UKC

We've been working on some site refreshes. There's now a beta to garner some feedback. So far we've tackled the logbooks area of the site.

We're only currently soliciting feedback in the mobile experience. It works on desktop but we haven't concentrated on that yet, preferring to start with the small-screen experience then flesh that out later for desktop. Feel free to have a look on a computer, and if you have any ideas on what could be added to it don't hold back, but we don't need bug reports for the desktop layout yet, **only mobile**.

You must be logged in to visit the beta.ukclimbing subdomain

If you just want to get to it, this will take you to your own feed if you're logged in:

https://beta.ukclimbing.com/logbooks/0/feed

If you want to read more first see below...

An intro to the ideas behind the changes:

- The hierarchy of the site should be more friendly to newcomers

- The entire ascent database should be searchable

- all route/ascent lists should have the same feel

- They should all be searchable with the same semantics

- They should all be filterable with simple controls

- Information like ascent notes or route descriptions should be more visible

- No functionality should be lost*

*Currently some is not there:

- on route lists of crags you cannot navigate to a sector except by either scrolling the list or typing its name. We'll be making it possible to select the sector, maybe by tapping the sector-name headers

- we're not currently showing hidden ascents anywhere, this is on the todo list. Mainly it's an issue for conditions:

https://beta.ukclimbing.com/logbooks/conditions

- conditions is currently only for UK Winter, others to come

Crags have been moved into their own area '/crags', eg

old:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/

new:

https://beta.ukclimbing.com/crags/stanage_popular-104/overview

We've grouped together everything to do with a user, so you can browse people's ascents, wishlists, photos, forum posts etc all from one place, and it now should be easier to navigate around different users pages you come across.

Users now have a 'feed', which is a chronological list of stuff they've been up to on ukc:

https://beta.ukclimbing.com/logbooks/rob_greenwood_-_ukclimbing-11505/feed

When looking at another's feed you will see events just for that user (ascents, forum posts etc). When you're looking at your own feed, you see events for yourself and all your partners.

Users are now searchable in the main searchbar:

https://beta.ukclimbing.com/crags/search-results/?sort=score&query=alan...

Ascents are now searchable in the main searchbar:

https://beta.ukclimbing.com/crags/search-results/?sort=ascent_date&dire...

All logbooks/wishlists are now searchable:

https://beta.ukclimbing.com/logbooks/rob_greenwood_-_ukclimbing-11505/logbo...

Conditions are now searchable:

https://beta.ukclimbing.com/logbooks/conditions?filter=arose&direction=...

All route/ascent lists have a built-in map, hidden by default but shown when tapping the map icon at the top

Let us know what you think (on your phone!).

All looks fab!

Might be missing how to do this in the new stanage logbook but can't seem to order a crag by grade and stars anymore.

General initial impression is that it feels like an overload of colour and information with it now harder distinguish between different buttress. Harder to tell if I've done a route/problem, harder to tell if something is a proper route or some made up link up crap added by a user. Hopefully with some playing around and filters it will improve 

Love this feed idea. Really fun to see what partners are logging. I also appreciate the subtle differentiation between the date you did the climb, and the date you logged it on.

The grade ordering is broken right now, I'll turn that off until it's fixed, when you'll also be able to sort by voted difficulty.
 

Sort by stars can go in easy enough, for now there's sort by popularity:

https://beta.ukclimbing.com/crags/stanage_popular-104/routes?sort=popularit...
 

You can turn off the difficulty pills with the cog icon at the top of the list. These are an experiment for now. 

Can you say a bit more about some of your other criticisms:

- can you explain the crap linkup problem?

- when you say it's harder to tell if you've done something, the coloured tick in the corner isn't visible enough?

Oh, it looks like there's a problem with the tick for routes you've done on this new beta subdomain. They're not showing at all. I'll look into it. 

Looks great. Is this Discourse based? Or something you've come up with yourselves?

No this is made by us 

Because the crag is well modirated this isn't necessary a good eample (but sounds like an existing route): but at a glance it is hard to tell between yet another claimed new route https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/grottos_arse_c... and any other route as it doesn't show it is awaiting moderation.

Regards the ticks, I guess I will get used to it but much prefer the bold green text of the old system. Also I can't click on the tick and see the date I climbed a route at a glance.

Scrolling down the crag also seems to be much slower and freeze which never used to happen.

If i click into a route it says there are accents by partners who I have no idea who they are. + I removed all my partners anyway so my recent ascents was full all the time and I was constantly in FOMO.

Quite like the feed.

Not a fan of the new layout of crag pages and logbooks, everything's a bit overly spaced out so have to do a lot of scrolling. Maybe just something to get used to.

Having your wishlist separated by the dates you added things to it seems sort of pointless.

I noticed on the feed that the style of ascent for some routes was 'second &beta' rather than 'second ß'.

