UKH

Hi everyone , has anyone any advice  regarding the above , every time I go Hiking whether its Helvellyn , Tryfan , or Aonach Eagach  etc , I get very severe leg cramps so much so ive had to stop sometimes for an hour or more hoping they will ease off a bit , it often happens around 50% of the way round my route and even more so descending. I take regular doses of magnesium and potassium daily more than  average, my water bladder in my backpack has  5 or 6 sachets of Dioralyte  in 2 litres .  I eat some carbs (a small amount) a couple of hours before starting hiking and some water also with Dioralye, this really is a major problem as I suffer driving home and often have to stop and my legs are usually in some pain/aches for several days after . Does anyone have any knowledge how to combat this or at least reduce it. Most of my Hikes in winter time.

In reply to wolfbane:

Where are the cramps and how do the walks you get them on compare with your normal level of activity?

My experience is that cramps are usually down to going further or faster than I have trained for.

It also sounds like you are taking a huge amount of electrolyte. Have you tried not doing that? 

In reply to DaveHK:

Indeed. Cramps are often a sign of an imbalance in your nutrient intake versus activity level. I’d opt for more real food and/or warm drink during winter hikes. Your calorie requirement is massively higher on such long and strenuous activity in winter v summer. 

In reply to wolfbane:

Good grief! Are you laying a trail for the hounds? I'd be hosing purple p1ss all over the place on that lot.

In reply to wolfbane:

Suggest - run some experiments. 

Relatively local to where you live - go out walking for half, then three quarters, then full day. Take normal food (for me = butties and a couple of mars bars) and a hot drink (thermos of coffee). How do you feel ? As others have said - you are taking a lot of electrolytes and drinking a lot.  If you are walking with others, what are they eating / drinking , can you match that?  If your normal weekday diet includes a lot of supplements it could be worth seeing a dietician to check that out too.

In reply to wolfbane:

Cramp is not always (if ever) about electrolytes, but about a change in the communication between nerves and muscles in fatigue. This might represent a lack of muscle conditioning - the usual reason. This sounds quite severe - are you exercising hard, but intermittently? If you are unsure, there are a few medical reasons for muscle cramping and seeing your GP may be worthwhile for a check-up.

Looking at the electrolytes you are using I would stop. Especially as you are already supplementing. 

Here is a review of studies for magnesium as a treatment for cramp – there was very poor evidence.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8020016/

In reply to wolfbane:

Taking that volume of electrolytes is ridiculous, you are probably dehydrating yourself quite badly having to flush all those salts out. 

In reply to SouthernSteve:

As you say, could be a muscle imbalance with one group of muscles overworked as the OP goes up or downhill.

Some stretching along with strength and conditioning may help.

In reply to wolfbane:

I think everyone else's advice to cut out all or most of the supplements is a first good step. Take a sandwich, a banana and a good wodge of flapjack, plus some water, maybe some tea, instead.

I also wonder, are these definitely cramps? Or are they just sharp pains? Where, exactly? It could be, for example, that your IT band is tight and that's causing pain. Look up ITBS and maybe talk to a GP or physio. Does stretching help? Do you work at a desk? Maybe try stetching more often (a little every day, or a bit more a few times a week), focusing on hips and calves.

In reply to wolfbane:

I've had this issue since I've been on warfarin, which works by inducing an artificial Vitamin K deficiency.  I tend to find a Berocca helps a bit though (despite not containing Vitamin K).  Perhaps try that instead of Dioralyte?  Or as some suggested maybe you're *overdoing* it - perhaps one Berocca in your bottle would do it?

The other thing that causes it is dehydration, so make sure you drink enough water generally.

In reply to wolfbane:

What is your daily diet like with respects to caffeine and alcohol?

I suffer horrendous cramps in my legs and have for as long as I can remember. Like you they normally come on in the car on the drive home or after sitting in a restaurant or cabin after a big day in the mountains. If I'm ski touring, then they typically come on the descent, which is extremely tedious. 

