UKH

Hi,

I have some questions about obtaining guide certs and I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions or knowledge here. I've been climbing for over 25 years now (first climb was actually at Rosyth Quarry...in the rain...got caught under a mud waterfall mid-route...ended up at Alien Rock in the afternoon to everyone else's surprise!), but guiding has never been an endeavor for me as a climber.

Having said that, I have a few things that have happened in my life recently that are somewhat making me reconsider this. I'm American and currently live in the US. However, our granddaughter lives in Switzerland and we're missing out on those early years. My wife has an opportunity for Italian citizenship, so we're thinking of moving to Northern Italy to be closer to family. That may take a few years still, but we're working on it and confident in that paperwork.

Recently my wife got a job at a university and we moved to Boston. Me, being an artist, I had no job in the area, so when I saw her university asking for climbing instructors, I jumped on just to get some hours of something in the bank. It turns out, not by my definition, that I'm pretty good at teaching climbing in particular. In fact, they've got me teaching multiple classes, including the advanced class. Because of my experience, they want to hire me as a guide for student trips, but they want me to get certified first, mostly for insurance purposes. The certs here are mostly AMGA.

So, my question is this, how easy, or even possible is it to transfer for AMGA certs to IFMGA? From what I gather, anyone with AMGA certs believes that they are also IFMGA certified due to the reciprocal recognition from each organization. However, I'm hearing that practically speaking it's not really that easy and depends on the country. Italy, for example, certification goes through the ministry of sports (or whatever government body that is). There is no government cert program in the US (it's all private).

Also, I know that AMGA has different levels and you don't need to get all level of certs. This is important because I'm not a mountaineer or skiier or ice climber. For me, it's all about rock, and yes, I have decent alpine experience. One of my best friends and partners owns a guide business out in CO and he thinks I'd be able to pass the first couple of exams without studying (much) and even the next level or so with some more brushing up on what the test asks. So I'm thinking about getting these certs. 

But I want this experience to be transferrable. I'm not sure I want to go down the road of getting all these certs if I can't transfer them, especially if I need to do more mountaineering type stuff in Italy just to get guide certified. I'd rather find another job or business and keep climbing personal. I just feel like this is one type of job where I can do well somewhat early on - maybe even get hired somewhere quickly.

And just to answer some quick questions that may arise: my Italian is pretty basic at this point, but I lived in Brasil for several years and I'm picking it up quickly; no, art is NOT a viable source of income (hahahahahaha!!!!11!!!!one!!!); and I'm not really tied to AMGA if there's another program that is more easily transferrable, but I feel it needs to be in English so that language isn't a barrier at this point.

Thanks, and sorry for the long post! I look forward to your responses.

IFMGA guides have to be mountaineers & skiers as well as rock climbers to qualify. But there are rockclimbing instructor  qualifications in Europe so maybe that would be an alternative, but these are national rather than international.

Got it, that's how I was reading it, too. I wasn't able to find anything regarding just rock, but I suppose I could reach out to some of the guide companies.

Any idea if they let you transfer AMGA to these rock-only certs?

I saw on the Italian Sports Ministry website that there are some forms that allow AMGA (or foreign guides) to work in Italy, but they mostly seemed to revolve around outside guides bringing clients into the country as opposed to setting up a business in the country (kind of like a temp business visa). Nothing for rock-only that I could see.

Thanks

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/mountain_leader_and_rock_climbi...

This has quite a helpful answer. You'll probably find the only bit of AMGA certs that is transferable for Italy is the full IFMGA guide ticket.

The short answer is that it’s only easily transferable / valid if you go all the way through the AMGA scheme.

Thanks, that's helpful.

Hopefully Italy has come further along in this regard since 2001. Bugger to have to go through all the certs again, even if just for that region. I appreciate it!

Italy used to be just the guide for teaching all mountain/climbing sports. But they have just started a rock climbing instructor scheme. It's quite new and not a lot of info out there yet. You could look at getting transferred to that? There is an EU directive to have awards transferred with in EU countries and there will be a system for those out side the EU but I don't know anything about it.

In reply to ecrinscollective:

Any idea what this is called? I've tried searching for it, but apparently my lack of Google skills is hindering me. If I Google "rock climbing guide certification italy" I just get a bunch of guide services. I've contacted a couple, but I imagine my request isn't at the top of their priority list.

Some useful info here under Italy, https://ifmga.info/member-associations/member-associations

this seems most relevant https://www.guidealpine.it/

and of course Google will translate for you !

https://www.cai.it/organo_tecnico/commissione-nazionale-scuole-alpinismo-sc...

As others have said, having the full AMGA qualification makes you an IFMGA qualified guide as the AMGA is part of the IFMGA.

There are quite a few American IFMGA Guides working across Italy, France and Switzerland,  many of them based around Chamonix,  France. Gaining equivalence to work in the alpine countries is fairly straightforward as an IFMGA mountain guide, but AFAIK its much less straightforward to do so as a rock climbing instructor. I think this is because the equivalence of qualifications is less obvious.