Have you seen you can turn on a compact mode in the cog at the top?

Yeah very true

We'll get that fixed

Yeah good point we'll get that added.

We can make the tick clickable

Can you tell me what device you're on?

Can you send me a link to an example of this? I'll log in as you and have a look.

I've tried looking at the new Stanage Popular on my mobile phone but access is blocked.  I can see it on desktop (but very small) and on my Android tablet.

The old version has it broken down into separate buttresses, which are easily navigated to from tabs. This is just one long and unwieldy list, made even longer as route descriptions are now visible, meaning few routes to a page.

I don't really need to know how many ascents a route has had, and this information just adds to the clutter. (I've just realised I can turn this off)

I don't find the ticks which indicate whether I've climbed a route are very conspicuous, in the old version they're much more obvious. I'd prefer these to be on the left, next to the route name, as in the current version as that's where I look first.

I assume the comments on grade come from voting.  Are they reliable?  Christmas Crack is described in the text as "mild for the grade" (which seems fair) but flagged as "benchmark" HS 4a. It can't be both. (again, I've now realised I can hide this)

I'm not sure the colour-coding for this helps either, on the one hand it highlights the variations but on the other it adds to the visual clutter.  (again, I've now realised I can hide this)The eye is drawn to this, rather than to the actual grade and stars (which could be bigger). 

The old version shows icons for the style of climbing (trad, sport, etc) which now seem to be missing.  

In the header I'd prefer to see things like map, guidebook, weather and personal stats given priority over ascents by others

I'd like the option to filter out friends' climbs from the feed - I'm in a climbing club with dozens of partners so that will add a lot of clutter. TBH I don't think I'll be using the feed much, but I guess others may like it.

The logbook stats page now has a huge number of climbs in the 'hardest climbs' section as it has your hardest route logged in every given style, even if it's easier than a route you've done in 'better' style. For example my hardest climbs include me having flashed a 6b on top rope despite having led harder. Mind you, I quite like the inclusion of some things such as hardest thing done with alternate leads. 

Also is the calendar thing at the top supposed to look like that? Kind of like the idea but took me a while to figure out what it was.

Galaxy S21 5G

See picture below from Black Bawk Bastion, my ascent info alot less prominent where previously it was in a nice little box which would contain any notes I'd made (have turned the notes off in this screenshot) but seems strange the notes come before the date and partner info.

Also just notice if I use the find in page function in my browser (Chrome) it won't find stuff, I think anything that isn't on the screen currently.

Bit busy with work but will add more feedback and answer questions when I get a chance.... last quick one is now really annoying having to click into a route then clicking into another tab to see which ticklists it is on and I can't tell which ones I am subscribed to and which I'm not anymore.

Feed shows partners entries in topics I am not interested in.

e.g. Cycling, politics.

One final quick one better get back to work... 

If I try to edit a log book entry there is no way to delete an entry from the climb page anymore only on your main logbook page.

I dunno - I just clicked on this and immediately got updates on the fact that my mate is out climbing when I'm not - and now I don't know where to find anything - personally a fan of the old version! 

Aaaaaaaaar the more I try to use it the more infuriating it is with extra space, more scrolling, clutter and adverts that blend into buttress titles. When I click on logbooks the first page is a feed with replies from the forum not my logbook like some sort of social media feed Aaaaaaaaaaaar

Please don't implement this.

Yeah, I get why UKC have gone this way but this kind of thing should be opt in. I'm not really all that interested in what someone I climbed with five years ago is doing in font.

I echo these comments for the most part. I enjoy the speed of searching the logbook, but would appreciate a 'sort by' option. Love that you can search specific grades, partners, or styles in the top bar. Feels like the sort of specific search that other sites are doing away with for some reason despite it being mostly what people seem to want.

It would be really cool if I could search my wishlist like "South Wales, E1" since you can do both of those separately in the search bar, it feels like an additional step may not be too hard to implement (but admittedly I wouldn't know). It was just something I instinctively tried to search.

Similarly I somehow have quite a lot of partners on this site and some were very much in and out affairs and although I enjoy the reminder that we climbed once or twice as part of my slightly obsessive logging over the years, some option to curate my feed to people of my choice would be nice. Or be able to curate it to leave out wishlist additions etc. as you would on another type of social feed.

Apologies if you've actually done any of that and I'm too dim to have worked out how yet!

Yeah I'm personally more of a fan of the old format of the logbook and crag pages, seems just way less cluttered and easier to find stuff, a lot easier on the eyes!

Some of the new features such as the grade opinions are kinda cool but also a bit demoralising to see some of your hard sends labelled as overgraded! I guess you can click off that option though

I like the idea of the feed but maybe not at the forefront of each page as you go into it?