Like you I live on a cocktail of magnesium and vitamin supplements which most likely doesnt do much but I like to think it helps. However, I have found that in recent weeks limiting (essentially completely cutting out) caffeine and alcohol, as well as being properly hydrated the evening before a big day out has helped massively. Having proper meals and eating a high quality diet as others have said does also help, as does good rest and restitution.

In addition, I also have a basic stretching and breathing routine that I do once back at the car or if begin to feel them coming in the evening. This way I can get control over them before they become painful and avoid getting them whilst trying to sleep. I also have a focus on stretching properly after any training sessions.

In reply to GarethSL:

Thanks Gareth , and to all whom have responded so far , I will now add further information , yes these are severe cramps mostly in my hamstrings  also calfs , I do not ever consume caffeine or alcohol, and never smoked . Before I introduced the electrolytes the cramps were even worse! , I do not work at a desk and I am very very physical, when not to work busy I am at the gym at least 4 times a week and the very first thing I do is at least 4km on a slight incline on a treadmill - every time I go to the gym without fail , further more when on hikes  I take extra bottled spring water with no Dioralyte , iam just baffled by it all as I would say I was super healthy and much more so than anyone whom hikes with me , plus I do not go mad re speed and travel/walk when hiking at a very mundane speed  slower than average .

In reply to wolfbane:

Are you hill walking year round or just at certain times of the year? I'm not convinced that walking or running on a treadmill prepares you for hill walking, there's no downhill for a start!

In reply to DaveHK:

All year round , 90% in winter, but much prefer wintry conditions, cold  or even snow and ice , I have all the necessary equipment , ice axe crampons etc

In reply to wolfbane:

If they are not in your thighs, count yourself lucky - an order of magnitude or two worse!

I have periodically suffered from these horrific thigh cramps (literally screaming for minutes and left drenched in sweat). I would love there to be a miracle cure, but it seems there simply isn't (I've tried lots of things). Hydration definitely important. Electrolytes probably help and certainly can't do any harm in moderation. Stretching might help. Main thing for me is to avoid driving after a big day (on several occasions I've had to do an emergency stop and then sort of roll out the door to writhe in agony - not very safe), and, if sitting, not use thighs to stand up again. 

Basically it is going to happen when putting legs through a level of exertion they are not accustomed to. So, paradoxically, my worst attacks have been when at my fittest after massive winter climbing days or big alpine routes (picture me hopping around in excruciating pain on a bivi ledge screaming obscenities at a partner who seems to see the funny side of it..... ).

Nowadays my tactic is to build up fitness gradually, avoiding a significant steps up in the level of exertion of a day. Frustrating but effective. More recently I've had more issues with cramps in my fingers when climbing.

But, if anyone has a miracle cure, I'd love to hear about it too!

In reply to wolfbanesuffer rather like Robert has described - can be fingers or hands at the end of a long day climbing, or significantly thighs on a drive home, with all the attendant screaming and nausea from the pain.

I do lots of strength work, running and climb twice a week.  However, I also drive a lot and work at a desk.  I also take basic vitamins and some electrolytes though nothing like your quantities.

The only thing I have found (based on researching clinical articles) is that vinegar - just a sip or a swing - will stop it immediately.  The 'evidence' seems to say that it disrupts the signalling.  FWIW, I carry a small bottle of nice tasting vinegar in my rucksack, and have used it often.

In reply to Derek Furze:

Thank you. 

In reply to Derek Furze:

I'd heard of this. Interesting to hear that it can really work! The issue seems to be that you need to carry the vinegar with you when at risk of cramp (I assume it doesn't work preventatively). I might give it a try.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Hi Robert , yes , I have been in  your situation many times , hamstrings calfs , and quads , ( and car emergency stops , farmers have asked if was ok , told them it was cramps) ive found myself on the ground for over an hour coming down from Helvellyn mid winter screaming in pain and sweating , thankfully I was able to hide and no one saw me , it is just the worst , aches and pains have lasted up to a week. 

In reply to Derek Furze:

Thanks Derek I will most certainly try that , many thanks  ( any specific vinegar , or one can recommend?)

