UKH

I'm sitting in Costa Coffee in Towcester and it is unbelievable, the amount of young children who are in here, out of control, with the parents not doing anything about it.  

First I will say I do not have children so my tolerance is low, when I go out I expect people to keep their brats under control.  In places like Costa, there are people who come in for a chat with friends, do some work and don't expect to be in the middle of an out of control kinder garden; what is wrong with parents these days?  

When I was that age I would not dear to act up like that.  Costa is not the only place that's like it; I and others deserve a quiet place to go to drink coffee.

I'm about to KILL!

In reply to Richard Smith:

This is where you've made your first mistake. Make a flask and some butties and get out into the fields. Kn0bheads can't read maps and you can usually spot them coming a mile off.

In reply to Richard Smith:

Why?

In reply to Graeme G:

Well, I don't particularly care for coffee shops, but I also don't think people should disturb others, or let their kids run riot.

Hi Richard,

I just read your profile.  Hope you're feeling OK these days, getting out and about, and ticking off some of those cool looking climbs on your wish list, of taking cool photographs. 

Posts and threads like this will not lead you to positive places.

Get out in the country as somebody else suggested!

In reply to Richard Smith:

I’m a parent of small ones and I don’t let them run round causing problems for the serving staff or other customers in eateries.  I habitually avoid places that attract parents who let kids run uncontrolled indoors as I find the only people less receptive to basic consideration for others are a similarly minded subset of dog owners, and there’s no reasoning with them and their smugly self entitled, anti social ways.

In reply to Richard Smith:

Try to stay positive Richard. Love the picture of Willie's farm on your profile page. Arctic Guinea tent if I'm not mistaken! I've still got one!

In reply to wintertree:

In my philosophical way of looking at people I've concluded that there are two categories which I've called 'Farpers' and 'Non-farpers'. The Farpers are the ones, young and old, whose only function in life is to go round farping continually without end. Farping is a kind of verbal diarrhoea that has no discernable function other than its own production. Or possibly it allows for some kind of echo location? Any combinations of random words will do as long as it's loud and continuous. The saving grace is that Farpers can be heard a long way off and avoiding action taken.

In reply to Lankyman:

“Currently at number 3 in the Top 40 Posters.”

In reply to seankenny:

Thank God it makes no noise!

In reply to Darron:

Yes, great picture - also includes a Blacks Good Companion and several Vango Force Tens - others?

Richard - this reminds me of my school/D of E trips of yore 😊

In reply to Richard Smith:

I was in W'spoons today at lunchtime and watched a young Dad, 30?, with 2 children, 6 and 8?, who were perfectly behaved. I would have loved to have asked him how he did it.

In reply to Richard Smith:

Buy the children some caffeinated drinks to share amongst themselves! Shouldn't take too much caffeine to have the desired effect when they get home. Maybe after that, the parents will keep a closer eye on what is going on in cafes!

In reply to Richard Smith:

Stay strong Richard. 
 

I have also read your profile and I’m almost in tears. 
 

AirPods with noise cancelling (game changer) are my best friend in similar situations. That’s all I have to offer but I sincerely wish you well.  

In reply to Richard Smith:

Depends what your definition of out of control is. If they are jumping around on the chairs and tables then fair enough that's out of control by most people's definition but if your tolerance is low they may have just been laughing and playing which is far healthier than miserable children that don't dare to speak when out in public.

The whole children should be seen and not heard mentality is a bit old fashioned now.

The other point to make is you're not aware what specific challenges those children may have. They may be neurodivergent or maybe the parents are struggling to cope for so many possible reasons and they just need just 20 minutes without fighting their children to behave. 

In reply to Lankyman:

Urban Dictionary gives a somewhat different definition for farping 😬

In reply to Queenie:

I'm not even going to look!

In reply to Lankyman:

I had to google it. It was a little more extreme than I was expecting.

In reply to Richard Smith:

Since were ranting about kids here my sister's eat nothing but sugar. My 7 year nephew has his own chocolate/sweets supply, he showed me it, must have at least 10000 calories of shite in there to access whenever he likes, my niece mostly eats Nutella pancakes and drinks 3 cans of zero coke a day and the enamel is getting stripped from her teeth. They're all unwell all the time, Mum's just got out of hospital after needing emergency surgery. 

It's like a crack den in there but probably less healthy. I've got a sweet tooth myself and I'm a bit on the portly side but this is a level of addiction I can't comprehend. Two middle class university educated adults and this is what they choose to eat and feed their kids. 

In reply to Richard Smith:

Unruly children? Pah...

Just wait until they turn into steroid, red bull and alcohol fuelled, attention seeking emotional blackholes of neediness, moulded into the form of human pit bulls. Then sit on a hospital corridor with them for 2 hours. Complete with dirty protest (I'm not going into details) death threats, security attending, police attending (half an hour of unfulfilled promises of arrest) and finally chainsaw snoring. All in close proximity of a load of properly poorly pensioners.

(sorry for the rant, attended a serial run of utter knob heads over the festive season).

In reply to montyjohn:

Then parks, playground, indoor child play centres, museums, sports group etc would be better places to take a child of any flavour for mental and physical stimulation. Yeah time out is great, but a busy cafe isn’t the right location.

In reply to montyjohn:

This neurodivergent thing is becoming an excuse for a whole range of anti-social behaviour.

There are myriad possibilities for places children can run wild without spoiling other people's paid for meal. 

In reply to MG:

This is pretty disgusting. 

Neurodivergence is not an excuse. It's a genuine struggle for a lot more people than we cureently know about. We're just getting better at identifying it.

And let's not promote a society where we exclude neurodivergent children from public spaces where you don't think they belong.

In reply to montyjohn:

You are missing my point.   There clearly are parents who use "neurodivergence" as an excuse for bad behaviour in perfectly normal children because they can't control them. There isn't a condition that means children run have to run around tables and throw food on the floor while shouting.

I agree children should be a normal part of society but that means they need to behave to a certain level, not as adults, or be silent, but also not disrupting everyone else.  If you spend time in Italy, it's noticeable that children are entirely normal in restaurants etc but they don't cause chaos in the same way.

In reply to MG:

Can I assume you don't have children?

Even with "normal" children, whatever that means, there will be moments where they are a bit tired, or a bit unwell and they just can't manage their emotions. Have you tried reigning in a toddler that is having a total meltdown? 

Every child is different and needs a different approach. You're expecting the same outcomes from all children. All children cause disruption, some more than others. 

In reply to montyjohn:

Correct.  Can I assume you do and are totally oblivious and unconcerned about the effect their behaviour has on others and look for any excuse for it?

Which is a good time to take them home, or at least away areas they will inflict their behaviour of others.

In reply to MG:

I think this is one of those matters of degree that's very hard to talk about in the abstract on the internet. Sometimes your kids are acting up but you do actually need food (or even just the bill or whatever) so you just need to try to minimize their impact either until they calm down or until you can get fed and get out. Sometimes kids are being basically fine but still get dirty looks from people who think that anything apart from sitting in silence is misbehaviour, and sometimes people are just oblivious to kids who are properly making a nuisance. Also tbf the OP was talking about Costa, which is hardly an oasis of calm at the best of times.

