UKH

Hi all,

I'm relatively new to going out in winter conditions so please forgive my inexperience, but I've seen the forecast for higher tops in the lake District where I live as snow from midnight tonight until midnight tomorrow. Being so early in the season, I'm wondering if more experience Lakeland folks think this will be worth going out for in terms of how much snow there's likely to be on the ground, and if so is it better to go out tomorrow afternoon while it's still falling, or wait until Sunday when it's all fallen? FYI Sundays forecast is no less cold than Saturday's, but no snow. 

Any advice greatly appreciated,

Thanks, Matt.

What do you mean by 'worth going out for in terms of how much snow there's likely to be on the ground'? 

It might be nice to wander around in the snow but it won't bring anything into actual winter condition.

For climbing - no chance, things take a long time to freeze, you need more than snow.

For walking - as you like.

I'm think about going up there for a walk on Sunday, always nice to see some snow. But the ground will be warm currently so I'm not sure it will settle that readily? But always hard to say in autumn. If you are local I'd definitely go out for a walk and enjoy it though! If you go out during the snow coming down on Saturday you can get some real navigation practice in with your map and compass and so on. If you go out Sunday you can probably snap some lovely photos and make those of us less local well jel! 

If it looks like snow is settling up top, strap an ice axe to your pack just in case. You probably won't need it, but better safe than sorry and if you are walking around in the snow, you'll be the one being sensible and properly equipped. 

Looking at the forecast (Keswick, https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2645756) and bearing in mind these are first dustings of snows on top *if* it does settle? -- It'll almost certainly be soft wet snow, like back garden stuff. Not hard crunchy climbable stuff

Go out and enjoy it, but make sure you've boots/gaiters suitable, or you'll get cold wet miserable feet if you walk though soft damp snow. It'll be wet underfoot one way or the other but the boot wetness of soft snow is like a wet path x 100

EDIT: I may be eccentric and on my own on this one? Downvote button is below, use it as you desire

But I'm an enthusiast for Wellies for conditions like this. The cheaper the better as that normally makes them lighter (like Sainsbury's ones, whereas Screwfix Dunlops are too heavy). As long as they have a chunky traditional Vibram-style grip on them not some wiggle pattern, they are surprisingly good on steep ground and wet rock. If you wear them with very thin insoles taken out of a pair of dead trainers (take some when trying them on) they may be warmer than many fabric/GTX walking boots. Paired with suitable 100% wool socks you can have warm dry feet all day and good grip on wet scrambling rock and steep wet grass and snow (can wear microspikes if needed). They should cost you about £10-£15 and every now and again wash them inside and out with hot water and some detol. They dry overnight or quicker somewhere warm. I have various boots from fancy La Sportiva gtx ones to traditional leather stout boots to plastic boots for fully rigid crampons, but in foul weather if you bump into me (even on a grade 3 scramble/classic diff) you'll likely find me in wellies.

Legend has it someone did some of their MIC/WMCI assessment in wellies back in the day..

Legend has it that someone once walked up  Left Wall in their wellies on a rainy day on their MIA assessment as it was then!!

I've been out on the Scafell range and Bowfell today. Snow was occasionally falling but not accumulating. Bitterly cold in the wind. A day for winter clothing, but that's all.

A fair chance that shady paths will be icy in the morning.

Probably the same person 🤣

You might find the tips in the Lakes winter guide helpful: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=1259

A quick conditions report from today. Cockly Pike Ridge goes as a snowed up rock route, and Deep Gill has a water ice in it (and some insitu slightly frozen ladies lacey pants). 

(Photo upload here isn't working, so the FB link below will show you this isn't completely serious but there was a tiny bit of snow up high and definitely dribbles of water ice in Deep Gill!

https://m.facebook.com/groups/345833125602252/permalink/2275764439275768/  )

I know a chap who did the Aonach Eagach in full winter conditions in a pair of wellies. Top footwear.

It’s freezing all week now, so I’m thinking of finding some water ice to take teenage daughter on her first ice trip. She climbs hard, happy in the mountains, but never climbed ice. I was thinking something like Sour Milk Ghyll - any other ideas?

Where were you Tom? I saw a report and pic earlier from one of the MWIS reporters who found lots of water ice on the paths and a sprinkling of snow above Kentmere IIRC.

I doubt you'll get any pitches of ice but I guess you got to be in it to win it. For ideas have a look at C Gully (II) It's a short pure ice pitch followed by a snow gully and a rh finish up another mild ice slope if it's formed.

It's NW facing so I'd recon later in the season if we get sustained cold.

Thanks for the update - ever the optimist, I guess I need to be a bit more patient. Maybe KD is in nick?  ;->

That was Clough head yesterday. Cold last night, -4 just outside Keswick this morning. There will certainly be some slippy paths but it’ll need a bit longer for climbable water ice.

