UKH

Heads up on a pretty shocking Panorama tonight, looking at road rage between cyclists and car drivers, that indicates a third of motorists think cyclists don't belong on the road!!??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001dj03/panorama-road-rage-cars-v-bi...

That third of motorists don't belong on the road either.

I wish I found this shocking, rather than just sh*t I have to deal with on a regular basis 😒

Just watched it. Pretty much as expected. Why they had Rod liddle on though escapes me. Just making stuff up as if his status as a 'journalist' makes it OK. Beeb will probably call it balance, but after his piano wire comments you've got to wonder. 

Watched the panorama and thought it did a good job of highlighting some issues despite lacking some depth and explanation of key issues. 

Playing devil's advocate I don't think cyclists do belong on the roads per se - there are inherent difficulties in combining bikes and motor vehicles, especially large lorries and busses etc, and imo the combination should be avoided where possible...  Some roads are more or less suitable for mixed use. Some solutions which I would suggest would be more dedicated cycling infrastructure / wider roads where possible, improved road design where not possible (example from the panorama being the mini roundabout where the guy got knocked off, it was in a weird offset position, of course people are going to cut across it, the road should have been reshaped - the driver was at fault, but the road design contributed imo). Then, if coupled with things like better training for both cyclists and drivers maybe it would be possible to say that both belong on shared use sections of road. 

I too favour the Dutch segregation model.  Indeed, it's the only way you are ever going to get Old Mrs Smith to cycle to Tesco.  It is increasingly the approach in London, but the rest of the UK really needs to catch up.

There are curious islands of it, e.g. the A59 in West Lancashire has a full Dutch setup of separate pavement, cycle path and road in each direction.  When I was a kid I thought this was normal.

The uk is just 50 years behind, we are still using 5-6m wide horse and cart tracks, wedged between high verges and hedges, as trunk roads between towns & villages. No room for pedestrians or cyclists, poor vis, poor drainage, full of holes etc.. there isn't anything good about much of the road network.

To add to that, although we in the UK are significantly behind with our infrastructure, we are consistently, along with Sweden one of the best performers in Europe for road safety so we are clearly getting something right.

Sure, there are dicks on bikes and dicks in cars, but I think what would really help is if all car drivers, unless physically impaired and unable to do so, should have to experience riding a bike in busy traffic to realise how terrifying a close pass can actually be when you are on a bike.

I ride bikes, but I also drive cars and trucks. Because I ride a bike I'm always respectful of cyclists, giving them plenty of room, patience and respect. If someone in a car can't pass cyclists safely or get's frustrated then I think that speaks more about someone's lack of skill as a driver more than anything else. 

If someone in a car can't pass cyclists safely or gets frustrated then I think that speaks more about someone's lack of humanity and sanity as much as anything else. 

Building up the network of off-road cycle infrastructure is a must. And by that I mean properly surfaced (tarmac, not mud or gravel) trails that are free from cars and free from pedestrians walking their dogs on long leads, or off the lead. They have done it in Denmark, Holland and Germany and it seems to work well and lots of people commute by bike as a result.

The reason that many cyclists don't use bike lanes at present is because they are poorly routed, narrow, discontinuous, run across driveways creating great hazzard, often blocked by parked cars, bins, skips, and other obstructions. They are also used by walkers, dogs etc. who seem to randomly walk into the path of cyclists, even those with bells, without being aware of where they are. If they are gravel or mud then you get absolutely filthy and who wants to turn up at work covered in dirt?

I used to have a bike commute that took me past a farm which at certain times of year would move cattle across the road from one field to another. The cows daily commute was scheduled for pretty much the same time as mine. If I was on time I would pass just as the were getting ready to cross, but if I left the house 5 minutes late I would have to sit and wait for the cattle to cross and then acquire a nice brown streak up my back. It was definitely an incentive not to hit the snooze button in the morning.

It's oddly measured by deaths per million inhabitants, not miles driven. Theoretically the Vatican is this safest? 

Low deaths doesn't indicate a functioning system: transit time, congestion, pollution etc would be a better measure. 

