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Cummings

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 Heike 19:46 Sat

I know there is another thread, but I feel so strongly about this, I thought I would start another one. I live in Scotland, where we are now 9 weeks into lockdown with (not a lot of end in sight). We have religiously stuck to  it. We live at the foot of the Ochils in Perthshire, but we never even ventured into them because of the recommendations and of course we have never climbed at all (never laid hand on a hold). We have been walking and cycling from the house and only one member of the family, i.e. me has gone to the shops, as my husband is slightly compromised and the other member is my 10 year old. Otherwise we have not left the house.

To read how the people in charge in this country disregard the rules and reinterpret for themselves is absolutely galling. I can't even express my disdain without going to expletives. I think British voters should really think very carefully about for whom they would be voting next time.

Post edited at 20:07
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 Le Sapeur 19:51 Sat
In reply to Heike:

Well it won't be the SNP after the Catherine Calderwood debacle.

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 Trevers 19:52 Sat
In reply to Heike:

Hopefully he will be forced into resigning/being sacked, and with any luck he will take with him some of the spineless shits in the cabinet defending him.

I don't hold out much hope for the political judgement of the British (English), but I think they know an appalling hypocrite when they see one.

Post edited at 19:58
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 65 19:52 Sat
In reply to Heike:

I try to avoid these forums for anything other than info sharing but a 'like' would feel an inadequate expression of how much I am with you this. 450% as P. Patel might say.

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 Le Sapeur 19:53 Sat
In reply to Heike:

Or the Labour MP Tahir Ali. 

Who's left?

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In reply to Heike:

Yeah, it's just infuriating that politicians don't seem to respect the rules we stick to. 

The irony is that I can't even vote in most elections after living here for 8 years since I am not a UK citizen. 

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In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Well it won't be the SNP after the Catherine Calderwood debacle.

Why? She was not an SNP appointment or representative.

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In reply to Le Sapeur:

Please explain exactly what Tahir Ali, or even Stephen Kinnock, has/have done and then explain where the PM and his Ministers have covered up for them and where either Ali's or Kinnock's wfie has written an article for the Spectator where a totally different version of events has been portrayed.

I won't hold my breath.

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In reply to Heike:

It's not even really about Cummings now.

He did something quite clearly very wrong - much worse than Catherine Calderwood (who at least wasn't confirmed exposed to covid-19 when she went on her jaunts, and who resigned the very next day after it came out), and much much worse than Neil Ferguson (who didn't even go on a jaunt, and still resigned).

But the cabinet ministers, the Attorney General for England and Wales, and a selection of MPs, have lined up to say that he didn't do anything wrong! They are completely and utterly undermining the lockdown and the law. There will be enormous numbers of people now deciding they are no longer going to follow government advice - and if we need a second lockdown later, it's hard to see it working without serious enforcement.

Post edited at 20:20
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 Trevers 20:23 Sat
In reply to skog:

> But the cabinet ministers, the Attorney General for England and Wales, and a selection of MPs, have lined up to say that he didn't do anything wrong! They are completely and utterly undermining the lockdown and the law. There will be enormous numbers of people now deciding they are no longer going to follow government advice - and if we need a second lockdown later, it's hard to see it working without serious enforcement.

It's quite incredible how they have all scrambled to protect him, throwing away the last shred of legal or moral authority in the process. It's almost as though he surgically installed an explosive device in their skulls and he has the red button.

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In reply to Trevers:

> It's almost as though he surgically installed an explosive device in their skulls and he has the red button.

Here's a thought. Maybe the ones to defend him have been breaking the rules and can't do anything else?

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In reply to Heike:

> I think British voters should really think very carefully about for whom they would be voting next time.

I am absolutely f*cking furious, and I'm in no mood to wait for another election. This bunch of pricks failed the test. We need to chuck them out.

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In reply to Trevers:

> It's quite incredible how they have all scrambled to protect him, throwing away the last shred of legal or moral authority in the process. It's almost as though he surgically installed an explosive device in their skulls and he has the red button.

It's f*cking brilliant. The press saved some of the juicy bits for after the briefing! 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/dominic-cummings-ignored-coronavirus-lockdown-22075857

Caught with pants down. Now f*ck off!

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In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I am absolutely f*cking furious, and I'm in no mood to wait for another election. This bunch of pricks failed the test. We need to chuck them out.

Yes, but without something absolutely seismic happening, it is almost impossible to see how that can happen.

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 Trevers 20:30 Sat
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I am absolutely f*cking furious, and I'm in no mood to wait for another election. This bunch of pricks failed the test. We need to chuck them out.

Amen to that. F*ck this government. Bunch of nasty, cowardly, moronic shits, the lot of them.

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In reply to PPP:

> Here's a thought. Maybe the ones to defend him have been breaking the rules and can't do anything else?

Certainly makes you wonder what Cummings has on some of them.

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In reply to Robert Durran:

As I said on the other thread, we're hours away from finding out that Boris knew about all this, and instructed his cabinet to lie to the nation. Because he's a spineless c^nt. 

There must be a limit to what we can put up with.

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In reply to Jon Stewart:

I don't think we're anywhere close. 

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 65 20:39 Sat
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I wish I disagreed with you.

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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

We live in the country where the PRIME MINISTER and half the f*cking cabinet caught the virus THEMSELVES! Does that not strike you as comically ridiculous? If it wasn't for Trump, we would be the laughing stock of the world.

I'm ashamed to be British right now. If it's only me that's absolutely f*cking furious then fine, but Christ, is that honestly what people put up with? Being lied to when the facts are right in front of our noses? This is the breakdown of democracy.

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In reply to Jon Stewart:

It was worse - a few months ago we still had Corbyn as the opposition. 

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 Trevers 21:04 Sat
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> As I said on the other thread, we're hours away from finding out that Boris knew about all this, and instructed his cabinet to lie to the nation. Because he's a spineless c^nt. 

To be honest I doubt it. Johnson makes a point of deliberately knowing as little as possible so his denials can't be construed as deliberate lies. He probably crossed his fingers behind his back while taking his marriage vows.

Post edited at 21:05
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> It was worse - a few months ago we still had Corbyn as the opposition. 

It wasn't worse. We didn't have hundred of people dying every day because the government wasn't capable of managing a well-known risk.

In terms of political change, things are far better with Starmer, but I'm not bothered about who's in government so long as a group of adults can come in and get a f*cking grip and drag us out of this mire. We don't know what we're doing - we think that the issue is quarantining foreigners, when half the country is already infected. It's falling apart. 

It's a crisis, and it needs someone in charge who is capable. I don't care who it is.

Edit: UKC keeps crashing...if only it was because I'm agitating for overthrow of the government!

Post edited at 21:09
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In reply to Trevers:

> To be honest I doubt it. Johnson makes a point of deliberately knowing as little as possible so his denials can't be construed as deliberate lies. He probably crossed his fingers behind his back while taking his marriage vows.

I think there are some journalists out there harbouring exactly the level of rage I feel, and who've got a lot more tools in their box to act on it. The bank holiday weekend should prove interesting...but realistically, it probably won't. Because as a nation, we appear to be both thick and weak in equal measure - a flock of turkeys voting for christmas each and every year. 

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 dread-i 21:32 Sat
In reply to skog:

>But the cabinet ministers, the Attorney General for England and Wales, and a selection of MPs, have lined up to say that he didn't do anything wrong!

To be fair to them, they also lined up to say the Russians didn't influence the UK political process. And no, we can't see the report.

I do think that there is one rule for them and another for us. They always look so outraged, when they are held accountable to the standards of us little people.

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 nawface 23:16 Sat
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I'm struggling as well but democracy broke down in this country before this.  

