UKH

My partner doesn't like being tied together on steep scrambly stuff or exposed aretes.

This means lots of tying and untying which is time consuming.

Our brain-wave solution is to carry 20m rope each.

Store in the rucksack, clove-hitch onto harness and tie the two ropes together. Maybe fig 8 in the end of each rope and a screwgate. Double fisherman's is a bit fiddly and slow. Could ditch the crab and have two fig 8's for a happy compromise.

That way we can quickly untie or unclip depending on how we choose to join our ropes, and then a hand full of chest coils for the scrambly stuff.

Now I've never seen anyone do this which is always of concern.

Apart from a bit of extra drag on glaciers when tied, before we commit, what am I not thinking of?

You have probably already thought of this, but you'll be limiting yourselves to only being able to climb 20m pitches without the joining knot jamming in gear/on spikes... where having the freedom to climb a longer belayed pitch, or climb together with more than 20m of rope out between you can be useful. 

Also, make sure that if you go for it you know how to perform crevasse rescue hauling past a knot. Easy when you're practiced, a faff when not.

I think you'll be better off simply getting to the stage where you can untie and take coils super efficiently- with practice it should take a minute or less for one of you to untie and the other to throw on a few coils. You can also try stacking the spare rope into your rucksack instead of taking coils- you'll see a lot of guides doing this as it's quick and more comfortable than carrying coils on long glacial sections.

Simple. Tell your partner he's wrong.

Good point. "steep scrambly stuff or exposed aretes" are places the rope can easily protect you. 

I'd understand if that was nervousness about being tied together on unprotected snow or ice. 

In reply to Will_he_fall

Excellent point. Will run through it.

Not a problem with what we have planned.

In reply to Max factor:

A lot of what we've been doing is pretty unprotected. The bits that came up in conversation were the aguille du midi arete. If the person behind fell, would the person in front notice quick enough to jump the other way?

We were going up Mont blanc du tacul the other day. Fairly steep sludgy scramble with no real protection (however there are a few cravasses to consider along the way).

I see his point, does the risk of two falling outweigh the chance of being saved?

Any rocky sections are a no brainer for being tied together but we don't have much rocky stuff planned.

Not really how I'd describe it. Which route did you do? 

Have you done Mont Blanc yet? 

Sounds like you need a new partner!

We have settled on a 50m skinny 8mm half rope in the mountains. Gives lots of options for route finding retreat abseils etc

My partner and I stay roped together and adjust coils on the fly! In the two areas you have described we would move together using fundamental alpine simul climbing techniques 
 

I posted recently about transitioning into hard ice slopes where you aren’t putting in protection and there is a good case for unroping but on rock why bother just move together and simul climb if he’s that worried place some pro

x2 20m ropes with a knot in the middle no use what so ever plus I don’t really get your partners motivation? Is he worried you will drag him off of other way round?

2 x 20m ropes joined by a krab is going to be a disaster, apart from snow trudging where it will be a minor irritation dragging in the snow, I'm sure you'll find the krab drags over every rock, snags in every possible crack. It won't be long before you will scream and throw it off a cliff begging the glacier gods to devour it.

Exactly, just like everyone else.

Pretty fundamental!!

Normal route. Didn't quite make it all the way. First day of acclimatising so ran out of puff.

Not yet.

Adjusting coils isn't the issue. It's the faff of removing all coils, and then one person carrying all the rope. I'm not going to carry a whole rope in coils so it's going in the bag. So more faff. This is why it's easier to just stay tied together even when not needed. But if one person wants to be untied..... hence the possible solution.

Me dragging him off.

Not because I'm more likely to fall, it's him wanting to be in control of as many variables as possible. 

There's an old thread here which is an interesting read. As you'd imagine no solid consensus.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/expedition+alpine/aiguille_du_midi_arete_...

Your description doesn't really match!

There is no faff. A few tips.

Have a dedicated rope, not the 60 or 70m rope you use at home. 30 or 35 or 40m is enough for what you're doing. 

When you shorten the rope don't undo the previous tie off - just take more coils and tie off again. That way when you lengthen the rope the tie off is already there. 

the front person holds the coils so he can adjust the length accordingly.

Obviously no one carries coils on the glacier.

That's right. You need to sit him down and have a strict word with him.

If your losing time due to roping up and unroping all the time. I would personally just stay roped and learn to move efficiently and safely this way. Your suggested solution has all kinds of issues. 

your other option is to commit to offroping and stay solo longer. Which might push you out of your comfort zone

stopping every time to switch is a time killer. Which is why we don’t bother.

besides my partners body might also jam into something and save my life when we both fall

^^^I don't know why this point isn't made more often. 

