UKH

I've noticed far fewer flags on cars or draped on people's houses, fences etc. Have people now had enough of the forced drama, fake tension, hysterical commentary on every media outlet. After the pandemic and the cynical bid to create a European super-clique perhaps folks now see football for what it is - money, money, more money and a useful tool to distract the population. Or am I just being an out-of-touch sad geezer?

No idea, I have never liked football, I have tried over the years but I just didn't get it. Good to win I suppose but I couldn't care less either way.

I have always been delighted when each home nation team gets knocked out. It saves the tedious never ending radio chat about it. 

Thankfully Scotland went out ages ago so I don't need to hear about it with anyone here. 

The sport it's self is as harmless as any other and I have a similar lack of any care, but the culture surrounding football is abhorrent so I detest it for that reason. 

I couldn't be convinced to watch any sport.

Hmm. I'm in a band with 2 scots and a welshman, all fanatic sports fans apart from me (I'll watch the 6 nations and the TdF but nothing else). At last night's rehearsal the talk was mostly about how much they hoped Denmark would win and displaying quite unpleasant hatred towards the England team. Seems a shame to me as I've always tried to be supportive when scotland are doing well at a something even to the point of sending genuine congratulations when they won the calcutta cup this year. 

For me the reason I hope England don't win is we will have to hear about it for the next 60 odd years. We are still hearing about the world cup and that was in 1966! Other than that couldn't care less 

The two are not mutually exclusive.

You can still be an out-of-touch sad geezer (I think I've at least got associate membership of that club) even if more of the population are aware of the "beyond the game" aspects of football 😁

Do we just become more cynical as we get older or is it a result of experience showing us that there's more than just what's apparent on the surface.

One of my "favourites" is that I think governments are quite happy to put up with the problems and costs resulting from alcohol because "getting wasted" over the weekend keeps a lot of the population quiet.

Did you see the Casper Schmiecal quip about "it's coming home" - brilliant.

Dammed if we do damned if we don't 

Loose - Forever hear about how "Hurt" everyone is over men kicking a balloon around a field.

Win - celebrate how sh1t we've been for 50 years and finally won the men kick a balloon around a field game .

;-D

I do remember when I was young (like 20 years ago) there being major celebrations just when we qualified for the major tournaments (Beckham's last minute free kick in a qualifier springs to mind...). I think people maybe are more jaded by the expectation of failure - England did pretty well at Euro 96, but since then its been pretty ropey generally up until the last world cup. At least with internationals, you know the players are there because they want to. For me I no longer bother to watch domestic football - I dont mind the committed brilliant players, its the sulky average players still taking home double an average persons annual salary each week that is a turn off. 

I want them to win, but for me I am more excited about the upcoming Olympics - still a place where a nobody can become a somebody at least for 15 minutes of fame... Just a shame there looks like there wont be any fans at the venues to see it (still remember my day at London 2012!).

Are you kidding? The longer they stay in the better.

A big match is an ideal time to visit a popular crag! 

.

Well if we lose why do you think we won't go on about 1966 like we have for the last 60 years or the close calls in 1990, and 1996 and now possibly 2021...

Like it or not England is a football nation, I don't buy the bullshit about its coming home, but football plays a huge role in millions of British peoples lives.

I hope they stay in, quiet roads, quiet places, quiet crags.  But I’m not a fan.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57763001

Cheers

Toby

That smirk was soon wiped off his face though. 

Haven't you heard?  They're all Marxists now.  It seems to have done wonders for their game too.

A bit relieved to find out I'm not the only one.  I've never liked football, but spent a good portion of my life trying to like it...it's really difficult coming from a little north eastern pit village where everyone lives and breathes football and not liking it.  You tend to get singled out as being a "little bit odd". Gave up pretending quite a while ago and eventually found peace with my oddness.

I wished I got the attraction so that I could join in.  It's the ultimate conversation killer (particularly with barbers and taxi drivers) when you're asked about "that match the other night" and reply *Um, sorry mate, don't follow it"

Every match I've ever sat through looks exactly like every other match and I'm lost when people describe one as "great" and the another as "terrible".  I just don't get it.

But as someone else has pointed out, the roads were nice and quiet this morning presumably because everyone else was on the lash last night.  So, every cloud, etc.

youtube.com/watch?v=MusyO7J2inM&

Pretty much sums up my attitude to football

You’ve got two choices: the media continuing to constantly go on about 1966 (if we loose) OR the media constantly going on about 2021 (if we win).  I fancy a change. 

While I'm not normally at all interested in football, that's why I'd love to see them win.

Also, I don't think that bellend Lee Anderson (the Nottinghamshire MP who is boycotting them because they're 'woke') has had the piss taken nearly enough yet.

If you listen to some you'd think they'd already won. Jeremy vine comparing the celebration in London to the end of ww2. What a Muppet. 

What folk should be talking about are the same shameful fans booing the opposition etc... so many English football fans are just scum, compared to any other sport. 