Sorry I don't, I live near the boarder with Italy and I have an Italian friend living here who has been keeping tabs on it and is thinking of doing it. He has kept me up today on what's happening, saves me translating it but haven't got a name. I will try and ask him.

The best option for this is to contact the sports minister, they will know 100% what options are open to you and should tell you what you can do. Asking guides isn't great, as they probably don't know the laws around gaining equivalence and how they are applied. Also very often they don't like to share so just come out with you cant.  

If I get a name I will stick it on here.

Jez I believe that this is a different scheme which allows CAI members to be come qualified as CAI instructors but they do this on I believe an entirely voluntary basis? I've met a few of them over the years. They are... interesting...

Following this - I haven't had any luck finding info on this yet Rob. There's no mention which I can see of it on the Collegio Nazionale...

Edit ***

Scratch that, I THINK I may have just found it:

https://www.iamas.it/

Looks broadly similar to Moniteur d'Escalade in France.

Has a 6c/7a requirement to become level 2.

Ah got ya, I was researching this the other day but couldnt remember the page. The correct info is out there somewhere, I saw it 😂

Fantastic info folks! Thanks so much. I'll check out the links here soon.

- Ecrin, yes, if you have a name, that'd be awesome, thanks. Sports Minister may also be a good way to go, too.

- Will - yeah, I gather that if you're full AMGA that the IFMGA is probably pretty straight forward, also probably transferable, depending on the country. I have Renaud's and just not interested in standing out in the cold for work. I'd rather be having fun (and maintaining my flexibility to get inside when needed). I grew up in cold-weather locations, but done with working outside in it (ha!).

- Mike - Man, it's like 5.9 (6a) lead here. 7a is a ways away from that. Here's hoping it is transferrable.

Kimberly - thanks! and yes, I use Google Translate a fair amount as it is. I just couldn't figure out the terms to use. You guys have given me a great head start.

Guys, you have no idea how good that info is, thanks so much.

It seems that Italy has adopted a similar program to the US (and maybe the UK, too) in that there are private organizations who can certify you for specific rock-only scenarios. This is most helpful.

From what I've read thus far, though, is that much of it is based on bolted routes, though that could just be my crappy translation skills. Having climbed a fair amount on the Continent, I do understand that bolted routes are MUCH more normal than in the US / UK, and that gear anchors are not necessarily as vital there. It seems that maybe AMGA is somewhat in between these rock-only certifications and IFMGA.

I guess the next question is, do you actually need to be certified by one of these organizations? In one of the links, it seems to suggest that you do not need to go through them, but it's unclear. In the US, you don't need to be certified to be a guide. Now, insurance likes it MUCH better if you are certified, but it's not required (there's no legal requirement, per se). Shit, most of the guides who live at Camp 4, who don't work in YOS, know more than any AMGA instructor does and they guide all the time without certs. Here, it's a matter of knowledge and experience that's really important. I think most guides wouldn't get certified if it wasn't for the cost-benefit of doing so for insurance.

I may need to get in touch with the Sports Minister to find this out, or maybe talk to a lawyer.

Not sure where you get that idea from. Ifmga is a legally protected profession in Italy and France. If you are caught it could be jail time. Ifmga guides feel threatened by the new cert it would seem because in amongst my reading I saw a post by IAMAS the awarding body for the cert saying that there have been social media posts by some claiming the new instructors have no legal right to do so. I wouldn't want to be the person testing the system. Yes 7a is a high grade, but this is a sports climbing based certificate so I can understand the focus. It's not required at level 1 though. I'd expect there to be resistance (to put it mildly) to the acceptance of amga on the basis that you don't use there teaching method (which is seemingly registered) and the grade climbed is much lower. I'm in a similar boat to you albeit that I'm trying to qualify as an mci which is a higher qual than rock guide because it includes walking and scrambling aswell as rock so it's somewhat frustrating as I have a business there and am an EU citizen. I only just found this website, looks as though its brand new since Christmas. So I'm going to work on the presumption that if I'm to stand a chance of gaining equivalence, I'm probably going to need  to pass an exam. Ie I need to raise my game to appease them.

I wasn't suggested it was OK to guide without a cert in Italy. I was merely asking if it was OK (as it is in the US). I'm fully aware that labor laws are quite different between the countries. It just seemed odd, based on reading about the new law, that new organizations could be set up to give new types of certifications. 

I know you weren't. Just making sure you're clear on it. The guides there are protecting their ground. Earlier on today I was reading in Up Magazine that it seems that the Collegio Nazionale di Guide Alpine are working on their own qualification. It'll be interesting to see where it ends up. At any rate the IAMAS level 1 may be the one to try for equivalence of if you're going to try. The entry requirement is 6b so not particularly high. I'm guessing you could most likely sit the exam. Are you set on Italy? Austria also has a Kletterlehrer scheme - if you search kletterlehrer ausbildung oestereich it'll show up. But I get the impression the standard for entry is also 6c or 7a.