Anyway, without seeing something in the flesh, I can assume that by "creating havoc" you mean "talking out loud" and you can assume that by "not making trouble" I mean "setting fire to the table cloths" and we won't really get anywhere.

In reply to Richard Smith:

Yes people can be annoying, but if you want control over your environment, don't go to Costa.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I don't know why you think that since I explicitly said the opposite above ("behave to a certain level, not as adults, or be silent,").  I mean, again as I said, not running around tables, throwing food around etc.  

In reply to montyjohn:

You seem to be advocating a kind of exceptionalism where every kind of poor behaviour has to be excused on the grounds that everyone might have some specific condition? Society does still have expectations about behaviour. How would you feel about the 'fairer' distribution of wealth by socially disadvantaged kids mugging wealthy pensioners? They had special needs so that's OK. We do seem more and more to be living in a society where everyone (young and old) has a right to 'express themselves' regardless of who is disturbed or upset. Or maybe I'm just getting old and intolerant? Whatever, the cause, it's a big reason why I head for the hills. Who was it said 'Hell is other people'? There's some truth in that.

In reply to MG:

It's interesting how many non parents come forward with all their parenting advice. 

I've struggled parenting. Every month you have what seems like a different child that you need to get to know and learn how to manage. Every friend I have with children has also struggled.

I can be in a public space, there's be a family struggling, I can immediately tell they are going through a though period (this period might be months of bad behaviour that takes time to get on top of, maybe it's a one off, or maybe it's continuous and they haven't found a solution yet).

I very much feel awkward and uneasy when my kids miss-behave in public but I've trained (still training) myself to accept it as it's best for the wellbeing of my kids and the family as a whole. I'm not hiding my kids away whenever there's a tantrum, or worse, avoid going out just in case. If you can't handle it, that's your problem. Deal with it.

To assume it's just bad parenting is un unbelievable display of ignorance on your part. Most parents to an amazing job, whilst holding down a full time career at the same time.

In reply to montyjohn:

A private cafe, with paying customers isn't a public space. The examples i gave above are. 

In reply to montyjohn:

I think you fail to differentiate between children's tantrums, moods etc when say 1,2,3,4,5  years old and behaviour from children who are school age and should really have learnt what is acceptable behaviour in public, yeah do what they like at home, but not when it impacts others. Every other parent sympathises with a parent whose 3 year old has a meltdown for next to no reason, it happens that's kids, but running around a cafe for example isn't acceptable, it's not even safe for the kid when people are carrying near boiling point drinks. 

In reply to Richard Smith:

This is just like a dog thread.  Unsurprisingly.

I've got nothing to say about parenting, but will say that the idea that a branch of Costa should be an oasis of peace and calm is a bit erm..  well.. unrealistic shall we say.

And particularly with regard to the "do some work" bit - yeah, nah.  Expecting to be able to treat a coffee shop like it's your office and have people tiptoe around you is more than a little unreasonable.

In reply to MG:

I think Dave's point was we don't really know what the original behaviour was like that sparked the OP, and that different people can perceive the same actions very differently. I'm not sure if I remember seeing children throwing food in a restaurant or cafe for example. Maybe I'm just lucky, or the OP unlucky, or we just see things differently. 

The last two times I've been out to UK crags I've ended up stepping in dog sh**, the last time was Saturday afternoon at Bamford. I only smelt it once in the car, so only drove as far Dennis Knoll parking before parking to try and find some clean grass and water to clean my shoe off on. Walking around the car park and along the start of the causeway path there was dog sh*t everywhere. So I'm currently on a real downer with dog owners (people were letting their dogs run around off the lead at Bamford despite there being sheep on the moor). But for the dog owners perhaps they think that there is plenty of space out in the national park where the dog crap can biodegrade in the rain, and that putting it in a plastic bag and taking it to a bin to go to landfill is ridiculous, that their dog will come to them instantly when called so never bothers other people or sheep etc.

I'm not going to claim that when I was lad there was no dog poop anywhere, but at the same time maybe the Peak District is now used more heavily than pre-covid, including by dog owners etc. etc. Maybe there are different perspectives that all have some validity, on the same issue. 

In reply to MG:

Children get bored easily and then start to make their own fun. Many places offer play areas where kids can burn off some excess energy, or colouring activities to help keep kids on their seats. These locations generally have an expectation that kids will be there, but still that parents will supervise to avoid disturbance to other customers - I don't mind noise, but don't expect to have kids running into me or constantly banging into the back of my chair.

And again I'm going to turn this back on the parents. Bring table appropriate activities for the little ones (colouring books or even iPads) that will keep them happy and engaged.  Yes (the vast majority) of kids are perfectly capable of behaving, but they are also kids with short attention spans and it's the parents responsibility to adapt the environment to suit their childs needs, not the other way around.

In reply to montyjohn:

Great.  You inflict your noisy, disruptive child on society and we have to "deal with it".  Rather than being selfish and anti-social, how about taking some responsibility?

In reply to MG:

Who says I don't take responsibility. I take every caution I can to keep my kids happy and engaged (when out and about and at home).

When this doesn't work out, I'm not going to feel ashamed by it.

It's not anti-social. It's real life.

In reply to montyjohn:

You did! You  just said everyone else has to "deal with it"

No, it's pretty clear you don't care less about anyone else if it affects your darling child in any way.

In reply to TobyA:

Yeah, or that it's hard to pick out exactly what people mean because we tend to be ambiguous and euphemistic in how we describe it - I might say that sometimes my three year old is good when we eat out and sometimes he isn't, and the examples I'm thinking of where he isn't are things like mashing his peas with his fingers and not sitting nicely in his chair and maybe being a bit noisy until we can get him to calm down(and even here I can tell that someone's itching to interpret "a bit noisy" in the worst way they can imagine), which is annoying has hell if you're actually responsible for trying to get him to eat nicely but has fairly minimal impact on anyone more than a metre away in an averagely bustling cafe or pub, whereas someone else is going to assume that I mean he's running round other people's tables upending their plates and calls me a selfish prick for being willing to inflict that on other people.

In reply to MG:

You continue to interpret what you like. 

In reply to TobyA:

OT, but landowners have the right to ban dogs from CROW land (other than on public rights of way) and the estate there has a permanent dog ban in place.  People really shouldn't be taking their dogs to Bamford even on the lead.  (Same goes for the Northern end of Stanage strictly speaking, but there is at least a public footpath along there.)

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I take your point that its partly down to individual tolerance and the location.  I am thinking of directly affecting other people (running around, food on floor, screaming incessantly), not just being a child. "Out of control" was the phrase in the OP.  I am talking about that.

In reply to deepsoup:

Landowners also have the right to shoot dogs!

In reply to MG:

I'm not really talking about individual tolerance and the location (although the situation is obviously important), I just don't think it's obvious that the sort of behaviour that montyjohn thinks we need to put up with as a consequence of taking kids out in public is the same as what you think he thinks, or that what you think is unacceptable "just get out now" behaviour is the same as what he thinks you think.

