UKH

It's that time of year again. Any time now the seasonal tide of posts warning of freshers' meets will give way to a shower of tedious threads appearing on the theme of "Last night a firework made my dog unhappy for a part of the evening. Even though he's already forgotten it ever happened, fireworks must therefore be banned"

This comes up every year about now, repeatedly and reliably. I'll say up front I don't have any particular allegiance and could happily live in a world with neither, but before you start calling for banning something I thought we could have our annual objective look, mostly last year's leftovers but very lightly reheated again for 2023, at which we'd have to get rid of if we were genuinely acting for the greater good. We can gather some stats to inform any debate that follows.

Let's take the regularly cited discussion points one by one...

1. Injuries

W39 Discharge of firework: 109 admissions, 167 bed days

W54 Bitten or struck by dog: 9277 admissions, 11201 bed days

Source - NHS Digital, Hospital Episode Statistics for England. Admitted Patient Care Activity [External causes], 2022-23 https://files.digital.nhs.uk/9B/BA2EC1/hosp-epis-stat-admi-ext-caus-2022-23...

Subsection - Fatalities:
Fireworks: can't find reports of any since 2018. Going further back some data here: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/101196/pdf/
Dogs: 2022 - 10. 2023 - 8 so far.
Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingd...

I can already hear the responses to this. "Yes but that's only dangerous breeds", "MY dog would never do that. The sun shines out of MY dog's arse", "He's just playing" etc... so it's worth mentioning that while the really really dangerous breeds of fireworks are only available to professionals for public displays, recent high-profile cases highlight that any dickhead can own a dog that turns out to be dangerous.

2. Carbon footprint

London's NYE fireworks display: 262kg CO2

Source - https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mgla021117-3038_-_attachment....
See also https://fantasticfireworks.co.uk/news/the-carbon-footprint-of-fireworks/

One dog: 770-2500kg CO2e/yr
(various sources; google it)

(Footnote: If there are 12 million dogs in the UK, take a minute to work out what that is relative to some of the things we're routinely told we should stop doing, and then pause to let that sink in.)

3. Noise

Animal noise seems to be the nuisance 3rd most complained about to local councils. Fireworks aren't in the top 10. https://www.directlinegroup.co.uk/en/news/brand-news/2020/09062020.html 

A bit more digging reveals FOI requests to a load of councils. These all seem to stem from a campaign by the fireworks industry in 2018 encouraging people to send FoI requests to councils. There was a thread on a fireworks forum that has the responses, but it now requires a login. You can use the wayback machine if you want but easier to skip it and go straight to its sources:

A recent one here shows a ratio of 157:4 https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1018805/response/2433175/attach/2/CA...
and 436:6 here  https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/892263/response/2161496/attach/2/Res...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-33534403 roughly supports that ratio with 3454 to 16. As does https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/noise_complaints_2275#incoming-21151... with 319 to 4. In fact there are countless FOI requests that corroborate this. You can search on whatdotheyknow and find absolutely loads - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/list/successful?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=fir...

So it looks like there are a few hundred noise complaints about barking dogs for every one complaint about fireworks. A couple orders of magnitude in it whichever numbers you choose.

Last year there were a few responses to this section along the lines of 'my neighbour/relative with dementia/PTSD is triggered by fireworks', so to pre-empt those, before you post have a think about how similarly afflicted people would get on with a constantly barking neighbour's dog, and remember that you don't get a break from the latter; it happens all year round.

4. Detritus littering the countryside

Do we even need to cover this? Those knotted plastic bags aren't full of spent fireworks.

5. Stressing livestock

Hard to find out numbers on how many head of livestock don't recover after hearing loud bangs, but easy to find out how many are killed by dogs: https://www.gov.scot/publications/sheep-attacks-harassment-research/pages/2...
https://www.nfumutual.co.uk/media-centre/uk-cost-of-dog-attacks-rises-by-50...

And didn't take long to find that according to at least one source neosporosis is the leading cause of lost calves. 

https://www.countryfile.com/wildlife/mammals/neosporosis-the-hidden-danger-...
https://www.faifarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Dogs-livestock.pdf

I think it fair to say dogs take this category too.

Conclusion

So, if inexplicably you're still reading, in conclusion to remove all these problems we need to ban dickheads. But nobody has put forward a workable plan for that so we instead end up arguing about banning something that dickheads can buy. Now to be clear I really don't care either way and am simply trying to get some hard data out there before the high horses are all saddled up. But if you're going to clamour for banning something, and are prepared to choose objectively on the grounds of which is more deleterious, not that much has changed since last year's edition and it's still not looking great for Fenton.

Congratulations on a well-researched rant.

youtube.com/watch?v=J6PjQQtE9tM&

Having spent 9 long years living next door to Yappy the all day wonder dog, all I can say is 'mon the fireworks.  (I am also a chemistry teacher so may be a wee bit biased).

That’s a good public service you’re developing.

How can anyone hate fireworks?  Humans and fireworks have evolved together over the last 3,000 years! /s

I think firework safety could be improved by giving them a surface coating that will not stick to duct tape…
 

Dogs are miles better than cats. 

