UKH

Not the nicest of subjects, but there was an awful event outside my grand daughters school a week or two ago.  Young mum on her way to school with her 8 year old daughter collapses.  Ambulances arrive, CPR performed and the lady was taken away but sadly passed away in hospital.  Pulmonary embolism / aneurysm apparently (not 100% sure which).

My daughter was passing with 4 year old grand daughter in tow when it happened and stayed with the lady's daughter until her dad arrived.  Awful situation.

It seems to have disturbed my grand daughter a lot and we're noticing it surfacing now.  She's very intelligent for her age but obviously the only familiarity with the concept of death is Mufasa dying in the Lion King.  The event was being discussed by everyone around at the time so she clearly heard more that she should have, and there are flowers now where it happened and she's asking questions when she sees them.  We're wondering now if she's starting to entertain the idea of that young girl losing her mummy...and that she is a young girl with a mummy and that it could happen to her too.  She's got massively clingy with her mum now, especially at bed times...lots of bad dreams about mummy being taken away by a monster, and other dreams which she won't talk about

She won't actually discuss the event, or the flowers, or anything about it with anyone else except her mum.  Not even with her dad.  I think there's maybe an element of that magical thinking entering her head where "If I talk about this, it might actually make it happen" whilst at the same time actually wanting / needing to talk about it.

It's horrible.  Horrible for the little girl affected by it (in a twisted way I wish she was a lot younger so that she wouldn't actually remember it - instead of it being a memory that she's going to be stuck with for the rest of her life) and also for my grand daughter who is so happy go lucky and is now having to deal with these horrible thoughts in a four year old brain.

 I don't know what to suggest to my daughter but she's struggling.  She's speaking to the teachers at school and they're keeping an extra close eye on her, but haven't been able to give any real advice.  We don't know whether to just sit back and say nothing but be extra vigilant so that when she does look like she want's to talk about it , and then answer everything as openly and honestly as possible...or actually try and sit her down and start the conversation with her, or at least prompt her in the direction of talking about it. 

A heartbreaking situation.  I'm close to my mum and I remember when I was a kid thinking that it would be the most horrible thing to lose her.  Literally the worst thing in the entire world to ever happen.  

I wondered if anyone has any advice to offer because I'm lost.  I'm going to go over after work and pick her up from school and give her a cuddle and stuff her full of Freddos and Babybels (her current favourites)

Is there a bereavement charity / organisation that can help? My Nan died recently but we've not told my kids yet. They weren't close, but there will still be questions. At least it was old age (100).

That could be a way forward.  Thank you, and I'm sorry for your loss. 

I was 'lucky' enough not to experience the death of a loved one until I was about 17 years old (my own Granda) and although it absolutely gutted me, it was a tiny bit of comfort to feel that it was end of a long and full life (but still the saddest thing I'd ever experienced)

Good luck with your own little ones.  I hope it goes ok.

4 is a tough age, that’s around the time they become aware of death and that people die.

So she may not have fully comprehended what happened. 

I’d be tempted with the just wait approach.

good luck. I’m not sure there will be a one size fits all because 4 year olds differ so much developmentally. My 5 year old would react very different to how she would when she was 4, she’s just now much more aware of what death is.

Awful situation. Mrs D is an Educational psychologist, with a specialty in bereavement working a lot in pre and primary schools.  She uses therapeutic stories a lot which are designed to help in age appropriate ways in these situations. Ask the school if your daughter can access the school ed psych, they should have resources to help.  I'll ask her when i get home what her advice would be.

Obviously I'm biased a bit, but I think she is massively clever for her age.  Very articulate, an amazing imagination and we all engage her and interact with her at every available opportunity (as well as giving her the opportunity to just crash and relax when she wants to)  I think maybe that intelligent bit of her brain is juggling with something that her emotional brain is too young to deal with.

I have no personal experience, but my sister-in-law runs Project Eileen, which is a charity that helps young people and schools tackle the subject of death & grief in schools. It's professional, well-supported and growing. 

This is likely to be affecting many pupils and I'd encourage the school to approach them :

https://www.projecteileen.co.uk/

In our primary school there is a school counsellor available for the children, should they want it. This can be arranged by the children themselves through their teacher or via a phonecall from the parent / carer. I understood that the same was available in most primary schools?

I should also say that they are often used and the feedback is excellent. A friend's son witnessed CPR (resulting in a death) and was helped by talking to the trained counsellor about it.

