Farming subsidies

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https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/16/1m-a-minute-the-farming...

Somewhat depressing to read this and reflect upon Johnson prancing around beef farms for photo opportunities and grubbing for votes by talking about how we’re going to export fantastic Scottish beef to the US.

Still, no reason to expect any kind of decent behaviour from him, of course.

jcm

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Pan Ron 16 Sep 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Somewhat depressing to read this and reflect upon Johnson prancing around beef farms for photo opportunities and grubbing for votes by talking about how we’re going to export fantastic Scottish beef to the US.

> Still, no reason to expect any kind of decent behaviour from him, of course.

Boris-Derangement Syndrome.

Any other PM talking about increased exports would be a good thing.  But because its Boris this becomes evidence of deplorable behaviour?

Some love to blame Boris for increased partisanship in politics.  Can you not see that constantly crying wolf does the same?

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 hokkyokusei 16 Sep 2019
In reply to Pan Ron:

What's stopping the export of Scottish beef to the US right now?

 Hat Dude 16 Sep 2019
In reply to hokkyokusei:

> What's stopping the export of Scottish beef to the US right now?

Not enough hormones or antibiotics in it for US tastes

Removed User 16 Sep 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I've a neighbour who has had £200,000 in tax payer hand outs in the last 8 years. Yet they still seem able to profiteer by selling land off for "executive" housing. Farming subsidies are an unjustifiable tax on the rest. Many farmers corr business model is harvesting subdudies, not producing food. 

 birdie num num 16 Sep 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

It’s a bit of a stretch though to link Johnson’s activities to how global subsidies to agriculture are directed don't you think? 

Regardless of the prancing and grubbing you describe.

Your balance is clouded, as always by your hatred, and again, you come across as ridiculous.

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 Ridge 17 Sep 2019
In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

> I've a neighbour who has had £200,000 in tax payer hand outs in the last 8 years. Yet they still seem able to profiteer by selling land off for "executive" housing. Farming subsidies are an unjustifiable tax on the rest. Many farmers corr business model is harvesting subdudies, not producing food. 

Conversely my neighbouring farmers seem to be hanging on by a thread, and selling off any land would impact their businesses to the point they'd go under. Farming is not all weathy landowners ripping of the public and cutting about in brand new Range Rovers.

 tspoon1981 17 Sep 2019
In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

£25000 per annum isn't actually that much though, especially given the costs associated with running a farm, just look up prices for a basic combine, a second hand grain dryer or any other farming machinery. I've seen farmers have AD plants grant funded, bought land half of which was EU grant funded, put in Biomass boilers all grant funded. So your neighbor's are doing themselves out of grants or don't know where to look for grant funding.

Selling off land to turn into housing makes financial sense, bare land fetches between £8k and £12k an acre, last time I knew someone sell land for housing they were getting £30k an acre. You would do the same if you wanted a pension pot or just wanted some extra cash and had the land available. It's not really the farmers that are abusing the basic subsidies, there is a golf course in Aberdeenshire that I think was picking up £1million in subsidies, I will need to check that amount though. 

The issue that will come when the farm subsidies stop, will be the larger concerns swooping in to buy off any land cheaply. I know a few farmers with 7000+ acres who are eyeing up agri land to pick up cheaply post Brexit and looking to turn certain elements of their farming practices into industrialised/American style farming. 

The whole system is designed so consumers don't have to pay a fair price for food. As time goes on consumers are becoming more and more disconnected with where their food comes from, they won't consider what the actual costs are when it comes to food production.

 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to Ridge:

> Conversely my neighbouring farmers seem to be hanging on by a thread, and selling off any land would impact their businesses to the point they'd go under. Farming is not all weathy landowners ripping of the public and cutting about in brand new Range Rovers.

That's because the whole food market, CAP etc in Europe's is totally buggered up. By the eu. 

It was more, now CAP is down to a modest 40% of the Eu's total budget. We pay taxes, which in turn form that pot. Food is so cheap in the shops for us to buy, many farmers barely even make profit, from which to them pay themselves a wage. As you say many farms rely on CAP payment to clear their overdraft annually and on the cycle goes.

CAP then pays farmers, primarily based on land ownership and a few minor environmental schemes. It in no way shape or form correlates with the food produced, the varying margins of different products, any economies of scale or real high impact environmental measures. 

It's a complete shambles. Always has been, from lakes and mountains, to the set aside, to today. But it won't change as it's the French baby and they have most leverage over it. 