It is a completely reliable, scientific fact that 99.993% of all annoyances I’ve experienced in life have originated either in other people or the weather.

I’m not in favour of banning either.

I am in favour of shoulder shrugging and surreptitious tutting.

But to be fair, saying something is better than cats is setting a very low bar.

It's been scientifically proven beyond reasonable doubt that cat haters are sad, miserable losers

Serious question: do cats freak out at fireworks ?

Plus the atmospheric pollution from the metals (used for the colours (PM, particulate matter)) and other toxins like VOC’s and UFP’s.

Surely no one will be able to afford them this year?  🤔

I read about a survey which showed that 87% of fireworks were let off in council estates. The remaining 14 % were set of at organised displays and the rest were set off at New Year celebrations. 

Yes the number of excessive external Christmas/Halloween decorations and ott use of fireworks does seem to be inversely proportional to the affluence of an area.

The last big firework shenanigans were for Charlie’s new hat day.

Bloody parvenu peasants

Can't recall any of my cats ever reacted overly. I think my old Charlie was so laid back a rocket up his @rse wouldn't have got him off his cushion

yes. Both of mine are utterly terrified of them - especially the ones that make fizzling noises. It really is very upsetting indeed to see quite how much they are affected. 

That's the most incorrect statement I've seen this year on UKC.

My 3 are completely unphased by fireworks. 

Anyone who thinks this is a control freak. FACT.

I remember when every corner shop sold them to anyone who looked vaguely over 12. There were school safety films about don't eat lighted fireworks or something too. We've come a long way.

Fireworks are not sentient beings. 

Some do, some don't. We had 6 at one point in our household (cats,  not fireworks 😉) but only 1 got freaked out at this time of year. And it was the 1 we'd have least expected.

I have no idea what your OP is advocating (or not.)

However, for the record: I detest fireworks. I dislike random noise foisted on me by other people.

If it's dogs versus fireworks then I think the fireworks will probably win.

Depends on the firework and the dog - banger vs Wolfhound, no contest.

but put this little baby to work and even Cerberus would play dead…
 

youtube.com/watch?v=is5u5uhyc6s&

‘Loaf of bread, 10 Benson and Hedges, and a Springer Spaniel please.’  Aye, them were the days.  

More FACTs:

How many people have you heard of being pulled from an avalanche by a Search And Rescue firework?  

And how many Post men and women have been bitten by a firework ?

So there’s two reasons why dogs are better than fireworks. 

You mean like these?? https://zacstracs.com/emergency-pencil-flares/

But (there's always a but) - what if you are lying injured out on a dark night and the rescue are so close and can't see you? You have a firework and a dog. Which of these would you light the blue touch paper on? Clue: not the one that would happily survive for days eating your dead body.

Sorry,I can't find the source but from personal observation...

Fireworks hanging in plastic bag on bush = zero

Dog shit in plastic bag hanging off bush= I've lost count 

People who chuck fireworks about without caring the damage they cause aren't (in my humble opinion) sentient beings either.

(Mind you - nor are the "persons" who own dangerous dogs).

I imagine if you lit the dog it would bark and alert the rescuers. Job done. 

And which, we might also ask ourselves, is the preferred option for sticking up one's arse when celebrating sporting successes?

Sorry; you're suggesting postpersons being bitten is a good thing...?

What a weird post.

You're comparing two completely different things using the same criteria.  How odd.  Maybe we should compare Spaghetti Bolognaise to Christmas and see which we should ban?

You’re quite right.

The 8 fatalities, 9,277 hospitalisations and one assumes far more sub-admission level physical injuries are caused by sentient beings.

Staggering.

"what if you are lying injured out on a dark night and the rescue are so close and can't see you? You have a firework and a dog. Which of these would you light the blue touch paper on? Clue: not the one that would happily survive for days eating your dead body."

Hope it's a brightly coloured dog.

Are you the ghost of Christmas pasta?

Farfallalalalalala

Time to drag out the same thing I say every year. 

We don't need to ban fireworks, what we need to ban is the military grade ordnance that are sold as fireworks. 

There is no place for the public to be able to buy multi shot repeating air bombs that are powerful enough to shake the house windows from 3 streets away. 

laika set the bar very high. 

If you were bothered about public health the car should be banned, and so should alcohol both bigger public health issues that dogs.  

What about dogs in a car with a drunk driver launching fireworks out of the window?

Do christians spend weeks moaning and whining and trying to get spag bol outlawed at the same time every year?

Is this an argument? 
It just seems like out of context data to me just like the OP. 
What’s your position exactly, or are you simply picking a fight?
 

Shhh, you'll get the Mail rilled up about the perils of Lord Protector Starmer

What are you on about?

What is your overall argument in this thread? I honestly have no idea.

Fireworks good

Dogs bad

I think 

Of course, the Brits have not much clue about how to do fireworks. It's rare you even see Guy Fawkes these days

If you want to see a proper fireworks festival, go to Las Fallas in Valencia, which happens around Easter time. Fantastic burnable art and epic displays - much better than the other Spanish offerings, being pelted with tomatoes or gored by a bull.