I do actually enjoy a good match and used to watch MOTD quite avidly. What I can't believe is the assumption that anyone adult really believes football is this Big and Important. I come from Liverpool and the oft-quoted Shankly thing about football being more important than life and death just fills me with bemusement.

I watched it last night with 3 welshmen in the next room (all living in England). I'm not massively into football and I like to think of myself as more European than English but I just find the anti-English feeling in those circumstances quite mean and very annoying. I always support Wales, Scotland and England equally.

It's a really important unimportant thing. My team losing a big game can put me in a thunderously bad mood and yet is essentially meaningless. I like that. It gives my lesser-used emotional extremes a jeopardy-free work out.

Same here as regards sporting interest/viewing. I've zero interest in football but the England team's behaviour over the past few weeks has made me wish them success, in as much as I can support a team playing a game I don't care about. Supporting the England team is not the same as supporting England though. Despite being Scottish, I'll be willing England on to a win in the final, though I probably won't watch it. 

I did watch the game last night, the first I've seen since Zizou headbutted an Italian in 2006. I just don't get football, I thought it was a bit boring and didn't understand why the Dane's free kick or England's penalty were awarded as I didn't see anything which I would consider foul play. And as much as the England team are covering themselves in glory in many ways, I thought the booing from the stands was a disgrace.

Re the rugby, Scotland and France are my teams but prior to brexshit I always supported England over any Southern Hemisphere team. Not any more, but I don't buy into this 'anyone but England' bollocks. At its most benign, it's tiresome.

The fans booing during the national anthems are embarrassingly disrespectful. It would be good if some of the team could speak up about the issue. 

Italy also has more than its fair of scum football fans but I dont see that as a reflection of Italy in general.

It's this sort of thing that makes me warm to the England team as opposed to their supporters or the nation. Taking the knee, Kane's rainbow armband, as well as them being a generally thoughtful, decent and respectful bunch of people. A far cry from the supercar wrecking, drink driving, wife beating thugs of not so long ago. My hope is that if they win their sensibilities might rub off on football culture and help consign the meathead element to the margins. If Italy win it's guaranteed that post-tournament analyses in many a flat roofed pub will conclude that they spent too much time worrying about looking PC. 

The great thing about international football is that you can't buy success as in club football. This is why the world cup and the euros are so, so much better than club football.

John Barnes was on our local BBC station this morning saying how the team is full of youngsters due to the influx of foreign players into the premier league in recent years and consequently youth players not coming through and gaining enough experience.

Woke multicultural Marxists bring it home!

Wait, what?

I blame Nietzsche. Kill off God and you leave a great big belief-shaped gap people have just got to fill.

Mind you, I'm not surprised there's not much love for football on here. Half the climbers I know were always the last to be picked at school. Left them scarred for life.

Blimey what a joyless thread. How about letting people enjoy a distraction and excitement for a while.

Yes it's blanket coverage but next week we can go back to covid news every day - hurrah 

Gunter Nietzsche?, great goal  scorer.

I think trying to blind the Danish keeper with a laser pen pretty much sums up the morons who seem to flock to football.

I'm ambivalent about it myself. I was brought up in Leeds, it seemed to be compulsory to be a racist thug to support LUFC in those days, and I've avoided the game and its supporters ever since.

It's good to see the current England team seem far better than the spoilt, sulky millionaires who couldn't be arsed that made up the team in previous years, so hopefully thats improving.

Also, even from the coast of Cumbria, I heard the anguished howl of a Danish flag bedecked Tom in Edinburgh. So thats another plus.

On the whole though, I just don't get how adults can behave like irresponsible toddlers and start fighting and smashing stuff up over a game of bloody football.

It’s one of the reasons I got into climbing. Hated sport at school, rarely watched football. Now I’m a hardcore fan, love it. 

For the record: those anthem boo-ers can root in hell for all I care. 

Growing up as a 12 year old when "we" won the World Cup in 1966 I  was always keen to watch MOTD etc. However I have slowly become disenchanted over the years. Obscene salaries etc, the authorities failure to govern the game properly - shirt pulling, defenders holding opponents at set pieces, diving, simulation, dissent, arguing with the ref. It is not a beautiful game sadly. 

Investing emotional capital as a supporter in something beyond one's own control has allways seemed a bit ridiculous to me. I have missed many important matches over the years because going out climbing seemed more interesting.

Nowadays when I watch a game I just hope that the team that plays better wins. On Sunday that may not be England. Would it matter? Not a jot.

Hmmm. Not sure how true that is, and I’m a fan of John Barnes. What we have in England is a lot of top quality youngsters. Our under 17 team won the U17 World Cup 4 years ago, thrashing Spain. Fodden scored twice. The various youth teams have done really well. Partly due to FA investment (St George’s Park, which iirc was built partly because it was recognised we weren’t performing well enough and a top facility may help).  Some of these youngsters are managed/coached by the best. So I think the team is full of youngster because they are better than the olders. 