I've seen figures that were based on deaths per miles driven - but it was years ago in an Economist article. They noted one reason for UK roads being safe was levels of congestion being high meaning no one is moving very fast! Finland, where I lived at the time, was much more dangerous, but there are no moose to hit here and many fewer days when you are driving on snow and ice!

Are we that behind. Every newly opened bypass etc that I drive on has dedicated cycle lanes etc.Look at the new link round Manchester Airport for example.South Manchester- Alderley Edge( dedicated cycle lanes on by-pass. Congleton by pass .. Dedicated cycle lanes.

Lets get real- its not easy  in an urban environment to rip up and upgrade existing road structures.

New roads --different ball game and cycle lanes etc are now basically included.

Your comments on why many cyclists refuse to use cycle paths certainly strike a chord with me. One of the most egregious examples is just on the Ambleside side of the Brockhole entrance. There’s a number of private drives belonging to multi-million pound   mini-estates with high walls limiting visibility. White lines indicate cyclists must give way where these drives cross the cycle path. No    doubt if/when a car emerges from one of these and takes out a passing cyclist it will clearly be the cyclist’s fault.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1588083876488007680

Note the scooters (at the end) !  

Agreed. If we are trying to get more people to cycle, which would be a great thing then we need to make it as easy and as safe as possible. The stop-start nature of many bike lanes makes it difficult for the less fit cyclist to stick with it since stopping and starting requires a lot of additional effort - hence I am guessing why cyclists are tempted to run red lights. Hopefully the uptake in Ebikes will negate this to an extent.

This.

Comments about Dutch segregated cycle lanes are valid but ignores that Dutch roadies will still cycle on the road, and NL is one of the great cycling nations. I've never cycled there but have a lot in France, Spain and Italy and drivers there just share the road with you, and I am talking about roads analogous to our own, not the huge wide roads with 2m wide margins at the edge.

If someone can't drive without putting other road users at risk, be it motorcyclists, cyclists, horse riders or pedestrians, then they lack the competency to drive. What is missing from the entire discussion is the acknowledgement that driving has an absolutely fundamental element of social responsibility. A lot of UK drivers would do well to reflect on that rather than thinking that paying 'road tax' absolves them of it. 

I agree - Liddle was appalling...

One thing odd i only noticed after moving to Lyon, where i live in the centre, was the difference in the level of local urban traffic compared to where i lived in London. It is much much less and this is comparing a city centre to suburban london. Maybe due to high density living people live nearer to their work and schools so less need for a car. There is a primary school right beside us and school related traffic is zero, all the kids walk or cycle to school (often with their parents).

The bicycle was invented in 1817, and the car wasn't invented until 1886.

Ergo the bike was first - by a looooong way !

I agree with your supposition regarding the two types of transport needing separate routes.

But it's cars that are the interlopers, not bicycles. For that matter horses and horse-drawn vehicles were around before that, so they should have priority as well.

Now let's ban all cars from the routes that were cycled on for 69 years, and that were ridden on horseback for centuries beforehand, and someone can build special routes for cars only. (Just like the motorways we have).

There are some here

https://etsc.eu/wp-content/uploads/PIN-Flash-38_FINAL.pdf

For cycling deaths per km we seem near the top of the list

Perhaps is the average Brit cycled 10x as far (to bring us in line with The Netherlands) it would help and given that over 50% of cycling deaths in Europe are amongst the over 65's perhaps commuting and cycling to school could be safer than perceived

Might as well have Katie Hopkins. 

On second thoughts, no, let's not.

In NL unlike UK it is legally mandatory to use a cycle path if provided by a road.  Is there no enforcement of this?

Anybody who has ridden a bike in any Dutch city or Town will understand that this does not happen.

I have done a few cyclying holidays in NL - which are great fun- but I can assure you it can get as hairy there with cars passing you ( and some are just as bad as the UK).

And if you have experienced cycling in Amsterdam-- its a real free for all with cars and pedestrains thrown in to the mix.Can be very unnerving.You have to have your wits about you.

The Dutch advantage is a bit more than its the normal way to get around--- its flat--need I say more.

our council "helpfully" planted a new street lamp smack in the middle of a cycle lane. We also have "speed bumps" where tree roots have lifted the tarmac.

