow to fit, then slower to drive. 

In reply to summo:

I agree..deferential lock helped.....

In reply to HardenClimber:

That's more to do with 22t wagon than tyres

In reply to summo:

Probably, though you'd have to factor in the who is to change them and when. Are crews expected to maintain vehicles or would it have to be shipped off to the fitters? Don't know. 

Do you not suspect that someone has already counted the beans and determined it not worth it. Again, don't know. 

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

The only extra costs are the wheels themselves, not the tyres, as you still only drive on one set at time. Add in a max of 30mins per vehicle to change them. How much would it cost to replace a single ambulance? Council van? Or staff? The maths is simple, the problem is uk culture. You won't find anyone who have personally switched to winter tyres, saying they switched back to just using summer ones in snow because it wasn't worth it. 

I don't even know why insurance companies pay out when BMW drivers put their car in a ditch after 2cm of snow. 

In reply to summo:

Here in the Hautes-Alpes the person now responsible for school transport is new to her post. Back in December she saw there was some snow (maybe a cm, max 2) and decided to cancell all school buses for the rest of the day. Lots of complaints as its mostly a rural area & it meant parents needed to drive to schools to collect their kids at the end of the school day. Also lots of frantic phone calls from school heads etc wondering what was happening. Turns out she has never lived in the mountains before & had spent most of her life in Paris & nearby suburbs where snow rarely falls & also creates problems, partly as most Parisians have little experience of driving on snow & winter tyres are rare.  I assume someone has explained to her that a little snow doesn't stop the traffic here as there's been no repeat.

Here everybody eithers keeps winter tyres on their vehicles all year or changes tyres in November/December  & April/May. On occassion I've had to drive to Paris or southwards to Aix en Provence while I still had winter tyres on in March /April & never noticed any difference in performance.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

The newer all season tyres are much better in that respect. I've been running Goodyear Vectors for a couple of years. They're not a full winter tyre, although they are marked 'mud and snow' on the sidewalls.

When first fitted I was conscious of a bit less grip on hot dry roads, although I was trying to push them a bit. Once scrubbed in a bit I didn't really notice any difference in the summer, and they're massively better on snow, ice and cowshit.

In reply to Martin W: I'm going to agree with you here as I've driven winter tyres thro' the summer as well .  Good winter tyres are not going to have a big drop off in summer performance - see Conti, Bridgestone, Michelin, Nokian , but cheaper makes will.

In reply to wbo2 and thread in general:

Although not really addressing the OP, this thread is one of many that is pushing me toward fitting all-year tyres, probably Michelin Cross-Climates, onto my car when the time comes for any tyre changes. I’ve never had winter or all-season tyres on any of my own cars and always “got away with it” through a combination of luck, caution, and lifts to Scottish winter from friends with winter tyres or snow socks/chains. That combination won’t always be there for me. 

In reply to Ridge:

thats what I run all year to.

Swapped from Michelin Cross Clime +

Seem a slightly better tyre.   Both were good in winter and as you say in cowshit -- I found they made a big difference in the autumn on the road covered in rotting leaves etc.

 Given I drive a a Dacia high speed isn't an issue......

In reply to wbo2:

The way I see it even if there is some reduction of performance in dryer warmer condition, this is reduced performance when grip is at its best, and improved performance when grip is poor. With a summer tyre you get improved performance when grip is already good, and poor performance when grip is already poor.

The other advantage with winter tyres that people don't seem to mention that feels to be the case from driving them is how well they drive through surface water on wet roads. Just seem to cut through it with barely a pause. Even if snow is comparatively rare, low temperatures are common, and rain pretty ubiquitous.

In reply to Ridge:

I had all seasons on a Hiace (rwd). Switched from what they came with after getting stuck on hard pan, short grass that had a barely visible layer of morning dew! 😂 

All season are a good compromise. 

In reply to summo

Again, I don't disagree in principle, though I think the reality is perhaps not 30mins.

That presumes you have the personnel to fit them. Would that be on site? Or are you bringing people in to do it on a given time frame (the van might be out on a call)? Storage? Do all stations have their own fitters/mechanics or are vans sent to some central hub (fewer vehicles available)? 

Agreed. I've run all season on rwd vans out of necessity. 

As you say, cultural. I guess it's low down on most people's list of priorities, for what are actually very few days. This recent cold snap has led to one day of disruption in Sheffield. The rest of the time the major roads have been fine.

Realise this is n=1 and Sheffield does encompass some remote outposts. It does illustrate that the majority of the time, for the general population, it's probably not worth it. (I do largely agree with you, that for professional vehicle users a mind shift is worth considering). 