There is a knock effect to stewardship of the countryside though. If farmers are killing themselves (literally in some cases) doing 70hrs plus weeks year round, then those pet green initiatives don't get done, the footpaths and stiles aren't maintained, they certainly don't care about the badger or fox population. So next time folk buy their milk for a few pennies, they need to consider at the other end of the chain is a farmer making a loss trying to manage the very land they enjoy walking in on a weekend.

Would you get up and go to work today, only to by slightly poorer by 5pm?

Post edited at 07:10
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Removed User 17 Sep 2019
In reply to tspoon1981:

I'd have no problem with farm land being sold off for housing if the cassh was repaid to the taxpayer. Much needed social housing should be being built in rural areas not footballer wives style mansions.

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 John2 17 Sep 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

So some of the money which we pay to the EU goes to subsidise inefficient farmers. Who knew?

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 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to John2:

> So some of the money which we pay to the EU goes to subsidise inefficient farmers. Who knew?

They aren't necessarily inefficient. Supermarkets just don't pay the real cost of production because they know cap subsidies exist. It's screwed at all levels. And why don't supermarkets pay more, public pressure for cheap food. 

 John2 17 Sep 2019
In reply to summo:

The French are in love with the idea of 'la France profonde' - the deeply rural areas in which a few cattle roam around picturesque Alpine meadows with bells round their necks.

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 freeflyer 17 Sep 2019
In reply to summo:

What if anything can we do about this after a Brexit that we couldn’t do before? I believe the Commission the French and Germans have plans to reform CAP in the near future, not sure how, it seems quite complicated. They say we now spend 15% of our income on food as opposed to 30% in 1960

 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to freeflyer:

> What if anything can we do about this after a Brexit that we couldn’t do before? I believe the Commission the French and Germans have plans to reform CAP in the near future, not sure how, it seems quite complicated. They say we now spend 15% of our income on food as opposed to 30% in 1960

Cap reforms pretty much constantly. By the time one amendment goes live, the next is being talked about. I wouldn't expect any startling changes, the French wouldn't allow it. 

What to do. Depends on the goal. Post Brexit you can do anything. You can reward results in terms of the environment measure actually put in place, whilst also subsidising food production, but not pure land ownership. Grouse moors and the like should receive nothing. 

 john arran 17 Sep 2019
In reply to summo:

> Cap reforms pretty much constantly. By the time one amendment goes live, the next is being talked about. I wouldn't expect any startling changes, the French wouldn't allow it. 

> What to do. Depends on the goal. Post Brexit you can do anything. You can reward results in terms of the environment measure actually put in place, whilst also subsidising food production, but not pure land ownership. Grouse moors and the like should receive nothing. 

A fine example of disparaging the 'other' (in this case the French) as being unreasonable while managing to pretend that 'we' are likely to be much more reasonable, in this case quoting grouse moor policies that will certainly have been put in place very much by the UK government. No Brexit unicorn is going to change something that the UK wanted in the first place.

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 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to john arran:

I'd agree. But grouse moor management can't get any worse and by staying in CAP there is no suggestion it will get better. The defra plan at present for beyond 2022 is payment by result for environmental measure and rewarding production, not ownership of hectares. Of course only time will tell. 

At the end of the day I don't think anything will improve. Most people don't value their farmers and food production. They moan about the risk of usa chlorinated chicken(mainly myth), whilst bleaching their own kitchens and then expect to buy food at rock bottom prices with little thought for how it's produce, where it's produce and by whom. Most console themselves by spending a few quid at a farmers market in between a £100 shop at Tescos etc. 

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 john arran 17 Sep 2019
In reply to summo:

> They moan about the risk of usa chlorinated chicken(mainly myth), whilst bleaching their own kitchens

I fear you may have misunderstood the chlorinated chicken issue. The problem is not the chlorine itself but the need for it in the first place to try (not entirely successfully) to make up for some shitty (literally) animal welfare and hygiene practices.

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 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to john arran:

> I fear you may have misunderstood the chlorinated chicken issue. The problem is not the chlorine itself but the need for it in the first place to try (not entirely successfully) to make up for some shitty (literally) animal welfare and hygiene practices.

I agree, but a vast amount of battery farmed European chicken carry the same bacteria or viruses. Plus they stopped using chlorine for other cleaning chemicals sometime ago. If you can buy a whole chicken in a supermarket for a couple of quid then I don't know why people think UK living conditions are much better. Measures like the Red tractor scheme normally give 24hrs notice before farm visits, for convenience apparently. 