On the whole though cycling around where I live isn't too bad. There are quite a few lessbusy alternative routes you can take and old railways have been converted into cycle routes.

Those lanes on the main road though are a random lottery of hazzards

I don't know but thanks for the info. I guess roadies ride on the paths, though from what I saw around Utrecht and Zeist from a visit years ago they were more like proper roads than the paths we have here.

Yes. Most of the UK is fairly flat. Hills for non-athletic commuters are now no obstacle thanks to e-bikes. 

Re Dutch roads, one thing I have noted when driving through NL is that everyone seems to drive very fast. I've not driven there a lot though.

What people like him and others even more hostile to cyclists need to remember is that the relationship between these two classes of road users is very unequal. Only one of these groups - drivers of motor vehicles - has the capacity to casually kill or maim members of the other group.

I'd sooner cycle across London than on the Grasmere-Ambleside-Windermere road if it's busy.

Like most of life, it could probably be solved by the rule "don't be a dick".

Drivers definitely need to take responsibility for driving safely, being patient, and not endangering cyclists.

Cyclists need to be considerate, obey the law, and take responsibility for their own safety too.

The majority of drivers and cyclists probably behave reasonably but that doesn't lead to clicks on websites and revenue from advertising. There are so many headlines in our local online paper just designed to wind people up and get them clicking on to a page. This fuels aggression between people which is unhelpful in most situations.

Being unable to pass a cyclist and getting frustrated is a natural reaction and nothing to do with humanity.

Often, especially out in the dales there is no safe way to pass because the road is too narrow and I drive a large van. Pottering along at 15 mph trying to get to my next job is very frustrating. Most cyclists on these roads will pull over and let me pass when safe to do so, they get a cheery wave as I go past and once I'm in front a flash of my hazard lights to say thank you.

A minority though are militant buggers who because they have a right to be there position themselves that there is no way you can pass and carry on at their own speed delaying everyone else. These are the ones I get frustrated with.

We all have to share the roads and the only way we can do that is by being civil and kind to each other.

A minority of people in the cycle camp and a minority of drivers too going out of their way to be dicks spoils it for everyone. 

No it's not! I've just checked and am very pleased to see the CIA World Fact Book still has the same description of the UK's geography: "mostly rugged hills and low mountains; level to rolling plains in east and southeast." https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/united-kingdom/#geography

I write this still sat in my sweaty cycling clothes having commuted home from work which includes 267 mtrs of ascent in 15.86 kms.

I’ve started cycle commuting again recently. Whilst I’ve always been a leisure cyclist, the vast majority of my cycling being Monday to Friday, 7-8am and 5-6pm, in and out of a major city (Manchester) is new.

My observations:

Still a very long way to go on infrastructure. I’m comfortable cycling in traffic, but there are still roads where I would be happier on separated cycleways.

I see lots of bad driving, lots of inconsiderate driving, but little that I would describe as malevolent. I’ve only had to take serious evasive action once so far commuting.

Something needs to be done about Deliveroo. These guys give cyclists a bad name. Most are not technically cyclists though, virtually are riding electric bikes that appear to fail all three criteria for a road legal electric bike. All are unlicensed, illegal electric motorbikes.

Other side of the Peak, this is exactly my experience - mainly around Chesterfield. Coming home tonight, one person came past me fast and much closer than was necessary, but two or three drivers hung back and didn't try and bully past me when they probably could have done with out actually pushing me into a ditch! I try to wave or thumbs up all those who wait for me like that. 

I'm not watching that, it'll just piss me off.

I know a couple who are like this and they drive me spare, though they don't really speak to me anymore thanks to my honest way of expressing my view of their behaviour. 

100 times this. It really shouldn't be difficult.

The difference is that dick drivers might kill me because their innate dickness has been further dickified by dick cyclists. Except that thanks to dick driving, exacerbated and spurred on by c**ts like Rod Liddle and James Martin, I don't ride on UK roads anymore, I clog them up with a car instead.

One of the most egregious examples is just on the Ambleside side of the Brockhole entrance. .