Yeah, so one of those guides who I emailed got back to me and he said that only IFMGA is legal in Italy, so I can see the push-back already in just a casual request for info.

We're not 100% set on Italy. My grand-daughter is just over the border near Lake Geneva, so France is also an option. Plus, my wife has academic connections in both Spain and Portugal (and also Ireland, but we both had poor experiences there, so not likely for us). Italy makes the most sense since it'll be close, it's where she'll be getting citizenship (I won't be, so going to another country is much easier for her than for me), and she has other personal connections there. Plus, with us both speaking Portuguese, Italian is a bit easier to learn.

One of my best climbing partners is German and lives there, so I could get him to help with anything Austria-wise, but neither one of us is really seeking to learn German (although I was very surprised one year when I met up with this German friend at El Chorro that I could easily read his GPS in German despite knowing very little more than ausfahrten - with English being a Germanic language, it may be easier than I think, though maybe not for my wife).

A US climbing instructor (AMGA) I spoke to in Switzerland last summer said that he was able to work there so long as he stuck to valley crags.

Above a certain altitude IFMGA was required, but lower down, not.

I can't comment on the accuracy of his claim, I haven't checked it myself. I was chatting to him at a crag and asked out of interest (I'm an MCI).

Some good responses to this thread, but perhaps conflating two issues. 1. There is the qualification / certification required. 2. The legal establishment to practice a profession.

The two are mutually exclusive. IFMGA is accepted as equivalent through a simple paper exercise. Legal establishment is more difficult and to legally practice your profession you would as I understand it need to be a permanent resident, and part of an Italian Guides association. That is challenging with a USA, or UK passport. The AMGA have a guidance document on this process.

I don't know if other levels of qualification are accepted. And I bet the coffee is mediocre in an Italian prison.

Huh?

You've explained it much better than I did. That's what I was trying to get at with the protected profession bit. But as I say, that stranglehold the Italian guides has been contested and somewhat broken by IAMAS it would seem. 

Sorry. The two are different standalone processes. You need a qualification and you need to apply to practice a profession in the case of guiding. Same in France. I don't know about the other climbing qualifications or local arrangements and work arounds.

Actually the Rock climbing Instructor, or Sport Climbing Instructor are not europe-specific, but part of UIAA instructor scheme. How they are implemented depends on the specific country. (note, IIRC the RCI requires multipitch expertice,  and use of removable protection... SPI can be credited to multipitch or single pitch... and naturally on fully bolted lines).

Unfortunately these were not shown all that well in the UIAA pages.

But to the OP, AGMA rock climbing cert should definitely grant you RCI credentials in Europe... that being said, a lot of countries really don't even acknowledge the lesser levels than the full IFGMA cert (which includes also snow and ice activities)... this seems to be the trend in the alpine countries (including also Italy, from what I have gathered).  

Interesting. Will have to educate myself on that.

Yeah, the RCI scheme, is not very well visible...  but considering my local federation built the local RCI training scheme based on the UIAA template (and also accredited it), perhaps this will shed some light into the requirements:
https://climbing-fi.translate.goog/content/kalliokiipeilykouluttaja-kkk?_x_... (google translation).

In essence, I'm 99% certain your AGMA rock modules match the requirements. But for the certs to be transferrable, both countries system should be accredited by UIAA. So you can ask AGMA if your rock modules are accredited to fullfil UIAA RCI... that's the start anyway. And then if indeed like hinted here, Italy is starting to also implement RCI... well then it should work.

That's interesting. I hadn't checked out Switzerland because we wouldn't have residency there and it's expensive, but it is where our son and grand-daughter live so...

But for there to be an altitude requirement, that's an interesting thought. I didn't see anything like that for Italy. I wonder what that looks like in Switzerland (or other nearby countries).

I would be a permanent resident in Italy, so no problems there. I suppose I could join an association, especially if that's required, but in one of the links above I thought I read that it was not necessary under the new law.

I hadn't thought of actually contacting AMGA. Such a simple solution. I'm a little embarrassed. 

As for the prison thing, the whole Tito Traversa incident has definitely made me wary of working as a guide in Italy in the past. It's one of the things holding me back, but not completely.

I think this is the biggest issues. For sure an AMGA Rock Guide is really quite qualified to lead multi-pitch removable gear routes (in fact, that's part of the exam). Because many multi-pitch routes in the Alps (and other locations) likely end in snow at some point at the top, I bet that's why the IFMGA is required, though, why someone wouldn't be allowed to simply stop before that is odd to me. Maybe it's about enforcement (or a lack of ability to do so)?

I think AMGA is related - it must be, I mean, they're all kind of related somehow aren't they? I'm not saying that US is related to the Italian modules, but that the governing concepts (and orgs) that are multi-national in scope must be related. 

I think I need to check AMGA more than I had. I might have gone about this in a reverse engineering kind of way. Quite eye opening though. Glad this has been a good discussion.

I'm going to bang off an email to IAMAS, I'll let you know how it goes.