UKH

Not trying to engage in an argument here, but, having walked the length of the Nesscliffe crag, I was impressed by some of the almost impossible and beautiful lines there. However, I also noticed many other lines, not in any guidebook, that could be established if bolting was allowed.... Thoughts anyone as to whether it's permissible? Please try not to get subjective about this, as I'm searching for an objective reason (soft sandstone and its drawbacks accepted) as to why not. 

It seems a pity that more people are not using the crag as its a wonderful venue, my guess is that it's a 'hard lads/lasses' crag and long may it stay that way.

You're 11 days late 

meaning?

In the last 20 years there has been around 10 new routes added to the crag, some of these were probably thought to be impossible lines back in the day, though Nick Dixon has probably tried most obvious lines (plus he is still going well and spanning several decades of new hard routes at the crag!).

Bolting would leave nothing for future climbers to push their nerve and skill on and as seen from the last few years you just need the right person with the right skill set to have a go at these LGL. You never know you yourself might put up a new route in the future.

Hows this for objective.
If you want to do any of these attractive unclimbed lines in perfect safety, top-rope them. 

Just because it seems impossible now, doesn't mean it'll be impossible in 10, 20, 100 years. 

If you told the climbers of the late 18th century that average skilled climbers would be climbing up the centre of the Cromlech faces they'd think you were barmy. 

No, bolting nesscliffe is not okay. I’m not sure why you’ve introduced objective/ subjective criteria into this as that’s not the way consensus is reached - objectively you could ab down and could drill into the rock and the bolts could/ maybe be okay. Here’s some reasons why that would be totally unacceptable.

1. They would get chopped and leave a mess. There’s no ifs about this.

2. There are solid trees and top rope anchors pretty much the whole way along nesscliffe. If you want to climb a route without risk there is a perfectly viable way of doing that, which doesn’t require permanently damaging the rock.

3. The reasons as stated above about preserving possible new routes for the future. A new e10 was established fairly recently - this wouldn’t have happened if it has been bolted and the resource for possible hard trad is worth preserving. 

4. Nesscliffe is not appropriate to be turned into a sport destination. Firstly, the rock wouldn’t cope with the traffic (see kynastons), secondly the sandstone is absolutely not 100% reliable.

Is that enough reasons? And this coming from a boulderer/ top roper who won’t ever take up the trad challenge at nesscliffe. 

Basically, don’t bolt nesscliffe, thank you. 

Would be interested to hear from the downvoters- do you think nesscliffe should be bolted? Imo you can just go down the road to llanymynech if you want to clip bolts. 

It's annoying when people insinuate that trad is elitist. Theres absolutely tons of bolted sport in the uk. Why should we provide sport climbing at the expense of trad?

Bolting is totally arbitrary; if you want to climb just for the moves without any danger, you can toprope most things as others have said. No one is preventing you from doing that. If you bolt rock, you have taken something away from people who want to climb it for more than just the movement. 

At a crag with easy access to the top and plentiful trees for top-rope anchors, the only real justification for bolting is to be able to claim you've led a route, rather than simply free climbed it. All other factors, including convenience and safety, are very comparable.

I get the fact that a tight top-rope provides assistance, and that leading will (largely) eliminate that possibility, but when it comes to having to bolt an easily top-ropeable line I think the insistence on having to be on lead to claim any kind of 'valid' ascent is detrimental to the health of our sport. On limestone crags that cannot easily be accessed from the top, or which overhang too much for convenient top-toping, the story is different and more complicated.

My suggestion would be to go ahead and top-rope lines that currently have yet to be led, and to record them in guidebooks as TR lines, therefore providing similar info and incentive as if they had been bolted.

I'd be curious to see, one day, a comparison of the amount of sport crags/routes etc and trad crags/routes etc in the UK, I've always wondered which is more accessible in general. My suspicion is trad but honestly could be wrong.

I think the main objective reason not to bolt the crag is the strength of feeling within the community that this would be destructive and wrong. But, it's nice to look at lines and daydream.