TC - I won't offer any direct advice but I'm heartened at what you've written and the approach too are taking to help.  I have faith that it will be beneficial.

Meantime, please keep half an eye on your welfare as perhaps this is chipping away at you more than you think, and keep half an eye on the reception your update in May received.  

That's such a terrible situation. I can only suggest seeking advice from proper professionals.

There are books out there that can help children understand and deal with the death of a loved one (story books which introduce the idea of death, grief, and how to cope with it). I'm not sure how effective they are, and my experience of them is of those which deal with death as an event which can be planned for (i.e. death following a terminal illness). It sounds like what your granddaughter experienced will have been traumatic in quite a shocking and acute way, and this might warrant an entirely different approach to dealing with the death of, say, an elderly relative.

I'll bring up the counsellor idea with daughter this afternoon.  I think in our day it was pretty much unheard to have counsellors in school (very much a 'shut up and deal with it' approach in my own school) but I know she had pastoral care officers available in her comprehensive school...it would be nice to think there is someone available but from her initial conversation this morning, I don't think there is.  I think reaching out to one of the charities and services mentioned higher up would be an ideal start.

Yeah, I'm dwelling on it a bit I admit, but big and ugly enough to deal with, and settling the girls down and helping through it will be enough to sort me out.  And I won't resort to alcohol to get through it

An 8 year old who was in my lads school and shared classed with them, was run over an killed not so long ago. We spoke to them about it, but they didnt really know what to say or how to talk about it. The school were very supportive.

The other kids in your granddaughters school will be talking about it and affected. The school will probably be doing things already. I'm not sure of the value of a counsellor for 4 year olds. Things like collective assemblies, doing drawings, a book of remembrance, planting a tree and having the school spend time at an age appropriate level, will help.

Perhaps find out what the school are doing and use that as a way to start a discussion. 'Are the school planting a tree? What sort of tree should they plant?"

My father had a heart attack in front of me when i was a child.  He died later in hospital.

I think some adults try to 'shelter' children from these sort of facts of life.  I can't speak for someone else and certainly not a 4 year old - I was a few years older.  Dad's death was never really discussed but I can remember mum telling me something along the lines of; "he'd would never be like the dad you knew if he'd lived, he'd be just a disabled body unable to talk had he lived".  Of course  I didn't care - I just wanted my dad back.  I guess I knew what she meant but when I did want to discuss something  it was hushed up or avoided (as far as I can recal).  

Not being able to talk about factually and honestly at the time has come back and hit me a few times as an adult.  Just be nice, supportive and listen - I'm not sure there's any advice you can give.

PS We ended up moving away from our little village and  I remember my grandfather burning some of my dad's stuff.  That hurt too - but I guess that doesn't apply here.

Good luck., 

Poor little soul - a big thing to cope with, and it's so difficult to talk about.

My daughter was 2 and a half when her baby brother died at three days old. We talked about it a lot, for a long time. (I appreciate that 2 and a half is very different to 4 and probably a lot easier.) She's now 25 and very emotionally aware and sympathetic - I am sure that although she doesn't now have direct memories of the event it has shaped her (as these things shape all of us). Your little lass may draw strength and awareness and sensitivity from this experience. Death is shitty, but it teaches us about love.

Well I buggered off work at 2pm and drove over there, and met her coming out of school with her mum.  Quick tea together, bit of play and then we nipped out to play on her scooter while her little sister was being put down to sleep. (this was strictly breaking the rules because it was officially her after her 'start to wind down and get ready for bath time...but we broke those rules).

It was nice little mooch around the quiet streets and we happened to look at some neighbours plants and she pointed out one little one that was brown and withered and explained without thinking that it was dead or dying...then thought 'argh....is that going to prompt a bit of a memory of the whole death thing...', but it didn't seem to.  She asked 'why' (she's currently in a big 'why' stage at the moment too).  So I talked about how some plants will get big and strong and those dead ones will just fall over and just go back into the ground.  Then we moved seamlessly onto drains, tarmac, concrete, cement, mini-diggers...(the estate is brand new and is still a little bit under construction...she's definitely going to be a civil engineer)

Then a carry back home on my shoulders, with her slumped on my head protesting she really wasn't tired at all.  Apparently she was bathed and asleep 15 minutes after I left.