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 Trevers 23:17 Sat
In reply to nawface:

> I'm struggling as well but democracy broke down in this country before this.  

Cummings and Johnson being some of the prime movers of its ruin.

Post edited at 23:22
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 Trevers 23:25 Sat
In reply to skog:

> Certainly makes you wonder what Cummings has on some of them.

It's utterly tragic, pathetic. To witness cabinet members rallying around with the most tawdry arguments in defence, risking their careers for somebody who thinks they're a bunch of useless bastards and would not lift a finger in their defence. I almost feel sorry for them.

It's like they're all cuckold. In fact, come to think of it, they're all a bunch of submissives and he's their Dom.

Post edited at 23:41
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In reply to Jon Stewart:

> We live in the country where the PRIME MINISTER and half the f*cking cabinet caught the virus THEMSELVES! Does that not strike you as comically ridiculous? If it wasn't for Trump, we would be the laughing stock of the world.

Probably unpopular opinion, but I am not surprised that politicians are catching the virus. Apart from confirmation bias, they are probably still meeting and interacting with more people than most of us.

As to why they are not adopting to remote-first approach, with parliament still open and daily briefings having press in early days and still being conducted non-remotely... I don't know. Not pretending it's life as usual might have sent a stronger message to the people. 

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 Trevers 23:53 Sat
In reply to PPP:

> Probably unpopular opinion, but I am not surprised that politicians are catching the virus. Apart from confirmation bias, they are probably still meeting and interacting with more people than most of us.

Not controversial at all. Certainly not as unpopular as some of the opinions I have about all of this ;) (Although I reckon after today, my personal opinions may be rather less unpopular than they were yesterday.)

> As to why they are not adopting to remote-first approach, with parliament still open and daily briefings having press in early days and still being conducted non-remotely... I don't know. Not pretending it's life as usual might have sent a stronger message to the people. 

It's because they don't give two shits about their responsibility, or the thousands of people who have died as a result of their inaction. Which is why I regard their (alleged) serious illness as acts of hubris, and personally wouldn't have given two shits if either of the bastards had popped their undersized clogs.

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 Toccata 23:58 Sat
In reply to dread-i:

> I do think that there is one rule for them and another for us. They always look so outraged, when they are held accountable to the standards of us little people

 

Very true. I had a consultation with an extremely well off client yesterday. He made some noise about my lack of full PPE in his presence (he was offered it but declined). As history taking wore on it transpired over 200 non-resident people had stayed in his estate in the last month (this was relevant to his condition). No concerns regarding the law as ‘the Police do not have access to the grounds’. This virus will entrench one rule for us and one for them.

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 The Lemming 06:49 Sun
In reply to Heike:

If Cummings survives this weekend, then he will never leave until Boris stops being PM.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/witnesses-cast-doubt-dominic-cummingss-183000408.html

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In reply to Jon Stewart:

> There must be a limit to what we can put up with.

If we can put up with > 50,000 deaths we can put up with this.

The Tories know they have a majority of 80 and are untouchable.   The only thing they need to do to maintain the support of the idiots who voted for them is deliver Brexit.

They'll hold out their five years, lock down everything with treaties to turn the UK into a satellite state of the US like their donors want and hope that by then people have forgotten everything they screwed up.  If not they'll put in a new leader six months before the election and say they've changed.

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 Tringa 08:03 Sun
In reply to Heike:

I agree the voters should think carefully about who they vote for next time after the performance of this shower, but unfortunately the next election, barring something politically catastrophic, isn't until 2024 and the mess this lot have made of it and the actions of individuals will be forgotten/swept under the carpet.

I bet Boris and friends are thanking their lucky stars there isn't an election this year.

Dave

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 wintertree 09:02 Sun
In reply to Toccata:

>  over 200 non-resident people had stayed in his estate in the last month (this was relevant to his condition)

Where do you even find 200 seamstresses?

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In reply to Heike:

The trouble is that there's a massive tranche of opinion which decries all criticism in this time of crisis. We should all be pulling together, not criticising the Government, who are doing their best for us. If you don't like it go and live in North Korea, sort of thing. 

The rage on UKC seems close to unanimous but outside that's not so. Maybe this cummings farce will be a brick out of the wall but it's going to be a long five years. 

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In reply to Pete Pozman:

At a guess, Johnson has serious issues in his private life. Government isn't going very well at the moment but incredibly, it's going to get a whole lot worse as we crash into a no-deal Brexit with all the implications for food supply, N Ireland, security that haven't gone away.

It's not the 5 year PR stunt and opportunity to do some serious sh*gging that he was no doubt hoping for. I wouldn't be surprised to see retirement on I'll health grounds before the year end, and then what?

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 bpmclimb 11:07 Sun
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Well it won't be the SNP after the Catherine Calderwood debacle.

What a silly thing to say! Calderwood was merely an advisor, not an elected representative of that party - let alone second in command. 

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In reply to bpmclimb:

Second in command? Has Boris been caught breaking lockdown rules or something?

jcm

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Pan Ron 12:01 Sun
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> The only thing they need to do to maintain the support of the idiots who voted for them is deliver Brexit.

Those "idiots" (deplorables perhaps?) are greater in number than those who will vote Labour.  So what do you propose?

I know this suggestion will fall on deaf ears but, if you want those idiots to switch sides, you'll need your side to become a bit more attractive to them.  

So what are you willing to do?  Where are you willing to bend your non-Tory policies?  What are you willing to give up?  Which standpoints?  What concessions are you willing to make to acknowledge that these idiots are right about things you are maybe wrong about yourself?  Rather than charging headlong ever further left-ward in your viewpoints, would you be willing to pause and acknowledge a few conservative/moderate viewpoints?

Or do you really expect large numbers of people, caught between lying Tories and a mass of people like yourself who dismiss them as idiots, to decide the later are a more appealing bloc to hand power to?

The Cummings issue should be an open door for the Left.  Instead, your spite is firmly shutting it.

Post edited at 12:01
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 fred99 12:08 Sun
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Yes, but without something absolutely seismic happening, it is almost impossible to see how that can happen.


The Tory MP's who want him out could threaten to cross over to the Opposition benches.

There are a number of them from the rural constituencies which are complaining about ordinary people risking transferring the infection by "touristing", so they'd be getting brownie points from their own supporters.

Even Tory MP Brexiteers are demanding his removal.

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 fred99 12:13 Sun
In reply to Pan Ron:

> I know this suggestion will fall on deaf ears but, if you want those idiots to switch sides, you'll need your side to become a bit more attractive to them.  

Well Kier Starmer is now in post, so that job's already done.

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In reply to fred99:

> The Tory MP's who want him out could threaten to cross over to the Opposition benches.

> Even Tory MP Brexiteers are demanding his removal.

I don't think we're talking about the same person being removed!

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In reply to Pan Ron:

> The Cummings issue should be an open door for the Left.  Instead, your spite is firmly shutting it.

I think you need to judge how Starmer handles this, not get upset about vitriol on UKC. There is no Labour campaign on here to win the support of the Brexit thickies. That's not what this forum is about. Kier Starmer has got to try to do that, so let's see how he does, right?

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 Graeme G 12:15 Sun
In reply to Pan Ron:

> So what are you willing to do?  Where are you willing to bend your non-Tory policies?  What are you willing to give up?  Which standpoints?  What concessions are you willing to make to acknowledge that these idiots are right about things you are maybe wrong about yourself?  Rather than charging headlong ever further left-ward in your viewpoints, would you be willing to pause and acknowledge a few conservative/moderate viewpoints

You do know Tom is a very vocal supporter of Scottish independence? He, like many of my friends need only do one thing, stick an X next to SNP next year. 2021 is going to be another very interesting year in UK politics.