Might be impossible to you now but they might not be to a strong youth in 20 years time. As said above, if you fancy a go no one is stopping you at top roping them, very easy to set up at Nesscliffe and very common practise there. But please the rock alone as there's enough fixed ironmongery as is.

Silly point that though, they're really not the same thing are they?

I very much enjoy leading sport routes, top roping does nothing for me... 

I only ever top rope something if I'm working a route and don't want to knacker myself out falling and having to climb back up again.  Just isn't the same as leading a route...

Not making any contribution to bolting Nescliffe mind.  Though I would say that it doesn't sound like good rock for bolts, which is the strongest argument against it IMHO.

Suspect the downvotes are for tone rather than content.

Oh the irony of your username

And I thought I was being quite civil, considering someone is suggesting bolting nesscliffe - my first response was a lot shorter but with a lot more expletives! 

If I recall correctly, this is the "system" on Southern sandstone, where routes are either top roped or soloed. A route labelled NS is one that has been top roped "clean" (no weighting the rope) but not lead.

Pete, 

I'm not advocating that the crag should be bolted, its merely a discussion and hopefully, a note to all  that the place shouldn't be bolted. Re read my post.

Read my post properly, I'm not advocating bolting, keep your expletives for your self.

Stupid remark, I'm not advocating bolts. Read the post again.

I agree.

Mine too and the rock would get quite worn and those potential bolts may get chopped out and re placed with more bolts.  

Its not about me, its about the rock and why we should or shouldn't bolt, read the post again, but properly.

I used to run a philosophy club in the school I worked in. Every year the kids wanted to discuss the existence of god.  I realised after a while that although it's a futile thing to discuss everyone needs to come to that conclusion themselves by discussing it at least once.

I agree.

I agree.

Good points, but I don't advocate bolting.

Hehehe.  Put the dummy back in your mouth.  The only stupid remark was your OP.

The answer to your question is bleedin' obvious to everyone except, it appears, you.  It's an idiotic question and deserves a bit of light ridicule.

Anyway, how's your thread going?

No need to get shirty, I'm merely creating a discussion point, not advocating that it should be bolted. Here we've seen many reasons for not bolting and given alternatives to bolting such as top roping or maybe just dream on...

Absolutely!

What did you mean by '11 days late'?

I'll certainly not be putting up any routes at Nesscliffe as the post is not about me, its about the crag, but thanks. However, I agree with your points. 

How's this for observation, read the post properly, its not about me, its about the crag!

He means April fool, fool.

It gets funnier though - I've just clocked that you're the friendly face of none other than a DofE course-running commercial organisation.  Your blurb talks about "professionalism".  Coming on a climbing forum asking about if it would be ok to bolt natural grit and then getting narky when people say that it's obviously not ok...isn't the highest gloss professional finish?

It was about asking if bolting was permissible, therefore stimulating discussion on the matter so it’s easy to come to the conclusion that you were in favour of it as why would anyone with half a clue want to stir up trouble? Given that the debate has been had over and over and over again about bolting certain rock types, certain venues etc with little bit of research on the subject and you’d have quickly found that it’d be a flat ‘no’ from pretty much everyone as it’s a long established ethic. Even something as simple as reading the BMC’s local bolting policy would have been a start.

Are you for real? Your original post says you were looking at nesscliffe and the unclimbed lines and then looking for people to give you “objective” reasons NOT to bolt, i.e the implication is ‘can you provide a reason NOT to bolt as I am thinking about bolting the unclimbed lines.’

Then you get shirty when people who care for the place clearly state the reasons NOT to bolt the place as you requested - what did you expect? If you knew it wasn’t bolted for a reason and wanted to maintain the status quo why ask the question? What  was the point of your original post then? Numpty. 

Read the post you idiot. I didn't ask if it was ok to bolt natural grit. 

Oh no! Another idiot running down yet another rabbit hole, get a life nob! Read my post properly!

Oh, so I'm not supposed to write anything that might stir a little emotion?! Get a life. What's up with you literary NIMBY pretenders? 

How many people need to say that your OP implies you want to bolt, before you think that maybe you didn't phrase it the way you think you did?