Although, I wouldn't touch USA meat, because of their growth hormone and antibiotic use any way. The same reason(antibiotic use) I would not touch meat from most of Europe too. 

Post edited at 12:51
 john arran 17 Sep 2019
In reply to summo:

So the EU has been somehow preventing the UK putting in place better animal welfare measures? If not, how can you be using this as another stick to try to discredit the EU with?

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 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to john arran:

> So the EU has been somehow preventing the UK putting in place better animal welfare measures? If not, how can you be using this as another stick to try to discredit the EU with?

I wasn't. But I used it as an example of consumer double standards, many are quick to throw out the chlorinated chicken phrase, but don't really care about food production much nearer home. About how many people will clean their kitchens and bathrooms with similar chemicals Etc. 

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 john arran 17 Sep 2019
In reply to summo:

> About how many people will clean their kitchens and bathrooms with similar chemicals Etc. 

We're going round in circles now: "The problem is not the chlorine itself "

Cue some tangential diversionary rant about chemical use in general ...

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 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to john arran:

> We're going round in circles now: "The problem is not the chlorine itself "

> Cue some tangential diversionary rant about chemical use in general ...

We are. But people clean their own kitchens because of similar germs, with chemicals that are also being used in the USA food chain. Folk have been conditioned with it, bacterial wipe this and that etc. Put some images of babies in the advert and everyone thinks if they don't deep clean daily they are putting lives at risk. 

I don't use either. Soap and hot water gets rid of most stuff and the chemicals are not good for the septic tank / soak away anyway. 

Edit. I don't see how you can separate the use of what is often the same chemicals. Plus the fact that European chicken and other meats are equally contaminated. 

Post edited at 13:21
 john arran 17 Sep 2019
In reply to summo:

> Edit. I don't see how you can separate the use of what is often the same chemicals. Plus the fact that European chicken and other meats are equally contaminated. 

We're going round in circles now: "The problem is not the chlorine itself "

(we could be here for some time...)

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 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to john arran:

> We're going round in circles now: "The problem is not the chlorine itself "

> (we could be here for some time...)

Indeed. My gripe was or is with CAP. I'll leave the USA to eat that they like! 

 jimtitt 17 Sep 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

It's like nobody remembers the Farm Price Review (the huge and crap subsidy system we had before the Common Market).

 john arran 17 Sep 2019
In reply to summo:

CAP isn't stopping the UK from introducing stricter policies. I presume you think this should be an area where the UK devolves sovereignty to the EU by way of agreeing stricter EU-wide regulations that the UK would no longer be at liberty to ignore?

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 Bob Kemp 17 Sep 2019
In reply to birdie num num:

> It’s a bit of a stretch though to link Johnson’s activities to how global subsidies to agriculture are directed don't you think? 

> Regardless of the prancing and grubbing you describe.

> Your balance is clouded, as always by your hatred, and again, you come across as ridiculous.

Why is it a bit of a stretch? 

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/boris-johnson-announces-extra-fundin...

 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to john arran:

> CAP isn't stopping the UK from introducing stricter policies. I presume you think this should be an area where the UK devolves sovereignty to the EU by way of agreeing stricter EU-wide regulations that the UK would no longer be at liberty to ignore?

Or it could go the Norway route and exclude food or drink from the trade agreement. It supports farmers with its own schemes, has one of the lowest antibiotic use in the eu and still exports some specific foods into the eu because their product and welfare standards exceed the eu minimum. 

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 Dave Garnett 17 Sep 2019
In reply to John2:

> The French are in love with the idea of 'la France profonde' - the deeply rural areas in which a few cattle roam around picturesque Alpine meadows with bells round their necks.

I'm quite fond of it myself!

 John2 17 Sep 2019
In reply to Dave Garnett:

There's no disputing the quality of Beaufort été.

 The New NickB 17 Sep 2019
In reply to tspoon1981:

£30k an acre for greenfield residential land is daylight robbery. Even in some of the poorest parts of the U.K. I would expect £200k and in some areas many multiples of that.

 jimtitt 17 Sep 2019


 In reply to summo:

> Or it could go the Norway route and exclude food or drink from the trade agreement. It supports farmers with its own schemes, has one of the lowest antibiotic use in the eu and still exports some specific foods into the eu because their product and welfare standards exceed the eu minimum. 