Ive driven that section many many times but only cycled it a few . Whoever designed all those cycle lane markings was clearly about to retire and also hated cyclists . It’s mostly non sensical and If you hate cyclists provably quiet amusing 

If you cannot see past your relative petty frustrations and realise that there is a massive asymmetry in the risk in your big van and the cyclist without 3 tonnes of armour then I argue there is something wrong with your humanity.

You are right that we need to be kind to each other and behaving like a dick isn't the answer. However, you must admit a cyclist behaving like a dick doesn't usually imperil anyone very much except themselves whereas a driver behaving like a disk imperils all around them.

It sounds like you manage your own frustrations quite well - in my experience you lose nothing waiting for bikes that you wouldn't either lose to traffic ahead or make up anyway.

One way to look at it is: if they weren't out on their bikes they might well be out for a leisure drive pootling in front of you and then you'd be worse off (and so would everyone else).  A person on a bike is doing everyone in a car a favour.

Getting frustrated but not acting based on your frustration endangers no-one. As to Dax's humanity, his posting history would suggest he's a thoroughly decent sort.

Pretty sure this is only true in certain circumstances that are signposted. In most cases cyclists are not mandated to use a cycle path.

In my experience, whether this is true or not depends on the type of road / journey you are on. If it's a stop start one with lots of traffic lights and junctions then you're probably right and not over-taking a cyclist has little impact on time.

If it's a long narrow country road where you're going 5-15 miles with no traffic lights or roundabouts or busy junctions, then you can truly get stuck behind cyclists and it doubles or triples your journey time, which is the definition of inconvenient, especially if you're on the clock. If there isn't a steady flow of traffic but just the odd car now and again, I don't think it's too much to ask for the cyclist to pause/slowdown in a parking spot or layby to let the vehicle(s) safely pass.

PS I cycle and drive so can obviously say anything on this matter. 😂

Which is why I hand back until its safe to pass or they realise someone is following and pull over so I and those behind me can pass. The petty part is Mr (or Mrs) I have a right to be here and so I'm going to block this road by cycling in the middle of it and screw everyone else. 

In my experience as Eliot above said, it depends on the roads and the delay, a single delay, no problem, multiple delays or a militant wanker can mean not getting to the last job site in time and having to do a 2 or 3 hour round trip the next day to finish off. 

Yes! I'm glad someone else said that so I don't have to sound about 30 years older than my actual age! Absolute menace to pedestrians, cyclists and motorists up here in Glasgow.

I'm genuinely baffled by how people will dangerously rush past me to get to the queue of traffic waiting 20m ahead, only for me to roll past them 30 seconds later. What did you achieve by that, other than endangering someone? 

People driving straight into advanced cycle boxes pisses me off too. 1)You have legally done the same as going through a red light. 2)Those boxes are there to enable cyclists to get going across junctions safely before cars start screaming past them and left-hooking them. By creeping into the advanced box you are endangering cyclists for a gain of 5m. What I like to do is get right in front of them, give them the eyes, and then pause on green for a good few seconds. Not saved you any time there, has it mate. Stop being a dick. 

Not as much a menace as cars etc that kill or seriously injure a 150-200 every year in Glasgow.

I find traffic that delays me when cycling or driving is usually cars, buses, vans & lorries.

I just find it embarrassing when I'm cycling on a clear road but drivers can't pass safely, and pull over, or even get off and wait on hills, and let everyone get on their way.

It must cost me, oooo I don't know, a minute or two extra on a three hour ride!

Lots of cyclists, in fact I would say most I come across do this, and don't run red lights either. Unfortunately the few bad apples spoil it for everyone. 

I'll sometimes run red lights if it's safe to do so; it's safer sometimes. For instance a pedestrian crossing where the pedestrian has crossed already and there is no one else there, or a junction with good visibility where there are no cars coming. I can either stop and let a load of cars pile up behind me, who will all rush off whilst I'm trying to get going, or get out their way and safely across the junction before they get the green race light. It isn't always black & white 'oh cyclists ignore red lights, they're a BAD cyclist'. Sometimes breaking the law or highway code make things safer for cyclists, and when I'm faced with loads of 1 ton lumps of metal flying around, I will absolutely and unapologetically take the safest option for me, 100% of the time, whether that fits within the law or not.  