The new features added are cool, but with to the change of formatting for the logbooks, stats page and climb pages, with respect for the effort of developing and trying something new, the expression if it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind

Has anyone tried using the new logbooks function before clicking dislike.

A nother example of the reduced useablity: previously I could view 25 routes in a small scroll on my phone, now I have to scroll loads more (on the desktop version you could increase that to 50, 75 or 100 routes per page). On both versions you could select a page number at the bottom on a sliding bar. Now you can only click on a set of numbers at the bottom and the left and right arrows. With over 400 pages in my logbook at 25 per page to navigate anywhere is a hell of alotbof clicking. Screen shots show how much extra space everything takes and thatis with as much clutter turned off.

I'm actually with you on this one. Reduced clicks is good!

Ah, yeah just seen the stats page, I agree it feels a lot more cluttered than the old version. Although its cool to have the other stats I liked just having the hardest of each main style, maybe have it on a toggle as well to filter out all the other bits?

By compact mode, do you mean turn off 'show all route info' etc? I would like the option to retain the info, but lose some of the excess whitespace to save getting carpal tunnel while browsing a crag's routes.

Some initial thoughts on the Crag (Routes) pages:

Overall I think the extra information looks very positive, thanks for the hard work. Much more useful information available at a glance without having to click to additional pages.

I agree with others who have said they would prefer it to be more obvious which routes you have already logged, and it would be good to be able to see the symbols for boulder/sport/trad.

I'm finding scrolling through a crag page is quite laggy. I first tested on an older Android phone (Pixel 4a):

I scroll to the bottom of the page, then have to wait a few seconds for the page to catch up and load the next few routes. It took 5 and a half minutes to scroll the full length of the Stanage Popular routes. Even smaller crags are frustrating slow.

I then tested it on a much newer phone (Galaxy S23):

The lag is much shorter, but still noticeable on large crags (~1 min 30 for Stanage Popular). I also note that the loading is not a once and done task: it lags to load the routes while you're scrolling down the page, then it lags to reload the same routes if you scroll back up the page.

Has the crag page been tested in a location with poor signal? I can't test performance on a poor signal right now, but it looks like it will have one large benefit and one equally large drawback depending on your situation:

- If you download a crag page from home before heading to a crag with poor signal, it appears to download the route information for all routes at the crag in one tap. This will be a big improvement over the old system for days when you know you won't have a signal before you leave for the crag.

- If you are already at a crag with poor signal, I expect the extra information that the page tries to load will mean it won't be able to successfully download any route information at all? On the old system, you could load route names and order without needing too much data. But you couldn't get route descriptions because they needed extra clicks for each route which would need more data to be downloaded.

Filters: it's great to see that it remembers the route filters if I go to a different crag. When you finish the conditions pages, I'm hoping the My Conditions page will remember my settings each time too?

Crag (Ascents):

Is there any chance of getting a date filter on here? I'm not interested at all in the total number of routes/problems that have been logged at a particular crag. At the beginning of a season or when the weather is changeable, I'm very interested in the number of accents in the last few days/weeks. I realise this may be seen to be blurring functions of the crag pages and the conditions pages a bit: but I would find this very useful, particularly when researching crags at new areas that I don't climb at regularly.

Crag (Overview):

Access Issues are much less obvious now that the only place they are only shown on the Overview page is in the tabs at the top. I much preferred the old layout where there was an orange 'Restricted Access' box in the centre of the page if there were access issues (or a giant red banner if it's completely banned).

Can you make Access issues at least as prominent on the Overview pages as they were on the old layout please? Access Issues need to be as prominent as possible to make sure we don't lose access to more crags.

What about if there was a setting so you could organise your partners into 'Close Partners' and 'Acquaintances'.

Then there could be a toggle for your feed to either show activity for all partners, or close partners only.

Edit: I see myrddinmuse had basically suggested the same thing a few posts further up.

Ah yes, the "FOMO" filter.

Fully agree with your comments

. UKC please don't implement these logbook changes , it'll probably stop me using the log books at all

The more I look at this the more it appears to be form over substance. At first glance it looks slicker and more modern, but it actually shows less useful information while adding clutter I'm not interested in. On balance I'd prefer to stick with the current version, which is fine as far as I'm concerned.

What actually is the problem you're trying to fix? Or is this change for changes sake?

Sorry  to be negative, you've obviously put a lot of work into this but I don't see any benefit from it.

Three minor issues related to logging a climb from the beta pages:

1) When I log a climb, I get this error: 'Please fix the following errors: - There was an error uploaded'. The climb does still get added to my logbook (I accidentally logged a climb 5 times because I didn't think it was getting recorded). 

2) I cannot delete ascents from the beta logbook, I can only edit them. I can delete the ascents by using the old system instead of the beta.