Such as "55 years of pain"

I like all football, and my preference is travelling to lower league away game.  For me, it’s the whole package I go for, the sense of identity, having a laugh.

The last World Cup was great, same with the Euros. But in terms of quality, Klopps Liverpool last season, and some recent Man City teams, would thrash England. And some of the best games I’ve seen recently was a few years ago when we ended up with all English teams in both euro finals. 

Agree, bur not sure it was the bricks and morter (or grass and astro?) more quality coaches and a change in ethos. 

Are the German's blaming their exit on Sancho and Bellingham? 

Quite.

I don't get fanatical football fans or obsessively following a sport that, most fans I'd imagine, have never even played. I'm usually "One of those" tedious rugby fans that rolls their eyes and changes the channel when the fitba is on but ffs it's one international tournament every 2 years lasting a few weeks, can we not just enjoy it for what it is?

I am also rather enjoying the "Anyone but England" mindset up here in Glasgow being thwarted at every game hahaha

Geoff Norcott made a comment the other day, something along the lines that what liberal-lefty types really dislike is the sight of people they hold in contempt being cheerful or gleeful, hence why football winds them up. 

I don't have time for the game either.  But I do suspect the hatred of the culture is based on the sort of lazy stereotypes and generalisations that would proabably be decried if aimed at any other similarly harmless gathering.  A white, middle-aged, working-class, van-man for some reason isn't considered deserving.

It is nauseating enough already seeing Johnson parading at Wembley in his England shirt ( who bought him that?) ,Patel tweeting her support and Mogg reciting John Barnes' rap lyrics in the Commons. If England win we can expect it to be portrayed as Brexit bonus. Vomit!!

Yeah Barnes is bang wrong. England have done well in their youth set ups for a while now, 21's, 17's.

We've genuine competition. Sancho, Rashford, James and Bellingham have hardly played, Greenwood and TAA didn't get selected. I think the top foreigners help develop the talent, they show how the game should be played and that keep ball late in the game was evidence of that. If anything our players still play too much, Rashford always gets to April and looks destroyed. He's 23 and has 45 England caps and 180 United appearances.

I think it's more a change in culture, less emphasis on raw power and a slow change for more technical players. And then top coaches at the top and lower down.

Re millionaires of the past.. They cared. Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard never achieved what they should have done but I don't think it was merely not wanting it. Pressure, expectation, a lack of depth were issues.

Looking at the world cup only Walker would be a doubt really, but it's a pity it is going to be such a hot country.

Nope, it's the rise in domestic violence (+25% when England plays and draws or wins, +36% when they lose), the trashing of town centres, the hatred and vitriol surrounding it. Scottish fans just as bad, old firm fans even worse. 

People are welcome to be as cheerful and gleeful as they want, but there is a lot of violence and thuggery surrounding football which I hold in contempt.

Those were the days when footballers had proper hair.

Greenwood and TAA were selected but pulled out with injury, I am pretty sure. Walker has more than vindicated his selection, even if I would love to see Trent in the side.

I hope you are correct – not that you are an out of touch sad geezer, of course – but perhaps folks now see football for what it is.

As you can probably guess I have no interest in football, though during the coverage of, I think, the 1996 World Cup, I saw Zinedine Zidane and if every footballer played like him, I think would be a convert.

The media do go over the top; I have seen quite a few news reports recently where the first item was the Euros they  go on for ages.

I know there are loads of football supporters who are perfectly reasonable people but the game seems to attract some who I am surprised can walk and talk at the same time. For example, the person with laser pointer and those disrupting the Danish national anthem.

About 10 or so years ago I went to the Rugby League Challenge Cup final at Wembley. I thought a sign in one of the bars which read that drinks were not allowed in the stadium, during football matches, said it all.

Dave

I hope England do win, but I think the hype about comparisons with 1966 and how this team would go down likewise in history is completely misplaced. This is not the world cup; it is only the Euros. I am sure that there are many like me that could name every world cup winner since 1966 no problem but would struggle with most Euros winners. The world cup is an order of magnitude bigger deal. The real measure of this team will be how they do next year, especially if they are not lucky enough to get the soft draws they have enjoyed this year and three years ago.

I thought Greenwood just missed out, true I forgot TAA made it back in but then had to drop out. Walker has certainly justified his spot. It's hard to say any of GS decisions have been wrong. 

I watched the game when England went out of the World Cup in 2006 (to Portugal?) with a friend who dismissed the players similarly. He changed his tune when they were, almost to a man, in tears at the final whistle. There may have been other issues, but it certainly wasn't that they didn't care.

It’s worth noting that the last World Cup was an all European affair beyond the quarter finals and the FIFA rankings are dominated by European teams. It obviously doesn’t have the prestige of the World Cup, but it doesn’t mean it is easier to win. The World Champions (France) and the world ranked number one team (Belgium) were in this competition and got knocked out.

I agree with this, the idea that previous England teams haven’t cared enough it quite wrong. There have been all number of issues, but not caring enough certainly wasn’t one of them.

