UKH

Please give some serious consideration to removing the feature of the like and dislike buttons.

I am getting seriously fed up and disheartened with a small yet dedicated band of people hitting the Dislike button irrespective of what I post. I may be thick skinned, but eventually such open and anonymous hatred gets through.

Anonymous bullying is pathetic. If you dislike my posts have the BALLS to put your name to the Dislike Button.
Grown ups tend to post replies explaining why they dislike or disagree, in the form of a discussion.

I'm sure that I am not alone in this request to remove this controversial and for me, personally insulting feature of the site.

This is spoiling my enjoyment of the site.

In reply to The Lemming:
Quite.

Can anyone explain what it's supposed to be for? As far as I can see you can't even tell who has liked or disliked the post let alone why.

All very strange.

In reply to The Lemming:

Disliked as I don't think they should be removed, not because I hate you. I'd be open to making the likes and dislikes visible though to make harrassment more visible, keeping it anonymous seems counter-productive

At least on Facebook I can reply to myself and like my own posts.

In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:


I'm all for disagreement, that's how the world works and how discussion progresses.

However I'm not so tolerant on anonymous harassment, which I have had to endure during all of last year.

In reply to The Lemming:

I don't think they add anything to UKC and can make it downright annoying at times. I'd be happy to see them gone.

In reply to The Lemming:

How about a third "am I bovvered" button for those who can't bring themselves to either like or dislike a post?

To the OP, keep your chin up Mr Lemming - you get some good threads going!

In reply to The Lemming:

There do you feel better now?
Seriously, do you think people post dislikes because of you (or me or anyone else) as opposed to your post? I've never given it any thought or noticed but obviously you have. I shall pay more attention and you should pay less attention, its only a load of bollox in the end.

In reply to The Lemming:

Can you not just ignore them (its not me)?

In reply to The Lemming:

I think the like/dislike buttons are pointless to the extent that I never look to see if people like or dislike my posts. If they haven't got anything useful to say (or even anything at all to say, regardless of whether it's useful or not), I'm not going to expend effort worrying about a mere click of a button.

So I think my question to you is why you're bothered? I can see it's annoying to repeatedly be on the end of a bunch of dislikes, but the dislikes are worthless without a name and a reason.

Another way of looking at it would be to think that the anonymous dislikers probably don't care what you think about them, so there's no good reason why you should care about what they think about you.

In general, I don't think the arrival of the like/dislike buttons has done anything to improve the site.

In reply to The Lemming:

I'd be happy to see it gone - they seem a bit pointless and appear like a lazy person's way of joining in a discussion without actually having to say anything.

The only reason that Like is helpful is that sometimes someone posts a response so eloquent /informative / compelling that you just want to say Like rather than post "hear hear, well said" etc 29 times

I'm not offended by Dislike although some of my most innocuous responses have been disliked leaving me thinking they must dislike me rather than what I'm saying!

In reply to The Lemming:


The troll cage has been opened.

In reply to Moley:

Take a look at The Lemming's posts and how many dislikes they get. It definitely looks personal to me and is out of all proportion with the content of his posts.

In reply to The Lemming:

I like likes, but dislike dislikes. Could we get rid of one and not the other?

In reply to The Lemming:

I really don't understand why people take Internet forums so seriously!?! Don't get me wrong, this is a great place to glean information, it's invaluable in fact! It's also a great place to speak to like minded people and possibly build friendships, but to take random peoples like, or dislike, of your post to heart? That's plain bonkers!?!
We've already had the Cornwall meet cancelled, because the person arranging it left the forum, because of some silly argument or other!?! What's the point? If there's someone in your local that you don't get on with, do you find another pub? Or do you just ignore that person?
Are we measuring our own self worth by how many likes/dislikes we receive? It's nice to see that people agree with what you are saying, but in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

In reply to Clinger:

For the record, I disliked The Lemming's post. Not because I dislike him (I don't know him), but because I disliked his post. I'm a little bored with all the whining about likes/dislikes, so it amused me to hit dislike just because...

In reply to The Lemming:
I've also noticed that you get more than your fair share of dislikes, can't see why, you seem decent enough to me. It's a shame people do that on a small community forum like this, especially when climbers in person are generally very friendly. I'd also like to see likes/dislikes being made public.

I hope you don't take the dislikes to heart as they really mean very little! Maybe consider a change of profile?

In reply to The Lemming:

Somebody famous probably once said

"There is only one thing worse than being disliked ...

Being neither liked nor disliked .."

In reply to

In reply to The Lemming:

Would you be happier if you had the option to turn them off or hide them just for your login? Ignorance is bliss, apparently and if you can't see them you can't get bothered by them.

In reply to The Lemming:

Personally, I take less than the cube root of f*ck all notice of them. However, as far as I can see, they add absolutely zero to the site, yet upset some people, so as far as I'm concerned, they can go.

JW

In reply to The Lemming:

I'd prefer they weren't anonymous.
jk

In reply to The Lemming:


As the site owner I can respond to this!

I will consider it but at the moment it isn't something that worries me at all. We find them extremely useful from a moderating point of view and I think they have a positive effect on reducing stupid posts. They also make it easy to spot really bad posts and can be very encouraging for those who make good contributions. They also help when scrolling through a thread in finding the most pertinent responses - both positive and negative.

There will be some petty individuals who just dislike things - I get plenty of that - but it is usually pretty easy to ignore. Also, a lot of the time the people who are ticking the like/dislike button are the people active on a particular thread anyway.

We are doing a User Survey this year and I will add it as a question on that.

Alan

In reply to Clinger:


We had the Likes running for several months before we turned on Dislikes and no-one really used them. As soon as they had the option, people started expressing their opinions.

Alan

In reply to The Lemming:

I once used the dislike button on a post (it deserved it.) It was from a poster I had never disliked before or since. Almost immediately a rant was posted by them complaining about their "dislike stalker". There's some serious paranoia out there that isn't rooted in reality it seems.

Also, I've noticed on several occasions that I disliked the first post in a thread without intending to. It seems to happen when swiping a thread on an iOS device. Accidental pressing I guess. I'm now more careful and would welcome a bit of consideration going into the mobile interface around this.

Also, sometimes I get some dislikes that I view rather as a badge of honour. If my opinion on some things didn't piss off some people it wouldn't be much of an opinion... Treat the dislikes on your questions as such and you'll be just fine.

In reply to The Lemming:

Maybe there could be a premium membership of UKC? For a pound a week, sensitive people could have dislikes of their posts hidden.

In reply to The Lemming:

Hi Lemming,

This bit is not personal as there's a RIDICULOUS amount of "people dislike me, woe is me, bullying, awful" posts i nthe last few months.

If you use any other social media you will know that the like and dislike function, where applicable, can be used to show you don't agree with something, do agree with something, something made you laugh etc. It depends on the context. But mostly when you look at UKC it's do you agree or disagree with something.

It's useful. I read some posts and rather than respond with a lengthy repetition of what some people above me have said I will simply like their posts. A highly liked post should be indicative of a popular opinion. this prevents over long posts that no one wants to read through, and it also stops ridiculous and trolly posts that no one wants to be on here in the first place.

It's not bullying. It's also not something you or anyone else should be taking as bullying. If you are so worried about strangers not agreeing with you then don't post online - it's that simple. I'm not saying it's good or nice, but internet personas are pretty harsh and unforgiving. IF you can't accept and deal with that then don't bother (I get it, there's some online games I don't play just due to the level of abuse)

More personal....

you post a lot of drivel. I love some of it as do many, it's great for starting a debate, but some of what you put is drivel and not worth posting. This is a risk if you're posting a lot of content, and personally I'd say carry on, but if some people are going to show they don't like the worst posts by disliking. That's perfectly normal.

Generally ....

will everyone on here please chill the hell out and accept they can be disliked without needing a weep?! grow up!

In reply to jkarran:


I agree. The like button can mean just that and saves a need to say just that in an unnecessary post.

Just, please, have it so we can all see who is clicking the button.

In reply to The Lemming:

Maybe there should be an option to allow liking/disliking of your posts (like there is an option to allow voting on photos). Yes, the like/dislike thing can be very negative but I think it might encourage some of the witty and incisive posting. And if someone makes a blatantly arsy post and disallows likes/dislikes, it will only make them look even more arsy.

In reply to The Lemming:
If you dislike my posts have the BALLS to put your name to the Dislike Button.


He/ She may have a good point, just to dislike or like is pointless, without some reason,,,, unless it is so obvious ie; don't shit on belay ledges.