What can one say apart from fish? They also subsidise their agriculture more then the EU, subsidise their food processors and prevent imports from the EU by imposing tariffs and technical restrictions.

 jimtitt 17 Sep 2019
In reply to The New NickB:

> £30k an acre for greenfield residential land is daylight robbery. Even in some of the poorest parts of the U.K. I would expect £200k and in some areas many multiples of that.

Where I live in Bavaria the average price for  farmland is €72,000 per acre! Building land €4,000,000 an acre.

 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

>  In reply to summo:

> What can one say apart from fish? They also subsidise their agriculture more then the EU, subsidise their food processors and prevent imports from the EU by imposing tariffs and technical restrictions.

Critical difference, they subsidise good healthy high welfare farming practices that produce food, not subsidise land ownership. The eu welfare standards, housing rules or regulations on antibiotic use aren't that high, so it's pretty easy to better them, Norway just expects goods entering to meet their standards not lower eu levels.  

I'll happily eat Norwegian meat, but I wouldn't touch Danish for example, their antibiotic use is too high. 

 John2 17 Sep 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

Indeed. One of my skiing chums is a property developer who (several decades ago) was the first person to pay £1,000,000 an acre for building land in Belfast.

 tspoon1981 17 Sep 2019
In reply to The New NickB:

I'm guessing you live in a slightly more urban neighborhood than I do, theres a 26 acre development site just up the road from me that's offers over £70k. Having looked at land values, I can see that the South East and some more urban parts of the UK might achieve the figures you've put forward, unfortunately the prices outwith commuter towns near here don't fetch the same kinds of prices.

 john arran 17 Sep 2019
In reply to summo:

> I'll happily eat Norwegian meat, but I wouldn't touch Danish for example, their antibiotic use is too high. 

So is it CAP that's preventing the Danes from implementing stricter limits (knowing they could still export to the rEU because they meet or exceed EU minima)? or could it possibly that it has little or nothing to do with the EU and Danish bacon is in fact a red herring?

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 summo 17 Sep 2019
In reply to john arran:

> So is it CAP that's preventing the Danes from implementing stricter limits (knowing they could still export to the rEU because they meet or exceed EU minima)? or could it possibly that it has little or nothing to do with the EU and Danish bacon is in fact a red herring?

Nothing to do with cap. Eu regs aren't very high, so even intensive Danish stock rearing methods fit within them. The Danes could of course increase standards, but then that would increase costs. As long as there is demand and a market for cheap meat there is no pressure for them to improve. 

Not sure on the red herring element. CAP standards for animal welfare aren't that high, environmental standards are just a little side show, most funds go to purely land ownership.  There is no red herring.

Not eating Danish meat is just my personal choice. I'd rather just eat less meat and pay a bit more for it. The further south in Europe you go, the antibiotic use just goes up and up. You reach the point where Cyprus uses ten times the amount as the UK for example. It's little wonder we are lining ourselves up for massive problems fighting very basic infections in the future. 

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 The New NickB 17 Sep 2019
In reply to tspoon1981:

£3k an acre is scrub grazing land values, that is probably low. Where do you live? A “development site” suggests a reasonable prospect of residential permission, sounds like the bargain of the century.

My valuer at work has put an estimate of £300k an acre on four acres of land that I am going to take to market soon. This is in a relatively poor town with property values well below the national average.

I would expect values in the more affluent parts of the South East to be over £1m per acre with residential permission, but I don’t know the land market in those areas well enough put put an accurate figure on it.

 Yanis Nayu 17 Sep 2019
In reply to john arran:

UK chicken is riddled with campylobacter though. I’m not sure our standards are any better. I would like to be proven wrong. 

 john arran 18 Sep 2019
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Although I can't provide references, I remember reading that the incidence of gastroenterisis in the UK is around 1 in 15 people per year whereas in the US it's around 1 in 6.

Given that we still allow many horrific factory farming practices, we really should be looking to improve those rates rather than distancing ourselves from even the EU minimal standards in response to US trade muscle.

 Ian W 18 Sep 2019
In reply to john arran:

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/17/8/10-1533_article

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/gastrointestinal-infections-guida...

Its about 1 in 5 per year in the uk, and 1 in 2  (!!?) in the US. At least according to these 2 articles. I dont have the medical knowledge to know if they are comparing apples and apples or apples and pears, maybe someone else can confirm?


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