In reply to Robert Durran:

You can get tiny Nalgene bottles (30/60/125ml) that wouldn't be too much of a hassle to keep in your rucksack. Needlesports definitely sell them, but I've seen them in a few other common climbing/outdoor shops too.

https://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Accessories/Water-Carriers-Vacuum-Fl...

In reply to Robert Durran:

I don't think there is any preventative effect, but (caveats apply; for me) the effect is instant.  In situations where I would have stretched extensively and been *scared* to get back in the car, I have found that I can relax.  I get a pre-cramp sensation and it blocks that.

Obvs, I have no teeth! 😂

In reply to wolfbane:

I use apple cider, but I think any will do.

In reply to wolfbane:

Is your main exercise cycling by any chance? This is quite common in cyclists, especially the onset when descending. There are previous discussions on here. 

In reply to AndyC:

Hi AndyC , no,  I  do cycle but very infrequently , but not related to the gym or Hiking , a lot of my my every day life is climbing ladders a lot and stairs a lot, this some times initiates cramps, but nothing like hiking cramps.

In reply to tehmarks:

I use little 'sports nutrition/energy' caffeine shot bottles. Ones I have found discarded, as I wouldn't drink the muck. They have a fizzy drink cap, with inner bevel seal. I use them for carrying oil & balsamic vinegar, etc. Very secure, and free. HDPE bottle, PP cap.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sport+caffeine+shot+bottle

In reply to wolfbane:

Sodium bicarbonate is also suggested for combatting cramp (as well as lactate).

https://www.google.com/search?q=bicarbonate+lactate+%22muscle+cramp%22

In reply to wolfbane:

Without ploughing through all the replies, the main cause of cramp when exercising is a lack of salt through sweating it out. I know a few people who take salt tablets before a big day to prevent cramp and it works for them. Today lots of people try to eat a healthy diet and cut salt right out. Maybe that's part of the problem, as a certain amount of salt is necessary. I hope you find a solution, as cramp is very debilitating and in winter can be a really serious problem if it happens in bad weather.

In reply to wolfbane:

Do you wear thermals? For ice climbing, after a long walk in, if I didn’t wear thermal leggings I would often get cramp in both quads, very painful and unnerving. Your problem seems to be winter walking after the halfway point, maybe you’re topping out, resting and getting cold plus dehydrated.

In reply to wolfbane:

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I'm a fellow-sufferer. My cramps normally come on at night after a big mountain day, almost exclusively a day that involves significant downhill. Fortunately, I seldom get cramps while still walking. I never seem to get them after an exclusively uphill day (eg walking up to an Alpine hut).  When I do get cramps they are worst (by far) in the thighs and excruciatingly painful. They can be relieved slowly by walking around, but normally by the time I get the cramps I'm tucked up in my sleeping bag with few clothes on. Getting out of the bag is very difficult and putting clothes on impossible. If you ever see me sliding horizontally out of my sleeping bag and through the tent door wearing only underpants at 2.00am you'll know what the problem is!

Another aspect of my experience with cramps is that after I've had them once, they seldom repeat on subsequent nights, even if the subsequent days involve more strenuous downhills. It's almost always the first night of a trip when I suffer. 

A few mitigating tips I've found include drinking lots of water (and very little alcohol) during the evening, and replacing sodium salt with potassium salt while cooking the evening meal (or sprinkling it liberally on my chips if I'm eating out). I've also learnt to try to lie still through the pain which does eventually recede - but that can be very difficult. If I try to relieve the pain in one leg by stretching it, it almost always triggers cramp in the other leg -- ughh.

I think I might try the vinegar...

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore:

Is that readily available? Does it add similar flavour to sodium salt?

I've also learnt to try to lie still through the pain which does eventually recede - but that can be very difficult. If I try to relieve the pain in one leg by stretching it, it almost always triggers cramp in the other leg -- ughh.