I picked up a few dislikes on walls and training, I sincerely could not understand why, so I asked I got reply's, and some good feedback,, thank you. but not one of the respondents was a dis-liker .... They nover come out of the wood work even when asked
so yes grow up or go ply on face book

In reply to Babika:

Ditto, which says to me that the like button is the more useful one, because if somebody is being offensive or something, it may be a good thing for them to have why outlined, rather than to have 32 dislikes on their post.


Same here, though it proved to be a nudge towards deciding I don't care what people think, so it didn't matter in the end.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think a 'hide function' could be a good idea so people can opt not to see them, and the people who want to see them can do so everybody is happy.

In reply to Babika:

I sometimes find it useful for judging whether someone who I agree with on a contentious issue is getting their point across - if their posts are getting more dislikes than likes then I'll be more inclined to post something backing up their argument than if people seem to be mostly in agreement with them.

Wouldn't object to them being non-anonymous, though.

Also, consistently targeting one person regardless of what they post seems like personal abuse and should probably warrant a warning / ban if the victim is bothered enough by it to complain to the mods.

In reply to Scarab9:




I agree, you are correct, most of what I post is drivel. This is why I mostly post in 'The Pub' forum as my stuff will die after 7 days.

When away from work, I don't meet a lot of people in real life, other than other dog walkers, and I use this site for idle chit-chat about what ever pops into my furry little brain to get a bit of social interaction. Most if not everybody on here can spot my drivel from genuine questions as the OP Title sums it up quite succinctly.

I have thick skin and can tolerate quite a lot, otherwise I would be in the wrong job. However I can also when people are anonymously using the Dislike button for a purpose. And one or two contributors further up the discussion have taken a look at some of my archived threads and noticed that I tend to get more dislikes that would be expected from some of my OP's or replies. I guess that I am not alone with having my own little band of stalkers. yes I can ignore them, but having over a year of such attention tends to sap at my tolerance.

This OP, as expected, has turned into a game of zapping the dislike button. Yes, I've painted a big Bull's Eye Target on the OP. But what excuse or explanation is there for other threads of mine?

Normally I can ignore all this sh1te, but today it has p1ssed me off. Tomorrow I will wake up and forget about it.

The problem will still be there with the saddo's that stalk me.

In reply to Turdus torquatus:

NO!! that's £52 a year don't give that A.J. Ideas

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



Thank you for taking the time to reply.

It is much appreciated.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

My votes would be for:

1) make the perpetrators visible; most other forums do this, and don't allow anonymous like/dislike
2) add the user option to not see them

3) add 'ignore member'... function.

In reply to The Lemming:


I would like to register amusement at the irony of someone describing disliking a post as 'anonymous bullying' and then going on to accuse said bully of lacking balls.

Man The F*ck Up, as my mother would say.

In reply to wintertree:


The Like/Dislike buttons now toggle*. So, if you hit it accidentally, it will 'light up'. If you hit it again, it will remove it.

* I think previously, you could cancel a Like by Unlike, and an Unlike by Like.
No if you've Liked something, but hit Unlike, it removes the like and sets Unlike. And vice versa.

In reply to The Lemming:







Don't take it personally, it's only the internet and clicking dislike on someones post is not bullying.

You have a history of posts that appear to be designed to provoke some heated debate, if you poke enough people you are inevitably going to upset some of them.

In reply to The Lemming:
I disliked your original post out of childish sillyness , however I have liked your 17.55 post as it makes more of an understandable case . I can't really see why they are anonymous.

In reply to captain paranoia:



This has some merit.


Unecessary as it is very easy to ignore them if you don't like them.


IMO this is a somewhat childish solution, if you choose to converse on the internet you need to take the rough with the smooth.

In reply to captain paranoia:





This is definitely the way forward, most other forums and social media shows the names of the likes and dislikes.
I wouldn't give the option to not have them.
Definitely add an ignore / mute / block button. Hit block on a person and you can not see or reply to them and they can't see or reply to you.

In reply to timjones:


Clearly, for some people, it isn't... And some people just plain don't like the idea at all.


Why? See the earlier comment about idiots in the pub. If they're idiots, I can ignore them. Ideally, I'd exclude them from my pub.
If I can ignore them here, in my virtual pub, I don't have to waste my time reading their rubbish. I see it as a fairly adult reaction.

Again, plenty of other forums offer this feature.

In reply to john arran:


Personally I don't give a flying f*ck when my posts get dislikes or likes, I think like others have said that they add nothing useful to the site. But you might be onto something there for people it does bother.

In reply to The Lemming:

It puts me off posting too. I'd prefer if the likes and dislikes were no longer anonymous. It's one thing using it as 'agree/disagree' during a political thread, but that is only one tiny fraction of the way the forums are used. In The Pub there are intermittent threads about UKCers themselves ('Forum Legends', 'Poster of the Year' etc) and these used to be a hotbed of conviviality. But being able to click 'dislike' when someone has posted a kind, positive comment about another user is nothing short of 'I dislike that person'. So the dislikes can be - and are - used as anonymous spitefulness.

In reply to The Lemming:

At the end if the day Lem, there's only you, me and about 12 other people on this site who I consider sane. I would buy you a pint

In reply to The Lemming:

There's another way to look at it. I think maybe some people don't appreciate your shall we say 'unique' and prolific posting, especially folk who aren't so regular on here. Personally I kinda like it, but I've been here a while and got used to it. I think you've had more than your fair share of flak. But most of that flak used to be negative and often insulting posts on your threads, now there's less of that coz they just click dislike instead.
Ignore the dislikes- ignore the @rses.

In reply to The Lemming:

We had this argument months ago, but no one seemed bothered. I think you're right. The worst effect of the Like and Dislike buttons is that they discourage people from being too outspoken, which makes for less interesting and honest discussions. I know in the past when I've said something mildly controversial, and had loads of Dislikes for saying so, I've thought, why bother? Why waste time on UKC? I think loads of people have been driven away (I know dozens). Sad. Even by saying this I'm probably making a mistake, because last time I did so I was accused of 'whining'.

PS. The thread about initiating a swing on a static line is surely one of the most interesting we've seen here in quite a while, and right up to the standards of the good old days c. 10-15 years ago. There are just fewer of them, that's all.

In reply to aln:

One thing that's certainly true is that there are far fewer insulting posts. I think UKC went through a very bad spate of this c. 5-7 years ago, and Alan had to have quite a massive purge.

In reply to The Lemming:

I'd try and remember none of the likes or dislikes are personal, just others agreeing or dusagreeing mostly. Lest that's what I use it for. It's the posts where someone makes a personal attack on someone, that it gets nasty. When a disagreement moves beyond into personal insults. This latter behaviour is one I would consider more of an issue, that can quickly lead to true bullying.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



Might you consider a 'hide' function for the dislikes and likes?

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I think they're really shit, partly because of anonymous disliking. It's slightly annoying to put a bit of effort into a post that might have quite a lot of content to get an anonymous response that's a single click that says absolutely nothing and requires no effort. That's not part of a discussion, it's an irritating distraction that adds no value. The like feature isn't as bad (because you don't need to give reasons why you agree with a post that contains that reasons for its conclusion), but it's still crap because it can encourage posters to 'chase likes' rather than just say what they think.

But the idea of identified dislikes is probably worse - it'll just derail every thread with 'why did you dislike me post', or spill over into emails (worse!).

My view: get rid. Second best, allow us to switch'em off.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

You've said it perfectly. It's just so childish and lazy for anonymous posters to click 'Dislike'. Just what does it contribute to the site, except negatively, by acting as a deterrent for people to speak freely?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

When I mentioned insulting posts I was referring to those aimed at Lemming. But I take your point, unfortunately the 'purging' you refer to also removed some interesting characters and diluted the banter, especially in the Pub. But it's a fine line with banter online, easily misjudged.
But still, I often wonder how Simon4 gets away with it. People have been banned for a lot less.

In reply to aln:

Good point re latter personage. Some of the bans have been a bit baffling. Sutty being an obvious example.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Not sure we needed to know this.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Best be careful, discussing banned posters (postees?) is a bannable offence. But yes he was a loss to the forum.

In reply to Willi Crater:

Thanks Willi - you've made me laugh. A lot

In reply to aln:


The people he does his personal insult rants about aren't bothered and don't report it.

In reply to Dave the Rave:


Just like Sheldon, I've got a certificate to say that I am sane.

In reply to The Lemming:



Sheldon ? I know spike had one who is sheldon

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


I totally agree with you there. Since the introduction of like/dislike buttons, much of the discussion on this site has either become polarised or sanitised and and stunted. I believe that the dislike button and counter beside them has a subliminally subversive way of stunting conversation by individuals drifting away from the conversation rather than replying and qualifying their statements.