In reply to Jenny C:

No they don't.  They have the right to take "legitimate and reasonable" action to protect livestock which might, in extreme circumstances, include shooting the dog.
https://www.fwi.co.uk/farm-life/law-shooting-dogs-critical-facts-farmers-mu...

In reply to deepsoup:

So yes, if its reasonable they do have a legitimate right to shoot dogs 

Not suggesting this should be rolled out kids - although maybe with dart guns, just to sedate a bit.  /sarcasm

In reply to Lankyman:

"Or maybe I'm just getting old and intolerant?"

Sums up many of the perspectives here.

In reply to Jenny C:

I once decided to read the ‘you can shoot digs legislation’. It’s interesting as it speaks volumes about whom sets the laws. In summary and paraphrasing.

A landowner can shoot some dogs where they are stock worrying once all reasonable alternatives have been exhausted. 

They cannot shoot dogs belonging to a hunting pack, nor can they shoot a police dog, even if those dogs are attacking stock.

There were possibly other what you might term oddities that I’ve forgotten.

A clear case of not all dogs are equal. 

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

Only those b@stard night hawks

In reply to deepsoup:

This may be an unfortunate digression considering the final line of the original post, but has anyone ever heard of a farmer shooting a dog? All through my life I've always heard that a farmer CAN do this (although your link make it sound like a farmer isn't likely to actually do it), but are there recent cases where farmers have shot dogs worrying livestock?

In reply to Jenny C:

The trouble is that the real problem is the owners.

Just a pity (in some cases) that they can't shoot them as well.

In reply to TobyA:

A quick Google suggests a few incidents a year.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

Hunting dog packs is bizarre and yes sounds like the those who made the laws making sure they didn't restrict their own interests.

But I suspect the cost of reimbursing a farmer for lost stock is far lower than that of having to train a replacement specialist police dog - although you could also argue that if dog that can't be controlled around livestock it isn't sufficiently trained for police work.

In reply to Jenny C:

Kids should have a legitimate right to shoot dogs with dart guns? 🙂

In reply to TobyA:

I've never heard of it actually happening. 

Up there on the Moscar Estate the gamekeepers have quite the reputation.  I'm not sure whether it would be more their style to shoot your dog, snare it or poison it and dump it on someone else's land.

In reply to montyjohn:

With all due respect, they are your children and your responsibility - and responsibility literally means that you have to deal with it. The best you can ask of complete strangers in public is for tolerance. And I think most people are reasonably tolerant, but let’s be clear - teaching your kids how to act appropriately in different public spaces is part of your job as a parent. If they are acting up and affecting others, and you aren’t doing anything about it, claiming the well-being of you and yours comes above those of strangers, then what example are you setting for your kids? 

In reply to montyjohn:

If a child is being disruptive, they are also likely not actually happy or comfortable in the space they are in. I can see a cafe being a very uncomfortable place for many neurodivergent people, with so many smells, noises, people etc. So if kids are acting up because they are not comfortable in the space, and other users or the space are not comfortable because the kids ar acting up, then the parents shouldn't have the kids there for the good of all of them!

I'm firmly in the no kids camp, but I do work with kids a lot and I understand kids being kids. I'm pretty relaxed, but I still see no need for parents to allow the kids to be brats. Take them to a space that suits their needs better!

I do have a couple of rescue dogs who can be brats. Each have their own brattiness, and an environment to which suits one doesn't always suit the other. We don't take our dogs everywhere, they only come to places where we have a reasonable chance of them behaving appropriately. If they don't, they get removed from that place. I have all the patience and understanding in the world for them, but part of that means knowing what environments are suitable for them! 

Kids and dogs are largely the same, but dogs give better snuggles!

In reply to girlymonkey:

When I was young, one of my dogs sh@t on the floor in a clothes shop. Never saw a kid doing that. He was a good boy, Sam but he could be problematic.

In reply to Lankyman:

A kid in our local pharmacy picked up loads of stuff and threw it on the floor in a rage last week when I was in there. I've never seen a dog do that! 

The point is, both dogs and kids can behave inappropriately in certain environments, so if we know they can't cope then we shouldn't take them there! Both for their well-being and that of others in the space.

In reply to seankenny:

Ever had one of your young children go pear shaped for no reason at all?throwing a tantrum in supermarket for example. You get one half of shoppers acknowledging the same experience and the other half tutt tutting .

It’s funny how different people with different life experiences react. Some people expect you to beat the child to death until they calm down.i am sure you would not be advocating that. 

In reply to seankenny:

All my action as a parent stem from me taking responsibility. 

Take my eldest. Very sensitive and hates getting into trouble. All I have to do is use a stern voice. Super easy. If I had two kids like that, I probably wouldn't have paid any attention to this thread.

My youngest though, complete opposite. In fact, I've definitely made the situation worse by being strict when miss-behaving. It's my default go to parenting style when kids are naughty. It historically worked. But it doesn't work with my eldest. They rise up to it and basically display anger management issues in retaliation. I had no idea a three year old could do this.

Our current approach following advice, which is working, albeit slowly is to tell my youngest, when having an anger blowout, where here when you want to talk, and pretty much let them carry out the blow out. From the outside looking in, it looks like we're ignoring our child and letting them be a brat. But it's all part of the process. It's not easy, but it's import long term.

If this happens outside the house, I am not changing tactic and escalating an issue, undoing loads of hard work. 

If you've not had to go though this sort of ordeal you're not going to understand.

I am dealing with it. Maybe not the way that suits you. My example above is just one of so many variations out there. 

So after reading my explanation above, and reading your message again, do you now get that life is a bit more complicated than you're assuming. I'll repeat something I said earlier, you can't expect the same outcome form all children.

In reply to Lankyman:

I knew someone whom was child minding at a play pool. Kid pulled down their trunks and left a log on the pool side….……

…..while they were trying to decide could they leave the kids unsupervised in the pool to go get the cleaning materials, the dog trotted over to eat the lot, and licked the tiles clean….job done!

In reply to TobyA:

Since I said I'd never heard of it actually happening, I had a bit of a google and found a fairly extreme example.  A siberian husky on Arran was chasing sheep, but the owner had it back on the lead again when the farmer shot it at pretty much point-blank range with a shotgun.

The farmer was charged with recklessly endangering life (of the dog owner, not the dog), but argued that he could see the dog was about to break loose again and when it came to trial the sheriff ruled that there was no case to answer.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/scottish-daily-mail/20191116/281986084385659
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-farmer-who-shot-dog-...

Oh, and here's a really weird one..  a pack of ten unaccompanied dogs that had killed a sheep, the farmer shot four of them.  (The BBC helpfully includes a stock photo of some sheep here for readers who aren't sure what one looks like.)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-66148931

In reply to girlymonkey:

What you are basically saying here is challenging and difficult kids should be restricted from certain public spaces. You do it with dogs so parents should do it with children. 

No. You are quit simply wrong.

And I say this even though I've felt the exact same way as you in the past. I remember, 10 years ago, before kids, being on a plane and there was a mum sat behind me with a four year old I would guess screaming for the entire flight.