Aye, obviously..... And I most certainly was not moaning about being held up for a couple of minutes by cyclists. 

I've recently been cycling a bit in and out of the south of the city after about 6 months away from the sport and I've been quite surprised at some of the improvements.

By this I mean existing cycle lanes so poorly designed at certain junctions they were either dangerous or encouraged dangerous (even if technically right) cycling seem to have been re-routed for the better.

Good to hear things are improving, my commute has acquired some painted lanes which actually help even though it's just paint.

And if the vehicle you didn’t see as you jump the lights makes you paraplegic or dead is that OK? You are part of the problem as to why the majority of drivers dislike cyclists

But as  only 4% of collisions, that are as a result of jumping red lights, involve cyclists shouldn't they dislike other motorists  more? 

I regularly find myself shoving 3.5 tonnes of flying metal at 50mph on 30mph roads. I sincerely hope I never cross paths with you because the results would be very messy. 100% of the time.

No, motorists dont like cyclists because sometimes they 'get in their way' and other times they go a lot faster than them while they sit in traffic. It's nearly always one or the other. 

Anyone who has a problem with what I said, i would wager that you never/rarely cycle on busy roads, and therein lies the problem.

I'm not saying i go screaming through every red light with reckless abandon. I will do so if I am sure it is safe to do so. If I am sure that I am not putting myself or anyone else in danger. The same as a pedestrian will cross a road if they have looked both ways and determined that it is safe for them to do so. Do you want to run them over too? 

I am a driver and a cyclist and to be honest, if you have a problem with cyclists, then gfy. If everyone cycled everywhere then the world would be a fantastic place. You make nothing better by getting behind the wheel of a car. Cyclists are awesome, every one of them. 

The modern 'safety' type bicycle with steering front wheel, chain and crank drive, was invented and on the roads by 1885, although there were many other types of bicycle including the Penny Farthing that shared the roads with horse drawn traffic since 1817. Cycling as a sport started to become popular onwards from 1868.

The car was patented by Carl Benz in 1886 but did not become popular until 1908 with the advent of the Model T Ford.

Car drivers seem to have totally forgotten that most of the road routes we now enjoy in cars were originally made for horses and carts and that bicycles had use of the road a long time before the car was even a thing.

Even the tiny minority who give cyclists a bad name?

The worst cyclist is better than the best driver. And I say that as someone who is both.

Nah, that mindset helps nothing or no-one. Almost as bad as "Cyclists shouldn't be on the road" etc. 

If you're an arsehole on the road you're exactly that, bike, car, van, whatever and a danger to yourself and others.

You are both the worst cyclist and the best driver? Amazing.

Going back to the documentary I was struggling to get my head around the "cycling vigilante" guy that makes a point of sending his camera footage to the police and allegedly has had hundreds of drivers convicted.

"The trick to catching drivers is to not be seen" or words to that effect. I really hope he was talking about his camera! 

In this perceived 'war' between cyclists and drivers, drivers dont like bikes because of impatience and jealousy. Bikes dont like motor vehicles because they make impatient decisions which put cyclists at risk of serious injury or death on the regular. Who is the baddy in that lineup? There might only be 'one or two bad eggs' but when you're cycling regularly on busy roads, you encounter them bloody regularly. Not a week will go by without a car cutting me up, left-hooking me without indicating, opening their door straight into me, needlessly passing far too close, etc. So forgive me if I seem standoffish; my diplomacy on the matter was ground out of me long, long ago.

I saw a cyclist dying on the ground on Ringinglow Road in the summer. The comments on social media and the local news were as you expect: cyclist-bashing, victim-blaming, "shouldn't be on the roads", "one less cyclist to worry about", etc. Not much of a mention of the fact the driver is facing death by dangerous driving for almost certainly speeding in a residential area. Last year I walked past a cyclist dying under the wheels of a tipper truck. 

There is only one loser in a war where one side is in a metal box of armour which can travel at great speed and switch someones life off with a step on a pedal.

