UKH

I had some good years from my Mountain Equipment Lhotse jacket after getting it in one of their “seconds” sales for £90. However it is delaminating badly now so I’m in the market for something new. 

I read this UKC thread (about the same thing on the same jacket) which resulted in the jacket being replaced but it seemed that the problem may have been fairly common with the 40D Gore Tex being the issue.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/gear/mountain_equipment_gore-tex_pro_jack...

So, as I’d rather get something that should hopefully last a number of years, can anyone recommend something that should last a lot of use (with rucksacks on)? Is the fabric (40D) still a problem or have things moved on now?

I’d happily go for an ME again as I really liked the fit of it, but thoughtI I would ask the wisdom of UKC before I go looking (no real budget - just interested in something that will be bombproof). It would be used day-to-day a lot as well as climbing /walking trips. I also live on a narrow boat so need something that I can stand in for hours whilst getting soaked on the back. 

Also, once a jacket has delaminates badly, is there any hope/use for it?

ME Tupilak would be the obvious choice as the cut is the same but it's made entirely in 80D which is what the shoulders of the Lhotse are made of . 

What I really want is something well cut but made from old school 3layer heavy duty Taslan type goretex such as all good jackets were made from in the 90s before the industry convinced us all that we needed a jacket to weigh 200g and  barely last a year! 

GodI sound like a grumpy old man but Goretex Proshell just seems like it's just not up to frequent use in the real world.

Does anyone make such a thing?

Although not cheap, the Mountain Equipment Kongur MRT is bombproof. I've used this jacket for years and it still does the job. not necessarily the lightest, but tough, hard wearing, and has a big enough hood for a climbing helmet too.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/clothing/waterproofs/mountain_equipment_kon...

I've had the same experience with my ME Shivling jacket. Doubt it's a brand thing, just the nature of the material. Delamination is particularly bad in the shoulders and back, where your pack is rubbing all day. Bit disappointing to only get a few years out of a £200+ jacket, I couldn't imagine paying for the top of the range £500 jobs. It still keeps me dry in the cold stuff but in a downpour wets out pretty quickly. Not much you can do about it afaik.

Used a Crux Flak jacket for 6 years on mountains before the zip gave up. Used it for further 2 years building dry stone walls and gardening before stopping that nonsense. Replaced the zip recently and now use it for anything bushcrafty or where I might get really unclean. Still keeps me dry mostly (leaks some through new zip)

3 years ago bought a Crux torq jacket - zero issues so far...

Wetting out? Old school 90s advice was to wash in pure soap ( grangers g clean or nikwax techwash) and then tumble dry or iron to reactivate the dwr. Visiting the gore factory back then they gave you a taslan jacket to wear in the shower and then flung it immediately into a tumble dryer- the absence of abrasion or dirt on the test jackets meant they all headed water miraculously well. Failing that having washed the jacket as described out it through another wash cycle with 2 capture of nikwax TX direct ...this should markedly improve the heading performance. If the face fabric is very abraided then it may not do so well but as an aside it works a treat  on tent flys which don't get rubbed and worn. 

Note that is got to be pure soap as detergents contain wetting agents.

You might find one second hand on ebay.

I've still got mine, had to retape some of he seams but the rest is still going strong more than 20 years on.  

I've tried techwash a few times but I'm pretty sceptical about goretex really. It did work quite well on a tent to improve beading. After a lot of use Goretex is never quite as good as it was and even to start it's nowhere near as good as the marketing makes out!  I'm mainly talking about heavy rain, in the cold it handles precipitation fine and overheating is usually less of a problem. With a fleece underneath you stay 'dry' though. I just hiked through Mtirala National Park in Georgia, which is one of the wettest places I've ever been (and I'm from Wales!) I was fairly well soaked through after the first day of bushwhacking, down to my baselayer. I usually leave the jacket rolled up in a pannier though, which probably doesn't help the longevity.

Give me eVent any day of the week.

If GoreTex is your issue, you could take a hard left turn and try out some of the Paramo gear - no membrane layer, but if you re-Nikwax it a couple of times a year, you'll have a jacket that keeps you dry, for a given value of dry. They're a lot warmer than a normal shell jacket though, so you do have to adapt how you layer.

It sounds like the actual technical problem you're having is two-part - GoreTex jackets delaminate because the membrane is actually made of PTFE (Teflon) which is really hard to stick to things, but delamination doesn't get you soaked through; if the face fabric wets out (because the DWR is coated in dirt, or has beeb rubbed off,) there isn't a concentration gradient to drive moisture inside the jacket (perspiration) out, so the sweat builds up and gets you wet. The solution to this is to wash it with Tech Wash, and then treat with Nikwax, ideally from the spray bottle as it allows you to put more where you need it.

I've just brought myself a Montane ajax jacket, which is 'old school' goretex (not pro or active) and is 40D but reinforced to 70D across shoulders, upper arms, chest and waist (i.e where pack and harness rub). 

Hoping this will prove more robust than the last few waterproofs I've had. 

Feels pretty bombproof but yet to really use in filthy weather, or for any length of time. Suspect it will be quite warm but that doesn't bother me if longevity is good.

Currently £150 in go outdoors (or £135 with BMC discount) so can be had 'cheap'.

I had a berghaus goretex jacket that I brought when I was 18, and lasted me nearly 15 years before it fell apart. Wasn't fancy at all but totally bombproof. New jackets for similar money do all seem to be light weight at expensive of longevity.

I basically think along the same lines as Andrew Skurka:

https://andrewskurka.com/why-im-hard-on-gore-tex-the-king-of-hype-tm/

Eventually, if the weather is bad enough, you'll start getting wet so it's best to be able to manage this. I'm talking multi-day/week trips with no opportunity to dry out etc. I'm sure the wetness on the inside of the jacket is from outside, not sweat buildup  I did meet a couple of guys in Northern Sweden (not known for it's fine weather!) who seemed very pleased with their Paramo jackets. I need it for cycling, hiking and mountaineering though so don't think the single layer approach would be suitable. 

They all over-hype their fabrics. Gore aren't alone in this. My main waterproofs are Gore-tex (old pro shell) and Pertex Shield. I've always got on with the Gore-tex unless I'm wearing too much under it, the pertex has always been sweaty. I've never tried Paramo shells, but I have two of their windproofs and they are far too warm for anyone running hot so I'm not going near their "waterproofs".

Polartec neoshell is the best waterproof /breathable mix. I wish I'd bought a jacket along with the bottoms I treated myself too. So few companies use it now sadly.

True, I just use Goretex as an example as they are the most visible, plus their tagline is 'Guaranteed to keep you dry'! I still like Goretex jackets and will probably replace my delaminated Shivling with a Lhotse if I can find a good deal. 

Many thanks for all of the replies, it’s really appreciated. 

Plenty for me to go one here - I’ll check out the ME Tupilak ass there are plenty of local stockists. I’ll try to find a few places which stock Paramo and Montane to try a few alternatives also.

It sounds like Gore Tex is a bit hit and miss in terms of longevity so I’ll hopefully focus on something that’s got a decent guarantee as per the ME jacket in the thread that’s I linked to in my first post. 

Hopefully I’ll be nice and dry soon!!

Note for anyone interested:  Inside the Factory on BBC2 on 6 August is about how they make waxed jackets. Looks worth a watch.

Detergent IS a wetting agent; that's how it works!