3) When I used the old system to delete the accidental ascents mentioned above,  it added the comment from the deleted ascents to the remaining logged ascent for that climb. So I ended up with one ascent, with the same comment repeated 5 times.  I fixed this by deleting that ascent too, then relogging it (I still had the Log Ascent page open in another tab).

I'm not getting any option for compact mode, just the ability to turn off display of options but doesn't charge the spacing much.

+1

Was going to post this as well. Thanks.

The photo section displays images in an odd manner.

I can't open the route details from the routes list, but I've finally worked out how to add a route to my logbook. Again the process is cumbersome and involves a lot of scrolling.

The style options are limited if you've climbed a route before. However I sometimes find I climbed a route decades ago, without realising when I did it again. With no recollection of the climb or even the confidence fr9m doing it before, to me that's another onsight and I like to record that (some will disagree, but it's my logbook). I can do that in the current logbook but not in the beta.

Sorry, but another down vote. If it ain't broke ...

Feedback for the Logbook page:

Instead of showing my preferred grade system (I have it set to Font grades for bouldering in my user settings), the beta logbook page shows my ascents with a mixture of  Font grades and V grades.

I presume it is listing all climbs using the grade system that was chosen by the person who first uploaded the climb to the crag page.

If I sort my logged ascents by date, it shows the crag and area for each climb. If I sort by grade, it doesn't show the crag or area.

When sorting by grade, the order appears to go:

1) Climbs with not enough votes

2) Undergraded

3) Hard

4) Benchmark

5) Soft

6) Overgraded

I think it would make more sense if climbs without enough votes appeared below Benchmark. It looks a bit weird to have climbs without votes ordered as being harder than climbs that have been voted as Undergraded.

I second the opinion that not enough accents are shown on each page. I would like to see an option to reduce the dead space and to increase the number of climbs shown per page.

When clicking on the next page, it takes you to the bottom of the next page, instead of the top of the next page, so you have to scroll all the way to the top to see the next climb in the list. This is one of my pet hates in modern web design.

Apologies if my posts come across as negative, overall I think the changes are good.

Love the feed idea! Think it's awesome 

Echo the other comments regarding the logbook page feeling cluttered making it harder to read the information (and more scrolling). Much prefer the old style which is more usable. The idea of the feed isn't necessarily bad, but I'm often not interested in what a partner has commented or what climbs they have put on their wishlist recently. Certainly wouldn't want this to be the first page that opens. Much appreciate the opportunity to give feedback

I get a fatal error on the feed page: "Fatal error: Uncaught mysqli_sql_exception" along with a full error trace that I probably shouldn't be able to see! Happy to DM/email it if it's any help.

I'm also seeing a fatal error with full stack trace on the feed page, 

I'm also interested in whether the "benchmark" etc. rating takes into account all-time votes, or recent votes. Interesting implications for areas like Albarracin where holds sadly 'improve' with brushing over the course of years causing grade droop. Similar for hold breaks.

I'd reiterate the above - any way you can improve the prominence of access notes/RAD integration would be really impactful. 

Agreed. It would be good if the voting system weighs recent votes more highly than ancient votes so that changes due to hold breaks, hold improvement, or new sequences get accurately captured in the grade votes instead of getting lost in the noise.

OK felt a bit negative above as there are some good features and hard work gone in so trying to make a more positive constructive feedback post to improve things. (some differences I'm getting used to some are still frustrating at best).

Ordering my logbook by grade: would be nice if Norwegian grades were mixed in with the equivalent UK grade, currently everything I climbed there is ordered higher than any UK trad route.

In some instances the back button on my browser no longer works. For example if I start at:  https://beta.ukclimbing.com/logbooks/0/feed and navigate to my logbook (via the feed) and onto a different page of my logbook the back button takes me back to the starting  website page rather than the previous page of my logbook, pretty annoying.

Ticklists: not sure what's happened but the order of routes has completely been removed. See https://beta.ukclimbing.com/logbooks/lithos-4245/ticklists/classic_rock-8/r... for an example. This used to have all the Scottish, English, and Welsh routes grouped together with useful dividers and now all the routes have been mixed together presumably in the original order they were added. AND you have to navigate to a 2nd page to see all of the routes, unfortunately the link to page 2 doesn't seem to work. This will be a right pain on longer ticklists.

What's happened to the diary? It's now both easier and harder to se what I did on a particular date using the stats calender as I click on a green dot and I can instantly see what i did on a particular day. However its a bit trial and error as I can't easily chose a specific date (also why are my photo stats in here?!? with my logbook it's so random like my posts). Also I can't seem to find where I have added stuff like walking or occasionally noting that I went to the wall so I could see it was a wet day anymore.

Similar to what others have said, theres quite a lot of redundant info/space being displayed in the logbook. e.g. in the logbook it shows crag twice, taking up more space and looking more disorganised (in my opinion).