Strangely I have only ever had the "pass me a suicide pill" agonising thigh cramps in my right leg (always inside of front). I did once, getting in to my sleeping bag in a tiny bivi tent, have the back of my thigh go simultaneously with the front. So stretching one side made the other worse......

Me too.

In reply to SouthernSteve:

I would agree that seeing a doctor would be important to rule out other significant causes of cramping eg claudication.  I'd suggest you do this before trying out any other suggestions (if you haven't already).

In reply to wolfbane:

One other thought...

Hyponatraemia (low concentration of  sodium in blood)(ie more water taken in than sodium - not necessarily a shortage of sodium) may contribute to cramps.

Are you actually drinking too much water?

Hyponatraemia is usually caused by having too much water rather than too little salt. Outside medical situations or extreme environments (extended physical work in high temperatures / humidity) drinking less rather than taking more sodium is the appropriate course of action. Where this has been studied, significant hyponatraemia is a significant problem.  Perhaps it is worth an experiment of 'running' a bit dry and seeing what happens.

In reply to wolfbane:

I don't suffer from cramps at all now and they were never as bad as what you describe, but I used to get calf cramps every now and then, annoyingly just randomly in the night whilst asleep...not the best way of waking up as I'm sure you know! I'm a regular runner and I think some intense intervals or tempo runs with poor recovery/stretching would make it more likely.

The reason I'm posting is I recently purchased a self massage gun and noticed the only muscles that were sensitive to the gun were the ones prone to cramping...so clearly some knotty muscle tissue there. The calves were particularly sensitive. After many weeks of slowly working on them such that they're almost (!) used to gun, they feel a lot better and no sign of cramping.

So, I'm wondering if you have some muscle issues in various places which could benefit from seeing a sports massage therapist... maybe a few sessions needed once you've identified any issues together. And then some regular maintenance with them and/or using a gun/roller etc.

You seem to have exhausted all the other possibilities so that's my uneducated and anecdotal guess for you to try out!

All the best, MB

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes - very readily, but not advertised as such. What I use is branded "LoSalt" and advertised in bold as "66% less sodium". In the small print it's clear, though not explicitly stated, that they've replaced most of the sodium chloride with potassium chloride. It tastes a little different but not at all unpleasant, and it's good for your heart too (though I only use it after mountain days). I think it does help with the cramps, though I've not done any scientific tests. 

I forgot to mention that I usually also make sure to eat a banana before going to bed. Another source of potassium I believe.

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore:

Thanks. I'll try some.

In reply to Rupert Woods:

Hi , yes I wear thermals, I usually take around 3 litres of water with me and 2 has Dioralyte in it, I have Redmond - Real Salt on a lot of my food also, and I too often eat a banana very early morning before going hiking , I think I will try the Apple cider vinegar and maybe the salt tablets, and as also mentioned a possible medical issue to look into. The only other thing I can add , a few decades ago I used to play amateur Rugby (rarely suffered cramps then) and I have remained the same  16st 7 , but I am 6ft 4  .   

In reply to wolfbane:

Hi, I've suffered from cramps since my mid thirties really (60 now). I don't want to come over as a harbinger of doom but it has got worse over the years, coming home one time from Coed Y Brenin I nearly caused a pile up when I had no choice but to put the 4 ways on ,pull over and jump out of my car the pain was that intense. Always thigh pain for me, in the early years it only used to occur after very strenuous Mountain Biking, but has now spread to walking and caving trips. Being fully hydrated before the activity really helps me, so if I'm doing anything strenuous now I'll start taking onboard extra water and a little electrolyte  the day before. Once they start they only last about 20 minutes  (although it feels like an hour) and it just seems to be a case of putting up with the pain and letting them pass, stretching doesn't help or make a difference (for me).

In reply to wolfbane:

A few people have recommended trying less salt rather than more,  it sounds like you are consuming huge amounts of the stuff. Are you not concerned about the other issues excess salt consumption causes? Also, the whole salt stops cramps thing is a bit of a myth. 

I'd give serious consideration to whether you have a strength and conditioning issue. I know you say you are very active but that does not always translate into hill fitness and even the fittest people can develop muscle imbalances.