Marx was rubbish
youtube.com/watch?v=LfduUFF_i1A&

Let me guess before I click the link:

My, brother, knows, Karl Marx, He met him eating mushrooms in the peoples park, He said 'What do you think about my manifesto?' 'I like a manifesto, put it to the test-o.'

Bugger, wrong, here's what I thinking of:

youtube.com/watch?v=jxmZZBJQAKM&

Take as much joy from whatever source suits you (even the Euros). I'll certainly enjoy the match. But, win or lose, I won't take it as a national triumph or tragedy of epic proportions. It's just jumpers for goalposts with obscene amounts of Dosh pumped in.

It’s easier to remember the World Cup Winners since 1966 because there are fewer of them because it is not as tough a contest.  All European teams apart from Brazil and Argentina. 
 

Regarding the soft draws England have had: you’re surely having a laugh?  Croatia (World Cup finalists) and Germany.....

I think it's a shame that quite a lot of people - especially here - don't appreciate the opportunity to watch people who are the very best at what they do in the entire world. It's not as easy as they make it look - these are big blokes, thundering around at high speed, turning on a sixpence and all the while displaying extraordinary skills of ball control, anticipation and collision avoidance. There is extraordinary courage out there for those who have eyes to see - from just going out on a pitch in front of 60,000 spectators, to taking a penalty, to just keep battling on when you're 3 nil down and just ten minutes to go. Unlike rugby, top standard matches keep going until the whistle blows - how do they do that? Yes these are  arbitrary skills but isn't climbing rocks, daubing oil on canvass, plucking taut strings, or chipping away at a rock?

And the scene has definitely moved on from the 'Well I put the ball in the back of the net, Harry' type conversation or George Best type conspicuous consumption. (After all, as Peter Crouch said, it's not their fault that people throw money at them, and no one is going to say 'no thanks'.)  There's plenty of pundits now are are articulate, amusing and thoughtful, and plenty of players likewise. Even supporters - perhaps the majority - show their support with wit, generosity and style and for whom really, it's as much a focus for friendships and socialising as a mindless obsession. 

No, I honestly think that for someone like me who is not a dedicated football follower but can watch any sport on TV if the occasion is of sufficient magnitude, it is because the World Cup is a much bigger deal. This is why we all know that Spain has won it once but probably not that they have won the euros three times (I just happened to hear this yesterday!). 

We'll see. I suspect England are in for a big dose of reality against Italy.

And even if, as I hope they do, England win tomorrow, I think we'll be hearing about 100 years of hurt in 2066, not 55 years; in the national consciousness this would be nothing like a world cup win.

Re the World Cup - I get what you mean know. 

Re: the reality check playing Italy. I think our players will be completely aware of how good they are. Our media will come out with sound bite rubbish, but even fans like me know how good they are etc. Listening to Roy Hodgson earlier - Italy’s midfielders play with lots of pace, especially winning the ball back - not something normally associated with Italian football. Conversely, some Italian expert was saying how good England are defensively, especially our midfielders who are strong and protect our defence, possibly at the cost to our attacking play. 

Very good post Rob, and I never really thought about it like that. It's one of those things, like ballet, where I know there's lots of skill, dedication, passion etc. involved, but it just leaves me cold.

I also can't get past the obscene salaries, spending on flash cars and collosal egos when it comes to the players.

Likewise the supporters might be normal people on their own, but together they're just a shouting, drink throwing bunch of idiots with no thought for those around them as they dick about in pubs and shopping centres on their way to the match.

I appreciate what you've said, but its not for me.

Well, we're certainly world class at watching it.  I've watched a few of the Euro games but I've certainly enjoyed, say, France v Switzerland more than the England games.  I was disappointed that Wales didn't live up to the promise they showed last time but I got over it. 

The whole 1966 thing depresses me.  It's as if we are actively trying to become a smaller, less significant nation in terms of our international political, economic, cultural and moral influence but all that matters is the delusion that we are a major force in international football.  First, we're not and never have been; and second, it's just football.  

Somehow, other sports we are good at (rugby, cricket  and cycling, for example) don't generate the same level of jingoism, and certainly not the same toxic conflation of 1966 with 1945.

I wish the team well, and Gareth Southgate seems a genuinely competent and decent guy, but I'm not looking forward to next weeks' completely disproportionate media meltdown if we win.  If only we could be as modest and graceful in victory as we (most of us anyway) have learnt to be in defeat.    

What a load of generalising bollocks.  

"Somehow, other sports we are good at (rugby, cricket  and cycling, for example) don't generate the same level of jingoism, and certainly not the same toxic conflation of 1966 with 1945."

Really? I think Cricket does and Rugby is getting there, but without football they'd be at those other sports. Look at Cricket violence in Pakistan/India. 

It's easy to blame the sports but they'd be somewhere else anyway.

Sadly England is an insular little place and that's ingrained in many peoples mindsets. Hence why we are dealing with the Brexit bullshit and little Englander issues for eternity.