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Every time we have a bit of a snowy winter the BBC seem to dispatch someone to Northern Europe to point at the snowploughs etc. and do a “Why don't we spend money on this type of equipment?” piece to camera.

They always seem to miss the point that even after ploughing the road conditions are generally worse than in the UK, and it's the use of winter tyres and chains that make all the difference. In this country we have the mindset that anything other than a completely clear road is undriveable.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

I change two cars ever spring and autumn, I don't have a trolley jack or pneumatic tools, it's still less than 2 hrs total. Storage, all these stste services have depos and workshops. Any adult with a licence should be able to change a wheel in 15mins, arguably much less. A fitter with power tools should have it done and dusted, tyre pressures checked etc quicker. 

Besides, if they can drive safer, faster in some instances and provide 24/7/365 cover for what ever it is they do, there is no excuse not to make it happen. 

Every winter it's the same argument, it doesn't happen often!! 

In reply to TobyA:

I think it was in Glenmoriston - taking a pregnant women in labour from Skye to Raigmore:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12705826.two-die-with-unborn-baby-as-am...

A terrible tragedy.

In reply to summo:

Reading Lemming and Stichtplate's posts it looks like they don't even get a couple of quid's worth of basic PPE to deal with Covid patients, let alone a spare set of wheels and tyres, plus suitable storage, for every vehicle.

Although I'm not sure of the situation re: Ambulances, most companies, especially in the public sector, don't have workshops and mechanics, it's all subcontracted out. It's not going to be anywhere as cheap and quick as you think to swap wheels twice a year.

It may be worthwhile is a limited number of areas, but for most of the UK fitting all season tyres as standard is likely to be the best approach.

In reply to ag17:

Thanks, yes that's it exactly - I didn't remember it was that long ago, but I sort of remembered that a pregnant woman was involved which seemed to make it just even more heart breaking. I'm sure I remember some discussion about winter tyres even back then and that was before I moved to Finland for the first time where I saw that winter tyres are just the norm for millions of people living in colder places than the UK. 

It does seem a bit bonkers that even in the Highlands, the emergency services don't have either all season tyres fitted (sure they are more expensive, but not that much more!) all year round, or go over to winter friction tyres through the winter. 

In reply to Martin W:

Ambulances & police cars here get 'winter' tyres in winter and it only snows once every 10 years or so!

In reply to Ridge:

It's contracted out in much of the nordics, you have tyre hotels, or pop up tyre swap centres in spring & autumn,  they change and store tyres for you or businesses. They aren't expensive as they don't exactly need much specialist kit or storage requirements. 

In reply to summo:

That's not how money gets efficiently distributed from the public sector to private individuals in the UK...

In reply to Martin W:

Is there an issue where winter tyres are just not that well known/understood outside fairly specialist communities of winter climbers and so on? No fleet managers commonly swap, so it's not best practice, so no one considers it? Kind of institutional inertia? 

In reply to bigbobbyking:

And a common misconception that all winter tyres have metal studs. 

In reply to summo:

Exactly, I would guess >90% of British drivers aren't aware there's an option for winter compound tyres that would make an inch of snow basically a non-issue, but could still be driven perfectly fine for 4 months of the year and could be driven all year round if you really wanted (but with degraded performance in summer)

In reply to Ridge:

"M+S" doesn't really mean anything useful: it's purely a manufacturer designation to indicate that the tyre is designed to cope a bit better on other than warm & dry roads.  The marking that does mean something is the Three Peak Mountain Snow Flake (3PMSF) symbol, which requires the tyre to have passed a standardised set of tests to demonstrate how much better it copes.  This article: https://www.oponeo.co.uk/blog/winter-tyres-don-t-rely-on-the-m-s-mark explains it quite well:

In general, "M+S" tyres should have a very soft rubber compound and a tread with deeper grooves and a special sipe pattern to ensure better performance in the snow. Unfortunately, these features are not verified by standardised tests and may be unreliable.

"M+S" is marked on all winter tyres, but not all tyres with "M+S" marking have winter properties

FWIW, Goodyear Vectors do also carry the 3PMSF symbol.

In reply to GerM:

Good way to explain it.

This 100%.  Far too many people seem to be unaware that winter/all-season tyres aren't just for snow!

In reply to Martin W:

Thanks for the clarification. I knew it had the 'correct' symbol on the tyre somewhere, but I'm too soft to venture out in the cold and look at the sidewalls!

In reply to Martin W:

Normal tyres on Ambulance here in Wales