The art of discussion, banter, arguments and insults has died off, as a result.

In reply to The Lemming:


Hello? Someone hitting the "dislike" button is not "bullying" FFS.


Someone hitting the "dislike" is not "insulting"


Perhaps you should look into your own role in this debacle first.



Perhaps histrionic bullshit like this is the reason you get so many dislikes? That and the fact that you are so prolific.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I know that Jon. He had a go at you recently that being the better man you didn't rise to. I had a go at him anyway for my own amusement.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Well it helps put Roadrunner in his place. (No offence intended)☺

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Surely you can't claim to be truly outspoken or controversial if you let a few dislikes bother you

In reply to captain paranoia:



Do you own a pub


Surely it's our virtual pub rather than yours, mine or anyone elses?

If you don't like a pub you have the option of leaving and finding a better one. At least this one doesn't show non-stop sports coverage on multiple bigscreen TVs



How is it possible to hold any sort of discussion if you can't see some peoples contributions because you've opted to ignore them?

In reply to The Lemming:

Serious suggestion for you here; a line or two of custom CSS will solve the problem for you entirely.

There's a plug-in for chrome here:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stylish/fjnbnpbmkenffdnngjfgmeleo...

... and the CSS below should do the trick!

```
.messageActions > .btn-group {
display: none;
}
```

In reply to The Lemming:

Mine was the 90th dislike. Get over yourself!

In reply to timjones:


Because I don't reply to everyone, or follow all streams in a thread. And idiots are often ignored by everyone, so don't feature in conversations, other than as idiotic interjections...

In reply to The Lemming:

There's been over 100 likes/dislikes on the OP.
Can we all just leave it and go to bed now. Please.

In reply to Moley:



I'm not going to bed. I'm watching the footie!

In reply to The Lemming:

Remove the dislike button or make both like and dislike buttons attributable so that you can see who has voted what, in the same manner as is done with photos.

T.

In reply to The Lemming:

I know your pain. I feel horribly victimised when people dislike my comments about the simply incomparable, Skoda Octavia estate.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:



What do you gain by making them attributable?

It will only feed the paranoia of those who are prone to thinking that they have stalkers.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:



Is that actually the case?

Chris

In reply to The Lemming:

I think your taking this far too personally.

In reply to The Lemming:
If no one ever 'disliked' what I posted, I might start thinking I was infallible, which could ultimately lead to the wearing of silly hats and Vatican residence.
Pope Diluted I has a certain ring to it, and you'd be welcome to kiss it 😉

In reply to The Lemming:

Over the piece, I've disliked some of your posts and liked others - probably in an 80-20 / 70-30 split. It's not personal per se, it's just that I either disagree with what you're saying or it's yet another irritating, dumb thread, not always apparent from the title. Sometimes I'll detail why, other times it's quicker and easier (yes, lazier) for me to hit the 'dislike' button.

On others, you sometimes ask for advice on a product or situation. That involves me going to some trouble by posting a reply, which then you frequently ignore or don't acknowledge and just ask more questions till you get a reply that you like or agree with.

Plenty of folk dislike many of my posts no doubt - I'm not really that bothered, so often I seem to not notice the 'scores on the doors'. You can't please all of the people all of the time, and if you're going to be so active on-line and post as much as you do, you have to take the rough with the smooth. In short, there is a solution to the issue, however I suspect it's not a palatable one for you.

In reply to The Lemming:

Why not just ignore them, the real question is why does it bother you?

Although confusing sometimes as to what people are actually disagreeing with, isn't that their problem.


Would you feel better if the button said "I agree with what you've just said, but to type that would take a while and I'm only re-stating the views you've just stated" and "I disagree with what you've just said, but to type that would take a while and you know what you've just typed is either bullshit or what ever I write isn't going to change anything. Besides I haven't got time.", buttons?

In reply to jkarran:


i dont mind, i voted dislike

but i do like the irony of 100+ dislikes.

In reply to The Lemming:
My old phone screen use to crash and then random click links on pages, so sorry if I have ever disliked one of your posts. I didn't mean too!!

In reply to The Lemming:

I've only just read this thread. I've scanned the last third.This is because I should be making more inroads into the great long list of things that I have to do on my day off(including going back into work for one thing, and doing paperwork for work for another). I find this website to be like an addiction and try to limit myself as it "wastes" time that I do not have much of. So I like to use the like and dislike buttons as a way of interacting more quickly, especially at times when someone else has said something that I agree with. As someone higher up the thread has said ,like to me means agree with the thread and dislike means disagree(rather than truly dislike). If the buttons were not there, there may be more repetition of the same sentiment, which would make the threads more tedious.
As regards stalking, I had not even thought about it. Anyone who aims to pull another user down without any real reason must have a rather a sad life. If anything I tend to look forward to reading threads by certain users, you amongst them,along with people like pursuedbyabear,tall clare,timmd,Gordon Stainforth,babika et al. Sometimes it is because I know that there may be a different slant on things and that that poster may actually change my view on things.
So take heart, there are a lot of us out there who bear no grudge, and actually like you posting.

I suspect that attributing likes and dislikes may have something to do with bandwith or size of web.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


Doesn't this depend on whether you think a 'dislike' means 'disagree'? I think this is the core of the problem, and maybe it's a generational thing. Like and dislike are such ambiguous yet emotive terms (infantile even, which wouldn't be surprising considering their origin). I quite like lots of people I disagree with about almost everything and I occasionally dislike someone even though I agree with them.

To like or dislike someone you need to have at least some idea who they are, and even to like or dislike what they say is to some extent a personal judgement. On the other hand it may be perfectly reasonable to disagree with the content of a single comment from an anonymous poster.

When you say that dislikes reduce 'stupid posts' that implies that you agree that they aren't simply an expression of disagreement (because obviously you wouldn't want to moderate or remove a post simply because it was controversial).

If I react unfavourably to a post that could because it's a perfectly reasonable argument I happen not to agree with. It could be that it's offensive, or nonsensical, or tedious, or even because the grammar and punctuation are especially poor. Which button should I press?

In reply to veteye:


Mindwidth, more like.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


In the main I think they are used to express displeasure rather than disagreement. That is what makes them useful to moderators since you can find the offensive posts easily and people (hopefully) might realise that their point of view is not acceptable. Strong disagreement should surely result in a response.


That is entirely up to you. I think you may be reading to much into it all though. If you see the number of views on threads and then tally up the number of likes/dislikes, they are only used by a small fraction of users hence can't be regarded as anything very definitive.

More generally :

On the anonymous or attributed like/dislike function, I strongly disagree that this would be any benefit at all to the forum since I am certain it would lead to paranoia, witch hunts and general nastiness as people tracked down those who had 'disliked' their posts.

One idea we had when adding them, which is probably worth looking at again, is to increase the range of possibilities.

Like - Agree - Useful - Disagree - Dislike

Something like that maybe.

Alan

In reply to veteye:


Well it would be possible, but it would certainly slow the forums down, however, as stated above, that isn't my main objection.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I think a problem with using likes and dislikes as a moderator is some of the most regular posters state they don't use them (I'd say a good number of your more important users), so you are missing their views. These non-users either tolerate or actively dislike the function (with no wish to press a button when attributed words make the point much clearer). In many ways its a nail in the coffin of good debate. Even if you wholeheatedly agree its nice for the OP if you, say that, or just add +1. Time after time people attribute their reasons in threads such as this but these get bundled up with other reasons (which might in extremis mean the opposite). There is no way we can tell even average intent, especially in complex posts. Karma on UKB does the opposite: its attributed to the person who gives it and specific with reasons and the way it's used is self policing. Persistent offenders like Sloper topped the list even in his slightly more adult UKB guise.

Dislikes ARE used here for active and passive bullying and the lack of visibke action on this looks like you don't care....some of those persistent folk disliking every post Lemming makes should be in breach of site guidelines and if they dont stop, get banned.

I'd like to see you drop them from the forums but a button to turn them off fromour site view ould be a kind compromise.

Finally, it has to be said, this post is just a blatant attempt to steal my record dislikes when I started a similar thread. Lemmings a good chap but this is a low

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I think that the buttons have been a great addition to the site. In fact, I'd like to see the functionality extended.

As a new feature request, would it be possible to allow me to automate my dislikes, such that I needn't even bother reading posts, from certain users, in order to click on the 'Dislike' button? It'd save me time, and ensure that I can pursue my feuds more efficiently... Ta.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Yes why not go with the 5 states of short response.

Perhaps you could also ration the dislikes in some way.(or am I trolling?)

In reply to Clauso:

My first ever like... (I've never disliked - and never will)!