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 Bob Kemp 12:51 Sun
In reply to Pan Ron:

> The Cummings issue should be an open door for the Left.  Instead, your spite is firmly shutting it.

Who knew Tom had such huge political clout? 
 

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Pan Ron 13:31 Sun
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Very disingenuous of you.  You know exactly what I'm referring to.

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 Bob Kemp 14:02 Sun
In reply to Pan Ron:

OK, as gentle satire appears to be a problem for you, can I point out that this was a claim based on no evidence at all?

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Pan Ron 14:38 Sun
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Speaking of comedy: 

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1264525948545904640

This is somewhat my point.  Calling for scalps, claiming moral high grounds, yet seemingly lacking in self-awareness for how this looks to the mass of the population disinterested in the political-media wankfest.  And I'm not referring to DC.

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 kipper12 14:44 Sun
In reply to Heike:

I’m not defending the actions of this idiot, clearly he has cocked up spectacularly and should walk the plank into shark infested waters.

However, if he has broken the English law in respect of lockdown, then it is for the police to investigate, and if sufficient evidence he should be charged and then tried as appropriate.
The former chief constable of Manchester on the TV today basically said the law and associated guidance was at best unclear.

It is this lack of clarity which has allowed his supporters to line up and argue he did nothing wrong.  This is not for the media, UKC or other barrack room lawyers to decide.  If indeed there is a grey area this can only be clarified through the courts  this  is the our system works, or not.

I think he is a card carrying tool, who if he had any common sense or decency he would do the decent thing.

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In reply to kipper12:

> It is this lack of clarity which has allowed his supporters to line up and argue he did nothing wrong.

I really think they've made the wrong call. People are disgusted that while they did the right thing and denied themselves opportunities to spend final days with parents and so forth (which I hope we hear more and more of in the media), Cummings was doing as he pleased, sticking two fingers up to all of us.

No one could possibly be convinced by the lying and squirming of the government in his defence. It's insulting, and it inspires not just mistrust, but outright hatred. The longer they stand behind him, the further their own credibility and popularity will plummet.

I'm all for it - carry on defending #DurhamDom, I want to see them crash and burn.

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In reply to Pan Ron:

Can you clarify your objection the journalists there? There were asking questions about why he didn't follow the rules he in part set - holding thise in power to account . That's what journalists are meant to do. 

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 Bob Kemp 15:25 Sun
In reply to Pan Ron:

> Speaking of comedy: 

> This is somewhat my point.  Calling for scalps, claiming moral high grounds, yet seemingly lacking in self-awareness for how this looks to the mass of the population disinterested in the political-media wankfest.  And I'm not referring to DC.

You are making claims about what the majority of the population think on the basis of absolutely no evidence at all. I suspect you may find that more of the population are very annoyed about Cummings' actions than you think. And I'm not sure why you find the spectacle of journalists actually attempting to hold people with power to account comedic. 

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In reply to Pan Ron:

I don't think you're quite as good understanding the mood of the nation as you think you are. A couple of weeks ago, according to you, we were all just spouting reflex anti-tory bollocks about the lack of clarity in Johnson's revised lockdown message.

And our survey said?

Please forgive me if every time you profess to know what "the people" think, I assume you're just making it up and you're completely wrong again.

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 Blunderbuss 16:21 Sun
In reply to Heike:

Boris to do the briefing.... 

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 Bob Kemp 16:24 Sun
In reply to Blunderbuss:

Wow! They got him out of bed at the weekend?

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In reply to Bob Kemp:

> Wow! They got him out of bed at the weekend?

and got him out of chequers!

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 Lankyman 17:09 Sun
In reply to Blunderbuss:

> Boris to do the briefing.... 


And he's just denied the whole Cummings thing with a few dismissive sentences at the start of a lot of waffle. I think this will run and run.

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In reply to Lankyman:

> And he's just denied the whole Cummings thing with a few dismissive sentences at the start of a lot of waffle. I think this will run and run.

I don't think Kier Starmer will mind one bit.

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In reply to Jon Stewart:

I must say I am rather enjoying the light this is shining on the tight knit bunch of corrupt liars holding office at the moment. 

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 kipper12 17:23 Sun
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I’m not defending him at all, I would prefer he was investigated, and if appropriate prosecuted. This is the correct way to do things.

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 baron 17:25 Sun
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I don't think Kier Starmer will mind one bit.

You’ll get shouted at for spelling Keir wrong.

Don’t ask me how I know.

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In reply to baron:

That happens with all those Gaelic names (like mine) where "I before E except after C" doesn't work.

If he actually cares that much, that would suggest some deep-down insecurity!

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In reply to Heike:

I think cunnings may have lost his touch. This episode damages him. The tories don't like him anyway so the scandal might well embolden them to stand up to him. If a headmaster were caught coming out of a brothel he would find it very hard to set targets for his staff. And the kids would guffaw whenever he started exhorting them to be good citizens. 

Post edited at 17:28
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In reply to Heike:

I often disagree with policies that various political parties have had over the years. But somehow this has pissed me off more than any of them, after all we all have political opinions and clearly we're not going to agree on lots.

There's been a few others visiting second homes and sitting on the end of parent's driveways but not people travelling around with symptoms. 

His excuse is utterly shameful. I cannot believe they took a 4 year child on a 5 hour journey without stopping at services, they could have broken down or been in an accident. And the idea that someone should look after a child who would almost certainly have the virus unless it was an absolute emergency is beyond any sane person's thinking. 

If they had both become too seriously ill, which they clearly weren't at the time if driving 250 miles, I can't believe no one could have stepped in from London.

And what does he think other people would do in that situation? If there is no mechanism in place to get children to a family member if both parents are severely ill, why not? And why doesn't he convince this tory government to do something about it instead of putting numerous people's lives in danger just so that his childcare becomes a bit easier.

I could go on but I don't want my blood pressure to go up any further. 

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 abr1966 17:36 Sun
In reply to Pete Pozman:

All good points....except for some people who don't have a conscience, have a narcissistic sense of entitlement, no shame but lots of contempt and do not perceive anyone elses views of them as relevant.

There are plenty around....some do well in organisations, others are in prison or special hospitals....sociopaths.

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 HakanT 17:45 Sun
In reply to Heike:

How was the briefing? I had to leave the room when Boris started talking about what responsible parents do. The dissonance was  too much to handle.

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In reply to Pete Pozman:

I hope you're not speaking from experience Pete! 

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In reply to baron:

> You’ll get shouted at for spelling Keir wrong.

Is my way some kind of girly drink? 

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In reply to HakanT:

' I had to leave the room when Boris started talking about what responsible parents do. The dissonance was  too much to handle.'

You do have to have a strong stomach.

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 Lankyman 18:10 Sun
In reply to HakanT:

> How was the briefing? I had to leave the room when Boris started talking about what responsible parents do. The dissonance was  too much to handle.


Me too. I stuck it for half an hour. After the nth fobbing off of a journalist I gave in. My teeth are bad enough without extra grinding.

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 baron 18:13 Sun
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Is my way some kind of girly drink? 

Now you’re in serious trouble for being sexist!  

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 alastairmac 18:14 Sun
In reply to Heike:

Boris Johnson doing his bit for Scottish independence!

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 MargieB 18:18 Sun
In reply to Heike:

Cummings did exactly in Durham as he would have done in London and so should have stayed in London.{ lockdown with his child, as many others did} If he and his wife became so incapable, his sister could have travelled to London to pick up his child and take him back for care. That would have involved no travelling with active coronavirus symptoms and  shown a greater sense of social responsibility. Boris, I'm afraid if it were me I would have made him resign since you ask for public opinion. 