Football is merely a symptom of a wider retrogressive nostalgia for a world war few now actually experienced, and for a lost imperial Britain. If it hadn't been West Germany in the 1966 final that toxic conflation would never have happened, and we might have had a more sensible relationship with the sport.

Olympics 2012 and Murraymania to name a few. 

Ever been in a bar in Spain or Italy when there national team is playing?Unreal. Other countries like Brazil have the same attitude  

uk is globally recognised as the home of football . Like   Scotland is too golf. 
 

I don't get the salaries issue.

Film stars get more, musicians get more, formula 1. 

They are immensely talented.

You may say it's ego but I think that's wrong. They have immense confidence but that allows them to step up and be brave. You see the lesser players disappear when it matters and guys like Ronaldo want that pressure. Speak to anyone who knew Ronaldo when he was a skinny 18 year old runt at United. They loved him because he wanted it so bad, he worked and worked and worked. Diet, fitness, strength, practice.

Compare him at 36, with Rooney at 35. Obviously genetics is a factor but the dedication Ronaldo has is incredible. It's easy to dismiss him as a poser but he's such a great example for kids. Good family guy, committed. OK he has talent but he works so hard on and off the field.

Really. Try telling that to the Spanish and remember the celebrations when they won the World Cup for example. 
 

We are really no different. 

What has my post got to do with Spanish celebrations?

Despite not liking it or understanding it and switching off and zoning out of any conversation about it, I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone the passion they have over it.

Indeed, I'm a little bit jealous of the bond and cameraderie it generates.

I really have tried to like it...I just don't get it.

Game of two halves, innit

I'm not a football fan, I'm Scottish and I'm looking forward to the game. I'm not bothered who wins but, as you say, I like the occasion.

Curious though. Presumably England were world champions until 1970 so isn't it 51 years of hurt?

As a Scot, you should know that Scotland beat England in 1967, so assumed the mantle of world champions ...

Ha! I will happily take that nugget to the (Derbyshire) pub on Sunday.

Never thought of that, you’re right. Not worth changing it now though, it’ll be binned after Sundays game, hopefully  

I really don't agree - most people enjoying the England team's current performances would not identify with this. Yeah, the brainless minority see it that way, including some politicians hijacking it for that purpose, but most of us are just enjoying the excitement, drama and little bit of hope that comes with following a team in a tournament. There is definitely nostalgia in there but it's mostly healthy, just harking back to Euro 96 or Italia 90 which were both tournaments where England improved as it went on (and yes, lost to Germany both times).

I have a weekly meeting with some colleagues in Germany - the first one after the England-Germany match, they offered their sincere congratulations and we just joked about how we're not used to feeling like this...it's just a friendly rivalry to most people.

It really is just about the joy that sport can bring to people's lives.

But the thing that they're good at simply isn't something I'm interested in. I don't watch ballet, or bands playing (I listen to a lot, though), or a vast array of other world leaders in their chosen activity. I'm not really even interested in watching climbing, especially competition climbing. So I'm not going to waste my time watching football; for me, it was only ever an opportunity to meet up with mates in the pub. Since I'm not going to pubs at the moment, I have no interest in watching the football.

And Scotland's draw with England a couple of weeks ago will make them joint European champions should England win tomorrow.

I was responding to Dave Garnett's 'whole 1966 thing'. Maybe I should have been more specific. I quite agree with you about the idiots and the bandwagon-jumping politicians, and the way that things are changing. I am sure that generational change will see these attitudes withering away. At the moment it's that generation that didn't directly experience the war but heard about it from parents that seem to be the driving force behind this toxic nostalgia.

I'm not quite sure why, but I get pleasure from seeing England either humiliated or doing really well. A so-so tournament for them is just boring. The defeat to Iceland last time was as satisfying as a win tomorrow would be.

I think 2012 Olympics was a bit different and there was a lot to celebrate not only in terms of medals but also the organisation and even, amazingly, the opening ceremony.  Even so, people aren't obsessed by it. 

Sure, and I have no problem with England fans being as noisy as they like during the match in bars or anywhere else, within reason.  I still don't think that the Spanish wallow in a sense of national grievance and entitlement over their 21 years of hurt since they last won it.  The Italians don't complain when the trophy doesn't come home despite having won it 4 times. 

Of course the Brazilians actually did get to keep the Jules Rimet after the third time they won it, and, having won twice more since then, somehow struggle to achieve English levels of self pity despite their trouncing by Germany.  Actually, the Brazilians don't need to win a football match to provide an excuse to celebrate, they were more or less permanently in party mode, at least before COVID. 

Yes, it's perfect storm.  The whole 'one World Cup and two World Wars' attitude is contemptible.  The fact that is still hasn't died out is really depressing/ 

The bit of Ridge's post I took issue with was the idea that the drunken shouting idiots might be normal people when on their own. The thankfully small number of football fans I've known who fall into that category were complete arseholes when on their own as well, just a bit quieter and less bolshy without their lagered up army around them. 