In reply to Clauso:

Maybe thats a better way to make the point

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



Oh for heaven's sake! If people have something to say, they should say it. If they don't have anything useful to say, I honestly don't see how a menu of options makes life any better for anyone.

In reply to Clauso:

I pressed like on your reply,but I do not like functionality. Function is far better and more succinct!

In reply to tony:

But it saves time, and avoids another reply that says I agree with you, or I like that idea.

In reply to veteye:


And achieves what? Because the likes and dislikes are anonymous, they make no useful contribution to a discussion. The person who is liked or disliked, or agreed or disagreed with, has no idea what the nature of the like/dislike or the dis/agreement is. As others have pointed out, this is supposed to be a place of discussion. A few likes or dislikes serve no purpose in informing the discussion.

In reply to tony:


If you have a group discussion in person you will get people nodding or shaking their heads, muttering the odd assent or dissent, and it definitely adds to the discussion without necessarily providing more content. It certainly helps to get feedback on whether what is being said is broadly well received or not and buttons certainly have the potential to fulfil that kind of role, even i many think the current format isn't working too well.

In reply to john arran:


Hmm, not sure about that. Online discussions are obviously quite different. There's no way to assess body language or tone, or any of the other visual and verbal cues which feed into the kind of discussions you're talking about - online discussions stand alone by the words used in the posts. And if there is a prevailing mood or tone in an online discussion, that quickly becomes apparent from the nature of the posts - anyone spouting arrant nonsense is going to know about it soon enough, as is anyone who comes out the definitive grade for TPS.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Unfortunately I don't think a lot of people, me included, are using them for that purpose.

I've been using them in the following context, Like = "Bravo", Dislike = "Bollocks".

It saves me time and no worse than typing, "I totally agree with what you have written."
Which adds nothing to the argument.

If someone writes something offensive I usually take the time to tell them so.

In reply to tony:



Which is the whole idea, from my point of view, of the like dislike!! It's a virtual nod of the head or round of applause, depending on how many there are. Or of course a thumbs down or a lot of booing.

It doesn't have to be taken personally.

In reply to Alan James - UKC



How about a traffic light system, expanded to maybe the five options you suggested, ranging from RED for 'strongly disagree'and GREEN for 'strongly agree' (or like)? This might keep it less personal and simply give an overall flavour of the reaction to a particular post.

In reply to The Lemming:

No more anonymous than everyone posting under a made-up username and not having to give their full address and phone number in their profile.

Like and Dislike buttons can be nuisance, but then getting lots of likes for a comment can be quite rewarding for some (like a little stamp of social approval). The people who take it seriously are the ones who will be most affected by it.

Try posting something really nice or funny and see how many likes you get and how good that makes you feel. If you don't care, then just ignore it.

It is the next step in online communication and is probably here to stay, best thing to do is get a coping strategy.

In reply to krikoman:


But I honestly don't see that they achieve that. Apart from the outrageously good or bad posts, few posts attract more than a tiny handful of likes/dislikes, so the numbers are pretty meaningless, and the outrageously good or bad posts will attract genuinely useful written responses.


Quite agree, but it does seem that some users feel personally targetted. I do think it's pretty feeble to use the dislike function to pick on someone, as does appear to be the case. I also think it's a bit feeble to take them seriously, but I haven't been at the wrong end of the dislike button on what appears to be a systematic targetting, so I'm probably not in a position to say how to deal with being picked on as the Lemming feels he has been.

In reply to The Lemming:



I think you need to pull yourself together or stop using the site.

It's the internet...not bible group.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


Isn't that what 'report abuse' is for?

If you want to ease the moderator's job, why not add a 'report abuse' button for each post, rather than the entire thread? Then you'll be notified with razor precision...

...except when people hit the button by accident when scrolling on touch interface devices... at least you have the confirmation page.

In reply to The Lemming:

I think it's obvious that certain people have dislike stalkers and that it's upsetting for them. I don't use the dislike button, if I disagree strongly enough I will post my disagreement in words.

Contrary to what I thought before they were introduced, I think the like button is quite a useful way of gauging opinion.

In reply to The Lemming:

At least 50% of the threads on UKC thrive on controversy - and if you get dislikes then you've done well to promote discussion !! The other possibility is that you get no reaction - which is much more upsetting. Whjen I skim down a thread and see 137 dislikes it is immediately intruiging - to inquire further

In reply to The Lemming:

137 dislikes... I think you're in the minority. That must be a record.

In reply to The Lemming:

I have to say, I never even see my own likes/dislikes, as I don't generally look at my post again (unless there has obviously been a misunderstanding). I read the posts that have been added to the thread since, but don't even think to look at whether people like my post or not!?!
As for having virtual stalkers.... Really? Is this more a case of inflated self importance? Admittedly, there are a few people on here that take everything far too personally and might give the odd vindictive dislike, but I very much doubt that anyone is so pathetic that they would go around disliking every post you make, just because you'd offended them in some way!?!

In reply to Fraser:



Or how about taking a few seconds to press a few buttons which compose a few words on the subject?

Is life that short that a few seconds of 'finger pecking' on a keyboard it too much time spent on making a reply?

In reply to Lead dnf:


Or it shows the weakness in the simple like/dislike model.
It could show disagreeing or it could just be people finding it amusing to dislike a post complaining about dislikes.

In reply to KevinD:



Which perhaps shows why they shouldn't be taken too seriously.

In reply to ScottTalbot:

Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case. There are certain posters that within minutes of them starting a thread or adding a comment to a thread will always accumulate a number of dislikes regardless of how controversial the post is.

It seems that there are people vindictive enough to do this, and Mr Lemming isn't the only victim, there are plenty of others that have acquired dislike stalkers

Another reason to get rid of the feature is that threads about likes/dislikes seem to now be more common than Climbing threads

In reply to The Lemming:

I think that the two dislikes are saying like me, that you may have the time,but most of us find it quicker to say no, you are wrong.It does take too long to write this when I could have ticked dislike/disagree in less than a second.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

If there are people on here that are that pathetic, we should just pity them. They will only do it as long as it bothers you though.

In reply to ScottTalbot:


How do we do that when we don't know who they are? Unlike you or I and everyone else who types posts, people who only use the like/dislike buttons are immune.

In reply to Fraser:

Sounds great. Can we ensure we get the 'neither agree or disagree' option in the middle?

...what were the options again?

In reply to The Lemming:

Have you not thought that there might be people who like you dislike of the dislike button, think of the joy your giving them.

It's not all about you, you know.

Seriously though, your profile gives your age as 10, maybe you should remove the irony.

In reply to The Lemming:
So, some people don't like some of the things you post and you want the moderators of the forum to change it just so it suits you?

Grow up.

In reply to The Lemming:

I really have trouble seeing how the dislike button is bullying! You might as well argue that the like button is sycophancy. For me, at least, being several time zones over, the like/dislike buttons allow an asynchronous nod of agreement or shake of the head - and as Alan said, there are an enormous number of visitors to the site who never contribute at all. But they may be enthusiastic pushers of like/dislike buttons. Who cares? If they don't actually write something it's really a minuscule contribution, about as noteworthy as a gnat bite.
Of course, several hundred gnat bites might be a bit annoying....
I certainly wouldn't feel that the like/dislike buttons going away would be a bad thing.
One of the major annoyances of the modern world is the exhortation to "like us on facebook/twitter/social digital media du jour. I hate to think how many mental processing cycles I've wasted reading that!

In reply to The Lemming:

Somewhat ironically, by complaining about your phantom dislikers, you have seemed only to accomplish a thorough recruitment drive of other users who will now notice your name and proceed to dislike regardless of what you post.

I believe the terminology here is 'facepalm'.

In reply to The Lemming:


Frankly, yes! It's all about efficiency. I could have just hit the dislike button there on your post but this has now taken up several seconds of my life I'll never get back.

Remind us again why you don't have any issue with anonymous likes, it's just the dislikes. Sounds like you want your cake and eat it.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


Umm - not really!

In reply to The Lemming:

Surely this cant be legit?


Just to let you know, I disliked your post. I am sure you're a nice bloke though.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


Hi Alan,

I would be inclined to question your last assumption. A lot of 'lurkers' stay that way precisely because they lack confidence when it comes to expressing opinions online, so an anonymous 'dislike' button might perhaps give them the opportunity to express disagreement where they would otherwise remain silent. While I recognise that UKC is run by climbing enthusiasts, it also appears to be run on business lines and so I would have thought that content (threads/ contributions) that attracts readers, thereby increasing the audience for advertising, would be at a premium regardless of whether those readers agree or disagree with it. How do you use the 'dislike button' to differentiate the sort of content that alienates readers and and sends them away from the sort of thing that piques them into returning? And do you think that measures which encouraging likehunters and likehunting make for better/ more stimulating content, or the reverse?