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 kipper12 18:28 Sun
In reply to MargieB:

Except if the child was carrying the virus, but asymptomatic, the risk would have probably similar.  

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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> I hope you're not speaking from experience Pete! 

Well I wasn't seen, which is more important. And I could never be bothered asking others to meet targets. It would've been too hypocritical as I never met one in my life. 

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In reply to MargieB:

> Boris, I'm afraid if it were me I would have made him resign since you ask for public opinion. 

Our democracy has clearly been perverted to the point where the PM no longer has the power to sack his chief adviser, who now holds the puppet strings. Dunno about anyone else, but I can't hear myself think over the sound of the alarm bells.

Post edited at 21:01
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 toad 21:05 Sun
In reply to Heike:

If he had been pulled over by the plod, how would that have played out? Genuine question. Would the coppers have got within 2m to interview him? If he had infected them, how many people would they infect before showing symptoms?

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In reply to toad:

I'm expecting the magistrates courts to be full in October with people disputing their lockdown breach fines with the "Cummings defence".

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In reply to PPP:

> Here's a thought. Maybe the ones to defend him have been breaking the rules and can't do anything else?

Yep.   Cummings knows the dirt on all of them.   He's only there for the power to pursue his own agenda not for a long term career inside the Tory party.   Unlike a Tory MP who would be quiet and bide their time he's got nothing to lose by f*cking them over if they push him out.

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 MargieB 22:17 Sun
In reply to kipper12

But that situation of crisis was not actually reached, they pre-empted it and presented  a transmission risk unnecessarily by travelling. They must have stopped off somewhere on that journey of 260 miles. It would have been acceptable to endorse a risky movement of the child when a crisis was reached, not before. We could all act in anticipation of a crisis and be spreading the virus around unnecessarily. 

I think his judgement was in error and yet he doesn't apologise and people have resigned for less prudent ill judged actions, especially people at the heart of government. Boris asked for our understanding but I simply see unapologetic arrogance and a poor precedent for us, I'm afraid and Boris should think of championing a greater social example : they were in the disease and infectious.

And a question about another trip out was skirted - Yes  or no would have sufficed. Another trip out is important as it exposes the attitude to the lockdown, if it had occurred. It should really be answered.

Post edited at 22:34
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In reply to Jon Stewart:

Have you seen what those cuck leftie remoaner snowflakes at the Daily Mail are saying, now?

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1264660059222573057

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In reply to skog:

When will those dreadful screeching lefties listen to what the calm reasonable, rational, honest, sensible people at the Dail mail have been saying all along?

Hilarious! 

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In reply to Jon Stewart:

> PM no longer has the power to sack his chief adviser, who now holds the puppet strings

So who is pulling Cummings' strings...?

Ironic that he masterminded a Brexit campaign, one strand of which was 'unelected bureaucrats'. Whereas we now seem to be ruled by a genuinely unelected, unaccountable autocrat.

Well, maybe he is accountable to someone, but it's not the British public. It may not even be anyone British...

Post edited at 23:44
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 wintertree 23:39 Sun
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Yep.   Cummings knows the dirt on all of them.   He's only there for the power to pursue his own agenda

Do you really think it’s his agenda? 

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 Baz P 00:22 Mon
In reply to Heike:

I really don’t give a crap about what Cummings has done. If it was wrong why don’t they just give him the £60 fine like they have everyone else.

What amuses me Is that all the seemingly serious questions about PPE, care homes and how to keep us all from dying have all been trumped by a bloke driving up north.

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In reply to Baz P:

> I really don’t give a crap about what Cummings has done. If it was wrong why don’t they just give him the £60 fine like they have everyone else.

The way I see it going out when you shouldn't but you have no reason to think you have CoVid is something where a 60 quid fine is reasonable.  Breaking quarantine when you are pretty sure you have got it and driving to a completely different part of the country where there is nothing like as much infection is way more serious.  Your action could result in deaths.

Post edited at 03:17
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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> .............Breaking quarantine when you are pretty sure you have got it and driving to a completely different part of the country where there is nothing like as much infection is way more serious.  Your action could result in deaths.

Absolutely right, Tom. It is "way more serious"

I'll add that the contempt in which our rulers / leaders hold us (the mass of the public) is now crystal clear - since yesterday, Sunday - it was shown [1] by Cummings failing to step down, and [2] by Johnson failing to dump Cummings

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 MargieB 08:39 Mon
In reply to Heike:

What surprised me about Johnson is that it never seemed to occur to him that he was undercutting the medical officer standing next to him and all that man's moral authority that he has built up over the weeks.

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 wercat 09:17 Mon
In reply to Heike:

it occurs to me that what this reveals about the chief advisor to the PM (bless his tiny plastic hands) is that he might know about being a political advisor on "getting the message through", though not as understood by the motto "certa cito" as his messages are corrupt, but that he has absolutely no idea about how to behave during a pandemic.  Excuses have been made relating to guidance to the generl public but he was not such.  He was a man who had contact with live cases and his wife had symptoms.  That placed him in a category to whom a very clear rule without any discretion at all applied "You MUST Self Isolate".  The lawful excuses for going out were a separate set of rules for those who were not in that category.

So we have a chief advisor who has ZERO understanding either of how to control spread during a pandemic and who cannot be trusted to adhere to a clear and unambiguous instruction to self-isolate, or how to behave for the good of others, which does not include travelling from one region to another as part of an infected group.

We are deep in shit to have this lot in charge and even deeper in shit for tolerating it

Post edited at 09:30
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 bpmclimb 09:31 Mon
In reply to Baz P:

> I really don’t give a crap about what Cummings has done. If it was wrong why don’t they just give him the £60 fine like they have everyone else.

> What amuses me Is that all the seemingly serious questions about PPE, care homes and how to keep us all from dying have all been trumped by a bloke driving up north.

You might as well argue that a case of a Chief Constable caught shoplifting is no more serious than if anyone else did it!

The idea that with extra power and influence comes extra responsibility is pretty commonplace - if you genuinely don't hold with that, I think you must be one of the very few.

Post edited at 09:34
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In reply to Baz P:

> I really don’t give a crap about what Cummings has done. If it was wrong why don’t they just give him the £60 fine like they have everyone else.

> What amuses me Is that all the seemingly serious questions about PPE, care homes and how to keep us all from dying have all been trumped by a bloke driving up north.

I don't think you've understood the implications very well. 

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Pan Ron 11:18 Mon
In reply to bpmclimb:

> You might as well argue that a case of a Chief Constable caught shoplifting is no more serious than if anyone else did it!

No, it's more akin to a Cheif Constable caught doing 85mph on the motorway.

> The idea that with extra power and influence comes extra responsibility is pretty commonplace - if you genuinely don't hold with that, I think you must be one of the very few.

It is.  But you can't get away from the elephant in the room that the majority of people want to see the back of Cummings because he brought us Brexit.  Which then leaves an entirely different, and likely more numerous bunch of people, thinking your motives for claiming all this are less than honest.

The detractors of Boris and Cummings have been crying wolf for too long.  Credibility is shot to sh1t so even when you have something pretty damning its not taken seriously.  

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In reply to Pan Ron:

> It is.  But you can't get away from the elephant in the room that the majority of people want to see the back of Cummings because he brought us Brexit. 

The headline on the front page of the Daily Mail reads 'What planet are they on?', with an opinion piece saying 'For the good of the Government and the nation, Mr Cummings must resign. Or the Prime Minister must sack him. No ifs, no buts.'

The Daily Mail was, you may remember, one of the leading voices in favour of Brexit. That such a newspaper is now calling for the removal of Cummings suggests to me that your assertion is some way wide of the mark. This goes a very long way beyond any residual Brexit hangover. 