Some brits do. It's a big thing down here in Sussex. Even small towns will have a burning parade and a large hate figure will get burned. Some of the choices for this figure have been a bit controversial... 

I’m just having a laugh. 

Have you been preparing this since 6th Nov last year?

Its also important to remember things could be worse.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-67205192

Do fireworks excitedly run to the door and welcome you home when you walk through the door?

Or is Christmas good company for a walk in the countryside?

Weird topic this. 

…..Yet

I mean, the OG celebration of burning an effigy of a catholic and basically celebrating god’s protection of a Protestant kingdom (Presbyterians will dispute this characterisation of the church in England..) wasn’t exactly woke tbf

This is much more like it. But I’ve always felt sorry for Guy Fawkes. After all, he was just trying to do a good thing!

I like how you were the one to start off the tedious thread about dogs and fireworks.

For god's sake, does no-one listen to The Archers?  Justice for Sadie the horse!

I'm with Dax, though - the size of the fireworks that moron members of the public can buy (and let off whenever they feel like it from mid October to New Year) is ridiculous now.

cats do

That’s an attempted trip, not a welcome

Not so much in my experience - limited study of 1 cat, though. She just used to hide behind the sofa.

At the moment, we have 2 rabbits. I can mow the lawn right past them in the garden and they're fine with that noise, but will freak out when a plane flies over at 30,000' - probably instinct against a raptor-shaped predator! They didn't seem bothered by fireworks last year, just carried on munching hay.

Rubbish! My old Charlie used to wait until he heard the clank of the gate and then come running down the garden to greet me. Call me an old sentimental anthropomorphic fool but he sure seemed glad to see me. Closely followed by the food bowl being filled which I will admit possibly had a lot to do with it.

FTFY

What about dogs in a car with a drunk driver launching fireworks out of the window, after forcing his family to eat leftover spag bol on Xmas day.

You slacker

Families are more dangerous than dogs or fireworks:

"Of the 114 domestic homicides, 67 victims were killed by a partner or ex-partner (down from 74), 27 were killed by a parent, son or daughter (down from 32) and 20 were killed by another family member (up from 15)."

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/article...

Maybe best to fairly contrast with the massive  upsides rather than overly focus on the sad downsides of our loves.

I think that was Series 68, Episode 439 of "Police Motorway Interceptor Cops" on Channel 5.

Edit: With the aftermath featured in "A&E Nightmare Patients after Dark"

Do the police have a special scumcam? The fleeing scrote always glows green even when they hide in a wheely bin.

Thread juxto:

"Dogs vs fireworks, 3rd edition"

"Explosions for kids"

If my cat is badly freaked out:

• Sleep
• Bang
• Ear twitch 
• Sleep

Rabbit I had as a kid didnt care but then she would also try and get of her run to attack any cats which dared enter her garden. Possibly not the most sane bunny in the world.

My sisters ones were terrified by fireworks and froze completely solid when out in the run. Once brought inside they didnt pay any attention. So they ended up being house rabbits from about now for the rest of the winter.

Fireworks are for one night a year, while people own dogs all year. If we factor the admissions up by 365 you get 39,785.

Where do you live !?

Round here it isnt the fireworks but the car exhausts. Its gone from some idiots having them pop when changing gear to sounding like an artillery barrage when some underpowered piece of crap drives along.

They sound like smart rabbits that had figured out a good system for getting out of the cold!

You have won the internet, chapeau.

"Fireworks are for one night a year,"

One of the benefits of living in a small community in Scotland.  (two nights actually).  However I used to live in Wolverhampton where it was over 2 months.

I'd been wondering where this entire season of fireworks was happening. I've lived various places but never heard fireworks much outside of the week around Bonfire Night and New Year itself. Occasionally a little around festivities for other cultures depending on the communities in the area.

We had 4 cats, 4 rabbits. 

Now have 2 dogs and 1 rabbiteft. 

2 of the cats were not bothered by fireworks, 1 was a bit on edge but okay, one was terrified. 

Of the 4 rabbits, didn't care. 

2 dogs,  1 doesn't care, one is a total basket case. 

Having just my normal happy rescue greyhound reduced to a quivering wreak this evening I loathe with every fibre fireworks.  If you want firsthand experience I’ll pay for you to travel here and try walking my dog after dark and see what he’s been reduced to.  I feel awful taking him out, insisting he goes out as feel as I’m doing this to him.  If you think causing psychological damage to animals or people with these damnable things is ok, you are very much mistaken.  If it was for one night, that’s ok I can take him away from the noise.  I cant for 2-3 weeks.  I hope he’ll 

My neighbours with the endlessly barking pooch have gone away somewhere to escape from the fireworks noise for a few days. The sound of fireworks last night was nothing short of BLISS in comparison - I could actually watch TV without headphones for once.

More fireworks more often please

How do you make a cat bark ? Throw petrol on it and then a lit match.

WOOF

I enjoyed this post on a local Facebook group:

"Some selfish idiot was already setting off fireworks last night, and it's not even November! Scared my cat so much it's run up the Christmas tree".

Can we put the car on a treadmill, just for old times sake?