Also, what do you do about people who manipulate or abuse this function? Something similar happened 10 years ago in the Friends Reunited site when a political candidate for a elected post in Greater London mobilised large numbers of supporters to 'report' people who questioned him in what he considered to be an unhelpful way. In UKC, the motives might be different but if we take Lemming's account at face value, there is the possibility of similar things going on here.

In reply to Andy Morley:


I think that the most important function of the like/dislikes for me are precisely this - to have better indicators of what the forum is like for occasional or first time visitors. A dubious post stands out far more when the rest of the forum has voted against it with dislikes, and vice-versa. People can see the mood of the forum more easily and this is what I see when I look at threads - they reflect opinion in general, and a couple of misplaced dislikes here and there are completely irrelevant in my book.


I don't know the answer to this one. It is true that the huge involving discussions that used to take place on this forum are less common, but the number of people who view the forums seems to have increased - more people posting less, but the topics seem just as wide ranging. From a moderating point of view, it has been considerably easier in the last 2 or 3 years following some stricter policies but I also think that the like/dislike button has had a positive part to play in that.

Alan

In reply to pneame:


Nailed it there.

As for this idea that one push of a dislike button by someone for a comment, which is all we are allowed after all, constitutes "bullying"is at best stupid, at worse rampant paranoia.

If someone follows others about hitting "dislike" on everything they post, then who is the person with the problem? If anyone finds themselves doing this, they should seek help.

In reply to I can eat 50 eggs:


Forget like/dislike, now you've gone and pressed the god button.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Is it true to say that it is the off belay forum that generates a lot of L&D's ?
Any merit in removing it from off belay, in the hope that the clickers will move to the pub and a more considered and involved debate will then take place in off belay.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

One of the main problems in respect of those new to the site is established loadmouths being rude to folk in the beginners forum. Also in terms of advice that might be helpful to newer climbers, some people can't resist putting in a view that they are too ignorant to realise is just wrong. In neither situation are dislike butons indicating anything useful (despite the first being a clear breach of the site rules and common decency) .

The only clear thing I get from dislikes is a solid vocal minority don't like posts complaining about dislikes. Maybe you could give us some examples to show some better information that has come from the use of dislikes?

In reply to Offwidth:


What do you do if you dislike a post that dislikes people who dislike dislikes?

In reply to The Lemming:

That's hilarious. 168 people took the trouble to dislike your post.

I did too, but only for the comedy value and because most of your post read like a troll!

In reply to Andy Morley:

Sorry, that dislike was me. Couldn't resist. Too meta....

In reply to johnjohn:


Put it this way:
To the people who hit the 'dislike' button - wtf are you even doing reading stuff that you dislike in the first place? Why not just skip and move on?

To the people who want to see the dislike button removed - if you didn't have it, some of the people who use it might then want to whine about how they dislike some posts, leading people like me to say something like I said just now and so the whole thing would probably snowball, thus diluting the real content.

In reply to johnjohn:
I'd like to dislike and like it. Mods can we have this feature please?

Can we have an 'indifferent' button please

In reply to Andy Morley:


How can you not like something if you haven't read it?!?!

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm not sure what 'dislike' achieves. I use 'Like' when someone has said something that I agree with and have nothing more or haven't got time to contribute; if I disliked something I would think about it and post the reason. The two buttons aren't equal and opposite. If someone posted 'Jeremy Hunt is a great bloke and the saviour of the NHS' I would provide reasons for my disagreement; just clicking 'Dislike ' would be a bit pathetic.

Personally I think the only thing *more* pathetic than anonymously pressing the Dislike button is worrying about it. So go ahead, punk, make my day and press it! I truly won't care.

In reply to Lusk:


I just skim stuff and only read in any depth if what I see looks interesting.

In reply to Lusk:

I haven't read today's daily mail

Ive read enough of them in the past to be pretty certain I wouldn't like it if I did...

In reply to Andy Morley:


That explains a lot..!

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:



Interesting protocol...

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


Only a complete muppet would spend his/her time reading stuff they weren't interested in and then disliking it. Probably around 80% of the users of the 'dislike' button fall into that category.

In reply to Andy Morley:


Dislike it.

In reply to mark20:

meh.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

yes

In reply to Andy Morley:

I use the dislike button quite a lot. If I dislike a post, but can't be arsed to get into a debate about it, I hit dislike. If there's any irony to be had by hitting dislike, I hit it.
I generally don't have massive amounts of time to live my life on here (it is very quiet this week though lol), so use the buttons to quickly express an opinion.

In reply to ScottTalbot:


I did say 80%

In reply to Andy Morley:

In reply to Andy Morley:


Can I refer the Honorable Gentleman to the question I posted here;

http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=632393&v=1#x8211900

The Honorable Gentleman seems reluctant to answer the question.

to try to indicate a bit of satire (even if it is poor)

In reply to Eeyore:


If I remember correctly, your question wasn't really a question, it was more you wondering in a slightly convoluted way whether or not you ought to be offended by something. It's exactly what the 'dislike' button was invented for!

In reply to The Lemming:

I find the likes and dislikes quite useful with technical questions. It's very easy to spot wrong advice if it gets lots of dislikes.

In reply to Andy Morley:
My thoughts are why invent the dislike button. Your first sentence was really helpful to me, but if I just got a dislike I can only adapt my thoughts based upon how many likes/dislikes I get.


The other thought is 'Was I trying to bully you'.

In reply to Eeyore:

At least he's finally agreeing that the dislike button has a use...

In reply to Eeyore:


The trouble is, most people who complain online aren't really any more helpful in what they say than if they just hit a 'dislike' button. This is a realisation that has been developing on the wider Internet for some time, viz the following:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=offended&client=safari&channel=ip...

(Not sure if that link will work for people not using Safari on an iPad - the world holds its breath...)

In reply to ScottTalbot:

It was me who liked your post BTW - nothing other than the fact I appreciated the humour.

In reply to Eeyore:


What, so liking my post doesn't mean you love me? :'(

In reply to The Lemming:

A dislike from me, I think on some threads, memorably the one about the guy who was p*ssed off with needle sports as they couldn't price match for a portaledge in just the way he wanted them to, it gives a very useful gauge for where the weight of the forum's opinion lies.

Also when I did once have something less than complimentary to say about your threads you told me in no uncertain terms to go f*ck myself, so I'm quite happy to dislike away anonymously.

Note since then I've grown to like your threads more, and I am not your dislike stalker! I honestly think there are some odd people who have too much time on their hands who go through whole threads disliking every post.

In reply to Bobling:



Don't be absurd - it's pretty easy to write a script to do that (can give you the php (or Java) code if you like). Hang on - does this mean I have too much time on my hands? Damn.

In reply to Bobling:



Please excuse the temporary pseudo, because for some reason I can't log in with my usual name, however I hope that we have managed to rub along without stepping on each other's toes too much.

In reply to wintertree:

If that was me I did have someone disliking every single post of mine no matter if it expressed an opinion or not. I started a thread about having a dislike stalker because it was rather odd behaviour and if I had upset someone that much and not realised I probably should apologise. You and I have disagreed, but you have always explained your case clearly and even persuaded me to think differently on occasion. So I don't think you would be a dislike stalker.

As for the paranoia, you could be right because several people posted to say they had been disliking due to thumbs on mobile phones.

In reply to The Lemming:

I can't see a problem (apart from possible technical ones) with the originator of a "like" or "dislike" being identified. Debate should be open, not anonymous.

In reply to Temp Lemming:


Oh dear - even your browser dislikes you!

(Only joking - have a commiseratory like).

In reply to Bobling:


Nearly 12 hours since you posted and no "dislike"!. The stalker is obviously lazy and not an early riser either

In reply to Trangia:


If the disliker wanted to debate, they'd type a post. The point of disliking is to disagree, when you can't really be bothered to enter the debate, whether that's for time reasons or whatever...

In reply to ScottTalbot:
"The point of disliking is to disagree, when you can't really be bothered to enter the debate, ..."

An utterly pointless contribution to a thread if no reason is given. Dislike what? The author of the post? Part of the post - if so, what part? Or all the post? The spelling? The grammar? The tone of the post? The subject matter of the post? A forum is about discussion, not making meaningless contributions. You are making an assumption when you say "the point of disliking is to disagree" How do you know? Look up the meaning of dislike.

I'm with the OP on this.

In reply to The Lemming:

I like the dislike button.