At the start of the season it takes longer for ice to form as the ground water has to cool down from its summer temperature.

Sour Milk Gill takes at least 10 days and maybe 2 weeks of freeze this early in the season unless there is decent snow cover as snow cover powers up the overnight frosts due to the low albedo of snow.

N.B snowfall insulates the ground and prevents it freezing so snow on unfrozen ground retards the freezing process of said ground....

Sour Milk Gill also benefits from a strong Easterly wind as it increases the cooling effect due to that particular routes' aspect

Cheers! I wonder if the dislikes my original question go was because people read the "found lots of water ice..." bit but missed the "...on the paths" bit and thought I was suggesting frozen cascades after a day of frost!  

Not sure if others are using it, but I subscribe to the Winter Climbing Forecast app and their AI is suggesting the vast majority of routes in Lakes won't be in condition by the weekend, with a few higher routes showing as "marginal" (which I've taken to reading as not enough in for me at least to consider it a winter climb). Looks like there should be some fine if chilly hill walking days though. 

Yes, but that's the sunny side ....

The Nokia ones that you could once buy at orienteering events were a fine bit of kit.

Dream on would be very surprised to find any winter climbing in the Lakes at the weekend ( famous last words), suppose if it did snow at least the turf might be frozen caveat* aerated  and fluffy on a North facing crag, it hasn't snowed in the Northern Lakes and water courses are still cooling down, fingers crossed though.

We yomped up Striding Edge and back down Swirral Edge yesterday. There's a dusting of snow and it was pretty well frozen on the tops but no crampons required and there was nothing I saw in climable condition. Lovely out there though.

To the thread in general:

Looking at the BMC temp probes/sensors: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/lake-district-winter-conditions

there only appears to be a single turf sensor on Helvellyn @20cm deep. Given there is normally an approx 1.5 - 2deg difference between 5cm and 20cm turf depth would it be safe to assume the 5cm turf depth temp would be below zero currently as the 20cm sensor is reading 0.3 deg?

Some of the harder mixed things which rely on a bit of frozen turf and an aesthetic dusting could be ok, dependant on how much you value aesthetics.

Absolutely no chance of Sour Milk Ghyll being frozen. It takes a long deep cold spell, unlikely to happen in these times of global warming.

CG is just bare rock currently.

That's interesting - I wonder if there's a deeper problem going on. It's weird that the Helvellyn one shows nearly freezing at 20 cm while Great end which is only 80 mtrs lower is nowhere near even at 5 cms!

They had lots of problems with the Lakes sensors last year didn't they?

From northern Lancashire today I could see a slight covering of snow on Helvellyn and nothing on the higher Scafells. Being closer to the Irish Sea might account for this.

Today's Lakeland Cam pics show a slight dusting on Great End, a bit more on Helvellyn and a bit more still on the Howgills, although not much on anything really:

https://www.lakelandcam.co.uk/

(Note that Lakeland Cam changes daily, so these won't be the pics this time tomorrow. Useful resource / nice site, anyhow.)

There's nothing in the Stirling area, incidentally - I'm just back in from a wander over Abbey Craig and the usual western Munros etc are bare, ditto the Ochils (which I was on in good firm walking conditions on Tuesday). Has been very cold for days here.

Interestingly we now have more snow in NE Derbyshire than in the Lakes! But I guess that's because we are closer to the east coast where the snow showers seems to be most. 

I've driven from Kendal to Penrith and back today. Nothing to see on the eastern Lakeland fella, a dusting on the Howgills, the Pennines look to be whiter. 

I live in Kendal but if life wasn't getting in the way this weekend I'd be driving to the Cairngorms.

We're going to try North Wales, there definitely seems to have been a more snow there, but the forecast isn't calling for as much to fall in the next couple of days as they thought earlier. The turf is going to have to be frozen by now though...?

Oh the joys and angst of being a UK winter climber!

Small covering of wet snow on the Pentlands today but nothing on the Ochil or Lomond Hills. 

More Ochiling tomorrow all being well, in hope of seeing the ptarmigan! Haven't yet seen it but I'm pretty sure I heard it a couple of weeks before Iain Cameron took his photos - but I thought don't be silly, must have been a crow or the wind or something, this is the Ochils, no ptarmigan here...

Its a tarmigan - they are taking the p.      We had a snowy owl on the High Vinnalls once.  OK it was 1963, but locals kept banging on about it for years (up to 2023 by the looks of it)

From E Longsleddale tops today all of the Lakes looked bare but Cross Fell and points south were very white. 

Find it hard to believe nothing will in after a week of sub zero temps and snow forecast tomorrow. As is always the case with lakes winter conditions a good walk out with gear in the pack and anything else is a bonus

Whitehaven harbour is frozen over. There is a puddle under the north face of my house that hasn't thawed for 5 days. The southern flanks of the hills start the day white but rapidly become green as the sun rises. There has been no wind to blow the cold air into watercourses. Clear blue skies. 