I remember being so angry with the situation. Internally I was thinking why should I have to deal with this crap all because she can't control her child and chose to bring them on this flight. I'm appalled that I once thought that way. I'm just glad I kept my thoughts to myself. I wish now I could go back and find a non-condescending way of telling her not to worry everyone those around her and do whatever she needs to cope as however stressful it seemed for me, it was probably 10 times worse for her.

In reply to neilh:

A supermarket is pretty much a must do, a cafe is a more of a discretionary choice. No one goes to the supermarket as a leisure experience, or says: “Let’s meet up in Tesco and catch up!” I don’t think they are particularly comparable in terms of expectations for children’s behaviour.

In reply to montyjohn:

For whatever reason (and I'm pretty sure it's not my doing as I feel like a rubbish dad at times) our kids are/have been incredibly well behaved when out and about and it was lovely when people stopped and complemented us on how good they were being. There's a flip side though, my eldest for a while had suicidal thoughts, incredibly dark days, and that 'sitting still, behaving well' in Costa was a symptom of his mental health where he just turned in on himself and god how I wish he had been running around causing chaos and being happy-go-lucky without a care in the world. He's through it now and is a beautiful human being. But to the OP's points, life is too short to get on a line about children being children, they are what they are, those kids behaving in a way that the OP found distasteful is another persons example of joy, are they really out of control, I think not, are they pushing boundaries a bit, probably, will there be a limit to their parents tolerance, yes but it's unfortunately not he same as the OP's and whilst I wholeheartedly agree that there should be consideration for others around you it's not always going to happen in the way you want/need it to.

Dogs and children - both of mine have left steaming gifts in the corner of the kitchen at least once, both are food hoovers and cost a fortune, and both are full of unconditional love - so all is good for the most part. Except vets bills, they can funk off! 

In reply to seankenny:

I am just not sure you understand or have experience of ——that they can throw tantrums in the most unexpected places.

having said this there will be plenty of parentswith children who also join the tutt tutting brigade when behaviour is just out of hand. I suspect your comments are really made at those situations. 

In reply to seankenny:

Let's also be clear that a cafe is not a 'public space' ultimately, and it's for the cafe owner/manager to decide what behaviour is acceptable there. 

People coming in to 'do some work', wanting to plug in their laptop and nurse a cup of tea for five hours, might sometimes be slightly disappointed to find they're not more welcome there than the occasional family with a couple of lively kids.

In reply to montyjohn:

Someone gets shouted at and responds with anger? That’s a very basic, almost instinctive human response, and I’m absolutely not surprised that a three year old does this. 

It’s great that you’ve found a way of working with your child to help them deal with their strong negative emotions. But, if your child is having an “anger blowout” then perhaps, just perhaps, some public spaces are not suitable for you both to be in whilst this behaviour - and your completely understandable response - are on-going? You see when I talk about taking responsibility, I’m also talking about responsibility to those around you. Anger blowouts happen, we all get that. But your responsibility to others is to ensure that impacts less others as little as possible. Maybe your kid slams a door. A door in your house, fine. A door in my house, not acceptable. Your job is to make sure your small child is in an appropriate place so they can have the meltdown they need. 

I think you might be confusing understanding with agreement. 

I’m not expecting a particular outcome from the children, but from the parents. 

In reply to BRILLBRUM:

I think you've just highlighted my biggest fear I didn't even know I had. How awful that must have been. I think you're right about the symptoms. Whilst I'm quick to admit, I have no idea what my actions have long term on my children's adult character, it may as well be chaos theory, if I were to hazard a guess, my angry youngest I think will be fine. He has no problem expressing himself. My sensitive eldest however, easy to parent, but a much bigger concern for the long term.

I'm glad your lad is through it now.

In reply to neilh:

This is literally the most basic, observable fact about children, not some eldritch secret known by only a few select initiates! “Come on kids we’re leaving” was a phrase my parents were happy to deploy, and it seems entirely reasonable.

Screaming kid on a plane? Not pleasant but not really a problem. Bad behaviour in a restaurant (that’s not Pizza Hut) or something similar? The parents need to act. 

In reply to seankenny:

I don't think you understand what you are suggesting.

If my child behaviour doesn't improve. Let's just pretend, I think it will, but there will be some that don't. At what age should he be allowed to enter a cafe? Never?

I don't live in a country that is this intolerant.

In reply to deepsoup:

Yes, it’s privately owned but that doesn’t mean the owner can do what they want (remember the gay cake business?). But it’s definitely a type of public space that children need to learn to act appropriately in. 

In reply to montyjohn:

What happens to teenagers with uncontrollable anger blowouts? Usually, they end up in a lot of trouble and the end result of that is no, they have some time out that definitely does not involve entering cafes. That’s because being around a fully formed human with uncontrollable anger is bloody scary. 

Look you’re the one who couldn’t handle crying children on a plane (which honestly doesn’t bother me). Are you sure you’re not just misunderstanding what is going on in other people’s heads and hearts?

In reply to neilh:

Yeah, I'm probably going to win some sort of "most overwrought metaphor" prize for this but I think there's some comparison between having to deal with a misbehaving child in a public place and being on a mountaineering expedition that's gone tits up. It's easy for people who haven't really been in a comparable situation to look at what's happening from a comfortable distance and point out that you shouldn't have been attempting this thing in those conditions or that you should have retreated at this point or taken that precaution but in reality you're a fallible person trying to do the right thing in the face of a lot of unknowns and under some amount of stress.

For sure I could never take my three year-old to a cafe, or I could take him but walk out the door as soon as he puts a foot out of line (regardless of whether we've got plates of food on the table, where and how we're going to get something else to eat), or I can go for it and occasionally have him kick off for some reason and sometimes make a judgement call that the best thing to do is to stick it out and try to calm him down for a bit because I think he'll probably be fine once he gets some food in him or just gets distracted from whatever weird thing he's currently worked up over. And I might be wrong, but to me it's the best call that I can make under the circumstances.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Given that this incident happened in a pharmacy, I would have thought that this was a necessary trip rather than a leisure activity. 

And, as a parent myself, I'm sure the parent of said child would have preferred to make this trip on their own (but I'm guessing this child wasn't old enough to be left home alone, so they were forced to take them with them) and was mortified when the child did this.

Perhaps have a bit of sympathy for the parent struggling with a misbehaving child rather than suggesting they've brought them somewhere inappropriate.  It's a pharmacy, not a nightclub!

In reply to montyjohn:

I don't think teenagers or adults screaming and running around cafes is acceptable either, no. Are you completely unwilling to acknowledge there are other people in the world than you and your misbehaving child? 

In reply to montyjohn:

FWIW Monty I'm absolutely in agreement with all you've said on this thread.   

Like you in the past, and others on this thread, before I had children I had a very low tolerance for noise and disruption caused by children.  Now it's like I don't hear it.  It evokes only sympathy and pathos for parents who are having to deal with it.  

Bringing up kids is difficult, and only made more difficult by people who, frankly, don't know what they're talking about chipping in with their unqualified opinions about parenting.  Guilty of that myself in the past, as other are here.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Has anyone offered advice on parenting beyond expecting parents to have some consideration for others?  Hardly unreasonable.

In reply to MG:

At all? Let's just compile a list of mental disabilities to ban from cafes then that can be considered anti-social.