I think you're allowing yourself to be wound up, Mr Venture?

If there's a number on their website, why don't you call to arrange a meeting with whoever runs that company? Never assume, it makes an ASS (out of) U(and)ME 

This is turning into a classic, slow motion car crash thread.

Just walk away.

I'm not assuming. You are Jerry Dolan. And the company is yours.

So, no, won't be calling!

You do realise this is troll behaviour? The original post clearly implies that you are thinking about bolting, stating that it would be nice if it were busier and you want to know if it’s okay to bolt it. You then claim it was a well intentioned query against bolting nesscliffe, which is then again contradicted by your last statement to me saying you wanted to “stir emotions.”

I’m guessing you’ve got issues in your life that mean you want to create some controversy and get a bit of drama on UKC because none of this makes any sense. Maybe if you spent the time and energy doing some climbing rather than trolling you’d actually be good enough to get up some routes at Nesscliffe…

Get some help mate!

I take it you've not been to Nesscliffe as it isn't natural and it's not grit.

Calm down fella. Keep calling people names and you'll get yourself banned. 

How's about you go back to Ness, throw a toprope down one of these other viable lines you have your eye on that nobody else has noticed in all the years wads have been climbing there, get a mate (or a tripod if you don't have any) to film you climbing it clean, then post us a link to the vid.
Let us know when you have and someone way better than you will be along to solo it shortly.

Lol. Bang to rights. Sandstone. We should be using knitted slings for gear

Having smiled my way through this thread I thought why not let top rope ascents count as a first ascent with naming rights and everything.

The level of difficulty would be similar, just missing the effort to place gear or clip bolts Only thing it wouldn't have is the danger.

And in these days of pre inspection on an ab rope, pre practicing of crux moves you could argue that the ethics of an onsight top rope ascent would be at least as good.

Obviously wouldn't work everywhere but the UK is not short of single pitch crags that would be suitable. 

I did read it properly first time around. Lines might look "almost impossible" (to you I guess) and not in the guidebook. Not sure why your argument is that bolting would make them possible. If they are possible to climb then a Franco Cookson of the future would just go and climb them with a whole lot of pads and ground falls. But what I learned with Nessy is that there's always something in ways of protection, for example on My Piano I found I tiny woodlice downward pointing whole which gave a perfect placement for a terrier which I would have happily take a fall on it. No one else had spotted it even after dozens of ascents. I don't think there's an argument either subjective or adjective for bolts. There's there's the quality the rock, it wouldn't take bolts anyways, it's too soft.

This is exactly how much of Armathwaite was developed. Many of the original climbs were top rope problems given a name and tech grade and recorded as NL in the guidebook, including the FA details. As an obvious spur to future development they were gradually picked off by the more determined/talented/better equipped. I don't know if there are any NLs left but Pete Gunn would know. Thankfully, these test pieces weren't destroyed by unthinking bolting.

Jesus Christ. Mods, I think it's time to lock this thread.

Have to agree with this - apologies for any offence caused to the OP, seemed like you were being disingenuous and you wound me up a bit. Hope you continue to enjoy nesscliffe in whatever way suits (as long as it’s not bolting!), go safe 

"there's the quality the rock, it wouldn't take bolts anyways, it's too soft".
I haven't visited Nesscliff, but as someone who puts bolts in sandstone of all levels of quality all the time, I really doubt thats true. There is almost always an option that will work.

Nesscliffe isn't as soft as sandstone further down the Severn in Worcestershire where I'm originally from - that stuff is quite close to being mud not stone! But definitely parts of Nesscliffe are pretty soft. I've climbed on sandstone in different parts of the UK and in other countries - and it's definitely at the softer end of the spectrum. From memory of my one visit there, Armthwaite in the Eden Valley was quite similar, as opposed to wonderful Torridonian sandstone in NW Scotland.

I'm sure you are right though, if you are willing to drill deep enough and use the right type of bolt I suspect you could bolt it safely enough. 