Thanks for reporting this, should be fixed now and won't show those error traces again!

My thoughts, I can see a lot of work has gone into this.

All testing on an up to date iPhone 12. 

Feed. I don't care about forum activity etc just what mates have climbed and thats already in partner ascents. turning all the other stuff off just leaving ascents. Too much space used per ascent, currently it's one line per ascent on the existing site and I can flip the phone into landscape mode to see more.
Also I don't want to see my ascents in the feed, what's the point in that? Thats already in my logbook.
Not too sure on the dynamic on demand scrolling.

Logbook. Similar to the above. Too many lines used per ascent.Would be nice to control how many entries per page.

Partner ascents. See above, too many lines used per ascent.

Photos. I'm not sure what's going on here at all.

Really I like it how it is, ukc has always been a light touch on responsive content with an uncluttered and fast responding site. The changes are making it look like twitter or instagram.

Tested on Android 13 decent sized screen modern Samsung phone.

New logbook layout is awful. I'd rather just see the buttresses, route names grades etc and ticks etc as we had before and then get more info for the routes I want to do or am interested in. 

For a crag with 5-10 routes the new format might be ok but for more routes it's awful. 

I find the new format totally overwhelming 😞 

I have similar thoughts re the winter conditions - endless scrolling and reading is now needed.  

The feed bit I actually quite liked but that's it I'm afraid. It would be nice to have the option to limit how much is displayed on the feed though or the option to turn it off - once summer starts I can see my feed getting busy and annoying.

Is there a way to filter by ascents in the crag route pages? I couldn't find that and often use that fliter at larger crags to work out the popular routes, which areas to go to etc.

I am finding it all rather unpleasant and hard to navigate. 

Being able to collapse the route description stuff on crag route pages so you just get the basic info would be helpful. 

I'm not neurotypical so maybe that's my issue. For me it's just information overload. There's lots of wasted space where the same info can be much more succinctly presented.

By the time I get to the bottom of a crag route page I've scrolled miles and forgotten what was at the top 😞 or what I am interested in as all the other stuff distracts me. 

A few comments:

I can't seem to find my dairy on my logbook page anymore, don't know if it's been hidden somewhere but isn't as obvious as before.

The new map feature is horrible, the apple maps just doesn't look as good and the little red blobs seems so much less clear than the previous pins. The way routes you've done at a crag is now listed below the map is nice, although suffers the same cluttering as the rest of the logbooks, but otherwise this definitely seems like a downgrade.

The ascent information could be integrated better. My gripe with the current logbooks has always been that on the desktop version, there's a comment button so you can read the comments made on a route in your/others logbook from your logbook 'list' page, but on my phone I have to go to the route page and scroll to see it in the ascents part. The current settings don't solve the problem brilliantly, as I having that information showing for all the routes in a logbook makes it cluttered, but if you turn the settings off you still have to go to the route page to find the ascent information. If it worked somewhat like the route descriptions do on the rockfax app I think that would be much better; when you scroll through the route list there is condensed info there by default (name and grade) and if you tap on a route it expands the information just for that route (descriptions etc) without taking you to another page. The ascent information in the logbooks is something I only want to read for occasional routes so personally this would work better.

The feed bit seems a bit over the top as well. I like using the current recent ascents page, but don't need to know that someone I haven't climbed with in years has put a random route on their wishlist. Might be nice if it's something you can just see on an individual members page, but with lots of partners it means there's lots of irrelevant information.

Also on the page for a route, the sections for my ascents and partner ascents are easily scrolled past and maybe it's because it's different but without the boxes/tabs around them it doesn't look as good. Some popular local routes have 40+ partner ascents for me as well so it's nicer having the tab to open/close that box as desired.

It looks like the new version is being brought to match the rockfax app, which is understandable but the UKC aesthetic is also nice so I hope it doesn't get changed too much. I use the UKC website to log routes way more than the app because of the differences in how they look and work!

I like the new logbook page, apart from the regression in pagination functionality.

The feed I couldn't really care about and it will annoy me if a click on the logbook link takes me to that, rather than my actual logbook. 

In the logbook Stats the bouldering grades have gone out of order of difficulty - mine currently goes 3+, 6a+, 7a+, 7b+ then back down to 2, 3 etc.

I like the logbook feed idea but don't like it defaulting to that - when I go into my logbook it's not normally to see what others are sending (and definitely not for what they are saying in the forums) so i like the concept but would prefer it defaulted to my own logbook list of climbs. 

Quite like the crag layouts and the option to filter on/off routes descriptions as I'd use that a lot for Scottish bouldering crags where there's rarely a topo so UKC descriptions are the only info. I do miss the functionality to jump straight to a sector or buttress though. 

As with some other comments, finding it quite laggy scrolling even though I'm on a brand new Android phone. 