Post edited at 11:35
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In reply to Pan Ron:

> The detractors of Boris and Cummings have been crying wolf for too long. 

They have been crying wolf because there actually is a f*cking wolf. Actually a whole f*cking pack of wolves. And now we are f*cked because not enough people listened and the wolves are in control at just the time we least need them to be. 

Post edited at 11:28
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 jkarran 11:44 Mon
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> If we can put up with > 50,000 deaths we can put up with this.

> The Tories know they have a majority of 80 and are untouchable.   The only thing they need to do to maintain the support of the idiots who voted for them is deliver Brexit.

> They'll hold out their five years, lock down everything with treaties to turn the UK into a satellite state of the US like their donors want and hope that by then people have forgotten everything they screwed up.  If not they'll put in a new leader six months before the election and say they've changed.

99% sure this is our future but that was near as damnit 100% before they bungled CV needlessly killing tens of thousands of us then squandered their popularity on coverups. An opportunity presents itself. 

Jk

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In reply to Pan Ron:

> No, it's more akin to a Cheif Constable caught doing 85mph on the motorway.

Bullshit, if you want a stupid metaphor it's more like the Deputy Chief Constable being caught drunk driving on the way to parents' evening in the middle of a major "don't drink and drive" campaign, then the Chief Constable and most of the other senior officers coming out in defense of him saying it's OK, he was just supporting his kid.

Or something like that.

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 jkarran 11:52 Mon
In reply to Pan Ron:

> Speaking of comedy: 

> This is somewhat my point.  Calling for scalps, claiming moral high grounds, yet seemingly lacking in self-awareness for how this looks to the mass of the population disinterested in the political-media wankfest.  And I'm not referring to DC.

For one so routinely disdainful of others' ability to read and react to the public mood you're misjudging this situation spectacularly! Or deliberately. 

Jk

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 Trevers 12:02 Mon
In reply to Pan Ron:

> It is.  But you can't get away from the elephant in the room that the majority of people want to see the back of Cummings because he brought us Brexit.  Which then leaves an entirely different, and likely more numerous bunch of people, thinking your motives for claiming all this are less than honest.

You're the only person in this thread treating it as Tory vs Labour, right vs left, Brexit vs EU.

> The detractors of Boris and Cummings have been crying wolf for too long.  Credibility is shot to sh1t so even when you have something pretty damning its not taken seriously. 

You are risible.

Post edited at 12:05
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 jkarran 12:05 Mon
In reply to Baz P:

> I really don’t give a crap about what Cummings has done. If it was wrong why don’t they just give him the £60 fine like they have everyone else.

> What amuses me Is that all the seemingly serious questions about PPE, care homes and how to keep us all from dying have all been trumped by a bloke driving up north.

We'll that and apparently single handedly wielding unquestionable power over the British government and public in a time of crisis. A crisis he has mishandled to the tune of tens of thousands choking to death needlessly. But yeah, the road trip.

Jk

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In reply to Baz P:

> I really don’t give a crap about what Cummings has done

Maybe you might want to read what Stephen Reicher has to say. He sits on the panel advising on group psychology; how to keep the public on side...

https://mobile.twitter.com/ReicherStephen

"Be open and honest, we said. Trashed.
Respect the public, we said. Trashed
Ensure equity, so everyone is treated the same, we said. Trashed.
Be consistent we said. Trashed.
Make clear 'we are all in it together'. Trashed."

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 Blunderbuss 12:31 Mon
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> The headline on the front page of the Daily Mail reads 'What planet are they on?', with an opinion piece saying 'For the good of the Government and the nation, Mr Cummings must resign. Or the Prime Minister must sack him. No ifs, no buts.'

> The Daily Mail was, you may remember, one of the leading voices in favour of Brexit. That such a newspaper is now calling for the removal of Cummings suggests to me that your assertion is some way wide of the mark. This goes a very long way beyond any residual Brexit hangover. 

Even The Telegraph is criticising Boris and 68% of it's readers think Cummings should go......but it's all revenge for Brexit.....PMSL!

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 Blunderbuss 13:03 Mon
In reply to Blunderbuss:

Cummings to make a statement and answer questions this afternoon.... 

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 fred99 13:39 Mon
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > PM no longer has the power to sack his chief adviser, who now holds the puppet strings

> So who is pulling Cummings' strings...?

> Ironic that he masterminded a Brexit campaign, one strand of which was 'unelected bureaucrats'. Whereas we now seem to be ruled by a genuinely unelected, unaccountable autocrat.

> Well, maybe he is accountable to someone, but it's not the British public. It may not even be anyone British...


Be careful, you never know where the hitmen are if you dare even whisper the name Vladimir Pu.....

Aaaaaargh !!

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 fred99 13:43 Mon
In reply to Pan Ron:

> No, it's more akin to a Cheif Constable caught doing 85mph on the motorway.

More like 150 !!

And how much respect would you expect such a Chief Constable to have from others afterwards, both personally and for his/her views ?

(There is a precedent for a speeding Chief Constable by the way)

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 fred99 13:46 Mon
In reply to Blunderbuss:

> Cummings to make a statement and answer questions this afternoon.... 


ANSWER questions ?

To quote John Wayne "that'll be the day".

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 Ian W 16:11 Mon
In reply to Pan Ron:

> It is.  But you can't get away from the elephant in the room that the majority of people want to see the back of Cummings because he brought us Brexit.  Which then leaves an entirely different, and likely more numerous bunch of people, thinking your motives for claiming all this are less than honest.

Are you now saying the majority of the country didnt want brexit??? Othwise "most people" would want him to stay because he delivered brexit?

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In reply to Pan Ron:

> The detractors of Boris and Cummings have been crying wolf for too long.  Credibility is shot to sh1t so even when you have something pretty damning its not taken seriously.  

Some people cry wolf when they see a wolf.

Others need to be bitten in the arse before they will accept that it isn't a Labrador.

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 bpmclimb 19:00 Mon
In reply to Pan Ron:

> No, it's more akin to a Cheif Constable caught doing 85mph on the motorway.

You think that's a fair and balanced comparison? Seems completely off the scale to me. 

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 Trevers 19:46 Mon
In reply to Pan Ron:

> No, it's more akin to a Cheif Constable caught doing 85mph on the motorway.

And randomly tossing grenades out the car windows into the opposite lane.

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In reply to Pan Ron:

> The detractors of Boris and Cummings have been crying wolf for too long.  Credibility is shot to sh1t so even when you have something pretty damning its not taken seriously.  

If credibility is "shot to shit", then I would be interested to hear your explanation of why, for the first time in recorded history (correct me if I'm wrong), the PM's Cheif Adviser held an hour long press conference in the garden of number 10. 

I suggest that this is being taken rather seriously, and that, as ever, you have no idea what on earth is going on.

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In reply to Heike:

Just to chuck something else into the mix....

Glaxo has a significant presence in Barnard Castle, coincidence?

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/18400944.glaxosmithkline-barnard-castle-enter-vaccine-collaboration-fight-covid-19/

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 demdyke 07:43 Tue
In reply to skog:

> "[Cummings] did something quite clearly very wrong "

What did he 'clearly' do'very' wrong? 

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In reply to demdyke:

I think that, perhaps, if you put your mind to it, you would be able to answer that yourself.

I may be wrong.

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 Ian W 08:29 Tue
In reply to demdyke:

> What did he 'clearly' do'very' wrong? 

You've kept yourself to yourself fairly effectively the last few days........

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In reply to demdyke:

> What did he 'clearly' do'very' wrong? 