Or maybe, let's work towards being more tolerant.

In reply to seankenny:

Gay cakes don't come into it.  Having (or being) a child is not a protected characteristic.  They are completely at liberty to ban children altogether if they want, welcome them to be as noisy as they like, or anything in between.

In reply to Lankyman:

Love this!  

In reply to montyjohn:

Thank you.

It is exactly that though, chaos theory (a fantastic analogy for parenting) we have a big hand in shaping them but ultimately, from day one they are their own person however much it might get our backs-up and our role is to be their to nurture them, revel in the successes, and catch them when it all goes pear shaped. We are as parents paying it forward though, and I'm looking forward to when I can cadge a lift/loan/helping hand/advice from my kids. They have already had the joy of escorting their drunken parents home at 4am this New Year, so that bad behaviour - it just goes round in circles  

In reply to MG:

“The point is, both dogs and kids can behave inappropriately in certain environments, so if we know they can't cope then we shouldn't take them there! Both for their well-being and that of others in the space. 
 

I think that qualifies as advice?

Has also frequently been offered up on here on various threads. Generally by childless men.

In reply to Richard Smith:

Each to their own, I guess.  I find it annoying that people hog tables for hours doing their work on the "free" WiFi.

In reply to montyjohn:

Which disability is it that results in people running around screaming?  Or maybe you are again trying to use imagined disabilities as excuse for bad behaviour.

In reply to Iamgregp:

I guess you might say "...for their well-being..." is advice, otherwise it just seems to be a plea to consider others.

In reply to Iamgregp:

There's just a really clear obvious divide between expectation between parents and non-parents.

At least in camp parents we've also been non-parents at some point so have actually seen it from both sides.

In reply to MG:

 

You’ve never had kids what would you know about teenagers?! Before I had mine I never knew that <insert widely known thing about teenagers here>, your ignorance is just typical of childless people.
 

Doesn’t sleep deprivation reduce cognitive capacities to the same extent as being drunk? 

It's funny reading this deeply philosophical debate over how kids and parents should behave. Nothing will change though will it, like all of a sudden Costa will become a place off peace and serenity because a handful of climbers disapproved on a forum. If you don't like kids misbehaving then don't go to a coffee shop full of kids, it's the only thing that's going to work.

In reply to MG:

Quite a number actually.  Autism, ADD, manic depression, schizophrenia, Tourettes, all sorts of developmental disorders.... 

My next door neighbours eldest has profound autism.  Has frequent meltdowns which involves screaming and hammering on the walls, doors, windows etc.  Or am I just imagining that?

In reply to jiminy483:

While that will work its not the only way.

What about when there are no kids in a coffee shop when you arrive? Do people in there just have to put up with the arrival of misbehaving children.

Perhaps parents of children who misbehave should not take them into coffee shops.

Dave

In reply to deepsoup:

Well, it was until “trial by tripadvisor” came to dominate.  I feel really sorry for table staff when they have to try and navigate kids running round without supervision inside a restaurant and who live in fear of the inevitable if they ask the parents to reign them in a bit.  

Lots of unnecessary conflation on this thread between parents who don’t set and enforce appropriate bounds and dealing with the occasional meltdown, tantrum and so on.  It’s perfectly possibly for someone not to want kids running around an indoor eatery whilst also having sympathy for a parent dealing with a tantrum or meltdown etc.  

In reply to Tringa:

Only children who consistently misbehave whenever they go into coffee shops? Or any children who might potentially misbehave on the wrong day, which is to say pretty much any children? 

In reply to seankenny:

Well, we've all grown up; through toddlers, to teenagers, to adults.

So even those without children have experience of children...

In reply to Richard Smith:

That you frequent Costa Coffee rather removes any possibility of sympathy.

In reply to captain paranoia:

Indeed. And I suspect parents think that those without kids have similar levels of emotional understanding as they themselves did when they had children, forgetting that human beings grow and can develop awareness or insight with time. 

In reply to captain paranoia:

Yep, this is exactly how it works.

In reply to MG:

This might describe a fair few (caving) club dinners I attended back in the day

In reply to Tringa:

No of course not, they could demand that the staff throw the offending party out immediately, failing that they could discipline the children themselves or admonish the parents. Failing even that they could physically throw the children out of the shop themselves, or start a fight with the parents. Personally I'd neck my coffee and go somewhere else if they were bothering me that much, what would you do?

Where are all these kids who don't misbehave? I've never met one. You're saying parents shouldn't take their kids to cafes, restaurants or anywhere else they might offend an adult. I just don't understand this line of thinking, advocating something that is clearly never going to happen, what's the point?

In reply to wintertree:

Dunno about that.  But away on another bit of a tangent, here's an interesting radio programme about that:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001rym0

Really?  An argumentative UKC thread lacks nuance?  Well I never!
(It really is exactly like a dog thread.)

In reply to Iamgregp:

Yes I am sure some autistic children will tend to but equally I  doubt they would want to be in a cafe and if they were people would be tolerant.   It's pretty clear montyjohn is to use a non-existent disability as an excuse for his inability to control an unruly child.

In reply to MG:

I had to just delete what I really wanted to say to you but this is so inappropriate.

Unbelievable. All from someone who really hasn't got a clue what they are talking about. At least I had the dignity to keep my stupid thoughts to myself when I was in your shoes.

In reply to montyjohn:

I've asked the mod's to close this thread - we appear to not be able to hold a discussion on UKC (again) without resorting to our most basic selves.

MG - catch yourself on!

In reply to Richard Smith:

Note that the OP wasn't describing an occasional meltdown, such as may be expected from time to time even from ordinarily well behaved children. Nor was he describing the behaviour of a child with behavioural difficulties. He referred to"the amount of young children who are in here, out of control"

Herein lies the difference. I hope we can all bring ourselves to be tolerant when some children take it upon themselves to play up, for whatever reason. But I don't think he was describing that situation. I think his perception was that the unruly children's behaviour wasn't part of a considered parental strategy to help their children to adapt, wasn't the result of a medical condition over which they (and their parents) had little control, but rather was the result of the parents in question not giving a sh!t.

In the former two cases I think I (as a parent, if anyone thinks that's remotely relevant) could be forgiving and accepting of the disruption. If I perceived it to be the latter, I would be dismissing the parents as tw@ts and pledging to avoid Costa even more than I already do.

In reply to MG:

What a remarkably childish thing to say.

In reply to MG:

For years, decades I guess actually!, you've always struck me as a totally sensible presence on UKC, but that comment is totally uncalled for, or at best just blatant trolling, trying to have an argument for the sake of it. 

In reply to montyjohn:

There are people in the world, unfortunately, who can't deal with it. At best, your unruly kids being left to misbehave loudly in the quiet café are going to make me leave in very short order, an at worst your kids being left to misbehave loudly on my train from Edinburgh to London are going to make 4.5 hours of my life utterly miserable. You often seem to fall into the category of lacking the ability to empathise in your posts here, so you may be unaware that some people simply can't just "deal with it" in the same way that depressed people can't just "try being happy".