We'll all keep an eye on her.  Thanks everyone

At my grandads funeral a friend of the family brought along their son. I can't remember the age, but clearly remember my granny saying to the vicar that funerals weren't a place for children. the vicar disagreed and said that whilst for most children their first funeral was if a grandparent, actually experiencing the ceremony of someone they are not close to prepares then and makes the experience easier come the sad time that they do loose a loved one. (I was 18 when I attended my first funeral after the death of my first grandparent and was utterly devastated and terrified about the funeral, so do agree with the vicar on that one)

I guess what I'm saying is that terrible though the experience will have been for your granddaughter, this will prepare your granddaughter with skills for dealing with situations in later life. Even just simple things like knowing how and when to dial 999, or the importance of identifying a "trusted stranger" like that poor 8 yr old did by staying with your daughter whilst waiting for her Dad are important life skills.

Other than that I can only echo others in saying that getting professional advice to help your granddaughter (and maybe also your daughter, who must be equally shaken by be the experience) understand what she saw and rationalise things in her mind is probably well worth it. Also better to get help now whilst its still fresh.

Well this afternoon went so nicely (and also so manically because I basically trashed the house with lego and dolls house furniture, and food in the kitchen) that we didn't actually discuss it that much to be honest.  I just wanted it to be a nice distraction for her.

But we're doing some Whatsapp stuff now.  Despite it being all about my grandaughter, I'm very conscious of my daughter being affected as well.  I know she's putting on a brave face...she spent a good few years working as an in-house carer for young children with serious medical problems who were sometimes basically near the end of their lives, getting very attached to them and then having to watch them pass away.  I think she thinks that makes her a bit stronger, but we're all only human and whatever the professional detachment may be, you can't help being affected can you.

With reference to teachers at school offering support, They are limited due to work load. ( they aren't counselors this is your responsibility and should be referred to your GP or mental health services.

There was never any question of teachers being counsellors. Any reference to counsellors was specifically about actually professional counsellors maybe being available at the school. My daughter approached a teacher , told her of the situation and asked for advice.

Neither is there any question of shirking responsibility. We know this is completely  our responsibilty which is why we are asking as many questions as possible and exploring all avenues which may be open to us. 

You sound like a great grandad and dad. I think doing fun and normal things with people you love and trust is as much part of getting over trauma as sitting down and trying to discuss it. Brains need time to process things and get over shock but while that's happening distraction from consciously thinking about things is really helpful. Obviously it's different for a small child than it is for an adult but carrying on as normal must help her to feel safe and secure. I'm sure you'll know when or if she wants to talk to you about it. Look after yourself and your family.

I think it’s worth mentioning to her teacher.

I often got told things by parents, especially of kids in my advisory or players I coach so I can keep an eye on them or just things to consider as we talk about key issues. Even if the student doesn’t want to see the counselor we loop them in and our dean of students so they are aware of potential issues.

Teachers will have probably dealt with similar before too.

Many years ago a good friend lost his wife to a brain tumour and they had 2 young children. He contacted 

https://www.winstonswish.org/

They were most helpful and the children are in their 20's now and doing very well.

Chris

Seconded. 

We went briefly with our 4 year old when his 20 month sister died. TBH - just knowing that such organisations even exist was hugely helpful. You might not go, but just knowing you could if needed provides a lot of support. There are others (Cruse, onceuponasmile etc) so may depend on what is in your area. 

In my experience, talking openly about death and somebody who has died is really important. And in words that a 4 year old will understand. There are so many euphemisms for death (someone who has passed away, or gone, or left us could surely come back couldn't they??) so use clear words like dead that can't be misunderstood. We were warned to avoid terms like "gone away/left us/sleeping/resting etc" as that is something that people do all the time and a 4 year old won't necessarily be able to differentiate between the two. Saying a dead person is sleeping can be particularly dificult as children can then become scared of going to sleep.  It sounds brutal to hear small children say "my sister is dead" but it helps keep things very clear for them. Being able to articulate complicated things, like how somebody died, in words appropriate for a 4 year old is also difficult. We were maybe lucky that we had sufficient medical knowledge to be able to explain what happened in a way our son could understand. That may be where the charities could help?

A lot of people shy away from talking about death and dead people for fear of not wanting to upset anybody. Obviously don't force the subject, but if she brings it up, then I would embrace that and talk about it. Everybody else talking about it freely will also encourage her to bring it up when she wants to. If she thinks it is something that can't be spoken about, then it won't get spoken about. 

I am now a firm believer that death is our last and biggest taboo as a society - it is never talked about. It sounds like you are already doing everything you can and just being there will be a great help. 