 I like the photo layout - seems a lot quicker to skim through than the current way. 

My 2p worth. Viewing on a large screen windows laptop so I appreciate this is not the intended platform...

Logbook page

Feed-
Needs shifting down the menu order i.e. Logbook first.

Logbook-
Font generally feels too small.

Wishlist-
Default sort by grade rather than by date added.

Partner Ascents-
Defaulting to seeing every ascent is too much.
I preferred seeing overview with just one accent per partner with the ability to expand if required.

Topos-
Thumbnails not appearing.

Crag page

Crag overview-
Text on crag thumbnail need shaded background to be legible.

Routes-
Number of ascents text too small.
The "undergraded" text on red background is illegible; far too small.
Route length could be shown.
Buttress descriptions have gone.

Accents-
Perhaps sort the routes for each day by grade i.e. top grade of the day top.

Stats -
Pop-up text balloon not fully visible at the extremities of the calendar.

Topos-
Too far down the menu list. It's the only item that falls of the end of the menu.
Selecting a topo brings up the image but not the associated route text.

Route page

Overview-
Can't flick to the next route as before, now need to return to route list.
No access to route topo.

Photos-
A single route photo appears heavily cropped on entering photos.

I can’t find Latest Ascents?

I tend to use the Latest Ascents/ Recent Top Ascents to help me work out if a trip to a particular location is going to be worthwhile.

A Search Ascents by Current Map Area ability would be great for this. As the map is zoomed the list of ascents updates. (Airbnb has this kind of functionality.) Current filters would help this feature. The coloured circles on the map need to be more visible btw.

I like that the ascent details appear below each entry but would prefer to see a straightforward list of routes completed that only shows the relevant ascent detail after clicking on the route name, rather than sliding radio buttons to make things appear/disappear globally.

iPhone SE 2nd gen.

On my logbook page, if I sort by grade, some of my ascents disappear. Those same ascents are visible if I sort by date instead.

I was rather skeptical of any changes, as generally I prefer the websites that look like they were designed in 1999; they're usually more useful. However, after having a look, I think this is a positive change! Searchability everywhere is a very nice approach. All those "hard"/"soft" labels look lovely. I also like the update on the "Stats" page; it's nice that "Seconded" no longer dominates "Alt Leads" and vice versa (easier top-ropes should still be dominated though, I think). I'll be listing some nitpicks, mostly minor, however this is generally much better than I expected from the announcement, and I am quite optimistic towards this redesign

1. Please don't kill the "Diary" page, I am one of its three users.
2. In some cases, a grey skeleton appears before the page loads. In the grand scheme of things, rendering my three ascents is not a terribly complex task for modern computers. Can you please make it fast enough so that everything appears right when I click it, and any delays are imperceptible?
3. URL scheme seems to be different. While the new one is probably better, you do realise you'll have to maintain the old one and redirect from it until the end of the internet? There are a lot of links to stuff.
4. The "Partner ascents" tab is empty by default; this is a bit confusing. Currently its functions intersect a lot with the "Feed" tab, should it even be kept? Probably it should, but in that case, I think when the filter is empty it should list all partners' ascents in reverse-chronological order, or something like that.
5. If a person didn't specify a date of an ascent, only a year, that is shown as "1 Jan" of that year, should be hidden. Probably you should check other combinations as well (month but no date etc).
6. "style unspecified" looks a bit lame, maybe it should be just empty in that case? Only a green tick?
7. In some cases, you can see how people name their partners, I thought that was private in case when the partner is a UKC user (UKC username should be displayed in that case). Is that not so?
8. This problem is actually present in the current non-beta version as well. Maybe this redesign is an opportunity to fix this. If my partner A has climbed a route with me, and we're both each other's "partners" on UKC, I think should be able to see myself in A's logbook, even though my logbook setting is not public but partner-only.
9. Ctrl+A does not work in the filter (search) box. 
10. "Width is total" is a confusing wording.
11. As mentioned above, it would be nice to be able to make feed pages longer, like it was before. 
12. Also when I click on the next page number, the page should probably scroll up.
13. One of my use cases for a crag page was to sort it by logs and then by grade. After that, all climbs of a given grade bucket appear sorted by popularity. This is very useful, please make it possible in the new design as well.
14. There is a rare mode of operation of the old crag page which I was using a lot. If you sort the climbs by logs, click on one of them and then go back, they stay sorted by logs but a buttress header appear above each climb. This is super-useful, as, when looking at a new crag, it allows you to scroll through most popular climbs, vaguely memorize the buttress names and decide where to go. 
15. I don't think labels like "FA. Unknown" and "Not enough voting on this route to infer it's difficulty." should be shown. If you don't have anything useful to say, don't say anything.
16. There seem to be more ads in the logbook feed, that's not really welcome

I too an an avid diary user and would love to at least keep that how it is! I track all my activities through it and its current functionality is perfect!