There have been a lot of threads on here and other forums I use about cramps and people often seem to be looking for some sort of nutrition/hydration magic bullet. Such a thing doesn't exist in most cases.

In reply to wolfbane:

As there was some interest I thought a link might help to one of several articles.  Usually, searches bring up several similar, with acetic acid being a common theme.  Interestingly, most note the effect is so rapid that it can't be to do with rebalancing electrolytes or rehydration.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32459412/

I'm not validating the article/s, but in my n=1 experience can say it has been the best effect of anything I have tried.

In reply to wolfbane:

Completely randomly, I was watching an interview with the cyclist Tadej Pogacar* and he was talking about getting cramps towards the end of a race (unusually for him) and he called his team car up and they gave him a "salt and vinegar" drink which helped him. I thought that was worth adding to this thread.

*The Cafe Ride with Matt Stephens, for those who are interested.

In reply to fimm:

Would a packet of crisps work?!

In reply to fimm:

Hi , yes, the salt and vinegar does sound interesting , ive picked up some apple cider vinegar and salt tablets from H&B ,  the real salt I consume ( redmond)  is really a very tiny amount on some of the foods I eat , not everything.

In reply to wolfbane:

.... also booked a medical appointment to check for Claudication - my health and diet is to good I think , but just to ..maybe rule it out. 

In reply to wolfbane:

As has been said already, ditch the supplements and Dioralyte; you're a classic case of someone that's well trying too hard in the wrong way not to get sick, with these as the results.

Next time you go out for a day's walking, take some butties and a bottle of water.  Leave all the rest of the complicated dietary nonsense at home.

And every day, do some stretches of the sort runners do.  Target the quads, glutes, calf and inner thigh areas, more if you want to.  And try to make walking part of your every day too.  Not big rucksack walks, but if you can walk where previously you'd have taken the car, then walk.

It needn't be big, clever or complicated but that's exactly what you're making it.  Give it all a rest.  Just go for a walk.

T.

In reply to Tony Buckley:

As I have mentioned earlier , long before the Dioralyte  it was just spring water and butties ( ive added Diorolyte because of the issues happening) - the cramping pain was ferocious and long lasting , since using the electolytes  there is no question it is slightly less intense , but  without them Iam certain i,d be back to an hour or more screaming on a mountain somewhere. I walk a lot most days , approx 15 to 20 km per week

In reply to bentley's biceps: Hi

Had recent medical appointment Claudication has been ruled out now , Dr said I would struggle to walk 1 or 2km  on the flat with Claudication and getting cramps, never mind the many many km I cover up hill (often smokers can get it, I believe), never smoked . Yesterday I walked around Helvellyn approx 13km from Glenriding via Swirrells edge and then descended via Striding edge, the only things I changed/added other than my usual routine was , 1) I drink half a pint of pure orange juice 1 hour before the hike , 2) Took 2 salt tablets  from H&B - at the start of the hike , I slowed my pace a tad more also, so it took approx 7 hours to complete , on 2 occasions I felt a slight cramp come on but stopped immediately and rested for 5 minutes each time (apple cider vinegar at the ready also) - But I did not need to use it , I completed the walk and then drove home 110 miles - all with no cramps, now if these simple/slight alterations helped me , maybe just maybe someone else might benefit from them also. It could be just a lucky one off , but il see soon on next trip out.      

In reply to wolfbane:

I don't think you are going to get a solution from this thread I'm afraid. Nobody knows what causes exercise induced cramp so we don't know how to prevent it. All we can do to make suggestions for you to try. A brainstorming session.

If the electrolytes help somewhat, then if your doc agrees, keep doing it. Be careful over doing it however, as you may create other more concerning problems. I suspect it's only masking the underlying issue however.

If you were getting cramps whilst sprinting, I would agree that warmup and stretches would help, but with hill walking, the warm up and stretch is built in to what you're doing. I find this to be true for anything up to jogging intensity. I find a slow jog is all the warm up I need so I completely skip warmups and stretches. May be different for you.