OK fine, if you've been that unlucky when cycling I'm sorry you've had to see things like that, nobody should. Or have it happen to them obviously

I'm still not convinced militancy and rage is going to solve anything, 

Personally I'd love to see much harsher penalties for for dangerous behaviour on both sides, along with education of course. Especially for things we have total control over and can plan for, such as cycling in the dark/poor visibility with no lights (absolute pet hate of mine).

How on earth these would be enforced I have no idea though. 

If a driver is caught being a bellend, they should get points off their license or be given the opportunity to attend a cycling proficiency course, similar to speeding. You'll never see someone who cycles drive dangerously around cyclists but you'll see that behaviour from plenty of people who haven't been on a bike since they were 12. 

One of the biggest problems is that road laws have been designed with motor vehicles in mind and often aren't appropriate for cyclists. Hence why they tend to break them a lot. The dream would obviously be complete segregation but the current cycling infrastructure is abysmal and in a lot of cases I will choose the road over a cycle track. 

Councils claiming they have *so many* miles of cycle lanes when they allow cars to park in them is an absolute joke. They're virtually useless and, if anything, more dangerous at that point.

I agree with the rest of your post but that's nonsense. 

As a cyclist I will happily hold my hands up and say I've made mistakes around cyclists when driving, misread what they're trying to do etc which of course has the potential to be dangerous. 

This, and here it always does seem to be Deliveroo riders with the big green boxes. No lights, riding fast on pavements, riding up cycle lanes the wrong way and legally questionable e-bikes are fairly typical round here. I actually pushed one of these guys off when he rode onto the pavement and brushed me as he went by. The ones who ride like this must make the pavements a very unpleasant place for elderly people.

Part of the problem is accountability, they're all on zero hours contracts with no boss to complain to. I worked as a cycle courier years ago and every complaint phoned in to base was seriously investigated. Many were from wankers who just hated cyclists but the less socially responsible riders were soon identified and didn't last long. I do have a friend who does deliveries with Uber or Just Eat, he doesn't ride like an idiot and is a very active cyclist.

How to make friends and influence people?  Sure they are in the wrong but I'd worry about doing this in front of the wrong person who then decides to escalate the encounter, and as has been said ad nauseam it's the motorist in control of the big metal killing machine here.

I used to ride antique replicas, penny farthings, circus trick bikes including unicyles, backwards, whilst juggling. I was a pretty skilled cyclist. Despite this, on road bikes, I'd been forced into ditches, completely blinded at night by full headlights, slipped off on diesel spills, cut up endless times, yet I kept going. However, one day I pretty much gave up road cycling (soon after a colleague died on his bike), after one 15 minute journey home from work, where a bus driver and a lorry driver separately would likely have killed me if I hadn't instinctively reacted to a suspicion they hadn't properly seen me, despite my right of way. It was a final straw I guess. I'm very careful walking along busy roads without pavements at times these days but still happy onsight climbing.... just too many severe objective risks caused by careless and dangerous driving on the roads.

I think we need better separation of vehicles and bikes and pedestrians in some busy urban areas, more urban centres where vehicles are access only, and priority to pedestrians, then bikes, then cars in most quiet residential areas. Then we need a good hard look at additional possibilities for footpath links (including paved verges where a path just ends at a road) and cycleways/bridleways in the countryside. In the meantime the government's aim to get millions more people cycling looks doomed to failure due to the impact of hundreds of thousands of near misses and even more needless deaths.

Yes to all of that, but I'd like even more to see a very hard look at cultural attitudes to road use, transport and in particular attitudes to othering cyclists and where it came from, at a governmental level. Obvs it's not going to happen with the current lot and while the Murdoch/Rothermere/etc media are running everyday narrative.

This is an ever popular topic to chew over, and I've got skin in the game as someone who relies on my bike to get to and fro from work.  There's a lot to be said on both sides about jumping red lights, must get in front, poorly designed cyling infrastructure, why aren't you in the cycle lane, bikes with no lights etc etc...but instead I'm going to post about the people who just seem to hate us.

