UKH

We're on the lookout for a Keyholder to join our Ambleside Alpkit Team, as a key holder for the store you will support the Store Manager in driving sales and providing world class customer service.

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No mention of pay yet again

And the salary is in the region of...?

Clap for hero's, lol

Cape included?

I am the keymaster, are you the gatekeeper? 

Minimum wage or just above i would presume, that's what most of the other outdoor stores in Ambleside are offering.

I assume that if you haven’t the initiative to phone up and ask then you may not have sufficient initiative to fulfil the role

Im my professional engineering experience salary ranges are rarely advertised these days, but freely discussed once initial contact has been made. I see a similar approach for many other fields of work. 
I have always found that the most enjoyable and rewarding companies to work for are those without fixed salary levels. I certainly wouldn’t use your assumption as a reason not to investigate a potential opportunity further .

Incidentally this morning I had an email from one of the UK’s most respected outdoor companies notifying me of a senior job opportunity, not for me but “excellent salary” with no numbers given.  
If you prefer to only apply for jobs with a stated salary range, may I suggest:

https://people.mcdonalds.co.uk/opportunities/restaurant/crew-member?utm_sou...

My experience of engineering companies who are unwilling to include a salary range in their initial adverts/contacts is that they are nearly always trying to pay less than the going rate.

Ultimately, a job is a transaction: the employer is purchasing the employee's time and expertise in return for money. 

Not including any indication of how much the company is willing to pay for that transaction is a waste of everybody's time. They had time to write 8 paragraphs about the role, but they didn't include a few words showing what they are willing to offer in return.

It's fine to show quite a large range if that range is dependent on skills/experience/qualifications etc. Not including anything immediately sets off alarm bells where prospective employees are likely to assume the employer is trying to get someone to do the job for well under the market rate. 

Well our experiences vary. In my field salary was related to how much revenue one was able to bring in, customer satisfaction and retention etc. I wouldn’t expect specialist retail to be very different?

My main point is that it seems churlish in the extreme to ignore a possible job opportunity because you want to make a point by not phoning up to enquire about the salary range, and how your previous track record may influence it

Outdoor companies, climbing walls, and most companies that advertise jobs through UKC rarely put a salary on job adverts because it's typically quite low for an equivalent job.

The roles are attractive to people because they will work with likeminded people in an area they are interested in and sometimes come with benefits like free climbing/staff discount. That tends to mean that companies will offer as little as possible in the ways of financial reward because they know plenty of people will be applying, which tends to reflect less positively on them in a public setting (and people would quickly pile on about how you could earn a better wage at Maccy Ds). 

This makes for an interesting read https://www.reed.co.uk/recruiter-advice/why-you-should-always-state-salary-...

The successful candidate will be:

• Strong
• Fast
• Fresh from the fight

Salary ranges are compulsory in several parts of the USA and assume that pressure will get stronger in the UK too. 

I'm sure Alpkit are nicer employers than many but it's true that huge parts of the economy run off minimum wage or just above.

If you are looking to hire a permanent aspirant manager ie not a student from the local university site looking for a part time job, then the salary is critical. Ever looked at the buying or renting prices within a commutable distance of Ambleside? 

Even more reason to just phone up and ask…

That has genuinely surprised me. admittedly it's been 26 years since I last went job hunting but back then, every job advertised in the professional arena would specify the salary scale quite near the top. 

#vanlife #psyched

Suppose you ring up and ask? Suppose they give you a straight answer. You then probably need to wonder why they didn’t do that in the first place. It just seems clumsy to me.

I think the reason why it's important to include a salary is that by not doing so, this very often this leads to discrimination. (Often it means there is not a set salary and pay will be by negotiation) Research shows that not showing salaries perpetuates gender and other minority pay gaps. 

It used to be a very common practice when advertising roles in charities probably for similar reasons that you find employers do it in the outdoor industry.

However a big campaign called #showthesalary has led to that changing. You can read a lot more about the reasons why it's important to show the salary on the #showthesalary website and although that campaign was set up to get charities to change their practice, I think it applies equally well to any sector.

https://showthesalary.wordpress.com/why-show-the-salary/

So although it appears a totally harmless practice, I think it's about much more than whether people have the initiative to phone up and ask.

Incidentally this is not specifically about Alpkit who in general I think are a great company, but lots of companies do this and I think it would be great to see it change.  

