UKH

It’s about time been we had another sea kayaking thread on UKC. It's been a good year and looking forward to much more in 2024. One on the list is to combine kayaking with climbing. Has anyone done much of this? Whether a tidal approach to the Diamond on Little Orme, paddle to and climb on Lundy (as mentioned recently on another thread) or something more challenging on Greenland? I’m particularly struck on the idea of a kayak approach to some of the less accessible climbing at the southern end of the Outer Hebrides. 

In reply to kevin stephens:

I have only started sea kayaking this year when we moved to mid Argyll. I reckon I'm not at the stage of combining it with anything else yet, but it sounds like fun. I would be interested to hear what folks are up to!

So far, all I combine sea kayaking with is breakfast on a beach! Lol

In reply to kevin stephens:

I like the concept but I think abbing into a kayak might take a bit of practice though.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

There are ways and means........

In reply to kevin stephens:

We have sea kayaked into Loch Coruisk to do the Dubhs ridge a couple of times, a wonderful expedition. Another time we camped at Fidden farm on Mull and accessed the Erraid crags by kayak, we somehow managed to lose our car key on one of those paddles and had to break the car window to get the other one - car keys and sea kayaking are often an issue and worth thinking about in advance! Agree a safe place to keep the key, to avoid a lot of faff. All fairly tame and definitely doable by less experienced paddlers I guess.

In reply to kevin stephens:

Ha ha - nope, not me!  The nearest I've got to it (as a near complete beginner in a kayak a few years back) was to paddle over to the JMCS hut at Coruisk from Elgol for a few days scrambling/walking - I got lucky with the weather and had a couple of glorious days in the mountains, and a very relaxed semi-rest day in between paddling around Soay and exploring the island a little bit.  Loading up the kayak to paddle across to the hut from the slipway at Elgol certainly beats walking in with a heavy rucksack!

Did you know already that Fi and James Corfe have just set out on their latest bonkers expedition?  They're aiming to paddle around Tasmania and put up some new rock routes along the way - their kayaks were damaged in transit, so they've had a few days climbing in the Arapiles while they were being repaired, and I think they've just now paddled across the Bass Strait and got underway.

If you put "Kayak 2 Climb Tasmania" in the search box on Facebook, they're posting regular updates on there.  Don't know if they're doing any other social media type stuff as they go.  I think there's a dot you can watch somewhere.  And I believe James Stevenson and Simon Osborne are flying out there at some point to film, so there's eventually going to be some top quality footage of at least part of their expedition.

Olly Sanders is your man there.  I don't know how many times he's done it (more than a couple of times anyway, with various different partners), but here's one from a while ago: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/greenland_new_routing_-_drowni...

You just missed an 'expedition symposium' at PyB, the first I think and quite successful so maybe they'll do it again next year: https://pyb.co.uk/expedition-symposium-2023/

There was a fantastic weather window in May this year (while I was stuck indoors working on a really boring project!)  At one point it seemed like everyone I know had paddled around Pabbay, Mingulay etc..  It could definitely be done, but you're incredibly exposed on the sea out there and potentially an awfully long way from help out there if it goes wrong.  I guess you'd want a really settled spell of weather, and you'd have to bear in mind that the longer you stay the higher the risk of getting stranded waiting for the right conditions to paddle back.  Perhaps a bigger group than just the two of you would mean having to make fewer compromises to fit climbing gear in with everything else.  And I imagine the thing that would really make or break the feasibility of a longer stay is whether or not there's a supply of fresh water on whichever island you're going to.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Dunno about that, but it's often struck me that a sit-on-top or a paddleboard might make an excellent platform for some DWS shenanigans.

In reply to deepsoup:

Yep, not hardcore but idyllic , I may do something similar in the summer 

Yes I saw their Webinar on OSK - I will be really interested to see how they get on

I was thinking of a short hit on one of the islands without a water supply that hence gets visited less often, therefore needing a shorter and more predictable weather window

But I think the biggest danger (which I as warned about on UKC a few years ago) would be finding the climbing boring and being eager to get back on the water instead.  Indeed I wonder if the faff of trying to combine the two activities would outweigh and detract the combined pleasure, it may be fun to try something not too complicated 'though.

In reply to kevin stephens:

There is one upside - when bagging a jungle covered tiny island off Argyll a couple of years back, I was tripped by a vine and fell heavily into the edge of a quartzite block. If I were not on a small island it would have been a rescue.  I could just make hobbling to the beach and was able to paddle out.

Not paddling, but getting off some of these small islands in a swell can be interesting. Timing a jump off the last holds to the boat so as to catch it at the top, not falling away from you.

In reply to kevin stephens:

So maybe a day trip somewhere, leaving the tent etc. behind?

If it's more about the 'adventure' than the quality of the routes, something like the Bernera Islands* maybe?  Difficult to land on with a bigger boat, but if you're up for a rocky landing in your (relatively lightly loaded) kayak maybe you could find a place to haul it up above the high water mark.

*They were too esoteric to make it into the print version of the SMC Outer Hebrides guidebook, so the guide is available online here: https://scottishmountaineeringpress.com/product/outer-hebrides-guidebook-su...