In reply to Trangia:

Dislikes can be very helpful.
If wrong advice is given it is very easy to spot it when the post is given many dislikes. If it's a long threat replies might not get noticed.
In discussions about technical subjects or injury rehab sometimes seemingly helpful advice can be totally wrong. I'm glad there are dislikes for that.

In reply to douwe:

Isn't it even more important that if someone is posting crap advice, then those that disagree come out and openly say so? Simple pressing the "dislike" button is meaningless and unhelpful for the reasons I gave above.

In reply to Trangia:


Yes it is.

In reply to Trangia:



I agree. I think the dislike button can just be anonymous way of going 'bleah' in somebody's direction.

In reply to douwe:

Show me a single really good example. I've seen lots of good and bad advice with no 'likeness' and some of both with votes in both directions.

In reply to The Lemming:
Interesting thread.

I must be one of the few who have never clicked the dislike button on you.

Nearly did one night .

I have used the dislike function twice since it appeared .and the like.shotloads,like.

187 dislikes isn't really that bad for one post.

In reply to douwe:


Not sure I think that's valid for all posts; in part because - in my opinion, yours may differ - the like/dislike buttons lack any real weight as their use is so often trivial.

What you do about this, so that like/dislike carries some meaninhg, I don't know. My first thought would be to remove it for some forums; and I'm still of the (minority, it seems) opinion that there should be some record of clicking like/dislike even if it shows up just as a percentage figure on a profile.

T.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Perhaps if it's aim is to help with moderating, the buttons could stay but not light up, so that the message still gets through to them if somebody is being out of order, without the scope for some people being 'dislike stalked' by petty people?

In reply to douwe:



The best response to bad advice is 'Bollocks' (keeping it short that is)

In reply to Offwidth:

Recently I remember there was a question about elbow problems and someone suggested stopping climbing for a few months instead of active rehab. Examples of rehab were given further in the thread, so I just disliked the 'stop climbing and wait for it to heal' post and left it at that. I thought the dislikes for that advice were quite right and helpful.

I can imagine always getting disliked for less factual posts or posts containing an opinion could be annoying, yes. Maybe getting rid of the anonymous dislike could be good. Though I don't know how that would work out practically.

In reply to marsbar:

Sadly my paranoia has progressed to my temporary pseudo, which to me proves that somebody is singling me out for their own petty reasons. Some would call this harassment and I would be one of them.

Yes it's only two or three individuals but they are relentless in their devotion to stalking me over the last few months.

BTW how is parenthood these days?

In reply to Temp Lemming:

My experience of climbers are that they just rip the piss out of each other half the time.
Now now that you've highlighted this dislike thing, loads of them are doing it for the childish/piss taking/silliness/ humour of it.


Get over it, unless you're on skunk .....

In reply to Lusk:



Yep, I painted a big target on my back and so far have 190'ish fans.

Of course I can tell the difference from a bit of banter on the forums and the odd saddo who needs to get out more.

In reply to Temp Lemming:

>


2 or 3 individuals can do 190 dislikes?

(And this is not a pop at you BTW)

So for The Lemming, who tells us that he uses these forums as a substitute for a social life, the 'dislike' button is a means of stalking or bullying. For Wintertree, who expresses opinions perhaps almost like a kind of unpaid journalist, dislikes are a 'badge of honour' that tell him that he has touched a nerve. For people who use this site to exchange factual information or advice on climbing, the dislike button is an anonymous way of calling information into question without having to justify that questioning. For the people running this website who are looking to it as a source of customer insight, this simple binary variable that means different things to different people can only be a source of misinformation. And for baffled punters, struggling to get to grips with the absurdities of the online world, the dislike button appears to provide a focus for their frustration.

If Franz Kafka were alive today, perhaps he would write a short story about it. As he's no longer with us, maybe this thread will do instead.

In reply to Andy Morley:


Maybe one day Mr Lemming will wake up as a beetle on his back and won't be able to type messages on the internet, that should be the end of this particular problem

In reply to Lusk:




Lemming, you've read this ^^ once, now read it again... This is exactly why you're getting dislikes. No matter what you write from this point in, you will get a dislike (not from me I hasten to add, as it's no longer even mildly amusing...) because you've made it pathetically clear that it upsets you! I don't want to sound harsh, but pull your knickers up and stop crying!

In reply to douwe:
Can you link that? Just did a forum search on "elbow" and "injury" with tons of good advice getting no likes. Some superb advice getting one or two. Good advice geting dislikes but no bad advice getting loads of dislikes ...... seems to prove my point that dislikes are a confused low information response and likes don't correlate well with the posts that deserve it most (as a climbing site... the big like counts tend to be on non climbing threads).

The best solution for good and bad threads is to just say that. Dislikes risk confusion (and just look through these search results they never amount to a consitent clear message).

In reply to ScottTalbot:
I take the piss out of mates in general banter but not people I dont know when a big gang is doing it. Banter is between friends, mass dislikes for Lemming when he doesn't enjoy it is playground bullying.

Is the view of UKC really that childish: that someone getting the dislike trail Lemming collected before this thread, who expresses concerns about it publicly, now gets regarded as pathetic??

In reply to The Lemming:

I think telling people you are hurt and offended by the dislike button is like informing the school bully that you piss yourself whenever someone tickles you. It's pointing out an open goal.

If the dislike function is the biggest problem in your life, then you must have a bloody sweet life. I envy you.

But I don't dislike you...

In reply to Offwidth:


That's what I would expect. On a thread about politics or music people I'll use Like and very occasionally Dislike for voting up or down a particular view without much thought. It's not important and everyone has an opinion so there are lots of votes. On the other hand if someone is giving serious advice about elbow injuries and I don't have any relevant expertise or experience I won't click either Like or Dislike.

I don't think it is a weakness that Like and Dislike get used in different ways on different threads it makes them more useful.

In reply to Offwidth:

http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=632212
First elbow thread I found in the training forum, not entirely sure if this is the one I was referring to, but likes and dislikes seem to work out fine I think.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Usefulness requires information. Where is this information as I see almost none (outside threads such as this)... give me concrete examples so that I and others can understand, rather than just keep saying it does this.

In reply to douwe:

I saw that thread. All likes and dislikes are low numbers on a very improtant topic for climbers. The correlation in terms of usefulness is far from as good as it should be. The disliked thread seems to be based on misreading what the poster said (or disliking their tone).

In reply to Temp Lemming:

Its bullying and its childish and cowardly. But its not going to change so you have have to ignore it.

Banter isn't anonymous generally.

Anyway the joys of step parenting a teenager! Its ok at the moment, mock exams caused a series of mini meltdowns but calm has returned. I find it difficult to understand, I never cared that much about the real ones, but its good that she does. I keep reminding myself that teenage behaviour is just normal for teenagers and I think its going ok. Thanks for asking.

In reply to Offwidth:

??
So it works but not well enough in your opinion?
The thread that gets the most dislikes clearly states sh*t advice in my opinion; 'I had a nasty case of climber's elbow. Seems fine now. Rest, rest and more rest'.
Anyway it works well enough for me to separate the wheat from the chaff. Lucky me.

In reply to The Lemming:

I can't for the life of me understand why this bothers you.

Surely acceptance of the fact you are going to get some "Dislikes" is better than pissing and moaning about a few f*ckwits.

I expect to get a number of dislikes, and it's no more than people telling me they have a different opinion to mine.

I know were all different, but if the nasty people won't play nice, maybe you should stay inside and keep away from them.

In reply to douwe:
No I don't think it works. The number of comments in statistical terms is too low to judge anything much. If you rank quality of thread the one with dislikes is one of the best (IMHO) so in my view the list correlation isnt even great. If you score for quality, as well as rank, the correlation looks to get worse (as most replies with no likes were helpful ... as much as some getting votes). This is on one of the better climbing related threads I saw in terms of evidence to support your case. Seems to me people just think its working, as they like to think they are contributing something. This sort of thing (seeing correlations we want in data that doesn't justify it) is nothing new.
.
"Perhaps a quick search of the forums would tell you? :P Get an armaid, theraband flexbar, light dumbbell set, and a copy of Dave Macleods book on injury. Your welcome!" ... just 3 dislikes (no likes) was the main thread I was, referring to. The "rest rest rest" thread seems to me to be a real solution .... albeit not the most effcient in speed of recovery (a cold hard truth)

In reply to krikoman:
As opposed to making outside more pleasant; that looks to me a poor option. What do we actually lose if we dump dislikes? (or at least take action and warn consistent dislike stalkers and ban those who continue regardless). Its best to deal with childish bullies, not to do nothing and tell those suffering their attention to toughen up.

In reply to The Lemming:

This is a non-issue at worst.