You know the ones, you get a couple of them every week if you cycle a lot, the agressive engine revving, the needless close passes, the shouted comments out the window (which you can never understand as they are going too fast)...no provocation, plenty of road room, everyone could have just smiled and gone about their day but for some reason these characters decide to use the power imbalance to belittle, humiliate, threaten and endanger us. 

I just don't get it.

Anyway looking forward to watching this tonight with a couple of beers while I do my ironing for next week!

Geeting on for 80% of kids cycle to their secondary school in The Netherlands, I'd be surprised if it was as high as 8% in the UK. As others have said people who have some understanding of what it is like to cycle tend to be more considerate  Also the knowledge that your children, grand children, nieces etc. might be amongst the people cycling should affect those who drive aggressively/thoughtlessly

One of the few things you have said I agree with, in my world anyone but an emergency vehicle parking on a cycle lane would have their vehicle towed and crushed. I would do the same for parking on double yellow lines too. 

Question: Why don't parents want their children to cycle to/from school ?

Answer: Because of the dangerous drivers.

Question: Who are these dangerous drivers ?

Answer: Parents taking their children to school.

Sad but I suggest mainly true. When school is out the roads are generally clear, and far too many drivers taking their children to school are seemingly in a blinding hurry to either continue to work or get back home. Not only are they not concentrating on the road, but they are also setting a bad example to their children for when they get into a car. These children have zero road experience, but do have a sense of arrogance regarding anyone on two wheels or two feet, which they have learnt from their parents.

The answer - put traffic wardens and police on duty at random schools in an area, and book every single parent who parks on the pavement or zig-zags, for no matter how long - after all they are parking where it's just plain dangerous for everybody else's children when they do so. When these selfish idiots have lost their licences their children will have to walk or cycle to school, and maybe they (and their parents) might understand that a driving licence doesn't give someone the right to risk other people's lives.

Also how about...drumroll...we stop this ridiculous free market competition thing with the schools whereby parents can choose to send their kids to school 30 minutes car drive away, and shock horror kids go to schools within walking distance of their homes.

Well watched it and I think the only thing I learnt, which I probs knew already, was thank God I don't cycle in London - looks absolutely terrifying!  Good coverage of the issue though and I would hope it would have made some drivers who don't cycle consider things a bit differently.

I then moved on to 54 hours underground which was ace...and then SAS Rogue Heroes which *spoiler* starts off with ACDC "If you want Blood" where's the head-banging emoji when you need it?

Quite agree - it would have the added benefit that the kids can mix with each other after school as well. You know, just like we used to do.

Plus all the time they don't waste commuting to/from school could be spent in more enjoyable ways - or even in doing their homework. Added bonus - they might grow up with an aversion to commuting for hours each day and either get a job close to home or a home close to their job.

I was going to reply to Bobling last night then decided I couldn't really be bothered - but as you pick up his point, here we go... Marketisation of education - getting schools to compete with each other for, in theory at least, the "best" students (in reality, the most middle class students available) began with the Educational Reform Act of 1988. The process has only been deepened really by 34 years of both Tory and Labour governments since. The almost total academisation of the secondary sector in England (and I think Wales as well) being just the most recent and perhaps final step. I don't see any particular signs that an incoming Labour government would really try and limit the education "market" as it now is https://schoolsweek.co.uk/labour-fleshes-out-schools-policy-with-promise-of... We've got to a point where it would be quite unfair to make kids go to their local school because of the socially stratified geography of provision - you get large areas where there are no schools with sixth forms, so if kids want to start in Y7 in a school with natural 'flight path' to A levels, they may well have to go to a school some way from where they live. I'm not sure if its still true - I think it might be, but you could draw a line down the middle of Sheffield and there were no secondary schools in east of the city with sixth forms. Sheffield College is right in the middle, and then all the 11 - 18 schools were in the 'leafy suburbs' of the west. It's similar to the east of where I teach in NE Derbyshire - mostly the ex coal fields of Derbyshire, North Notts and South Yorks, oddly enough areas that voted really strongly for Brexit...

TL: DR don't hold your breath if you think kids should just go to the nearest school to where they live.

