UKH

Hi, looking for route suggestions for a alpine newbie. Looking for a mixed route and more of a rock route too leading hvs and grade 3 Scottish winter routes and so is my friend who is coming, Seen the chere route on Mont Blanc Tactcil looks good fun. Will this be in nick as a mixed route in July? Any help will be greatly appreciated 

Take it easy, and get used to the altitude and the fitness levels required. A few suggestions:

On rock, anything on the Aiguille de l'M is a good starter. The NE ridge is classic, and the Couzy is pretty good too. The traverse of the Petit Charmoz is also worth doing. You could also think about the regular route on the Aiguille du Peigne.

On mixed, I'd think about the Aiguille du Tour. The normal route is good training for snowfields and glaciers, with a nice little scramble at the top. you might also think about the Forbes Arete on the Chardonnet. 

These routes look easy on paper, and probably well below your capabilities - but it is worth getting comfortable with all the new skills you will need, and the fitness to move fast enough. Take notice of guidebook times - they are there for a reason. When you can do the easier routes in guidebook time, then it is time to think about stepping up a grade or two. 

Hope this helps,

Steve

Thanks for the detailed info 👍 

Petits charmoz is great as a rock route. It's easy climbing which means you can focus on the approach, route finding and descent which IMO are the most challenging parts of it.

A good mixed route would be the pointe lachenal traverse. Again easy climbing, but this enables you to work on your moving together skills and rope work. The forbes is also a good idea, but a lot bigger and more committing.

The chere will most likely be in, but the conditions can vary massively on it. When I did it last summer it felt about scottish IV 5.

I think a big mistake when you start off is taking the alpine grades too literally. The problem is that the PD, AD, D, TD, ED grades are very much overall grades and can sometimes be misleading. The better way to judge difficulty is to look at the length, commitment grade and technical grade as this gives you a much better understanding of the route. For example, a lot of people I met last year did the North west integrale on the petits charmoz (AD) and then decided they might try the whymper couloir (AD+). Seems like a logical progression. But while the integrale has a 10min approach, commitment grade of II, is 300m long, and has an easy one abseil descent, the whymper has a 1 day approach, commitment grade of III, 700m long and a fully involved descent back down the whole route. To top this off, the whymper has to be started at 1am (not taking into account of approach time) so that you can get back down the couloir before it becomes a death trap.

Basically, you're probably best off gradually easing yourself in so that you can get used to the alpine feel. Also, you'll find it really useful to be open minded about which routes you do. Getting hung up on dream routes can be incredibly frustrating, and there is a lot to do out there!

Hope that helps to some degree

Lots of great advice from Gooberman and Robbie. Here are some more options:

- Buy the Rockfax Chamonix Guidebook, lots of options in there.

- From the Albert Premier Hut there are several options for climbing the Tour. You may find the Purtscheller (sp) a good rock route in that region too. Tete Blanche and Petit Fourche can make for another fun day from the same hut.

- As rock climbers you may enjoy Lepidopteres on the Peigne followed by the normal route to the summit. The Papillons is also a fine mid mountain rock route. 

- When acclimatised the Pyramide de Tacul and Roi Siam are lovely rock routes ( glacier approaches ).

- A great place to base yourself for acclimatisation and lots of short training routes you can link together ( rock and mixed ) would be the Torino Hut.

Have fun!

Just be careful with the rockfax. The topos are good and it's got a lot of good routes, but the route descriptions (and even grades of certain climbs/pitches) can be plain wrong! It's worth, if you can, backing it up with other guidebooks. Batoux's hundred finest routes book, although a big coffee table beast, has great route descriptions and is also very useful for gauging difficulty/seriousness.

Thanks Robbie, I just though it was a good starting point for Subsea. Another good book for Subsea might be  Bruce Goodlad's  'Alpine Mountaineering'. 

    Fortunately I have a ridiculously large collection of alpine guide books to thumb, as well as the Rockfax, and they all have their querks. All part of the joy of the adventure. Comparing grades between some of the Piola guides, the AC guides, the old Perroux guides, Laroche, Lelong, Rockfax, Rebuffat and the Battoux book etc. you'd sometimes think they are describing a different mountain range - and I don't mean just due to changing conditions.