Lemming - I tend to think your posts are sensible. Ignore the 'dislikers'. Taking stuff on the internet too seriously can be extremely damaging to your well being and perspective!

In reply to The Lemming: As someone who has collected the occasional 'dislike' I view them as a badge of honour. If I've pissed people off it's their problem, they can deal with it. Man up and take it on the chin.

Andy F

In reply to Offwidth:



I think it might be the depersonalising nature of the internet as much as anything?

In reply to Timmd:
That and the Lemming's posting style looking to the casual observer exactly like a serial troll, ie:

Start new thread with topical, ideally devisive, title.
Open thread with vacuous observation or question, "discuss".
Seldom bother to respond to any posts in that thread.
Start new thread on different topic.
Repeat.
Repeat.
Repeat.
Repeat...

In reply to deepsoup:
Who knows? I don't suppose it's worth getting annoyed about *, whatever the truth.

*I'm not saying you do etc...

In reply to deepsoup:


To the casual observer.

However I've been on this site since 2002. Not so causal.

In reply to deepsoup:
It's not like he does any harm, it's threads in down the pub which vanish which people don't have to read if they don't want to.

It's only an internet forum.

In reply to Timmd:

It's not like he does any harm, it's threads in down the pub which vanish which people don't have to read if they don't want to.

Swings and roundabouts though isn't it.
The Lemming has quite gleefully admitted that he is a bit of a Troll when it comes to the threads he has initiated.
So, bearing that in mind, why shouldn't other UKC'ers play him at his own game and Dislike his threads?

In reply to FactorXXX:
I guess if somebody wants to find a reason for disliking somebody's posts and threads they're going to, if it's that they sometimes troll or some other reason, but if it's bothering anybody that seems like a pretty good reason to stop.

In reply to FactorXXX:

It's not really playing him at any game though, he posts threads on stuff he doesn't know that much about and is interested in to try and start a discussion. Most people don't start threads at all. Seems a bit mean to dislike him for that.

Don't be put off Lemming.

In reply to thomasadixon:

It's not really playing him at any game though, he posts threads on stuff he doesn't know that much about and is interested in to try and start a discussion.

If that was true, then I would agree with you 100%. However, as he has admitted himself, a lot of his threads are started because he is deliberately trolling.
I haven't Disliked any of his posts (or any other persons), but it's not hard to see why some would Dislike some of his posts for that reason.

In reply to FactorXXX:

So in summary

Seemingly no one can show any consistent examples on how likes and dislikes match post quality, despite all the protestations that this IS the case. Even a single good example (that you would expect from random) seems to be tricky to track down.

Several folk feel Lemming is a fair bullying target because he starts discussions with some nebulous percieved ill intent.

The mob want to keep their comfort buttons irrespective of evidence that they appear to be pretty meaningless except in terms of the alledged mass irony of disliking posts that ask for the dislike button to go.

In reply to Offwidth:



You wouldn't expect that - they aren't a quality rating. It's clear that posts having widespread support or agreement get lots of likes and those where people dislike what is being said get lots of dislikes. This gives a feel for where the weight of opinion is, so in that sense they serve a purpose.

In reply to thomasadixon:


That is exactly what I do.

Over the years I have discovered so much by asking about stuff which I knew nothing about. What's the point of asking a question if you already know the answer?

In reply to FactorXXX:



No, I disagree. I ask questions as I like interesting discussions about things which I don't know about. This does not mean that I am Trolling though.

And when I am feeling mischievous then I stick to obvious non climbing subjects which can be spotted a mile away, and even then the discussion can turn quite interesting where I learn something new.

In reply to MG:

Give us clear and consistent examples on climbing threads then. Everyone supporting the buttons says this, so it cant be that hard.

In reply to Offwidth:

You can do this yourself quite easily - which is the whole point of the buttons! The first post here clearly has a lot of support, for example
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=632655

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm fairly agnostic to them, but there's plenty of examples on here where people clearly have used it to agree/disagree with a position: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=617833

In reply to Temp Lemming:

It seems its a depressingly common view on UKC that someone regularly having fun or freindly mischeif means they are regarded as fair game for a few sad morons to make a bullying dislike response to everything they post.

In reply to Temp Lemming:



It's hard to differentiate the two, because for the former you don't seem to bother with any basic research. You seem to favour this childlike posting style, and tend not to engage with people who sincerely respond. The fact that sometimes you do post in a normal adult style (mostly techie threads) may lead others to think you are being insincere.

In reply to Offwidth:

I completely agree. The sad thing for me is that those few and persistent dislikes at the outset of some of my topics have killed them stone dead.

In reply to JR:

So explain where the dislikes came from on the OP. I watched the thread grow they were retrospective mob mentality not a response to what Mitch said in the original post. Its also about as controversial as climbing threads get yet only manages responses in the 30s. The likes do seem to work better than on most threads I've seen (albeit plenty of good points are made that are 'likeless') but my main concern was always the utility of dislike buttons on UKC. Consistent clear evidence or the best of a bad bunch?

In reply to Temp Lemming:

I doubt that. Threads with good potential and no dislikes regularly die young.

In reply to MG:

Not a climbing thread as such and the dislikes show no clear pattern and number 2 at most.

In reply to Temp Lemming:


>

I have done a lot of this in the past, and not quite so much now. It is quite dispiriting how people do not even like you asking a question. Possibly they do not like a challenge to their world view, or possibly they do not realise that they do not have to read nor reply to postings.

In reply to Offwidth:


The Lemming's approach to this was to "go a pick on someone else" !!! see what I mean about growing up a bit, victim bait is another word I might use.

In reply to krikoman:
Being childish (a subjective issue if we have fun) and encouraging bullies are different levels of problem for the site. I'm sure some people think many of my posts and yours are childish. Are you victim bait? 28 dislikes from the JR linked thread (impressively beating Mitch given the subject):

"Pegs and mats what the f*ck is wrong with you? The reason your route don't get much traffic is because people are voting with their feet. Who wants to climb something that's been crated by a f*ckwit. You seem to be wanting some sort of adulation for your good work and now you're not getting it, you think everyone else is in the wrong."

In reply to Mike Stretford:


I just gave this a "like", which is exactly why some people might be disliking The Lemmings threads out of spite (not me I hasten to add, though I do use both like and dislike to agree or disagree with what's been written).

On more than one occasion The Lemming with write something like, "my blah blah blah isn't working does anyone know how I can make it better?". I've given suggestions and asked questions about what he's actually trying to do, in the vein, "What version of blah blah have you got? If you try Blah what happens?

I spent quite a lot of time offering suggestions and asking further questions to aid me in helping him, all of which because I got no reply was a waste of MY time. My be he doesn't like me and chooses to ignore what's been written, but I notice the same pattern repeated many times with lots of people, so quickly decided it wasn't me.

I quickly learnt my lesson and didn't bother, leaving the issue for others to deal with, often noticing they suffered the same treatment I had.

I concluded from this that The Lemming wasn't really interested in solutions or answers to his posts, but that he just like posting, lots!!

I'm sure he's a very nice chap but type on a forum is very different from face to face conversation.

In reply to Offwidth:
You don't think 25 likes to zero dislikes says anything at all about general opinion of the OP? Fine, we disagree. You are clearly going to object about every example you are given.

In reply to Offwidth:

No because I choose not to be, a couple of people Disliking what I've written isn't really going to bother me much, in the scheme of things.


And while my comment above might not have been very polite, I wasn't the only one who seemed to think Mitch was looking more for adulation than for praise for information on putting up a new route. The whole tone of that thread was about Mitch and not about climbing (but let's not do that one again as I pretty sure it's been resolved)

My comment was quit a long way down well done on the detective work
I tend to work on percentages anyway so for my particular comment 11 to 28 roughly 2/3 of the people didn't like what I'd posted.
For Mitch though 4-28 not quite so good at 1/7.
Meanwhile Colin comment above mine 33 to 0, 100% liked

Which pretty much sums up the whole thread, or at least people opinion for that thread.

I suppose it might boil down to how you use UKC, it's a distraction for me, something I do when I should be doing something else (work for instance!!). I see it as a bit of fun, with people who I might meet down the pub; I type as I would speak, obviously the tone is missing from the text.

In reply to krikoman:


When I ask a technical-ish question, I try my best to thank everybody who takes the time to respond. However in your situation this does not appear to be the case and I apologise for this. To be honest, I actually enjoy reading your posts on mine and other people's topics as I find them interesting and informative.

Its very hard to communicate in a text only environment where we can't rely on the subtleties of body language, tone of voice or even facial expressions. All we have is our own personalities and the text burned onto our screens. This obviously creates confusion and barriers and if you throw in a dose of varying academic abilities along with a Like/Dislike button then the confusion and resentment can quickly foster and fester.