Of course it was a generalisation, but it's a more honest and accurate appraisal than saying that the minority who boo anthems, take over town centres etc aren't representative of football culture. 

Ah yes, fair enough, I didn't follow the thread up to see what you were responding to

Out of interest, what % of football fans do you think fall into the bracket of, let’s call them, yobs?  

How would I know? I've no doubt it is a minority. I can only go by what I experience. If you are bothered by this sort of generalising you should address the cause of it, unless you don't acknowledge a cause.

You're quite right, as the late great Willie John Macbride put it

It matters for all the world who's going to win, but not at all who won

Or something like that 

A win tomorrow really would be a miracle. 

I suspect given our throwaway culture the prominence (or not) of flags during tournaments may be in part down to who's giving them away at any given time, maybe there are for whatever reason few free sources at present.

Also maybe the brexity flag shagging of the last few years and the enduring use of the George cross at the nationalistic fringes of our 'politics' has turned a few people off flags as a symbol of support for the English national team.

All that said, I've seen quite a few hanging out of windows and fluttering on cars over the last couple of days.

jk

IMHO a good 30% of the ones you encounter on trains or in pub on match days are genuinely unpleasant people, plus another 40% who join in to try and fit in with the idiots because they're desperate for some sort of 'identity' or acceptance.

I’ve never been to an England game. But I’ve been to most grounds in England’s top 3 leagues, the bigger grounds usually as distinct underdogs with little rivalry. Had great times at all of them, witnessed no hooliganism apart from minor fighting with Bolton - teenagers trying to act hard. The cause of yobbish behaviour at England mystifies me. I’m no expert but strikes me it’s so deep rooted that they don’t know why they do it. The booing of the anthems is weird. They’re not even sat in big groups with their mates egging each other on. 

Wow, that’s quite high and far removed from my experience (although, surprisingly for someone who drinks as much as I do, I’ve only ever been in one pub before a game and that’s was at Wembley).

Yes, I feel for you and all the other football fans having this rubbish invading your pleasure. But I've been on multiple nights out in Edinburgh after rugby internationals and although it gets rowdy, I've never seen real unpleasantness, even between us and the English fans, who are usually celebrating rather than drowning their sorrows.

Anyway, I'm off to wipe my eyes as I've been watching Cav win his 34th stage.

Really.

Sadly I think it's 50-50.

Come on Italy.

No chance either team will win tomorrow..

I think his point is the game is Sunday.

true

Even in the '80's I think that would be far too high. Things had improved significantly by the late' 90's when I regularly took 100 kids from West Cumbria to Anfield. I haven't been to as many football matches since then but I don't recognise your figures. To some extent I would agree with Roy Keane's "prawn sandwich" issue

Weird but I like watching football, rugby u and cricket (all as a fully paid up plastic fan) but am completely mystified by other sports viewing, although I did get into sumo for a bit. Vive la difference 

When I was a lot younger I'd sneer at train spotters although when I wised up I realised they're enjoying their passion and good on em for that. 

not *that* brilliant - he totally missed the point. The song isn't about 'the trophy' coming home, it's about 'football' coming home. As in the game, the final, being played at Wembley as it was in 1996 when the song was written.

Butterfingers didn't look so smug when he palmed the ball back for Harry Kane to smash home

I guess I and the many many other football fans I know must either be in the remaining 30%, or must be deluding ourselves about our unpleasantness or neediness. Your figures bear no relation to my own experience, as a long-time watcher and long-ceased distinctly average player of football. Have you attended many actual matches?

Oops. It's been that sort of day; this morning I made a 60 mile round trip for a physio appointment that is tomorrow.

Bugger. I once went fishing on Coniston, drove back to Wigan and realised I’d left some tackle on the lake shore. Up early next morning to retrieve it and saw some lads who I thought may have ‘liberated it’. So I asked if they’d seen it etc. Convinced they had it I went to copy their car reg down and thought I needed to be discreet so opened my boot and did some shuffling around and then noticed the missing tackle. It’s been in my boot all along. A massive tool box size thing as well!  
Hope your injury/physio goes well. 

In cricket, they have desperately sought a new audience with T 20 and the Hundred. Money may be brought in to the game but crowds can often be loud, intimidating and DRUNK. I think the problems revolve more around our attitude to alcohol as much as the sports themselves.

It would be nice if you could keep TdF spoilers to the TdF spoiler thread. A lot of people don't know the result until after the highlights show at 7pm or until the next day, when it's on the ITV Hub. 

Sorry, and good point. I've been getting a lot of stick from friends on FB for the same reason.

Anti English hatred is alive and well in Scotland, fueled in large part by Blackford and co of the SNP.

Here's the latest example

https://uk.yahoo.com/sports/news/save-us-roberto-scottish-newspaper-0840266...

So they "can't take another 55 years of us banging on about this",

My heart bleeds for them, we've been listening to them banging on about Bannockburn for 700 bl**dy years.