Assuming his story is true (and it isn't):

Went back to No.10 after being with his symptomatic wife: Breach

Left his primary residence instead of quarantined: Breach

Went to beauty spot instead of lockdown: Breach

Stuck child in enclosed environment with symptomatic carrier for five hours: WTF?!

Went for a drive with family in the car with potentially damaged eyesight: Clearly BS, but if true dangerous AF and illegal regardless of COVID

He wrote these rules himself: Rank hypocrisy

His wife wrote article and went on R4 to talk about lockdown in London: Total BS

Ignored requests to confirm Durham journey for 7 weeks: Arrogance

Even on Friday described story as Fake News: More lies

Told press and public it's basically our fault for the bad perception of his actions: Gaslighting arsehole

Misrepresented the lockdown rules just to save his skin: Risks lockdown collapsing and mass deaths

Basically told us who didn't breach regs it's because we didn't follow our natural instincts as parents/children/siblings/friends: Thousands of grieving people told they're stupid, basically

That's for starters, but three clear breaches, including one obvious lie; gaslighting the entire country as to our motives; displayed arrogance and clear sense of exceptionalism from the man whose rules we're all supposed to be following.

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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Nice summary.

I'd add the biggest thing he did wrong - for the kind of person who just doesn't care about other people:

He got caught.

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 neilh 09:09 Tue
In reply to Heike:

I am looking forward to Specsavers ad on the Barneard Catle subject. If ever there was a case for some serious p##staking from advertisers then this is it.

The whole epsidode is both sad and ridiculous. I have more importnat issues to get concerned about  than Cummins.

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 AdrianC 09:13 Tue
 neilh 09:19 Tue
In reply to AdrianC:

Excellent, I await more with amusement.

Post edited at 09:19
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 wercat 09:55 Tue
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

I'm not quite sure of my eyesight at the moment.

Would there be any merit in checking it using the testing facilities at Sligachan - I could be up there in a mere 6-7 hours.

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In reply to Pan Ron:

> But you can't get away from the elephant in the room that the majority of people want to see the back of Cummings because he brought us Brexit. 

Can't help but think you're suffering from Brexit Derangement Syndrome. 

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 neilh 10:17 Tue
In reply to Pan Ron:

Politically you are right. It sadly reflects the polarisation of politics in the U.K.  

Cummins is seen by Bojo’s political adversaries as his enforcer and it would weaken him considerably if Cummins goes. So there is reasonableness in your political view. 

But COVID takes the situation to a whole new level of government/ responsibility. 

That is where it is so out  of kilter. 

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 deepsoup 10:59 Tue
In reply to neilh:

> Politically you are right. It sadly reflects the polarisation of politics in the U.K.  

He's not right. 

It does reflect the 'polarisation of politics', but in precisely the opposite way to what Pan Ron is claiming.  It isn't because of entrenched views on Brexit that Cummings is under fire, it's because of entrenched views on Brexit that there are still some people defending him.

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 neilh 11:34 Tue
In reply to deepsoup:

You make my point exactly. 

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In reply to Heike:

This has just turned up on my facebook feed. Worth a read.

https://www.facebook.com/Staffs4Europe/posts/2858551687601419

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 deepsoup 12:22 Tue
In reply to Rog Wilko:

If you like that, you might also like this:
https://www.facebook.com/anwenkyatic/posts/10158574316219078

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 demdyke 12:22 Tue
In reply to skog:

> I may be wrong.

Hiya. yes and I may be wrong in thinking that it is not clear why Cumming's actions were very wrong. I ask the question in pursuit of clarity. I shall read the other replies to see if the issue becomes clearer to me.

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 demdyke 12:33 Tue
In reply to Ian W:

> You've kept yourself to yourself fairly effectively the last few days........

Not really. I've been doing some cracking walks as well as watching TV.

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In reply to demdyke:

If you've genuinely just been very successfully avoiding the news recently, it's multiple breaches of the lockdown by someone who knew he was a serious infection risk, and who was himself a critical part of the government team putting out the lockdown guidelines and rules.

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 Greenbanks 12:42 Tue
In reply to demdyke:

Well, for a start - modelling of wanted human behaviour is a cornerstone of social psychology. We all do it, and take our lead from key influencers and moments. Cummings's imprint has been all over the UK Corona-response. He is its key influencer - a message put out strongly by HM Govt in his defense. 

Cummings goes driveabout therefore a significant section of the population will model that behaviour (as perhaps suggested by the BH crowds, with more to come as the hot weather persists).

If a company employee had gone so off-message as he's done they'd be out on their ear.

It is a tawdry shambles, highlighted by the way that we can now feel secure in lionising Piers Morgan and the Daily Mail, where onetime we'd run a mile.

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In reply to neilh:

> Politically you are right. It sadly reflects the polarisation of politics in the U.K.  

No, he's very far from right. One of the first MPs (if not the first) to call for Cummings' resignation was Steve baker, leading light in the ERG and long-standing Brexiteer. The Daily Mail, a leading Brexit-supporting newspaper, called for Cummings to resign on its front page yesterday. 

If anything, this episode has crossed political divides like few others in recent years. 

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 mondite 12:55 Tue
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> If anything, this episode has crossed political divides like few others in recent years. 

The erg and cummings have had a long standing mutual hatred though.

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 demdyke 13:06 Tue
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Assuming his story is true (and it isn't):

> Went back to No.10 after being with his symptomatic wife: Breach

Yes, but it was Cummings who told us this. See your first comment to spot the contradiction between that and your second comment.

> Left his primary residence instead of quarantined: Breach

No it isn't a breach. You can leave your residence if a vulnerable person is involved. There was such a person involved.

> Went to beauty spot instead of lockdown: Breach

He went for good medical reasons; remember opticians are all closed so he did a DIY job. Quite sensible and well within the spirit of the rules.

> Stuck child in enclosed environment with symptomatic carrier for five hours: WTF?!

That was his decision, and he is allowed within the rules to make decisions on behalf of a vulnerable person. It may have been silly but it is not in breach of the rules and nor in the circumstance was it clearly wrong. Remember young children are not very vulnerable to covid 19. 

> Went for a drive with family in the car with potentially damaged eyesight: Clearly BS, but if true dangerous AF and illegal regardless of COVID

As I've pointed-out there were no opticians available. His actions were perfectly reasonable. 

> He wrote these rules himself: Rank hypocrisy

He wrote some of the rules which were then brought into law by Parliament. And because he wrote some of the rules he knew what they allowed or disallowed. These rules he followed.

> His wife wrote article and went on R4 to talk about lockdown in London: Total BS

So?

> Ignored requests to confirm Durham journey for 7 weeks: Arrogance

So? Being arrogant is not a breach of the rules.

> Even on Friday described story as Fake News: More lies

He said that various 'versions' of the story were fake news.  

> Told press and public it's basically our fault for the bad perception of his actions: Gaslighting arsehole

I think he's right.

> Misrepresented the lockdown rules just to save his skin: Risks lockdown collapsing and mass deaths

He did not misrepresent anything. He interpreted those rules which the rules allow him to interpret. 

> Basically told us who didn't breach regs it's because we didn't follow our natural instincts as parents/children/siblings/friends: Thousands of grieving people told they're stupid, basically

That's not what he said, or at least, it's not what he was telling me. I would have done the same as he did because I, a member of the public, know what the rules allow. 

> That's for starters, but three clear breaches, including one obvious lie; gaslighting the entire country as to our motives; displayed arrogance and clear sense of exceptionalism from the man whose rules we're all supposed to be following.

He was following the rules, and he interpreted those rules which the rules allow him to interpret.  Good for him. He put the care of a vulnerable person before his own career and reputation. He should get a Knighthood.  