Edit to add:
Not really in the spirit of the OP, but I guess you could always look at kayaking in to something a bit more mainstream instead of the more usual approach?  Paddle round to the Old Man of Stoer from Clashnessie or Culkein, for example.

In reply to kevin stephens:

My feeling is that sea kayaking simplifies your life once you've launched.....why complicate it.

In reply to deepsoup:

Yes Bernera was exactly what I was thinking of. Lots of fun practising swimmy towliney rocky landings/launching on Anglesey last weekend, although as you say would need to minimise weight of climbing gear to avoid excessive stress of the physical and mental kind

In reply to Phil1919:

Yes indeed

In reply to Phil1919:

A walk simplifies your life much more, once you're walking.  So what you're really asking there is "why climb?"  Well why indeed, but it's a funny question to be asking on here.

In reply to deepsoup:

It was offered as a sea kayaking thread. 

Sea kayaking in my experience is the ultimate self contained adventure where weight is an advantage, destinations more remote, and the inherent dangers keep you effectively more in the present than walking. A 'proper' trip to the Hebrides needs to allow enough time for setbacks etc. It would spoil it for me. Just an opinion. If it was a climbing trip which used kayaks just for access, fair enough.

In reply to kevin stephens:

Always thought about it but there are many pragmatic considerations that sort of weigh against, particularly if more than a short trip, all of which have been touched on already.
You’d need a large sized expedition boat to take the extra volume of full climbing kit along with the camping, paddling and food (plus possibly water). It’s surprising how the space evaporates when just adding walking boats and rucksacks.  In a standard boat overpacked you’d be fairly dead in the water

Then there is the dilemma of what to do with the good weather.

Finally there would be the nawing -at -back -of -your -mind factor of not getting stuck and/or what conditions you could paddle a overloaded boat back out in, or what you’d do if you got out and found the landing had surf or dumping waves on it. A swim landing with a loaded boat would be an entirely different proposition than a in light boat unladen.

There are surprisingly few offerings where a sea kayak makes sense for climbing, and you don’t need to wait for summer.  Barrisdale and climbing on Ladhar Bheinn in winter, springs to mind. Short and sheltered enough that you can get there in the dark if needed, and/or overloaded and only need a brief weather window to get in/out. Cuts the walk in/out and let’s you have more luxury. Obviously getting the tides to avoid beach packing faff, in conjunction with the weather and conditions is another complication.

Ive done in winter by kayak for walking with axe and ‘pons for a few days and it worked well (had the hills entirely to myself), obviously lots of people have paddled in to walk there in summer.

Others include Kylesku if very hard freeze, and Coruisk as mentioned. Though there were always rumours about a party that had to walk out leaving thier boats one late autumn (and they were apparently strong paddlers), and it took Gordon Brown, and several seasoned paddlers weeks to find a suitable window to go and recover the boats for them.

In reply to Phil1919:

Or to put it another way, sea kayaking is much more akin to mountaineering than climbing is these days

In reply to Phil1919:

Of course - mine too.  Whether it's a climbing trip by kayak or a kayak expedition with climbing, it's all very subjective innit.  Just because we disagree, doesn't mean either of us is right or wrong.

For what it's worth I find the inherent dangers of being on the water do much less to keep me 'in the moment' than the environment and the wildlife - which I also experience during a walk around my local woodland while the birds are singing, with very much less faff and equipment.  At least while those dangers are largely hypothetical - which they really should be most of the time on a well-planned expedition.

If you're setting out deliberately to find 'wild' conditions to paddle in, that's different.  (And it's my favourite kind of paddling - but not something I'd usually choose to do in a boat heavily laden with climbing or camping gear, let alone both.)

In reply to kevin stephens:

Maybe for some. 

Mine is more like a day's cragging most of the time: deliberately choosing a route that requires unnecessarily difficult and technical moves, sometimes with potentially serious consequences if they're fluffed but more usually knowing that failure will probably result in nothing worse than a bruised ego because your gear and your partner(s) will keep you safe enough to get back on and have another go.

In reply to deepsoup:

I think we may be in danger of disappearing down a rabbit hole of semantics?

For me rock climbing is following a pre defined route with known and fixed obstacles while usually being attached to a rope, partner and ultimately the crag

Sea kayaking is much more about choice of route and challenge, whether and when to run a particular gully or ride a particular wave, environmental awareness of what the elements are doing and going to do with you, self reliance and skills to deal with it if it goes tits up, not to mention the sense of exploration, navigation, sense of being on a journey, wonderment at the seascape and wildlife etc etc. Yes mutual reliance on (and craic with) partners in challenging places but not quite the same as asking for a tight rope. Having a Plan A and (hopefully )Plan B if the conditions turn against you.

Not quite like a day at Stanage or Horseshoe.  Gogarth comes closer - but that's how I got lured into sea kayaking a few years ago

In reply to deepsoup:

Yes, it's easy to be talking at cross purposes on here when we probably agree. If we are talking 'proper' trips though, there has to be some sort of commitment which usually can exposes you to unexpected conditions that bring on that highly attuned 'being present' feeling based on danger rather than interest. Slightly stronger winds than expected, exposed headlands, sections visually hidden from all means of help, bigger swell than expected, wind against tide. I like the description, not completely true, that sea kayaking is like cricket......boring but dangerous.