The minimum demonstrated behaviour needs to match the environment. Running amok on the beach? Sure. In the library? Don't be ridiculous. Places where other people have also paid money to enjoy their [coffee, food, beer, whatever]? Well it's a bit suboptimal isn't it?

In reply to seankenny:

A cafe is absolutely a public place. The contrary is being repeatedly asserted on this thread.

To the thread- try carrying a knife in there and arguing with the cops that you have the owner's permission.

In reply to TobyA:

Well it does seem to have struck a collective nerve but looking back I see montyjohn commenting with e.g.

"I'm not hiding my kids away whenever there's a tantrum, or worse, avoid going out just in case. If you can't handle it, that's your problem. Deal with it."

"Our current approach following advice, which is working, albeit slowly is to tell my youngest, when having an anger blowout, where here when you want to talk, and pretty much let them carry out the blow out. "

Then when challenged on these statements which are basically saying he doesn't care less about the effect his children have on others, suddenly bringing in vague disabilities as a get of jail free card  Sorry, I don't buy it.

In reply to Siward:

A knife?

In a cafe?

The horror...

In reply to MG:

You’re not doing yourself any favours here, there’s challenging the the discussion, and then there’s putting out for a Twitter(X) spat, and this isn’t that place.

In reply to MG:

It 'struck a collective nerve' because it was a gratuitously bell-endy thing to have said, you're better than that.

In reply to MG:

I never suggested either of my children have disabilities. I said my youngest has anger management issues but I've never labelled it as anything other than that. I also said I think he will be fine long term.

It did say that if you see parents struggling there may be challenges involved such as neurodivergence as an example of many such possibilities.

Following through with some anger management techniques does not mean I do not care what others think, but as I've already said, I am making a conscious effort to block that out as quite frankly your inconvenience is and should be less important. I naturally have a habit of putting the needs of strangers above my family but I'm proud to be breaking this habit.

I know I sound like a broken record but if you had kids you would understand.

In reply to Siward:

I wonder why?  A cafe owned by a company is a private space to which the public are admitted for limited hours and under strict - though often implicit - terms.  If I try and go in to a local cafe shirtless, drunk and singling loudly, management are likely to refuse me entry.  The same isn’t true for a genuinely public space.  Likewise many cafes ban dogs except assistance dogs - no public space control order or whatever required. I’ve seen a fair few pubs with sign that they “welcome well behaved children” etc.  Likewise with dogs.

A place frequented by the public is not necessarily the same a public place.

In reply to captain paranoia:

Will nobody think of the children?!!

In reply to tehmarks:

I've got a flight coming up in April. I don't know what the chances are if a meltdown. Let's say 10% after all the mitigation we have at our disposal.

What advise do you have. What should I do different?

In reply to montyjohn:

Perhaps don't "and pretty much let them carry out the blow out."   Most passengers will understand a child having a tantrum for a few minutes.  They won't be happy with the parents doing bugger all to a quieten them down.

In reply to MG:

Why didn't I think of that? Just stop them having a tantrum.

​but you do realise that any attempt to talk, touch, make eye contact makes the tantrum worse. Much worse. You can't just get a toy out and distract him and expect him to snap out of it.

This worked on my eldest.

Not my youngest.

Do you really believe we haven't tried every variety of technique to get him out of a tantrum?

We just thought, oh well, nothing we can do about this. 

No, we started with books, videos for ideas but nothing worked. It got to the point we sought advice which is where our current technique came from. I was initially against it as it felt wrong but it does seem to be working.

I've explained that we have a working technique after getting advice but you still think you know best.

In reply to MG:

I love how, in your head, you think that your right to peace and quiet is of greater importance than the professional advice Monty has sought in helping his child deal with managing their anger.

“Sorry kid, I know this may lead to longer term difficulties in helping you dealing with your emotional outbursts, and exacerbate an already difficult developmental stage… But you see there’s a bloke over there called MG drinking a Latte and, we’ll it cost £3.50 so he really needs some peace to drink it.”

In reply to montyjohn:

fu)k me there are some deluded wingnuts around here from time to time. I think you’ve been patient and explained yourself a few times now. 

In reply to wintertree:

I’m pretty sure that both legally and practically a space that does not require membership to enter counts as a public space. 

In reply to Richard Smith:

Not sure what experiment you're running but as long as it's kosher and you pay reasonably well you can use mine at weekends if you're that short.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Well it's not  just me is it, it's everyone else affected.  And yes I do.  If the advice is sod everyone else as seems to be the case, then I think my right to going about my day trumps that. 

The Costa example is kind of middle ground  -  no one expects complete tranquillity there.  But every answer montyjohn has given would apply to an classical music concert, or a speech, or the opera.  Are we expected to just tolerate out of control children in those locations too?

In reply to pencilled in:

“Practically” - entrance to a cafe is subject to limits imposed by private management.  Hours, dress code, sobriety requirements, subject to not harassing staff, no cats/dogs, minimum purchase requirements, not running around playing football etc, rules on use of cameras and photography etc.  You have very funny definition of “practically”.  It took me 30 seconds to rattle off 8 limitations I’ve seen in private cafes open to the public that aren’t applied to public spaces (except - rarely - through formal control orders not required by the cafe owner).

”Legally” - in terms of applying the law in terms of public order I think you’re correct, but this is in terms of regulating criminal behaviour, not providing or guaranteeing access.  Areas open to the public, at such time as the public are there, are considered public spaces for the application of a particular law.  The relevant act does not universally legislate that they are public spaces, just that they are so for the application of that specific act.

It’s private space with admission and conduct subject to the terms of the private owner, but where if the public are admitted the public are bound and protected by a specific legal act as if they were in a public space.  This doesn’t stop it being a private place subject to private rules, it just means if those rules let the public in they have to behave themselves as if in public.

This, I appreciate, is a bit of a nuanced position for a UKC thread.

Edit: lest this sound like pedantic hair splitting - there is a point looping round to the OP.  Privately owned spaces opened to the public come with restrictions and rules, and it’s generally accepted that not letting kids run round unsupervised is one of them in many privately owned public spaces. A subset of people treat such places as if they’re identical to a genuine public space and that’s what people are here to polarise and argue about.  I think it’s worth remembering that many privately owned public used spaces have staff who don’t get paid great, take too much abuse and would quite like not to have high energy mobile hazards running underfoot whilst they carry scalding hot drinks about…

In reply to wintertree:

Your're right of course but there is bit more to it than the legal position. What behaviour is acceptable is affected by all sorts of social conventions.  Probably Costa have a policy on disruptive children but that will be affected in part by what the public expect and want and will only be enforced in extremis, whereas social pressure acts at other levels.

In reply to Richard Smith:

I think it’s time for a UKC/Mumsnet cross over discussion. 

In reply to pencilled in:

If the manager of your local Tescos thinks you're a wrong 'un they can ban you.  Legally and practically you would definitely notice that it isn't a public place if you were one of the members of the public that they've decided isn't allowed in.

In reply to MG:

Does anybody really take young children to such events? Sounds painful 

In reply to wintertree:

These are public spaces subject to the rights of the owners. They are still public spaces though, surely, (the behaviour of kids aside)?

I’m not sure the measure of a public space is defined by how regulated it is.  It’s a minor point, granted. 