North facing ground is likely to be frozen and may even be white enough. Take your whiteometer tm somewhere high, north facing and mixed, you could get lucky.

Inch in Langdale

Snow forecast overnight around Morecambe Bay. Might be up for the north face of Arnside Knott tomorrow.

Scotland's had Central Belt snow overnight - not masses, but a proper covering. Seems quite widespread judging by the football postponements. Have just done a pleasant mile and a half along the road here on the edge of Stirling, but happy not to be on a hill today - skies are grey and it's still just about snowing. From the radar it looks like it might have been quite a narrow band of snow - eg a friend in Nethy Bridge has said the sun's just come out there and it's "stunning". Still very cold generally.

Fell top assessor mentioned yesterday the temps were very low in the valley but + half a degree on the tops so it inverted. We're off to the lakes on Monday for 4 days and hoping for climbing conditions high up. We'll be watching any updates on here and elsewhere over the next couple of days.

The Keswick/Skiddaw webcam (quite Christmassy just now) is a useful way of keeping tabs on the snow level at the northern end of things (admittedly looking at a south-facing slope).
https://www.georgefisher.co.uk/webcam

Heavy snow right down to sea level on the Furness Peninsular in Cumbria this morning - about four inches since daybreak. Looking at the Met Office radar it looks as though the fells are getting it now.

How white are the Bowfell Crags John? 

Snowy in Coniston:
https://www.coppermines.co.uk/webcam/

It's been snowing in Coniston all day, has steadily piled up looking at the webcam (I'm not there just now but it's old family haunts so I've got an interest). Useful collection of Cumbrian webcams (including the Coniston one again) here:

https://www.meteoblue.com/en/weather/webcams/ambleside_united-kingdom_26573...

The Ambleside one is an oddity, with all the house windows blocked off presumably due to privacy issues. Generally (from looking at the rainfall radar too) South Lakes / Furness has been getting proper snow all day, including as far north as the Kirkstone, but Keswick is clear (bright skies in the late afternoon and a snowline 2000ft-ish on Skiddaw) and there's not much at Kendal either (similar to what we have here in Stirling just now).

Drove down langdale this morning with the intention of going for a donder. Turned back just past langdale boulders as couldnt control the car (with 4WD) It was snowing heavily. Headed to thirlmere car park and went up helvellyn. Some snow but nothing to bother.

Got back to car around 2.30 pm and headed south, got to grasmere and couldnt believe how much  snow had fallen. Road blocked ahead what looked like all the way to kendal so turned around and headed north and out to penrith (very little snow) Going over shap summit full on blizzard with M6 Down to 1 lane and still falling hard. More snow tonight according to the forecast.  

Plenty in Kendal. It's been snowing all day, mostly heavily. I played a dads vs kids footy match on the all-weather pitch at the rugby club this morning as the team the U10s were playing declined to venture down the M6/A685, and it was like the Tromso vs Chelsea game when Vialli scored two. Best sledging for years this afternoon.

Thanks, that's interesting - the webcam in those parts earlier must have been deceptive. Ambleside was just now on the 6pm Sky News report (main story) looking very snowy, and (again as reported on the news) there's a Cumbria Police report about traffic problems in South Lakes:

https://twitter.com/Cumbriapolice/status/1731010373950587370

(My Coniston MRT brother-in-law appears to have picked a good weekend to go with his wife to a show in London...)

Major incident declared in Cumbria. Sky News still leading on this, with a live feed:

https://news.sky.com/story/weather-latest-drivers-told-to-only-travel-if-ne...

Lots of pictures on Cumbria Crack:
https://cumbriacrack.com/2023/12/02/in-pictures-snow-blankets-cumbria/#!

Buried, about 6 inches in the valley, road might be impassable, plough hasn't made it yet

Thanks John.

I've just managed to slither back into Kendal having visited family in Ilkley. No snow to speak of east of M6. Lots of stationary traffic and abandoned cars around Kendal. 

Only 6, more like 14 in Torver. At least the plough has made it from Greenodd.

Lots of road closure / emergency centre / gritter info here:
https://cumbriacrack.com/2023/12/02/several-crashes-in-whitehaven-as-cold-w...

Rather worryingly Tony Richards hasn't updated his Lakeland Cam site today - it's a rare day when that happens, hope he's OK:
https://www.lakelandcam.co.uk/

Ah, he has updated now, phew - pictures of a failed attempt to drive back to Coniston from Grasmere - the unplanned overnighter in Ambleside presumably explains why he wasn't able post any pics on Saturday:
https://www.lakelandcam.co.uk/

We've got a good four or five inches just outside Belper. I've just come in from making a seven foot snowman ☃️

I'm not particularly expecting much snowpack consolidation but the fact the ground got a chance to freeze before this dump of snow does make me wonder if climbing conditions could be on this week. We've planned a trek for a couple of days this week from tues, put it into the calendar ages ago but wondering now if we should take the climbing kit instead as we can hike anytime.