Lots of good advice for Subseaclimber on this thread. Let's hope he has a great first season. 

All great suggestions, and I'd particularly second the easy stuff on the Aiguille du Tour, Tete Blanche and Petite Fourche as a good introduction. It's a bit of a slog to the Tour Glacier/Trient Plateau, so it makes sense to make the most of it and get a couple of routes done in the area.

Other options (from the Midi or Helbronner) could be the Entreves traverse, the Dent du Geant, the Cosmiques (though it has suffered rockfall and I don't personally have any idea how it's affected the route), the Arete a Laurence and the Pointes Lachenal traverse. Those last three are all really half day routes, so could be combined to make a longer day. The East Arete of the Pyramide du Tacul also looks like a great rock route at about eight pitches of VS (from my understanding - haven't done it myself).

Cross-referencing several guidebooks is always a good idea. You don't have to go out and buy them all - the OHM has a copy of virtually every guidebook for the area known to man, and they'll allow you to photocopy descriptions from most of them. The OHM is also a great place to get information on conditions and make plans; I'd almost go as far as to say it's a mandatory visit when you arrive.

Get yourself up the midi and do Pointes Lachenal traverse and/or Cosmiques Arete to warm-up - both fun little easy AD climbs that will get the lungs going and let you get your bearings up there.

Start to gather conditions info and go from there - on rock you have the Roi du Siam, Lepiney, Midi South Face, Contamines, Pyramide Tacul routes. On ice/mixed, Chere could be in but likely to be dry and tricky. Migot Spur / Forbers Arete can also be good around mid July.

Something like Dent du Geant or Kuffner Arete are two day jobs and once you are in the groove would be a great target for a first trip to Alps HVS leader.

Good luck.

It's a mighty long way from single pitch HVS at the Auchinstarry Quarry to the Kuffner.  In my opinion, this is the sort of sandbag advice that causes British climbers to underestimate the Alps.

I noticed that the Kuffner is on your wish, which suggests that you haven't actually done it yourself.

Try the Cordier Pillar on the Grand Charmoz, 22 pitch at about VS/HVS - great route (ab the route to decend - dont go over the aiguilles!.  Frendo Spur also great - best to do this in one day starting early.  Papillons Arête  D+ and also the Contamine-Vaucher route on the Aiguille De Peigne - TD 400M (The ab of the back is a pretty spooky though)

Chére Couloir on the Tacul: D-/D, grade 4 ice, rap the route

Albinoni-Gabarrou on the Tacul: TD, grade 4 / 5 ice - great but long route

Before you do any route - acclimatize - or you will regret it!! The Dome du Miage is a good one for this or the standard route of Mont Blanc du Tacul

Cordier pillar VS? really.

These are really routes for an "Alpine newbie"?

Cordier Pillar is never VS/HVS. Perhaps in old money but they were made of tougher stuff back then. We only got through 20 pitches & we definitely had a couple of pitches of E1 without ever getting as far as the top crux 6b pitches. Not a good suggestion for an 'alpine newbie' at all. Nor is Gabarrou-Albinoni for that matter as for starters its a autumn/spring/winter route and not one to do in July.

If you can't give sensible or realistic advice then perhaps it's better not to give any. 

Wow!

No. Unless it is one you are trying to kill.

I did the Cordier Pillar about 20 years ago, when I was leading E2/3 solidly, and I had 4 or 5 alpine seasons behind me. It is no way VS/HVS (I thought it was about E1), and it is a huge and serious undertaking ( I think we did 26 pitches up and 16 abseils down). It was utterly epic.

It is absolutely not a route for an alpine novice.

Steve

If the weather’s clear get up on the Aiguille Rouge side on one of your first days. You get a great view across to the main range and can get your bearings and check out conditions. Compare the snow/ice cover you can see to pictures in your guidebooks. Melting ice equals increased rockfall and what were summer routes may now be better left to colder months (or have changed since the guide was written eg-Cosmiques). Plus there are some great 3* rock routes in the Ag Rouge. The Alpine Club website has a good Chamomix conditions and recent ascents report as well.