When I lived in Finland I had an Aussie friend who brought his drill over to help develop sports crags around Helsinki. Simon said it was amazing how hard it was to bolt the granite there compared to the Blue Mountains west of Sydney where he used to develop. He reckoned he could bolt 25 mtr plus routes and a lower off on one battery there but on the piddly little Finnish routes (10 metres is a decent length!) You'd need two batteries and a change of drill bits. But I've climbed a bit in the Blueys and it still seemed harder sandstone than Nesscliffe!

I wondered about this too. If it's too soft for a long resin bolt or suchlike surely it would be too soft for most trad gear to be reliable? And yet its a popular trad venue, is there much evidence of gear ripping due to the softness of the rock?

When I worked at the Glasgow Wall we used to install traverse walls at primary schools. The holds went on with a threaded insert that was resined into a drilled hole. Me and one of the other guys got super slick at it and often did 2 in a day without much trouble. Then one day we turned up at a school with granite walls. It took us the whole day and we had to go to B&Q for extra drill bits!

I've only climbed there a couple of times but I think there might be softer and harder zones - it's a pretty big line of old quarries and different walls feel a bit different. 

Of the couple of routes I've done I remember Batman (HVS 5a) as being softer feeling (the rock, but according to the logbook I thought the grade was soft as well which is a real rarity for me! ), particularly as you top out. I've done Red Square (E2 5b) as well. I don't remember that feeling soft but I do have an ancient blog post that includes a picture of my runners (my wife didn't want to climb so I abbed down afterwards) and it looks like I placed lots of hexes and medium cams and only a couple of nuts. https://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2010/08/so-apologies-for-total-lack-... So perhaps bigger gear seemed sensible for the rock. Nice to see in the UKC votes it's getting lots of support for it's E2 grade - because if it is it's the only E2 I've led onsight in climbing career! :⁠-⁠)

Some routes are bolted already!  In The Court of the Sludgebaron (E3 5c)

A long glue-on bolt is likely to be more secure than the ironmongery currently hammered into routes (including, if my eyes didn't deceive me, six inch nails and a warthog ice piton). Glue-ins are used successfully in places like Frogsmouth Quarry and in soft sandstone in the US. 

I'm not advocating wholesale bolting. In my view the current ethic of top-rope then lead if you feel up to it suits the place. In the longer term, decisions will have to be made about the fixed gear. Some will be allowed to fall out without replacement, like the original first peg on Marlene. Others, if deemed critical, might be replaced by a glue-in as has been done in places like Wintour's, Avon and Uphill.   

The local ethic at Nesscliffe, as summarised by Nick  Dixon in the most recent guidebook, is no more bolts. Simple as that. It’s a special place, unique in the UK, and the ethic is adventurous trad, with top roping an acceptable practice. It is true that some of the fixed gear (ie pegs) might not stand the test of time and might be replaced by long glue-in bolts designed for soft sandstone but this would only happen after discussion with local activists and not result in clip-up sport routes. There’s room for many different styles on UK rock and this is a special place to be enjoyed and protected.

This thread is a shameful pile on! What a bunch of bullies!

I think he’s got off lightly all things considered

I think this is unfair. It takes two to tango and I’ve apologised above if I escalated the dialogue. However, I’d point out that the OP was also quite happy to be aggressive and personal against some other posters, their initial post was provocatively worded and they suggested further down that they’d wanted to stir things up. I take my share of responsibility for not being calm when I responded but I’m not a bully. 

Yes, glue-ins are used in the Calico hills (Red Rocks) where they have been found to work well, even in the softer sections (which can be very soft).
Personally I prefer to use 6"x half inch 5 pieces, which also seem to work well. Sometimes for really soft rock a slightly undersized bit is a good trick.
 

The only thing that has rescued the last three minutes from being a total waste of time has been learning that Ramon placed a pecker on an inverted woodlouse.

I’m concerned about him falling on the terrier. Should the RSPCA be informed? 

Use of canines now fully legit. Have you not seen there’s a sliding scale on the new egrader for how many dogs you use and their breed? Terriers are a good choice - more mobile for micro adjustments to paddage. Puppies provide a little more cushioning so I tend to go for a mixed kennel when it comes to highballs. 