In reply to pencilled in:

The explaining reminds me why I'm doing what I'm doing so it actually helps a little.

Renewed energy to see it through.

In reply to montyjohn:

Our daughter went with us to the Royal Ballet when she was about 5. She thoroughly enjoyed it, was good as gold, and was complimented by those in seats nearby afterwards for her unexpectedly non-disruptive behaviour. It is possible, for the right children in the right environment at the right time.

But if at any time she had lost interest and stopped being quiet, we all would have been out of there like a shot.

In reply to john arran:

Come to think of it my eldest would actually be fine if it was just her if she found it remotely interested. Perhaps not a speech then. But with the younger one there they bounce off eachother.

They are playing or arguing 100% of the time. There's no pause button.

In reply to pencilled in:

They are private spaces to which the management admit up to a legally limited number of the public during a part of the day, typically subject to minimum purchase requirements extending for a limited duration and with a whole bunch of other rules.

Many people treat and use them as a public space without a second thought.  

I can go to any public space in my trainers.  I can take a dog.  I can sing loudly.  I can bring my own food and drink.  I don’t have to spend a penny.  I can go full Denis Leary and that’s between me and the pigeons.  Try any of that in some up market cafe or bar in town and I’ll get short shrift.  Argue with the management and they’ll bar me and I won’t be able to go in.  Doesn’t feel very public to me?

In reply to montyjohn:

Your 'if you had kids' could also be considered to be a broken record.

In reply to wintertree:

Shops and shopping malls have the right to refuse entry. This is how they deal with persistent shoplifters and troublemakers.

They are, as you say, private property which the public may enter, subject to certain conditions.

In reply to captain paranoia:

That's what I'm referring to. What did you think I was talking about?

In reply to montyjohn:

Ah. We agree, then. Misreading on my part.

In reply to MG:

 

Well here’s a truth grenade mate. It doesn’t. As anyone here who has been lucky enough to have children will attest, Monty’s children are his  number one priority. He’d walk in front of a train for them. Their health and well-being is literally more important than anything in the world to him. He will do anything for them. Including suffer the ire of strangers whom seem to think their latte means more to them than that.

You’re perfectly entitled to go about your day, I don’t see how someone’s kid having a meltdown really stops you going about your day. Just suck it up and go somewhere else if you’re that aggrieved. 

Which brings me on to this car crash of a counter argument:

Context is quite a thing in human behaviour. This may come as a surprise to you but we tend to have different behavioural expectations in different places.

Would I take my 2 year old to the cenotaph on remembrance Sunday, or wear speedos to work? Would start chanting and cheering at a chess match or sit in contemplative silence, shushing others around me at the football?

No mate. No more than I’d expect to go in Towcester Costa on a Sunday afternoon and expect it to be child free and serene.

In reply to Iamgregp:

You are trying to argue that all parents are thoughtless and selfish and that is fine. I know you are wrong - most parents are considerate.  It's a minority that take the "sod you" attitude, but, as with all selfish minorities, they have a disproportionate effect.

So, mate, why does your  "truth grenade" not apply elsewhere? I though monty  was happy to jump under a train to allow  his kids to run riot.  Only trains in Costa??

In reply to Iamgregp:

Putting the word 'mate' into as many sentences as yourself is quite possibly not being exactly, err .... 'matey'? You're probably extremely charming in real life but reading your last post doesn't really put you in the best of lights. I keep seeing a red-faced, aggressive man jabbing his finger and it's not a nice picture. MG isn't threatening your children, he's just disagreeing with you on a forum. Why the vitriol?

In reply to captain paranoia:

Therefore a public space. 
Is this undergraduate philosophy all of a sudden? 

In reply to MG:

No. I’m trying to argue that if Monty, or anybody else for that matter, has taken their child to a place where they and others can reasonably expect children to be, and they have been advised by a professional that the best thing to do is to allow their child to “get it out” then they should be allowed to do so without a large degree of ire from others in that place. 

All of this is perfectly reasonable surely?

That’s doesn’t I’m not arguing that all children should be allowed to cause as much disruption as they like in any situation. That would of course be unreasonable.

In reply to Iamgregp:

That's not what you were saying above when apparently I  had no right to not have my day spoilt by wild  children if some "professional" had said they shouldn't have boundaries. If you arguing Costa is an appropriate place to let children run wild  but other venues aren't then we  just disagree more on detail (I think cafes, restaurants etc it's reasonable to expect a degree of calm and privacy), parks, beaches, gardens are places for children letting off steam.

In reply to Lankyman:

Point taken but for what it’s worth I call people mate all the time, but not when angry. Guess tone is lost on here. I’m really not angry nor red faced or finger jabbing!

Guess my tone is meant to be more “come on maaate” like you the tone, you have with your mate in the pub when you’re disagreeing about something but standing your ground whilst keeping it light.

Whilst I might not agree with MG on this issue, he’s always seemed like a nice enough fella. Certainly not made me lose my temper.

In reply to montyjohn:

My later paragraph about seeming non-empathetic was unnecessarily rude, I do apologise for that and regret writing that. You do say that:

And that is a very valid point that we would all do well to consider. My point is that in any environment, there may well be others, adults included, who fall into that same category. Arguing over whose rights trump whose in this scenario just doesn't sound very fun or productive, but it's perhaps worth considering that some people can't just "deal with it" like you suggest. And in a place where one might have a reasonable expectation of peace (a quiet café) or where one cant escape (an aeroplane), all I'm saying is it would be worth remembering this.

If you were sat next to me in a plane in that scenario, you would ruin my day on a level I have very little control about. And that is fine - some days aren't destined to be great days - but please don't think that it's all good because I should just "deal with it". It's not that easy.

In reply to MG:

My recent experience of classical concerts (a drunk couple snorting and giggling through an entire piece before leaving in the interval, their neighbours having a conversation about it mid-movement after they left and someone dying of whooping cough for the vast majority of the third) is that screaming children might at least be an understandable nuisance. 

In reply to Iamgregp:

Thanks for clarifying - seems to be fact of internet forums, no face to face stuff to get context. Anyway, it's way past my bedtime - night, night all!

In reply to MG:

Your day is spoilt by some kids being boisterous in Costa?  Really?  Come now…

Perhaps the devil is in the detail. Go to some high end, bottomless champagne brunch kind of joint and there are kids running amok, you can feel a bit cheesed off. Towcester Costa on a Sunday afternoon less so. In fact that’s exactly kind of what I’d expect?!

Whilst we’re here… why the quote marks around the word professional? That’s an little odd. Are you questioning the legitimacy of child behaviourists? 

In reply to Iamgregp:

Well the relaxing coffee or whatever is, yes.

Some of them yes. There is clearly a lot of grifty nonsense propagated.

In reply to pencilled in:

GCSE law, I think.

In reply to Richard Smith:

Aged 1-4 kids need to be removed by their parents if they have lost the plot....I did the same when mine were little.

Over 4/5 with appropriate internalisation of good boundaries and quiet activities there's no reason they can't manage a 1/2 hour coffee shop.

6+....a bit longer...they (mostly) engage really well all day in school complying with reasonable rules.