We climbed viking buttress today in absolutely Stella conditions. Small amount of unconsolidated snow as you'd expect but solid turf, ice in places and plastered white. Definitely worth a walk up to the mountain crags for turfy or mixed routes. A party climbed gully 1 and said there were some brilliant bits of ice in the gully 

That route is lager than you think

Amused this morning to hear a motorist stranded for 19 hours whinging that the emergency services hadn’t brought him any food or water. What happened to winter preparedness? Are road traffic officers now ‘room service’?

Currently sat with one. They taste better when you've not sat on your arse all day

They should have used an app to order a takeaway and requested delivery.

T.

Indeed. I was impressed with my better half's niece managing to drive home to Coniston from work in Hawkshead yesterday evening - it's not very far but it wouldn't have been straightforward in those conditions.

Make it quick, turbo thaw forecast for Thursday

I appreciate this is a loaded question but....

What's it like in terms of gear?  Is it well protected ( for an ice route)

Thinking of heading there on Tuesday but I've not climbed much ( any?) mixed at all and not for decades.

( I think I may have answered my own question there). Ignore me.  What's the route like....

I've done it a couple of times. Mostly reasonable rock gear from memory - standard IV 5. (The 5 is a well protected couple of moves at the top - good gear in a crack.) 

Many thanks. Trying to decide whether to take Tuesday off work, or even Wednesday....

Go for Tuesday, looks like better weather. We're looking at it Wednesday but wish we had the choice.

We drove from Hawkshead to Ambleside in a speedy 10.5h on Saturday. The road out of Hawkshead, was covered in snow and even slight hills made it impassable for many. People were sticking it in first then razzing it, and getting half way up. The next car in the line would move up, so the stuck car couldn't move down to have a second go. With dozens and dozens of cars doing the same it was gridlock. We took an alternative route. We were in a small convoy, so lots of communal pushing, occasional towing and and encouragement.

Once out of there it cleared up quickly. Got to the A591, which had 30cm of snow in places and more silliness. Abandoned cars all over the road, (where to these people go to?). Two abandoned buses. We followed a snowplough gritter, and it didnt seem to be making much difference. Police and Mountain Rescue were going up and down, a very busy night for them. Big thanks to them. More mayhem in Windermere all the way to Ambleside. We gave a lift to a mountain leader, who seemed to be well equipped and enjoying the snow. Missed our long booked special meal, but made last orders.

I can't remember if I used them or not but on mixed routes I also carry some thin pegs and a couple of hooks (Bulldog and Terrier.) 

It's definitely not an ice route, but I guess you meant more "for a winter climb?" In which case it's ok but when I did it a few years ago for a second time, it was thought provoking and seemed slightly serious in parts. I've come to the conclusion that Lakes winter routes are all a bit harder to protect than Welsh ones. I climbed it the first time in November over 20 years ago. I must have been young and strong and brave, but I also suspect the conditions were very good and it felt like a breeze. Probably a lot more firm snow on every ledge meaning that it was just shorter pulls up steep walls that you had to do. I think that first time was in late November which suggests that the winters were better back then!

There is a picture from Viking buttress and a short write up in this article from a few years back https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/chasing_the_very_bloody_epheme... but compare it to my nice words about Golden Girl Ali (IV 5) in Wales! Have a great time if you do go for it. 👍

well. We decided that Wednesday actually looked best.  Should be properly cold tonight to freeze things back together.  Question is exactly when the warm weather comes in.

I quite fancy No2 Gully TBH or perhaps V- Corner.

Not really slept for two nights and don't expect to slep much tonight...  Too apprehensive.

You still going tomorrow?

Yep, heading up very early from home to get on something mid morning. We're planning to camp next to the tarn for a possible second day if conditions allow. Asuming we opt for the hardshells, I'm in a brick red jacket and my wife wears pea green. See you up there!

Browncove Crags was well frozen today with 1 foot of fresh snow on top. Lots of digging finding secure placements. Adventurous fun.

On my way down from Browncove Crags at noon I passed a couple going up to camp (was that you?), later a lad on his own. Think there might be quite a few of you up there tonight. Hope you enjoy.

Kirkstone pass is showing closed on Google and theaa.com.

Seems unlikely as the webcam looks clear.  Anyone know for sure?

Nope not us, we're heading up in the morning. Thanks for the heads up on conditions tho.

Anyone care to share an opinion if Mardale/Blea Crag will be in condition Wednesday?