A terrier, slightly better than a pecker... nose facing down, hand placed. It was bomber, not kidding you. 

I would trust any of those bolts and certainly never the pegs, as we have a few break or come out at Nessy. The soft steel ironmongery seems to bond better once starts corroding a bit. A glue in bolt yes could last longer, but what is the longevity of it in such a rock, considering the fluidity of the Nessy routes? Never comes across another crag that looses so many holds/features (flake on my piano...) and gains new ones. I've bolted a lot in my time, and I would classify this sandstone a bit like southern sandstone, leave it alone of ironmongery. That's beside the point it that it would make memorable E5's into average 7a's... But yes I do get point, if you would insist in bolting it, it could be done. A bit like we use to do in the chalk cliffs of Saltdean with 50cm lengths 12mm re-bar hammered in 10mm holes. It did work, it doesn't mean it was a god idea...

The BMC did some tests on long glue in bolts before the rebolting of Frogsmouth and found that they worked fine. The bolts used in the end were from Jim Titt's Bolt Products. Check the website, there's some fascinating stuff on bolts, pegs and stakes! You can dig out the rock with your fingers on parts of Froggy - though it was a bit disconcerting to learn that the pockets at Nesscliffe were created by Masonry Bees. If a bee can dig out the rock... In any case, any replacement of fixed gear at Ness would be up to the local activists and no-one else.

I haven't been to Frogsmouth but looking at the pictures it does look very much like Nessy, so you might be correct if bolts work there then they might work at Nessy too. 

 They work everywhere, we've done chalk but know how to do almost anything. There are 280m long bolts out there in the construction industry.

Sandstone is funny stuff, varying from parts of Pex that are as close to finely grained gritstone as you can get to stuff at Frogsmouth which is reminiscent of Southport beach. There is some pretty good sandstone at Frogsmouth - there is a trad crack, Comet Crack, which takes lots of trad gear but, as an early ascentionist commented, 'You couldn't be sure if any of it would hold in a fall'. So best to be cautious, use neat and tidy footwork and not pull too hard. I remember soloing Wafer Wall at Helsby as a beginner in my box-fresh EBs and wondering if the thin wafers of rock would hold - they did and they're still there fifty years later.

I'm not for bolting but:

When did 100% reliable rock mean it can't be sport climbed? I mean come on that's almost the criteria for bolting it in the UK

Also rock is transient not permanent! 

take kirrie quarry as an example or abroath sea cliffs etc, solid enough sport anchors can be made in any sand stone that is vaguely good enough for trad with anchors that should probably hold falls (in general much better bolts can be placed and to a safe enough level as compared to trad gear). If you should is another matter ofc. Bolts can be varying designs and depths ofc.

I see what you're getting at, which is why when the OP said he was looking for "objective" reasons not to place bolts the fragility of the sandstone was pretty low on my list. I don't fully agree with what you're saying - I don't think many people take falls onto bolts expecting them to rip, therefore implicitly trusting the rock is bomber. Better qualified people than me have said you can place bolts in basically anything, though, so that kind of reinforces what I'm saying - there isn't an 'objective' reason for not bolting as such.

The reason to not place bolts at nesscliffe is therefore subjective and outlined above i.e. to preserve the ethic of the place, which works currently and gives new possibilities for future generations. All rock is transient, of course, but it's not true that all rock is equally durable and turning the super soft sandstone of nesscliffe into a mid-grade clip-up venue would destroy the place pretty quickly. If you look at the damage done to Kynastons simply by increased traffic over the past decade you'll see what I mean. As it stands, I think it works at Nesscliffe now - bouldering for easy access, top ropes if you want to climb up stuff with no danger and can be arsed to rig it (not many people can, which saves wear on the rock), trad/ headpoints for the harder stuff. The issue of pegs/ tat will be sorted on a case by case basis by those with skin in the game. I don't see any need to bring bolts into the equation. 

Haha thanks, theres only 1 NL left but i think Alex Moore will soon have that one (if he beats me to it! )