I'm pretty happy with things as they are. I've thought carefully whether this is because I'm a grumpy old fogey who doesn't like change, but it's more than that. When I first saw the beta version I thought it looked rather good, if a bit cluttered (but you can turn the clutter off). However on delving into it deeper I've found it is flawed.  I've already made some comments which I won't repeat.

I can see some advantages to displaying the route details on the "crag" page, although it needs the buttress/sector functionality of the current version. I won't be using it at the crag myself as the screen on my phone can't be seen in bright conditions.  For the logbook I prefer the current compact list which gets a lot more information onto the screen.

I understand the need for adverts, but I really dislike having them imposed in the middle of something I'm trying to read. It doesn't make me well-disposed towards the advertiser and probably has the opposite effect to what they intend. Especially when, in the cack-handed way of the internet, they persist in showing me things I've already bought or showed only a casual interest in.

The diary is dreadful. It's impossible to tell the dates, and activities are showing on the wrong days. If I accidentally touch the scroll bar at the bottom (hard to avoid) it whizzes off to some random date in the past. The old diary is excellent, and gives a clear view of all my activities for the year or month, which this doesn't. Please leave it alone.

I can't see the point of the feed myself, and I don't want this forced on me. When I click on "My Logbook" in the menu I expect to be taken straight to my logbook, which is one of the site's features I use most.

The new maps are unclear, and some of the dots showing climbs in my logbook are barely visible. Some are in a dark grey-green colour which can't be seen against the green terrain until I zoom right in (and barely visible then).

The photos seem fine, but then they're fine as they are.

UKC is a brilliant website which provides climbers with many valuable resources. Please don't f*** it up.

You might also want to rename "Partner Ascents" to "Stocking".  

*Feature request*

Could you explore the option to add crags to your feed? I quite like seeing recent ascents for various crags in the area, gives me an up to date idea on what is/isn't in condition. Also could be good to get any new route feedback added to the feed for subscribed crags.

Others have given some great and detailed feedback so I'm probably repeating what's already been said.

I kind of like the general look and that you can adjust the level of detail but it does some trickier to use.

The Feed gives me a queezy feeling. I know it's just surfacing data that was public already, but it makes it much more likely that I will de-link all my climbing partners. I've climbed with lots of different people and am not really interested in all their wishlists, recent ascents and comments - and I'm not keen on them being presented with my activity either. Please don't make it the default landing page for logbooks.

For crag pages I'd like it to be more obvious which routes I've done before - the tick on the extreme right gets a bit lost. I often use my ticks to orientate myself when scrolling through a crag - I can often find the main wall / popular bit because I'll have a bunch of ticks there.

Buttress names / divisions are not very clear when scrolling through a crag.

On logbook pages, what I really want to see is a table of the data - something like it would be if it was exported to excel as a flat file, with the ability to sort and filter. The beta structure means I'm searching for information as some is on the line item (route name, grade, aecent style) and some is in group headings (date and crag). Unless I sort by grade, in which case date and crag are not shown at all.

I see there is a helpful "download to xlsx" link which I'm really pleased you provide but it makes it a bit of a faff and then I'm no longer looking at the site and seeing your adverts.

Also in the logbook, ascent style (with partner) takes up around 50% of the screen when the same information is conveyed by the coloured tick. I'd rather exclude the partner data and compact the whole thing.

Others have mentioned the paging. I can jump to page 7 but from there can only scroll through past pages one at a time with no indication of how many there are.

Finally, I'm acutely aware I don't pay anything for this excellent site and here I am complaining about some great work. So well done and thank you for opening up to public feedback like this. You basically get a bunch of criticism as noone likes change, but as a development team you're always very open and are a great example of how a site can be run. Thank you.

I may have missed it but I can't see a way to filter ascents just by those with comments. I really liked that feature in the old logbooks. If anything, the comments are the main reason I'm looking in ascents for a specific route - I really don't care whether JoeSchmo92 lead dogged it unless they've put a comment in!

Well, you do pay for it in the same way you pay for Facebook or any other social media site - although obviously there's a huge difference in scale - in that you, and the data you provide, are the product that makes the site attractive to advertisers.

That said I am also hugely appreciative of the effort that's being put in, I'm just not immediately convinced of the "social feed" direction in which these changes seem to be going.

Agreed too - especially if I'm actually out in the wild I don't want to have to wait for lots of pages to load, but also as someone with a disability, while respecting that others may feel the exact opposite, I really don't want loads of extra complication and visual 'noise'.

I quite like this idea. This is something 8a.nu do (as well as having the option to follow climbs), and it's something I use there.

Hi everyone, I ended up being off yesterday so I've not yet read a lot of this thread. 
 

