UKH

Hi, I've done a lot of summer hiking in the Uk, a bit of winter hiking in Snowdonia and a lot in the southern Alps with peaks around the 3000m mark. I'm also a keen climber, but out of practice due to Covid and Kids (+ more excuses).

All my Alpine peaks to date have been hiked with a couple of cheap fleeces and a cheap waterproof coat (which I rarely use, if ever). Honestly, I've picked good days to climb beforehand, so most of it is just in a T-shirt. Just need a fleece, when sitting around at summits when at the 3000m mark. 

I want to start doing higher stuff, in the 4000m+ range, with a view to doing Mt Blanc and Elbrus in the future. With that in mind it's time to invest in a proper hard shell but I want something that will be suitable for my short and longer term goals if possible. I'm looking for budget friendly options here.

But I'm confused by it all.

I was thinking something like a Rab Kangri for now, and when I get higher, invest in a warm down like a Rab Neutrino Pro. These are both way more than I wanted to spend, but it seems the prices are the prices so there we go.

Question is, when it comes to stuff like Mont Bland and Elbrus, would one wear a hard shell over your down, or do you wear one or the other, down for dry/cold, otherwise wear hard shell?

I know down isn't great when compressed. I need to understand the above, as if I get the hard shell now, I need to know how much to oversize it by.

Or do I need to accept that to climb something like Elbrus, I'll need a much warmer hard shell in the future (if I get that far) and the extra spending that comes with it.

I'd rather not buy completely different gear every time I increase altitude goals by 1000m if possible.

Regarding boots, I hike in Scarpa Mantas, and accept for Elbrus (and maybe Month blanc) I will need warmer boots, but that's a problem for another year.

In what season/ month are you considering Elbrus?

Excellent typo

Shell over a down mid layer if you're wearing one, under a massive duvet. Most big down jackets are made from windproof material, and you simply shouldn't be getting wet in bad weather at altitude — it will be snowing rather than raining — and if you are I suggest you've made an error of judgement! If nothing else, it's absolutely not practical having to remove your shell every time you want to put on or remove your big down jacket in the conditions you'd want to be wearing it in.

I'd also go so far as to say that I wouldn't carry a hard shell at all in the Alps by default, because if the weather is minging you're almost certainly not going to leave the valley or hut. Bit different if you're doing something committing, obviously, but a windproof/light softshell is more appropriate in most alpine scenarios in my opinion.

Don't oversize it by anything beyond fitting your likely 'action clothes' (base/midlayer and possibly windproof) — and most sensible manufacturers cut/size their jackets with this in mind anyway.

The shell is only to keep the weather out — the warmth comes from your other layers.

Only my opinions of course; others may disagree!

It’s a mine field and everyone will have differing views on the perfect layering system.

If I was starting again, with limited budget,  and just looking at stuff for the Alpine 4000m environment (including Mont Blanc) I’d go for a decent base layer, whatever fleeces you’ve got as mid-layers and maybe something like  a Rab Kinetic alpine jacket, which is sufficiently waterproof/wind proof and protective for days you ‘should’ be out, but also acts like a soft shell. If you want to use it in the UK as well, you’ll need something more waterproof.

Add on to that a down jacket, to go over the top, and you’re good to go (top half anyway!) Needle Sports currently have the Mountain Equipment Senja down jacket for £109- which is probably too much for the Alps in summer but rather too hot than too cold! With proper layering it could probably do Elbrus as well, subject to the season.

A Kangri will do the job fine, but you will need more insulation for hanging about on summits. You could go much cheaper to be honest, the shell is not as much for warmth as keeping your other layers somewhat dry in bad weather. Down jacket I usually throw on over my hard shell; if you are in Scotland or somewhere where the shell is likely to be wet, a synthetic belay jacket is better. 

You can use the same layering system for Mt Blanc & Elbrus, assuming you go in summer. 

I usually wear: long sleeve base layer, fleece (one with thumb loops, e.g. https://rab.equipment/eu/power-stretch-pro-jacket), softshell jacket (breathable/no fleece lining), hardshell (if cold & windy), down jacket (belaying/on summits).

You could probably get by on Mt Blanc with a synthetic midlayer instead of a bigger down jacket. Also it's easy and cheap to rent big jackets for Elbrus. Most of the time I am wearing just a fleece & softshell until pretty high up. Make sure every layer (base layer optional) has a good hood, they add a lot of warmth. 

Honestly, too early to say. We are talking a few years away as I want to get more experience under my belt first but pretty safe to assume July/August

In reply to PJ2398:

In reply to JStearn:

Thanks all for your input. Very much appreciated. There's a somewhat similar trend from all of you which is somewhat surprising but also a very good sign.

If I'm understanding correctly, subject to trying a few different jackets on, I'm probably going to go for a pretty warm Down Jacket (I quite like Rab, but not held one in my hands yet).

It will pack small, and hopefully stay in my bag for all the 4000m+ stuff I do. I'll limp on with my cheap waterproofs for now (hopefully won't need them) and can just throw my Down on if loitering for too long.

Avoid the rainy stuff for now, and if I ever get to do Elbrus, I'll invest in a proper hard shell.

Any other thought are very welcome, thanks.

In reply to montyjohn:

Hard shell needs to be light. I like them with lots of pockets to save going in and out of the sack. Make sure that the side pockets are high set, so that you can have your harness on and still get to them with your hands.

Do you have a good soft-shell jacket? In my experience, a hardshell jacket stays in the pack a lot, but only if you can bring a good wind-breaking outer layer, otherwise the only thing windproof will be either your (cheap and non-breathable) rain jacket or your down jacket. 

My layering system for summer Alps is generally:

-merino base layer (longsleeve, preferably with collar as I'm an easily sunburnt redhead)

-fleece (R1, Powerstretch, or similar)

-lightweight wind-resistant softshell (Mountain Equipment Squall , Rab Torque, or similar)

-lightweight down/synthetic puffy (depending on altitude and temperature)

-hardshell jacket with good high pockets and good helmet hood

The hardshell is by far the item that gets the least use, as long as I bring a soft-shell. Cold alpine winds tend to make me put on my hardshell even when it's not raining if I don't bring a soft-shell. 

Edit number 2: the problem is you can't always avoid the cold and the rain. Obviously modern weather forecasts make almost certain you won't be caught off guard doing hard climbing in the rain but you might be moving from hut to hut in cold and wet to get to the good stuff after the rain.