Kindest thoughts.

Chris

My niece was affected by the loss of my Mum, I can't remember how old she was at the time, but on walks after she passed away, she would be wanting to know where her younger sister was a lot, and later when on a school trip, she got distressed about being too far away from home, which suggests that her grandma passing away affected her sense of stability and security, but within time the continuing sense of security of her immediate family seemed to allow her to regain a sense of security, and she's been fine since then. With my niece and Mum in mind, I think it was a case of them being close, and my niece being too young to quite appreciate what had happened meant that it had the effect it did.

I'm not a child psychologist, but my sense of children is that a a lot of family warmth and security would do a lot towards your granddaughter feeling better again, and becoming more settled again, that it's that, more so than the intellectual and philosophical issues of death, and death when related to in an adult-like emotional way.  

My younger brother and myself weren't allowed to go to our own father's funeral.  My mother and grandparents thought it would 'upset us'.  What a laugh!!  I spent many years being angry over not being able to say good bye.  

Just typing this brings tears to my eyes even though that happened 60 years ago!

 

My younger brother and myself weren't allowed to go toown own father's funeral.  My mother and grandparents thought it would 'upset us'.  What a laugh!!  I spent many years being angry over not being able to say good bye.  

Just typing this brings tears to my eyes even though this happened 60 years ago. 

 

My deepest sympathies Chris.  Even as an adult I can't even begin to comprehend the pain of that kind of loss.  

I understand entirely what you're saying.  In my own side of the family death is the ultimate taboo and there's almost a superstitious dread of even talking about.  When I started talking to my Mam about my life insurance she almost crossed herself and made the evil eye (no, really).  Frequently have conversations with the missus about planning for the future, cheapest funeral options, donating bodies to medical science, stuffing money away in accounts for the grandkids but if my Mam is around she'll really get jumpy and anxious and try all ways to change the subject.  It doesn't bother me at all to contemplate the idea of it and plan for it so that my loved ones are catered for.

I don't know if my daughter has used phrases like 'gone to sleep' to be honest.  It's possible.  It's interesting to think that that's what could be affecting my grand daughter at bedtimes though.  We're staying over tomorrow night, it'll be a chance to have a better talk with her once the nippers have gone to bed.  Not being religious in anyway I'm pretty sure she'd have totally avoided anything along the lines of "in heaven" or "with the angels" or anything like that, despite the temptation to offer the most 'reassuring' and easiest way's of explaining it.

Thanks again for your thoughts.  Really appreciated.

All the best.

Me and Mrs TC have some weird family issues historically, but were both amazingly close to at least one set of grand parents each. They were the best.  When we found out the first grand daughter was coming along I think we both personally made a pledge to be the kind of grand parents that we had.  I want them to have the same amazing Granda that I had and I hope long after I've gone they'll still have amazing warm memories of me.  I find it impossible to think of the girls without thinking about my own Granda at the same time.  Each time we see them, I leave their house knackered, bruised, skint and covered in make up and nail varnish.  I think I'm doing a good job so far

That's sad mate.  I feel for you.  I hope you can feel some peace that they were doing it for what the thought were the right reasons at the time.  Hope that doesn't sound patronising.  It's not meant to be.  Sounds like a great dad to be in your memories so long after.  

Only my experience but children are tougher than adults.  When our lovely collie had to be put to sleep I left him curled up in his bed so my two (and my wife) could say goodby, give him a stroke before we buried him in the garden.  Three family members died this year and we talked about it, it’s just life, I’ve told them I expect tears and lots of nice things said when I go.  They’ve even thought about songs for their own funerals 😮

This sort of thing is always tougher on the adults as we feel for the children and worry.

Good luck.

Toby

Thanks for the thoughts.   Most parents, my mother included, did what they think best for their children at the time.

Something my Dad liked (with a difficult in-law in mind) which I'm sure doesn't relate to you, was 'The reason why grandparents and grandchildren get on so well, is because they have common enemies'

It sounds like you could be doing a much worse job as grandparents. 

Haha sometimes I’m teaching some class, grilling the kids for missed homework and one of them will spot my glitter nail varnish.. 

life with 4/5 year olds is so funny. They are so inquisitive though, they take on so much new information on a daily basis and understand it to deeper levels all the time.

it's sad but standard practice then - I think also there was a feeling that young children were not appropriate to a funeral, or even weddings.  things have changed so much.