How would you describe your diet? Typical meals. Meat heavy, carb heavy? There may be things you find normal and not worth mentioning, but others might spot something that may be worth trying. Any long term medication that could be contributing?

Body temperature while walking? If you run cold, your body could be limiting blood flow to your legs. Could be something to experiment with. Do you wear shorts? Are you quite a sweaty person when walking (bit personal I know).

How is your back? Do you suffer back pain? Has a physio ever suggested you have a stiff back? If so it could be causing nerve interference that I've read may result in cramping. I think the term is nerve compression. Flat feet can cause this also.

Another thing that comes to mind, you appear to be doing what you can when walking. What about the rest of the time? Do you drink plenty the day before? If you are dehydrated the day before a walk, you are unlikely to fix that by drinking plenty throughout your walk.

My fear (and this is one of the problems with a forum is you always get scary suggestions) is there could be a more serious underlying cause like Parkinson's, some other nerve disease or kidney, liver, thyroid disorder. I would suggest when you next see a doctor you exaggerate your concern/anxiety over this issue to try and discount all the potentially serious diseases that this could be a symptom of.

In reply to montyjohn:

In the spirit of just chucking in random ideas - the OP describes what seems like really quite a lot of exercise every single day.  Maybe try having a rest day every once in a while.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Insufficient vinegar, I think. It's just a flavour in crisps.

In reply to montyjohn:

Hi

My diet  is quite ok I would say, average day,  brekfast is fruit blueberries or banana, lunch chicken or tuna sandwich on brown bread, evening meal fish and greens and or with with beans (Sunday dinner ribeye steak with mediterranean veg). No medication. I run quite hot, cold does not effect me usually - only fingers - ive been known to do a Wim Hoff now n then. Dont wear shorts, only 3/4  length cargos in the gym. Get sweaty when working really hard in hot weather , like a lot of people I expect. No back pain.  I wear specialist insoles  for collapsed arches. I also drink plenty of water every day , I do not drink tea or coffee, or any caffeine.  And crazily - ive just got cramp in my right hamstring writing this  ..for real.

In reply to wolfbane:

Another angle of attack perhaps...when was the last time you had a review of your insoles? Possibly also seek a second opinion?

In reply to wolfbane:

wow, you haven't really given many concerning habits to pick on here. The only one, which is likely a long shot is the flat feet:

https://www.alignfootankle.com/post/what-causes-flat-feet#:~:text=Symptoms%....

"Other symptoms include frequent leg cramps, such as in your calf or hamstring" which is exactly what you describe. I wouldn't discount it. How you would get this confirmed is another matter.

I would repeat what I said earlier, exaggerate your concern with a doctor to get tests done. You'll get fobbed off overwise.

I hope you persevere and figure out what's causing it.

In reply to wolfbane:

Sorry, some more unsolicited advice (serves you right for asking a question on a forum). Actually, it's not advice, just what I found worked for me. Always suffered with flat feet. Which became very painful whenever I started running or went on long walks. I've got specially made inserts which I've used for a long time. These stopped the damage which was great. But if I don't use them, I will hurt my feet again. I believe the insoles whilst giving my arches a rest made them weak.

What I've found works for me more recently however is the inserts are great at giving my arches a rest. So I only use them if walking around town, or going to work.

For exercise I don't use them anymore. Instead I focus on building strength into my feet which I think my insoles prevented.

I literally told someone on here recently that I no longer suffer from arch pain since running regularly. However, I did take a break recently due to ill health, started running again recently and yep, arch pain. Annoying. So I'll repeat what i did last time. Foot exercises, and build the running up slowly without insoles to build that strength into my feet and use the insoles between to give me feet a rest.

This has worked for me in the past and hopefully again. Others may have different results.

In reply to montyjohn:

I started suffering arch pain a few years ago. Got referred to a physio for investigation.

Then, during lockdown, I realised I had stopped walking around the house on the balls of my feet (a habit from polite shared house living). I started again. The pain went away. I figured it was exercising my arches.