Funny as Geoff is, alternatively it could be when you read about the numbers of people calling black players the n word on Twitter, or sharing pictures of a young German girl crying and wishing that she dies, that you think there's something pretty dark that comes out through football fan culture.

But did that start back when you were a liberal-lefty? Or is it, as I think the Economist put it last week, since Tories started seeing Gareth Southgate as an "agent of the deep-Woke"! I thought once you awoke to the Anti-Woke you'd be all up for celebrating football fandom in all it's ummm... "political diversity"?

https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/07/01/euro-2020-politics-by-other-mea...

Did you know the lead singer of the Sultans of Ping FC is now a professor of modern European political thought at King's? Whodathunkit with that lyric!

Some random ramblings:

26+ million people watched Denmark:England on TV. In 2019, aggregate attendance of prem league, championship and leagues 1 and 2 was 34 million.  The attraction is difficult to work out. I’ve watched far more than my fair share of utterly boring, drab games. But they are punctuated my moments of mad crazy elation. Just like climbing, I gave up analysing why I liked it a long time ago (I gave up climbing a long time ago thinking about it!). I’m one of those fans who seeks out the parts of the stadiums where all the banter and chanting is. When Will Grigg scored that goal (apols to City fans for bringing it up again, I know you understand) I went totally ballistic. Everyone around me did. It was crazy. I know many folk (most on here?) don’t get it. That’s cool. I like letting my hair down and going mad. I like classical music but also used to like moshing and crowd surfing at Mudhoney and Soundgarden gigs. I think football more than most sports generates these crazy emotions. One is a sense of belonging. It’s your team or your country. Rugby league is similar (others might be, I don’t know).  It’s passion that’s passed down. And with football, one single moment can change everything and this regularly happens. It is a low scoring game with very fine margins. 

The yobbish behaviour - I can’t stand it and glad it’s so I frequent (and lessening).  Football is weird in that it attracts this behaviour. The neo Nazi firms in places like Russia have taken it to the next level. Violent thugs, finding an outlet for political violence.  Or just violence.  Not drink related. They need to be sober for that level or fighting. 

Most large football grounds have family friendly zones. At Wigan it was a whole stand. Loads of people watching their local team have been doing so for decades - loads of older folk and it’s often the highlight of their week. When clubs are on The Brink, those clips of Mr and Mrs Oldest Supporter who won’t be able to see their team make me well up. For reasons I can’t fathom, the routine of going to the match has become one of the most important things in their lives. Yes, there’s some idiots causing trouble but anyone who thinks this is larger than a very small minority is wrong. In fact, in recent years I can name the games Ive seen trouble.  And I’ve been to many an away game when the only thing I’ve got is a warm friendly welcome.  

And whilst football rivalry does exist (and I like most aspects of it tbh), it also brings opposing fans together. For instance, I remember being at a very wet away game  at Blackpool when we all started chanting ‘Oystens Out’ and we got a massive round of applause. I’m sure they would have done the same when we recently got screwed over. 

It could be worse. You could be a Conservative politician having to pretend to care passionately about something you don’t really give a f*ck about. 

In the mid '90's we used to take two coach loads of school kids, from West Cumbria to 6/7 games at Anfield every season. In 96, for the first time, we had several girls who wanted to see the Newcastle game. Needing a female member of staff I persuaded the future Mrs J to come along. I still remember here complaining after a hour or so that nothing seemed to be happening and she couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. To this day that is the only football game she has watched, but she says she understands my interest in football more than climbing. 

But aren't they used to that, after all, far too many of them only give a f*ck about themselves.

I've been messaging a new friend (a friend's cousin it turns out) about the football, we've both agreed that we like when it makes other people happier, but we're not particularly fussed.  If it lifts a lot of people's moods following covid, if England actually win, that'd be good.

I think there's potentially something a bit superior, about seeing it as something to distract the masses with...

Have you heard the phrase 'bread and circuses'? Coined by the Romans for their way of controlling the population of their city. I can't help thinking this is one of those things that (although not provided by governments) is encouraged as an outlet for letting off steam otherwise let off in ways they wouldn't like. Just watching Johnson etc pretending to lap it up just makes me sure it's so. Soaps, and TV in general, are another example. You aren't going to go out and riot about how crap it all is when the latest cliffhanger of East Enders is on.

I dunno, it depends. Why is it any worse than/different to going to watch a climbing competition?

Boris Johnson is as shallow and false and duplicitous and narcissistic as anybody, and would put on an athletics vest if that's what it was the county was getting behind, but don't see that as a reflection on football (which I'm neutral about).

Just my 2p's worth, other opinions exist too...

Aren't you forgetting about the poor Italians and Scots?

I actually have some sympathy with Johnson on this. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

The problem with generalisations is that they're normally pretty accurate

 "that you think there's something pretty dark that comes out through football fan culture."

Do you not think it's petty nationalism and tribalism? Remove that culture and it'll come out in another form.