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 Greenbanks 13:12 Tue
In reply to demdyke:

Shameless trolling.

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 mondite 13:20 Tue
In reply to Greenbanks:

> Shameless trolling.

 

I do feel sorry for the plebs who have been ordered out to defend cummings when he cant even be arsed coming up with a sensible excuse for his wifes birthday outing.

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 wercat 13:21 Tue
In reply to demdyke:

> Hiya. yes and I may be wrong in thinking that it is not clear why Cumming's actions were very wrong. I ask the question in pursuit of clarity. I shall read the other replies to see if the issue becomes clearer to me.


Is it not clear to you that the rules for self isolation are different from those aimed at reducing infection in the non-infected population.  For instance there were lawful excuses for being out when not in self-isolation.

However, in self isolation you are not even supposed to go shopping or go out at all, just STAY at Home.  Not carry your known germs to another region of the UK.

This is very Basic Infection/Epidemic control - It was even known by the people of Eyam in the 17th Century for God's sake.  Yet he put his own interests ahead of epidemic control!

If you don't understand that and see why he was totally in the wrong and not acting lawfully, well ....

Post edited at 13:22
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In reply to demdyke:

OK, OK, I'll admit - when I said 'clearly', I forgot to specify Minimum System Requirements...

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 Eric9Points 13:32 Tue
In reply to Heike:

BJ's approval ratings have dropped 20% over the weekend.

Obviously the press conferences were effective.

...for Labour.

https://twitter.com/ChrisHopkins92/status/1265206072794648576?s=09

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 Eric9Points 13:37 Tue
In reply to Heike:

When I first looked at this picture on my phone I missed some of the detail. This morning I looked again more closely and realised it summed up yesterday's circus perfectly. 

Great art.

https://twitter.com/Coldwar_Steve/status/1265050823375159297?s=09

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 neilh 13:37 Tue
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

There is always raw politics underneath these issues whichever   way you look at it.

The Barnard Castle incident is the one I suspect most neutrels will say has sealed his fate.

You would have thought that some form of party discipline would have been imposed so that the top people in Cons, Labour  ,SNP etc were not caught out. Maybe they just forgot to include Cummins.You can now imagine the Cons searching for transgressions on the Labour team......Starmer had better have a tight grip on his key team.

Post edited at 13:38
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In reply to Greenbanks:

> Shameless trolling.

I assumed it was a piss take. The bit about a knighthood pretty much confirmed it. 

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 demdyke 13:42 Tue
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Assuming his story is true (and it isn't):

> Went back to No.10 after being with his symptomatic wife: Breach

See your first reply and compare it with your second, then spot the contradiction.

> Left his primary residence instead of quarantined: Breach

The rules allow for a different course of action if there is a vulnerable person involved, which there was. 

> Went to beauty spot instead of lockdown: Breach

Beauty spot or not; the rules allow(ed) such a thing for exercise. 

> Stuck child in enclosed environment with symptomatic carrier for five hours: WTF?!

A small child is not very vulnerable to covid 19. Besides, as a parent or guardian  of  a vulnerable person the rules allow him to make such decisions. I would interpret such a rule as 'insisting' that I make an interpretive decision if I thought it was required.

> Went for a drive with family in the car with potentially damaged eyesight: Clearly BS, but if true dangerous AF and illegal regardless of COVID

Remember that no optician was available - they were all closed. So he did a DIY job. Quite sensible in the circumstances. 

> He wrote these rules himself: Rank hypocrisy

He wrote some of the rules, which were then passes into law by Parliament. 

> His wife wrote article and went on R4 to talk about lockdown in London: Total BS

So?

> Ignored requests to confirm Durham journey for 7 weeks: Arrogance

There is no illegality in arrogance.

> Even on Friday described story as Fake News: More lies

He described some 'versions' of the story as fake news.

> Told press and public it's basically our fault for the bad perception of his actions: Gaslighting arsehole

I agree with him. I am a member of the public and he was not talking about me because I do not have a bad perception of his actions. 

> Misrepresented the lockdown rules just to save his skin: Risks lockdown collapsing and mass deaths

He misrepresented nothing. He acted within the rules.

> Basically told us who didn't breach regs it's because we didn't follow our natural instincts as parents/children/siblings/friends: Thousands of grieving people told they're stupid, basically

He is morally quite right and also legally sound. Not only is it a natural instinct to protect vulnerable persons but also, I have a statuary legal duty to act in the best interest of such persons. 

> That's for starters, but three clear breaches, including one obvious lie; gaslighting the entire country as to our motives; displayed arrogance and clear sense of exceptionalism from the man whose rules we're all supposed to be following.

Mr. Cummings followed the rules and interpreted the rules which the rules allow him to interpret. He put a vulnerable person before his career and reputation which, if you remember, was not what Michael Gummer (MP and Minister of Agriculture) did during the mad-cow disease episode; he had his daughter eat a beefburger on TV). He should have been jailed. Mr. Cummings should get a Knighthood. 

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 demdyke 13:53 Tue
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Hiya. Sorry I posted twice. The 3 network is very very slow up here and my first message did not appear until ten minuter after I posted it so I thought I hadn't sent it in the first place. Such is life - lol. 

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 Mike505 14:15 Tue
In reply to demdyke:

Suspects his eysight is poor, so tests it with a 60 mile round trip with his wife and child in the car?

The man makes my skin crawl, there are no words to describe my distain for him and his actions.

Post edited at 14:16
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 Eric9Points 14:29 Tue
In reply to demdyke:

> Mr Cummings should get a Knighthood. 

That post was brilliant.

You had me hook line and sinker until the last sentence.

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In reply to Eric9Points:

It'll be a place in the house of lords for services to public health...

Lord Cummings of Staines...

Post edited at 14:41
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 Mike505 15:01 Tue
In reply to Heike:

If Boris does fail to sack him, and if he doesn't resign, does it push UK politics towards a new and dangerous era. One where even the even the illusion of accountibility is done away with and where truths can be more easily re-written?
I have rarely looked on with such horror and anxiety as i do now.

Post edited at 15:02
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In reply to Pan Ron:

> The detractors of Boris and Cummings have been crying wolf for too long.  Credibility is shot to sh1t so even when you have something pretty damning its not taken seriously.  

At least you are consistent.

I'll leave these here for you, from the foremost left wing remainiac rag:

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In reply to demdyke:

'Remember that no optician was available - they were all closed. So he did a DIY job. Quite sensible in the circumstances. '

That's not true in fact, there is emergency cover and advice available though sight tests are not being conducted.  

I quite like the imaginative way he chose to 'test his eyesight', it reminds me of the way they used to check whether women were witches or not by chucking them in a pond.

'I'm not so sure about my vision so I'll go for a test drive.' CRASH! 'B*gger, best not go any further then. Glad I checked.'

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In reply to demdyke:

> See your first reply and compare it with your second, then spot the contradiction.

> The rules allow for a different course of action if there is a vulnerable person involved, which there was. 

The exception for vulnerable people is to remove them from the infected household, not move the entire household 260miles but otherwise unchanged. Also,if the kid is vulnerable here...

> A small child is not very vulnerable to covid 19. Besides, as a parent or guardian  of  a vulnerable person the rules allow him to make such decisions. I would interpret such a rule as 'insisting' that I make an interpretive decision if I thought it was required.

...why are they not vulnerable here?

> Beauty spot or not; the rules allow(ed) such a thing for exercise.

Not to drive for exercise. Not at that time.

> Remember that no optician was available - they were all closed. So he did a DIY job. Quite sensible in the circumstances. 

"I'm worried my eyes don't work. Grab me the car keys, love. Don't know why you're laughing; you're coming and so's the kid." 

Don't demean yourself defending this pythonesque farce.