The other thing is that adverts without salary information result in 30% fewer applicants. Given that there is a shortage of people to fill these types of roles, especially in the Lakes. It seems a little shortsighted.

Agreed. Also, who do you call? Having quickly checked their careers page, there isn’t a specific named contact and telephone number for HR.

Calling the store in question will inevitably lead to a sales person answering who probably won’t be able to help.

It’s certainly not difficult to type “Salary from £X to £Y, dependent on experience.”

That may matter less than being able to fly, stop a bus full of children going over a cliff with your bare hands or rescue earthquake victims.

I feel I'm unlikely to want to abandon my current niche and lucrative career to work in an outdoor store; you may have missed the underlying point I was making. I'll leave it to your initiative to work out what that might be. 

Works if you've got a shower and tumble dryer at work. Try it in the lakes when it rains all of October and November. 

Charities / 3rd sector often take the p*ss. In it for the love yeah but love don't pay the rent. I remember seeing a 3rd sector job about 2011, so just as austerity started to bite. They wanted post grad quals, knowledge of energy efficiency/renewables plus community development and consultation experience. I met all the criteria but not for 16k mate!

Ignoring the (presumably) deliberate trolling; is there a prevalent tendency to overthink this?

I'm working part time in the charity sector at the moment. Pay and conditions are absolutely terrible for the staff whilst management are bank more in pension contributions than we earn. The organisation I work for is also guilty of not advertising pay in job notices.

Well, I've asked them and will let you know...

I'm allergic to fiery steeds (well any horse TBH). Would I make the shortlist?

I personally never understand why people work in that sort of environment. There are usually better paid jobs elsewhere. 

Presumably because maximising pay isn’t always the primary reason for working in a specific job or sector. Personally, I’m reasonably well paid, but I could find a better paid job elsewhere.

I'm looking. Saying that, there's no way I'm going to apply for a job when the salary isn't posted because it suggests that the employer is crap.

I'm not sure. (So that's me out.)

Are you larger than life?
When could you start?

It’s still worth a call as your assumption may be invalid. Although calling people “ heroes” does sound like appalling management guff and suggests a load of flowery waffle.

Well paid hero with remuneration and bonuses above  normal market rate maybe more attractive .

Do you remember those weird, cheesy and totally irrelevant wee stories Alpkit used to include with their product descriptions?

Just about!

I'm larger than I'd like to be

If the price is right, tomorrow!

This just isn't true.

Looking at the front page of job postings on UKC 11 have a salary listed, and 5 don't

(only counting one advert from each employer - if you count the multiple alpkit and sonder listings it's 11 to 8 in favour of showing salary still)

To me it's all alarm bells .. lots of waffle about assistant manager, key holder etc.. that means first in, last out, false fire or intruder alarm at 3am guess who is called out, boss goes to outdoor show you're left running the place etc... hopefully for something better than £1hour more than normal sales staff and a special 'assistant manager' badge. 

To be fair to them it does help them stand out as being different from others in the outdoor retail market. 

The waffle doesn't mean they're actually different though. Being a decent employer means, at an absolute minimum:

A) paying a decent and fair wage with good ts and cs

B) co-operating with staff and unions to make the workplace a pleasant and safe place to be

C) communicating well with employees about any changes

Friendly and whimsical language in job adverts doesn't give me any indication whether or not they fulfil these criteria.

Easy to find

https://eu.alpkit.com/pages/pay-and-benefits

Very good, but that's the information that I want to see in job adverts to see if an employer stands out from the pack. Rightly or wrongly, companies using faux friendly language puts me off (cf the back of oatly cartons).

To add to that, I can't help but feel that the Living Wage Foundation is a bit of a scam by a cartel of "responsible" employers to keep wage expectations low. The NLW (stupid rebranding of the NMW) is £10.42, whereas the living wage according to the foundation is £11 and hasn't been revised upwards in six months despite inflation being roughly 10% throughout that period. They present themselves as a campaigning organisation but to me it just looks like a badge that companies can buy that says "We're prepared to pay marginally above the absolute legal minimum. Aren't we great."

Wages in this country for the vast majority of people absolutely stink. We all have a right to expect more for our labour.

they operate in a competitive market ( there are plenty of outdoor retailers etc ) so unless we want to pay more for those goods then I doubt that it will change. 
 

sounds like it’s not a role for you … hero or not