On Monday we'll look at moving some of the posts here into their own threads in the development forum so we have one topic per thread which will make discussion a bit easier. 

To be honest I prefer the logbook as it was, seems to be much more scrolling than before. The absence of the diary is a big miss, one of the reasons I remained a subscriber even when I wasn't using the app. please don't lose it!

I have gone back to your original post where you explained the thinking behind these changes:

I don't think anyone could reasonably object to this, but I'm not sure what this means. In what respect is it now unfriendly to newcomers? In making changes, please don't make it confusing for existing users who know their way around.

I agree

Judging from the comments, this is a questionable assumption. Different lists serve different purposes, so the same look and feel may not be appropriate.

I agree

I agree

Again, that depends on the context and the purpose of each particular list. Making this information visible means fewer routes can be displayed. Some of this does appear to be filterable, but there should be an indicator that there is information to be displayed, and there should be separate filters for each list.

The beta site seems to have lost functionality with the Maps and Activity Diary. I don't seem to be able to add routes to my logbook from the routes lists, only in the logbook itself. Some of the sort options seem to be missing.  I can no longer describe a repeat ascent done with no recollection of a previous ascent perhaps decades before as another onsight, although that is what it felt like. There may be others..

By all means add new functionality such as the feed, although I may not wish to use it myself. However this should not be intrusive. Let users choose for themselves what to look at, don't interpose them into menu links to something else.

I haven’t been able to explore all the features yet but there are a couple of issues.

1) My diary has disappeared, either I can’t find it or it is being got rid of? This would be a shame as I use it for all climbing related activities including climbing wall activities etc.

2) You can re-vote on the grades of routes that you have previously given! 

3) You can still vote for grades of routes even if you haven’t made an ascent. Why not make it mandatory to log the routes you have done before you can access the grade vote. If you look at some of the harder routes you often see it has more recorded grade votes than ascents logged.

4) I like the fact that you can finally delete and adjust your given grade votes as I’ve made mistakes when entering grades and not been able to adjust the grades.

5) I can't see how to filter ascents to just those with comments.

I like some of the smaller changes to the logbook such as the "undergraded/benchmark/overgraded" thing, the location/flag, and the fact that comments are finally visible on mobile. In fact I think overall the new logbook page itself is pretty good. However, I think a lot of the changes to other pages are a step back, and in many places introduce tabs and extra button presses that weren't necessary.

• The feed is a nice idea but overall doesn't add too much, and shouldn't be the default tab when you open logbook.
• The new map with the pink circles is bad. 
• The diary at the top of the stats page is broken. I liked the map here so not sure why it's moved. Also I now have to click "show more logbook stats" on the stats page to open my stats up. This makes no apparent sense, there's basically nothing on the stats page if you don't click it, I opened the stats page, of course I want to see all the stats!
• Whenever I open a new tab (latest ascents, conditions, etc) it auto-selects the filter box and my keyboard appears. This is annoying as I have to keep closing it, I often don't want to filter (for example when scrolling through public ascents).

And then I have some issues with the new individual climb page:

• Because there's no way to hide partners ascents (or my own); for climbs that loads of my partners have done I now need to scroll through lots of irrelevant info/comments to get to the vote bit. The collapse arrow should be added back.
• There are generally more button presses needed to navigate the page. For example, the stats and ticklists bit didn't take up much space and were useful, it's annoying to have them hidden away on a different tab. Do agree that having the vote higher/more prominent as it is now is helpful.

Again with the crag page, I didn't feel it was too cluttered before, so it's annoying to now have to click through so many tabs to see very important info such as access, grade distribution stats, and the routes themselves. On the other hand, completely irrelevant information like what routes at the crag my partners have done features prominently on the front page of the crag. The extra stats are a welcome addition though. 

I've copied most of the feedback into separate threads on the development forum (https://beta.ukclimbing.com/forums/development/). 

Feel free to add comments to those threads, or start new threads to discuss specific feedback.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback so far.

The feed is cool.

I think overall the new logbook pages are just too sparse on information for a desktop site. It's like a social media feed from a phone has been taken and just dropped there, using just a narrow middle part of my screen. The old tables were simultaneously more dense and easier to digest at a glance.

Some parts are also a bit annoying - e.g. if a logbook is displayed without comments, there's no way of reading them without either opening the route page or changing the settings for the whole logbook to display them? 

I get an error when I try and post on the development site (I am logged in). Says I can't post for an unknown reason. Anyway, what I wanted to say (on the Feed thread) was

‐---

In reply to Andy Ovens - UKC and UKH:

The list of my ascents in the feed lists my partners by their UKC names, but in my logbook they are listed by the names I know them as. 

I'd much rather have the feed entries by names I recognise. E.g. "Dave" rather than "BigBoy123"