All of these generalisations are caveated to accept kids with extra needs may struggle....of which there are many many fewer than seems to be popular thinking these days. I see lots of kids who are not able to tolerate frustration, have little resilience to their immediate needs not being met and some of whom will continue in to adolescence relating to the world as toddlers...

In reply to tehmarks:

Last year I was at the sell-out Lang Lang concert in Birmingham. The first ten or so rows of the stalls were pretty much filled with Chinese families, including many young children. I have to confess my heart sank a bit as I took my seat, but their behaviour was impeccable throughout. By contrast at a recent Paul Lewis recital I had to turn round and shush three adults sat behind me who had no idea that whispering and giggling isn't ok.

As a headteacher I encountered the full spectrum of parenting day in day out, from diabolical to inspirational. I also saw a fair bit of: my child is working through issues; your child is having a meltdown; their child needs taking into care.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

My understanding of the stereotypical Chinese child upbringing isn't something I would want to follow. I work with a few Chinese adults as my delegates, and whilst they are dedicated brilliant individuals, they struggle with self doubt and demonstrate a really undeserved lack of self-worth.

This is obviously very anecdotal from a tiny sample but I think as China is opening up to exploring mental health issues (very slowly, it's more taboo there than it is here I believe) they will uncover some uncomfortable truths that will need dealing with. It's not just parenting style, but also education and authority in general.

We want our adults to be confident, to stick up for themselves, to lead a happy life. Ultimate obedience is unlikely to result in this outcome. Being too relaxed or too strict is likely to result in an outcome we don't want for our children.

I set boundaries and do my best to stick to them. They are not so narrow that I'm constantly having to correct their behaviour (I've had them too narrow in the past and it wasn't sustainable or enjoyable), but not so wide to be nuisance.

I seem to be getting a lot of feedback that I'm happy for my children to be unruly and misbehave, but this just isn't true. Yes I've got a toddler anger management issue to deal with in the last six months, but this will be a small blip in the gran scheme of things. I'll probably barely remember it in five years as the new problems take priority. I've been complimented on trains (usually by elderly women) by how beautifully my children play together. It's not silent, but not disruptive, it's just happy.

Until it inevitably isn't of course............................

In reply to montyjohn:

This is an unbelievably tiresome construction for people who don't have kids, and god forbid, might not want them, to read.

In reply to montyjohn:

I think this is rather sweeping. My school established a very productive link with a school in Shenzhen. I spent a week over there initially, then we had regular student and teacher exchanges and an annual placement of a Chinese language assistant so we could teach very basic Mandarin. My first visit was during the "one child" policy, and all the teenagers I spoke to were very conscious of all their family's hopes being invested in them. They worked incredibly hard. I remember asking about recreation and getting the answer: "work now, live later". Of course, the culture is markedly different in many ways, not least in the great respect there generally is for education and educators. Our partner school proudly displayed an impressive mural dedicated to Confucius in its entrance lobby. This sort of respect obviously doesn't exist to the same degree in UK/US culture. Nor, it seemed to me, did Chinese culture place the same  huge importance on high self-esteem as we do. This is a very significant cultural difference, but I couldn't decide to what extent I thought it was psychologically damaging - if indeed it was.

In reply to spidermonkey09:

MG and Monty have been having their argument since 8 am Monday - I hope they're enjoying it, it certainly lasts longer than a latte.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

It's just a storm in a teacup

In reply to seankenny:

I'm not so sure.

The number of times I've been to the local supermarket and found an aisle completely blocked with; husband pushing trolley (bored out of his mind), wife picking out shopping (and never looking where they're going), whilst kids milling around - is legion.

I always wonder why one of the adults can't stay at home with the little horrors whilst the other does the shopping on their own.

In reply to fred99:

Because it involves trusting the husband with either the shopping or the kids. 

In reply to fred99:

Because young kids often love things like the supermarket, and it's important to find excuses to get kids out of the house so a supermarket is an easy win.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

You'd think their parents would have got them to sit down quietly and stop bothering people by now.

In reply to montyjohn:

Or they have to go by the supermarket on the way back from doing something else as there isn't time to get the kids and one parent home and get back out again.

In reply to montyjohn:

Fill up your much touted enormous Range Rover and drive your family to Cornwall or Brittany.

In reply to seankenny:

How about less trolling. 

In reply to MG:

I've very rarely agreed with Monty on anything, but that's a strawman and not what he was really saying - or at least it didn't seem like that at all to me. Kids having tantrums aren't the kids running around playing/annoying you in a cafe, at least I've never seen that with my own kids or the thousands of kids I have taught. Tantrums tend to be very inward - kids are static and ignore the world around them. 

I still remain very sceptical about the whole "kids running wild" thing anyway - where are these cafes where kids are actually physically interacting with you in some way? What are they doing - climbing on your table? Pinching your muffin? Throwing scrunched up napkins at you? Calling you rude names? I'm trying to think of anything like that I've ever seen. I get a bit annoyed by dogs brushing past me when out walking or at crags, or sniffing or putting their nose into my pack or stuff at crags - and it's not really the dog that annoys me, it's the owner who thinks it's ok to let their dog do that. I also get annoyed by people (often who have been drinking) being loud, abusive and unpleasant in public places, even when those places are pubs where you sort of expect people to be drinking. I'm infuriated by badly behaved children I teach regularly, perhaps far more so than is healthy for someone doing my job - but that's very specific because as a teacher you become the focus of their anger particularly when trying to get them to do something they don't want to. So I do not have the patience of a saint. But particularly little kids, or primary school kids, when I'm out and about in life, I just can't remember a time when their behaviour bothered me. I might be snotty and think "my kids would never talk to me like that", or "my kids are so much more polite than that", but it's still no skin off my nose and doesn't affect my life. Is this just that I'm unbelievably lucky? Or could it be that other people's children wind you up in some way?

In reply to Lankyman:

Or a grande latte mug? This might be bigger and more serious.

In reply to TobyA:

I wasn't actually replying the Monty there but another poster who said "Their [childrens] health and well-being is literally more important than anything in the world to him. ". i.e more important other people's resonable expectations of a cafe.

It's not common in my experience but does happen. A couple of instances I remember: 1) Children chasing around my cafe table playing trying to catch each other and screaming, catching chairs etc, Parents smiling vaguely but doing nothing. 2) Three children plus parents eating in a cafe throwing half the food on the floor, chairs, table and mushing it in. After a while they all left leaving staff to clear up a disgusting mess. Not directly my problem but crappy behaviour none the less.

In reply to the thread:

This TV series deals brilliantly with some of the issues brought up in this thread, if you haven't seen it I heartily recommend it - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b0bp2zq4/there-she-goes
 

In reply to Lankyman:

"This might describe a fair few (caving) club dinners I attended back in the day"

I remember having to write an apology to a certain well known Peak pub after a club dinner.  Not personally though.  Climbing club but with a deep rooted infestation of troglodytes and sun wasters. (Legends, the lot of them)

There were a few shops and a cafe  that I was barred from for the crime of being a kid. Never went in any of them as an adult either. I really hated that and 8-10 years is not too long to hold a grudge.