Yes, the faff and equipment are a factor......until you launch.

You've got the wildlife/environment factor as well of course. You're completely in and surrounded by it.

In reply to Phil1919:

Are we?  Well maybe that's the thing - I'm not at all sure that most of what I'm talking about is what you would call a 'proper trip'.

Of course you're right about that, and I too find that real danger concentrates the mind wonderfully.

But the most obvious thing about 'unexpected conditions' for me is that they're unexpected - ie: by definition they're not what you're actually experiencing most of the time.  And during the majority of the time that you're not actually in those conditions the danger is purely hypothetical.

Ha - I'd heard that said about sea kayaking but not cricket.  It is quite funny, and a little bit true, some of the time.  At other times it's not remotely true - and I think it's a bit of a shame that it's sometimes something that deters people (perhaps younger people and white water paddlers especially) from having a go.

I spend a lot of my time in a sea kayak messing about in the tide races around Anglesey - it's lots of fun, exciting even, and for the most part relatively safe.  I've done a few downwind runs that were wildly exciting, and actually quite dangerous. 

Not being so much into the big open crossings I have very little personal experience of boring and dangerous. (ie: keep paddling on this bearing for another three hours, after which if you still can't see land you might not survive.)

True that.  Once you're on the water, especially solo and not having to put every decision through the committee, the faff all falls away.

In reply to Phil1919:

Now I feel inclined to point out that cricket is not boring!

In reply to CaptnSiNich:

I think that's the point. Anyone who hasn't played it might disagree when you tell them that the match lasts 5 days : )  

In reply to deepsoup:

Yes, I got carried away. I realise that the poster was really talking about access to a climbing venue. 

Wow, I saw an amazing tidal race/wind over tide scenario off Holyhead somewhere a long time back.

In reply to Phil1919: Maybe it would have been more accurate for me to title the thread Climbing for Sea Kayakers

In reply to kevin stephens:

Of course - this is UKC!

That isn't rock climbing, that's a rock climb.  (ie: one specific route.)  And you don't know precisely what the moves are that you're going to have to make once you're committed in order to return to safety, especially if you're climbing a route for the first time. 

But you do have a broad idea of what's required, how hard it's likely to be, and how severe the consequences will probably be if you mess it up.  Same same.

When you go to Stanage to climb you spend the whole day choosing your routes and your challenges.

All that other stuff, self-reliance, wonderment, exploration, navigation - let's just call it 'adventure' - you might not find that at Stanage on a bank holiday weekend but it's all available on land at a level of commitment well short, I think, of what you would call 'mountaineering'.

In reply to Phil1919:

Nah, you're making fair points.  Especially if the climbing venue in question is an island you'd also be needing to take camping gear to, for an overnight stay or longer.  Of the two of us, I'm probably the one getting carried away.

The Anglesey coast and especially those three big headlands West of Holyhead (North and South Stack and Penrhyn Mawr) frequently are quite amazing.  I have loads of photos taken on the water around there in wonderful conditions, and some taken from the land when it was utterly terrifying.  We're really quite privileged in the UK to have a coastline with so many wonderful areas for paddling in.

In reply to deepsoup:

A little further south, but I do remember one of our party combining kayaking and then climbing (followed by hauling) on a trip from Rhoscoyn to Trearddur. To me, the climbing looked slightly more terrifying than continuing with the kayaking.

More locally to me, if bouldering counts, a few  gentle paddles from St Bees to Fleswick Bay has been far more relaxed 

In reply to kevin stephens:

This summer (or was it last!) I sea kayaked in from Ardmair to explore and do some routes round the coast from there. It was bliss and saved time rather than a pain of a walk. For a fun day it felt more magical than just climbing, or just kayaking. But I imagine as others have said it's very different on a committing multi-way trip for many reasons.

In reply to kevin stephens:

The best trip we did to combine both was Gola Island just off the coast of Co Donegal in Ireland. A ferry from Stranraer to Larne and a drive to the west coast got us to our push off at Magheragallan jetty.

Granite climbing, paddling through a huge arch and 5 days wild camping on an empty island with a double rainbow to top it off. My wife stuff some vids up for anyone wanting any more info.

There's an old article on here with a lot of logistics if paddling is not your thing.

In reply to kevin stephens:

you could do a lot worse than to come down the Guernsey - good sea kayaking around the island, and across to the other islands in the archipelago - Herm is 2 miles away, Sark 8, Alderney 22.  Plenty of climbing for a holiday trip.  Kayaks could make access easier at some crags, but you're invariably going to be landing on rocks/boulders, and need to cope with a potential 10m tidal range.

In reply to Toerag: I think if I went to Gurnsey the sea kayaking would take precedence over the climbing  

In reply to kevin stephens:

For those interested, Fi and James Corfe are currently somewhere in the Bass Strait, having departed from Australia with the plan of circumnavigating Tasmania and paddling back to Australia, sea cliff climbing en route. Can follow on Facebook “kayak 2 climb Tasmania”.