> He wrote some of the rules, which were then passes into law by Parliament. 

> So?

So they're demonstrable liars. That used to be "bad".

> There is no illegality in arrogance.

Unaccountable unelected elites are now okay again?

> He described some 'versions' of the story as fake news.

Yes, he admitted and still has admitted only that for which he has been caught. Imagine how unlucky he must feel to have had a witness willing to check number plates or call the police there every single time he stepped out the house or car.

> I agree with him. I am a member of the public and he was not talking about me because I do not have a bad perception of his actions. 

> He misrepresented nothing. He acted within the rules.

> He is morally quite right and also legally sound. Not only is it a natural instinct to protect vulnerable persons but also, I have a statuary legal duty to act in the best interest of such persons. 

> Mr. Cummings followed the rules and interpreted the rules which the rules allow him to interpret. He put a vulnerable person before his career and reputation which, if you remember, was not what Michael Gummer (MP and Minister of Agriculture) did during the mad-cow disease episode; he had his daughter eat a beefburger on TV). He should have been jailed. Mr. Cummings should get a Knighthood. 

I can't engage with the rest of your points as they're so detached from reality. So insane is it to agree wholeheartedly with his story that I have to assume you're either trolling or lying to yourself.

Post edited at 16:00
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In reply to wercat:

> Is it not clear to you that the rules for self isolation are different from those aimed at reducing infection in the non-infected population.  For instance there were lawful excuses for being out when not in self-isolation.

Cummings was running scared out of London like the stock sneaky character in a disaster movie.   All his Tory mates were coming down with Covid and he figured the sh*t was about to hit the fan in London and if he or his family needed a ventilator there'd be more chance of getting one in Durham.

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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I think nail and head may be the case here. At the time ventilators were the big thing; ironic that they may have killed more people than they saved.

(I don't know at the moment, we will find out in due course. But forceps deliveries for example killed and damaged 1,000s of children in the last century for no good reason other than they became ' the done thing to do.' It took a massive effort to stop the medical establishment using them routinely.) 

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 jockster 18:24 Tue
In reply to Heike:

Probably been posted somewhere else but just in case,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZLtzLOLNDc&

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In reply to jockster:

Thanks for that. He always was an impressive character; anyone who doubts his sincerity (even if it has been misguided on occasion) is a poor judge IMHO.

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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Yes, a basically good man with a very sound sense of judgement.

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 jockster 19:12 Tue
In reply to Heike:

Edale, Hathersage, Castleton and Hope....

All rammed today.

Stay safe.

#2ndWaveKillerDom

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In reply to jockster:

> Probably been posted somewhere else but just in case,

Excellent! 

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 Toerag 20:55 Tue
In reply to jockster:

> Edale, Hathersage, Castleton and Hope....

> All rammed today.

> Stay safe.

> #2ndWaveKillerDom


It's not a second wave, it's the first one un-paused.  I hate to say this, but you're all stuffed over there

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In reply to Toerag:

Our part of Sheffield was noticeably busier today. The high street was pretty much business as usual and that's with only a few of the shops open. Mainly no social distancing. It'd been uplifting to see people taking it seriously until this morning. 

Post edited at 21:01
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In reply to jockster:

> Probably been posted somewhere else but just in case,

Thanks for that!

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In reply to Heike:

Interesting that the Guardian is reporting South Korea has just jailed someone for four months for breaking quarantine rules.  I can see the argument for that kind of sentence for people who know they have it and intentionally risk others catching it for their own convenience.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/may/27/coronavirus-live-news-spain-begins-10-days-of-mourning-as-global-deaths-near-350000

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 MargieB 17:06 Wed
In reply to Heike:

It's also a police matter now. Question is,  were the police  , in the first instance, overlooking Cummings going from London to his father's farm in Durham county, when they had coronavirus, because in that phone call between the police and Cummings' family  an assurance  was given that cumming's family would remain isolated on the family farm? If so, and that assurance was breached, the police may well be examining that . Plus evidence will have to be gathered about his real movements- I suspect that is why it is taking a while to complete the police side of it.

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 climbercool 17:21 Wed
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Interesting that the Guardian is reporting South Korea has just jailed someone for four months for breaking quarantine rules.  I can see the argument for that kind of sentence for people who know they have it and intentionally risk others catching it for their own convenience.

Yep, agree this should be a criminal offense, it's like drink driving but much much worse.

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 wercat 17:31 Wed
In reply to climbercool:

from a moral point of view I think he's like someone who cheated on his wife but claims it wasn't adultery because sex with a johnny isn't actual sex ...

Post edited at 17:31
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 demdyke 08:28 Thu
In reply to Mike505:

> Suspects his eysight is poor, so tests it with a 60 mile round trip with his wife and child in the car?

> The man makes my skin crawl, there are no words to describe my distain for him and his actions.

Hiya. He said that he suspected his eyesight was 'poorer' (than is was previously).

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 demdyke 08:35 Thu
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> 'Remember that no optician was available - they were all closed. So he did a DIY job. Quite sensible in the circumstances. '

> That's not true in fact, there is emergency cover and advice available though sight tests are not being conducted.  

Having had eye trouble myself this last four weeks, the nearest I got to an optician was 1. a telephone conversation with an 'assistant' at my local opticians, and 2. an eight feet apart conversation with the same 'assistant' at the entrance to the opticians.  

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 demdyke 08:56 Thu
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> The exception for vulnerable people is to remove them from the infected household, not move the entire household 260miles but otherwise unchanged. Also,if the kid is vulnerable here...

Don't be too harsh on the bloke. Remember that he was already receiving police protection at his London home. Leaving his wife in London whilst he went off to Durham with his four year old son did not present itself as a good idea. I think that most fathers/husbands would have done the same in those circumstances.

> Not to drive for exercise. Not at that time.

Yes it was, although it has to be admitted that 60 miles was pushing it.

> So they're demonstrable liars. That used to be "bad".

> Unaccountable unelected elites are now okay again?

From the above two comments it sounds like you're an elite puritan. Not only have elected elites got to be squeaky clean but unelected ones as well. I'm glad you have no say in my life!

> I can't engage with the rest of your points as they're so detached from reality. So insane is it to agree wholeheartedly with his story that I have to assume you're either trolling or lying to yourself.

I have never said that I agree with his story.

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 demdyke 09:00 Thu
In reply to Eric9Points:

> That post was brilliant.

> You had me hook line and sinker until the last sentence.

Thank you. Yes maybe a Knighthood is a bit over the top. A 'Companion of the British Empire' perhaps?

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In reply to demdyke:

'Having had eye trouble myself this last four weeks, the nearest I got to an optician was 1. a telephone conversation with an 'assistant' at my local opticians, and 2. an eight feet apart conversation with the same 'assistant' at the entrance to the opticians. '

You'd be better off googling for 10 minutes and finding opticians who are offering emergency services and qualified advice. My wife, for instance. There's at least 3 or 4 in Carlisle - I've just checked. If you went to a high street shop like Specsavers then yes you may have been disappointed.

In any event the idea of going for a test drive to test your vision is risible. You weren't even supposed to believe it, and you're a mug if you did. 

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 Mike505 10:35 Thu
In reply to demdyke:

Poor or poorer both suggest compromised. It's a lie either way, no man with and that level of intelect would risk injuring his family surely?

If he wasn't sure his eyes were good enough to get him to London how could he trust them to keep his family safe for that 60 mile journey?

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 malk 11:27 Thu
In reply to Alkis:

my fave front page was the daily star's free 'Do whatever the hell you want and sod everybody else' mask: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/may/27/daily-star-dominic-cummings-mask-coronavirus-boris-johnson-adviser

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