Yep, although I'd say that since schools started being judged on progress rather than attainment, there are much 'better' students than white middle class

Perhaps, in some areas, at the moment, for reasons you outlined, but some of those can quickly be sorted, a school that is currently 11 to 16 could start a sixth form next year. The sites chosen for new school building is a bit more long term, but three out of the four secondary schools in Carlisle have been built in the last decade. 

I agree with you that there is no appetite for change, but seeing 12 year old kids standing at a bus stop outside one school so they can get on a bus for 45 minutes to go to a different one isn't about fairness, it's back thread that featured  Dianne Abbott's parental choices. She might want a fair education system, but when it comes to her children she wants (what she thinks) is best for them. 

Which would account for the success of some of the inner London schools where you see figures like 45 different first languages spoken by students. But although schools fight to improve their progress stats (something I still struggle to get my head around as it seems what we're trying to achieve is a position where, to borrow from Garrison Kiellor, all the children are above average!) but simple exam results seem to be what interests parents most. And with outcomes, there is still a strong correlation between socio-economic class and attainment. 

I've visited a couple, some of the kids who are classed as disadvantaged was also quite an eye-opener 

Well it looks like most schools are failing as a significant majority of schools are below average. 🤔

Probably, but in my experience the number interested in progress is increasing. The other major factor is the OFSTED grade, which will now depend on progress not attainment. I can think of several schools that were good/outstanding for years due to their attainment being above average, but have now been downgraded because their progress is average/below average. Some parents aren't too bothered but many are. 

I've been involved in the data for dozens of schools. If you break all of them down and look at the expected  progress of the micro populations based on gender, ethnicity, parental education etc. the three year average is virtually identical for all. There are often significant variations between subjects within a school, but the difference between schools is negligible. 

Can you explain that a bit more? - I don't think I understand your point properly. Are you saying that different groups, say poorer and richer kids or girls and boys, are making the same amount of progress in the same subjects? And that there isn't much difference between different schools? 

Sorry, what I was trying to say is that a schools P8 score is based on expected progress from KS2, but no account is made of things like gender, ethnicity etc. If you do take those things into account, all schools end up pretty close to 0. There are plenty of examples where there are seperate boys and girls schools in the same area. Invariably the girls school will have a P8 score about 0.4 higher than the boys, but this just reflects the national average. Even some of the outliers with P8 scores of over 1 like the Star Academies, aren't IMO making any more than average progress given the type of students they are teaching. I don't think this is too surprising most secondary schools will have 50 to 80 teaching staff.  In all the ones I've been involved in a few will be inspirationally brilliant, most will be working hard and doing a good job and a some will be struggling. This can lead to pupils making more or less progress than expected depending on which teachers/subjects they have/choose within the school, especially in smaller departments. So, in one school, as an example, the progress in Art might be significantly above average, but  this will invariably be cancelled out by the struggling Psychology teacher. 

I have altered my commute to be around 90% gravel and trails. I arrive at work filthy but it is a small price to pay IMO. 

My route is all national cycle network but it hasn't stopped me being physically assaulted when I stopped to let an old man past, verbally abused on a regular basis and numerous dog incidents including one that attached itself to my foot. 99% of folk are fine but if you cycle enough you encounter plenty of the 1%.

Attitudes towards cyclists are appalling and the media has a big part to play in this. Of course you get bad cyclists also but most of us are just trying to get from A to B and the putting of one group against another by the media just does more harm than good.

The culture in the UK is undoubtedly that the car is the ultimate mode of transport and cycling to most people is naff, to put it bluntly, and just not an option.

In the context of 40 years of doing almost nothing to prevent climate change, the lack of a significant move away from motorised transport is one of many examples where we have been unable or unwilling as a nation to change the way we live. 

The general animosity towards cycling ought to incomprehensible, given not only climate change but the obesity crisis.

Public attitudes are fickle, IMO. Somehow the idea of some people getting around on a bicycle seems to make other people very angry indeed!

Twitter has just served up, on cue, a video of hundreds of climate activists on bicycles at Amsterdam Airport being chased and arrested by police for blocking private jets.

That just about sums up the point we've reached.