Ye, so I've got a 40m rope for this trip. It's a great rope, double dry treated. The mistake I made was buying a full rope 9.5mm. I think it weights about 2.5kg.  Should have got a half rope. It's amazing how thin and light they make them these days.

There are definitely bits that I, and I expect he will want to be roped up for.

I wouldn't either, and so we haven't been unroping until he made his concerns clear.

I do fully agree with this. Actually I agree with with everything in this thread, but at the same time, we would only unrope if both are both comfortable to do so, and I do want to be accomodating if my partner has a fear that he struggles to manage. 

Apologies not sure what you mean. How would you describe it? I imagine it's just semantics and experience.

For me it's steep. My maudit will be the steepest high slope I've done. I find it quite hard to judge angles when I'm on them but I'd say it bits of it were approaching 40 degrees. For me that steep.

Slushy. It's so hot here, and as we had a fairly late starting day trip from the valley it was a melted slushy ice-cream cone. Two steps forward, one step back. Looking forward to a early start.

Scramble, this is probably semantics but with all that slush giving way below I'm not sure how to describe it other than a scramble really. 

How about a steep snow plod. Why/ how could you expect protection on a walk?

Sounds like you've got exactly the right rope.

8.1 mm half all the way, microtraction goes down to 8mm

prefer to take 50m gives more options plus for crevasse rescue climbing in a 2 you need more rope than you think when leaving 15m spacing. A 30m too short imo  but might go 40m 

Whatever you decide to do the important thing is that both of you agree, are happy and well practiced with the procedure you adopt.

John

This is really a question about teamwork.  Alpine climbing requires you to move efficiently as a team.  Because the terrain and conditions are constantly changing, this may mean that you have to remain roped up over a section when it might be more efficient or safer to be unroped, or vice versa.  You may have to climb rock sections in crampons rather than lose time repeatedly taking them off and on.  It's often a compromise, because what is the best approach for one section may be different just a few metres ahead.

This works best if all the climbers in the team have similar levels of confidence and competence.  It may mean that at times they are operating outside their personal comfort zones in the interests of the team as a whole.  For this to work, they must have trust in one another.  

From the sound of it, your partner does not trust you not to fall and drag him off with you, and wants to be unroped except when he considers it to be absolutely necessary.  It sounds as if this isn't personal, and I wonder whether he is simply uncomfortable with the realities of Alpine climbing, but as you've found it is not efficient, and if it slows the team down it may even be less safe.  You need to have an honest conversation with him about where your respective comfort zones lie, and how far into those you are both prepared to go.  You need to discuss how he can become more confident about moving together, because this is a key alpine skill.  There are ways to increase protection when moving together, if that is a concern, and it can be practised in the UK.  Maybe you just need to agree who should carry the rope.  If you can't agree you may need to find another more compatible partner.

Are you both aware and practiced in how to protect each other ( to an extent ) as equals on the steep scrambly stuff you describe so neither of you should pull the other person off? If not perhaps ask an experienced friend or a professional to show you so you feel happy moving together in this type of terrain. Alternatively you may find the Bruce Goodlad book an excellent introduction.

  The method you describe would not work in this scenario as the knots / krabs would catch possibly jam or even dislodge rocks.

Are you both aware and practiced in how to protect each other ( to an extent ) on exposed aretes  you describe so neither of you should pull the other person off? The situation varies but one common technique for a section of unprotected snow ridge, for example, is for both parties to have a few coils of handheld rope in one hand, not locked off, so if either party falls both let go of the coils giving a tiny bit of extra time for the other party to ( bravely ) leap off the other side of the ridge. Other strategies could include one climbing each side of the ridge with a few metres of rope taut between you ( not always practical ), unroping so one carries the rope for that short section and you are both soloing ( don't waste time coiling the rope and putting it away in a rucksack for a short section ), possibly belay each other if the section is short. Again, check out the Goodlad book.

Perhaps most importantly, practice loads in this kind of terrain so you are both confident in your own footwork / crampon work and each others.

FWIW the definition of scrambling would usually be understood as easy climbing on rocky terrain, hence the confusion between you and other posters above.

I'd  call 40 degree snow potentially dangerous walking, unless skis are involved when I'd call it fun!

About 25 years ago (sorry to spin antique yarns, but I've only been up Mont Blanc du Tacul once since then and it wasn't much more recent) I was walking back down from M B d T to col du Midi and was on a slope, 50 degrees? a bit above the bergschrund/crevasse above the col. It was a well trodden rut zig zagging down. My brother walking ahead of me completely tripped on his crampons head first down the slope towards the crevasse. We were on a rope exactly text book and I dug in/braced with coil left hand and sunk shaft of axe with right. In that split second I was expecting catastrophe but actually it wasn't so bad and we were on our way again unscathed. Even though there were no runners it saved his bacon.