Racism has certainly returned to the game. Football did well in changing the atmosphere from the late 80's to the 2000's the atmosphere at games changed a lot but it's still there.

When India and Pakistan play cricket it's a much more toxic atmosphere than when Germany and England play (obviously the former two are still at war), but those same nationalists jump on the bandwagon and there's often violence.

Even to this day when I put on clips from the 1999 Cup final for my students (it's always in my science quizzes) I get goose pimples. 22 years later and it was like it was yesterday. The same with that Steve Bruce goal in 1993.  It's hard to explain to none football people.

TBH I'm generally just not as emotionally invested in England games but I am much more at the moment. This team are very likeable though. 

It was a strange anti-climax after Wednesdays game though. 

Sounds like an inadequate lesson to me 😊

I always thought some  Americans had an interesting take on what constitutes  Science. Just as well you didn't move to Bavaria

Even my half Italian niece is finding it hard to find much negative to say about them. 

Football is the most popular sport in the country by far, and it really is the people's game. Its fanbase is all of society and of course that includes loud agressive dickheads. We can abandon the game to them or add our own behaviour as a counterpoint. The more popular and mainstream football has got, the less violent, racist, etc. it has got.

Not really, if the polls and indeed the election results are to be believed.

Many other sports have national followings without the aggro or venom, rugby being the best example I can come with just now.

I suspect his has more to do with racism returning to general public discourse and having been, in the minds of very many, legitimised over the past 5 years or so.

Any politician being seen to get behind a national team will be applauded by their supporters and condemned by their opponents, but condemned by everyone if they don't.

I would hope that most people can spot the hypocrisy of offering over the top support now when not long ago the players were slagged off for demanding more support for the poorest relying on food banks or rebuked for taking a stance against racism. 

im not a football fan but hope we do win, with Italy's form though i dont hold much hope. currently more into cavs performance

I see it as the darkness of some humans, to be honest, there's similar sentiments found in other corners and cultures, some of what sent Greta Thunburg's way was pretty dark. There was one occasion where a guy was going to jump, in Derby, and some mean spirited people who had gathered around goaded him into jumping, which cost him his life. There was a gofundme to raise money for the crying German girl too by some football fans, IIRC.

Wherever one looks, there's some darkness to be found, and goodness...

Edit: One could look at honour killings in the UK, and how people celebrate pedophiles being killed by vigilantes in the US, or religiously motivated stoning of women in Iraq following the fall of Saddam, and end up with a pretty dark of humans in humans in general. It just depends on where one looks, and what one looks at. 

Edit 2: On a cheerier note, here's the page where money was raised in the spirit of showing the German girl not everybody in the UK was mean spirited. https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/litte-girl

There has been an increase in racism in the stadiums.  Totally wrong but small. Great that it gets singled out and action usually taken. I’ve taken loads of asylum seekers to Wigan Latics games, not just a as part of Kick Racism Out of Football but as part of their community engagement (and it’s easier due to lack of ticket demand !!).  I’m always panicky but the only thing that happens is hugely positive. Most football fans I know are fairly hard core left, anti oppressive and welcoming of differences. However, online racism has increased and good to see footballers taking a stance (even though its effectiveness is in doubt ).  

It’s interesting to compare football with sports like rugby and point out, with evidence, that more yobish/racist/jingoistic behaviour occurs more  at football than at these sports. But the number of sound, normal, culturally accepting people watching football is probably a number of magnitudes greater than all the fans of other sports added together. 

Time for a photo , hang on a mo...

Edit: some fecker has nicked my St Pauli t shirt.  Go on,  own up. 

£36k to UNICEF - brilliant !  

You might not encounter much punching, biting and gouging on the terraces at rugby matches, but isn't that cos they're confined to the field of play?

It's more in the UK they follow football, in other countries it's other sports. 

It's more my kahoots, although there's often a bonus question about Norman Whiteside's winning goal in the 1985 FA cup final, which they now all know the answer too..

The problem is half my classes know the way to derail a chem class is just ask me about the weekend's games.

Is it though?  Last time I adopted this strategy (during some sort of Englerland involved semi-final kick-ball thingy, roughly a decade ago) every other kick-ball hating nerd had the same idea (there's a surprising number of us) and the place was, rather disappointingly, rammed.

It's a good thing then that most people don't give a stuff about Cav and the Tour.

I've not attended since the early 90's, where I was sickened by the racism, violence and general yobbishness. I've gone out of my way to avoid football and fans ever since, but whenever I've been unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time I've not seen anything to change my mind. TV coverage hasn't changed that view.

However, from what the football fans here have said, it sounds like it has changed for the better. I'm glad about that, but it's still an environment I'd prefer to avoid.

England fans already smashing the place up, insulting and harrasing Italians.

Come on Italy

I’m at Stanage right now and it’s deserted!

Only kidding, I’m actually at home watching the replay of the British Bouldering Championships.

Okay this did make me chuckle somewhat