In reply to MG:
You are answering your concerns not mine. My beef on these threads (and request for information on any evidence showing the benefits of dislikes on climbing threads) is because I think use of dislikes is damaging the site (a climbing site) with degrees of negativity that at times looks very much like bullying; with no visible gains that I can see. I think the benefit of likes are overstated but they really amount to mostly harmless fun.

In reply to Temp Lemming:


I agree, best advice I can give is take no notice.

In reply to The Lemming:

For anyone who cares, and happens to use Google Chrome, I just whipped up a tiny extension to hide the buttons and the likes/dislike statistics.

The code is open source at the following address:
https://github.com/alansaul/UKC-Extensions

Just click "Download Zip", unzip it, navigate to "chrome://extensions/" in your browser, enable "developer mode" and then drag and drop the remove_likes.crx file into the page and it should ask if you if you want to install it.

Either that, or just cover the like/dislike buttons with your index finger whilst you peruse UKC.

FFS people - yes, the dislike button is a pretty crap feature. But you are pretty naive if you don't realise that in life, there are other people who will not like you, even when it's for no good reason. Expose yourself to the Internet and a whole load of random people are going to dislike you a whole load more, and that's just life. It ain't fair - get used to it!

For that reason, if none other, the dislike button is a useful reminder of reality for the more naive souls amongst you.

In reply to Andy Morley:

This isn't the internet its UKC. If its a crap feature that harms some and does no visible good, pressure the site to get rid of it. All this 'man up' stuff and welcome to 'reality' is pathetic machismo. Life deals enough problems without a favorite web forum adding to them.

In reply to Offwidth:

... That said, he really needs to get a grip.

In reply to The Lemming:

Removing the buttons won't really help you now. If you've convinced yourself that there really is a "small yet dedicated band of people hitting the Dislike button" on your posts then removing the button doesn't remove those people, they still won't like your posts and surely you can't now pretend they don't exist like some childish game of peekaboo?

In reply to Offwidth:

Nonsense. Lots of forums have upvotes and downvotes, 'karma', that kind of thing. The also have different cultures of posting - some are much more friendly than UKC, others even more belligerent and argumentative. It strikes me that many of your own posts here would be clearly unacceptable on the more touchy feely ones, horses, courses etc.

If you want rid, it isn't "the site" you need to pressure, it would be Alan. He's made it clear above that he's happy enough to keep them, for now at least ( http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=632503&v=1#x8213030 ), and I rather think he's right. Having been a tad sceptical when the likes and dislikes were introduced, I've come to rather like them now and I'd miss them if they went.

Reaver2k has been kind enough to offer a solution to Google Chrome users who don't want to see them above. If the Lemming, thick skinned attention seeking little rodent that he seems to be, is genuinely upset by them there is a clear solution for him there. Maybe someone else tech-savvy might find the time to do similar for Firefox.

In reply to deepsoup:

Perhaps it would cheer everyone up if the buttons were a simple ^ and V
It's the whole verbalising of 'I don't like you', combined with the implied death threat of the Roman Emperor's thumb down gesture. Heck there's more to this than I thought.

In reply to deepsoup:


New Topic - I'm having trouble installing Google Chrome can anyone help?

Cue - numerous dislikes.

In reply to krikoman:

Not me I'm afraid, I'm a tech numpty.
I'm sure somebody can, but I suspect you're going to have to be a bit more specific.

In reply to deepsoup:



I was joking, the post was on behalf of Mr. Lemming, who is often keen on a techy post, so he gets two bites of the cherry.

In reply to krikoman:
Dur! Of course you were joking. I'm not a tech numpty, I'm just a numpty!

In reply to deepsoup:
My proposed position was for those who don't like dislike buttons. Doing nothing (manning up, or whatever) if that is your view, is IMHO lazy and possibly stupid. I'm more than happy that Alan will review matters sensibly over time and also that if those of who don't like dislikes cannot get our arguments over with evidence he may well stick with them. I acknowledge I can be forceful at times... that is a UKC tradition... as long as its not nasty or otherwise against site rules; I don't want to take part in a cotton wool forum but expect posters to stand by what they say.

If you read my posts, karma (as used on't'other channel) solves all my real issues: its attributable to the user, with reasons required and with tit for tat explicitly against the rules. They said Facebook would use dislikes as most users supposedly wanted them and yet Facebook saw sense after they looked at the evidence elsewhere.

Reeves solution is for ostriches, not intelligent people with an issue to solve.

In reply to Offwidth:


Unfortunately, it will probably take copious amounts of therapy to solve this particular issue, so Reavers approach is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

In reply to Offwidth:

I too want this.

And over the years I have tried to stand by what I've posted. I've even accepted and owned up to the stupid and indefensible posts made while drunk on a Friday night. Through it all I kept the same pseudo, took what ever on the chin, apologised, shouted at, agreed or disagreed through conversation.

The overall length of this discussion has shown a bewildering variety of perceived purposes for those two little innocuous buttons at the bottom of the page.

In reply to ScottTalbot:

Not enjoying bullying is a normal human response, and calling it what it is and standing up to it is the correct adult approach. In Lemmings case It seems to be a handful of people and not especially extreme but it's real and needs dealing with.

In reply to The Lemming:

Get rid of buttons? No, no ...add more:
* Bovvered
* Numpty
* Man Up
* Punter
* Troll
* Willy Waver
* Stalker
* Wot you done on grit?
From here I can see the dawn of a new convenience culture age of UKC bullying.

In reply to The Ivanator:

You forgot * victim bait, *asking for it ... etc

In reply to deepsoup:


See!!! that's the trouble with text

In reply to ScottTalbot:


Or indeed a click with an angry mouse.

In reply to Offwidth:


Agreed!

I do think however, that Lemming and your good self, and probably a few others, are perceiving bullying where there is none. You are CHOOSING to read more into the dislike button than is there, in my humble (or not) opinion.

I disliked your post btw. Nothing personal, I just don't agree with your point.

In reply to Offwidth:


You are right, he must have some persistent dislike stalkers, there's innocuous posts that get double digit dislikes. However, that doesn't mean his own indulgences don't also prompt dislikes.

I have disliked some of his posts, a handful, were I would respond to other people. That's because experience has taught me he will not engage.

I wouldn't have thought an algorithm to pick out dislike stalkers would be too hard to put together.

In reply to ScottTalbot:


Wouldn't the solution be to simply change the buttons to 'agree' & 'disagree'? Then there's much chance of inferring hostility.

(apologies if this has already been suggested - 250 posts is too much to get through on my tea break).

In reply to Offwidth:


But what about the busy people who don't really have time to type something, yet want to register their disagreement with what's been written?

It's alright for those who have lots of time to spend on here, telling others the should write a response rather than press the button.

Also, what if I've nothing else to say that hasn't already been said, in that case you get a thread full of "What he said" or a load of repeated comments, with "bravo" or "well said" added to the end.

I'm all for making the voters visible, but then you run the rise of the, "why did you dislike what I said?" taking over.

Isn't is easier to accept there some people who are never going to like what you say? I know I do and have to and I'm pretty certain I know who votes my comments down when they do it, but so what? I don't come on here to be liked, I come here to spout shite and have a little fun, and sometime to help, and sometimes to ask for help.

If the dislike was renamed disagree this might be a better option.

In reply to The Lemming:

I don't think changing the names of the buttons does anything. They would still be used in exactly the same way. It's people's personal perception of the buttons that needs to change, and only they can do that themselves.

In reply to Temp Lemming:


You're missing the point Lemming. There's a lot of people who would probably agree with you on that. But UKC is only a small-scale operation, I would have thought. Multi-nationals and large corporations like credit-card providers have whole departments and huge budgets for customer insight. If UKC has even heard of the term, it probably doesn't even have a budget, it probably gets done on the back of something else and so a like/ dislike button is realistically the best they're going to be able to do, crap though it is.

But the point you are missing is that the reality behind the dislikes won't go away if someone removes the button, though it will change how it presents slightly. Several people have told you that but you still don't seem to be getting it. Fixate on something else - this really isn't worth it.

In reply to krikoman:

>

How about 'agree' and 'disagree'?

These are a little less ambiguous than like or dislike.

You will never really be sure what is either being agreed or disagreed with however it could be more conductive to a discussion?

In reply to Temp Lemming:

There we go! Problem solved.

We'll all now call them agree/disagree buttons, understand they are responses to an individual post, not a poster, and there is no cause for any offence to be taken.

Now let's move on...

In reply to ScottTalbot:


But dislike and disagree do mean different things, and would affect people's reactions to the responses of others