UKH

The title is sort of a rhetorical question as I have some idea definitely of how they can fail, but I'm a bit more confused as to the "why?" or more to the point: why do some fail and some don't? The leaking boots in question are https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/footwear/mountain_boots/all_round_b1-b2_mou... so it seems I've had them for four years. I will have used them several times each winter since, for full mountaineering days, but not really a massive amount. From other UKC reviews I have two other pairs of Dolomite boots with Goretex lining and -touch wood- they are still working fine. I first thought one of the Torq Tech boots might have leaked a couple of years ago, but with subsequent uses - presumably where I avoided puddles more! - I had dry feet so I sort of forgot. But I wore them yesterday to go and climb Wildboar Clough (Winter) (II/III) in really miserable soggy weather and despite having shorty gaiters on with my over trousers over them, after climbing the clough, walking across the more to Shining Clough cliff (rough moorland pushing through heather and bilberry covered in now wet soggy snow), then descending from there and back along the valley to the car both of my socks were really wet in the toes and the front half of my feet.

Is it just lighter boots with synthetic outer materials that offer no water protection so are totally reliant on the goretex that have this problem? I have 16 year old Sportiva Trangos that I have absolutely hammered (see https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/camping/accessories/if_it_aint_broke_-_gear... ) - I would have thought the goretex lining must have worn out by now, but perhaps because they have a leather outers that keeps most water out?

I'm just idly speculating, so am interested in what types of goretex lined boot other people have that do leak and which don't?

My personal theory is that most footwear membranes fail fairly quickly. It's a really thin and delicate piece of fabric which will breakdown after repeated flexing and being abraded by any small piece etc of grit that get in there. The boot outer fabric determines if this is noticeable thought. Outers such as leather are pretty waterproof anyway so membrane failures are not as obvious, where as some synthetic fabrics are more like a mesh and just let any water through. 

Same pattern here, I had some synth B2 Hanwags that failed after 4 uses and yet I had an old pair of leather Meindl Burmas that lasted me 2 years heavy use before leaks started. Leather is better wearing but heavy. I only use heavy duty B2 synth but leather below that.

Probably more flexible boots ie b1and B2 are prone to weakening by continual membrane flexion whereas in rigid b3s this isn't a problem.

I had a pair of Scarpa Chamoz that leaked,   I found that insoles can be a cause.  

I use superset carbon, close enough  to my orthotic prescription but as I found the stiff insert edges dig into the liner causing wear and failure.  

I managed to repair the liner with seem sealer and tape the insole insert edges and have had no issues since.

Perhaps preemptive tapping of the high wear points may help liner life span.

Pretty much my take on it. I've never had a membrane boot/shoe that didn't leak after a fairly short period of use.

Loathe waterproof membranes, I get damp feet year round from overheating.

I've had non branded waterproof membrane boots in the past that were like that, but in more recent times Goretex and eVent lined ones have been pretty good. I don't use them much in summer because normally approach shoes or trainers work better for that. But for winter no problem and I do get sweaty feet.

Agree.  My B3 boots have been good, but my B1/B0 boots have been terrible for this.

That is a really good point. I use green superfeet and although I have a few pairs now of increasing decrepitude, I still pull them out of one pair of boots or shoes and shove them in the next. Never thought about doing it gently before but I will now! Cheers.

What Andypeak said about the membrane being fragile and the boots owner relying on the membrane rather than keeping the boot outer material  properly treating with a suitable waterproofing product. Some boot outers are naturally more water resistant than others, full grain leather as opposed to fabric..

Interesting. The waterproof on my shoes always fails really quickly, yet friends have no problems. I also use Superfeet. Had wondered if flat feet meant more pressure around the toes though (always where it fails).

very carefully dissect them and find out where they've failed and how. Would make for an excellent article. I'm sure you could find multiple dead pairs of boots to play with and compare.  Could be an excellent case for a change in trading  / manufacturing standards, i.e. if they have all failed at the flex point then changing the method of construction to combat that would be in order. Isn't there some sort of statutory right in the UK for return of things deemed to fail unacceptably early even if well out of guarantee?

I don't know, but if there is I'm sure it would be very difficult to prove what is unacceptably early. I don't think I'm going to chop them up, they still work great in drier conditions! But I might either fill them with water and see if any leaks outwards or put them in water so that it covers the toes and see if I can see water going in.

My experience if you fill the boots with water is that it is hard to find the actual point of failed fabric as it finds a way out and not necessarily at the same area of damage. Also most likely not show more than one point of failure.

Stuff them when dry with paper “fitted” fairly tightly inside the boots and after holding them in water, taking out the shaped paper you can spot the area or areas more easily, and a reasonable guess as to the amount, of leakage in each area more accurately. Doesn’t need to be held in water that long to note points of failure.

Or even better, use your foot in a sock, that way you can feel the wetness as soon as they leak

Except my feet are not that sensitive for that to works; maybe after they are well and truly wet!! Great if it works for others.

I've always found "waterproof" approach shoes fail really quickly at the points where the toe flexes. Some last longer than others but never a full year. I'd guess it's the same but takes a bit longer with boots. If they're stiffer or have a fairly waterproof upper then they'd conceivably last longer.

I don't think Ive ever had a pair of boots that stay waterproof more than a couple of months... 

I always assumed it was down to my foot shape (short but really wide) causing the membrane to fail.  At them moment my 1 season old winter boots are at the stage where one leaks and one doesn't. 

Summer boots are so leaky i just wear waterproof socks

(if any boot manufacturers want the waterproofness of their boots REALLY testing them i'm your girl!)

I think this is perhaps the most obvious and persistent example of 'the emperor's new clothes'  in kit design/marketing.

Goretex liners in boots always fail after fairly short periods. As someone here said its not as obvious in leather boots as they are fairly waterproof anyway. Goretex fails  early and causes overheating in warmer conditions. I had two pairs of Scarpa Rangers one with goretex and one without. The leather one was actually more waterproof and far more pleasant to wear in warm weather. I replaced them with an Altberg boot that I had made specifically without a goretex liner. I asked the guy at the factory why they did them with liners that fail. He said that people associate goretex with waterproofness so assumed it was better to have a goretex lined boot.

The most common reason for Goretex leaking that I have found is due to excessive movement of the foot within the shoe/boot caused by poor fit, with boots being too small leading to toes and toe nails wearing through the inner lining and the GTX membrane or there is too much volume in the boot causing the toe to rub against the top of the boot due to excess movement and again wearing through the inner liner and membrane. Another possibility is that the boots are too narrow causing the big toe joint or the little toe/nail to rub through the liner and membrane. You can usually feel with your finger inside the boot, from the toe joints forward, that there will be damage to the inner lining of the boot if this is the case.

The other reason is grit/small stones getting into the boot which can very quickly wear through the liner and membrane over the course of a relatively short walk. Which is why it is important to clean out the inside of your boots as well as treat the outside. This can happen anywhere and a lot of the time the damage is invisible.

These issues happens with any boot of course regardless of the outer material. It is just that with a well conditioned and waterproofed leather boot it is much less apparent due to the fact the leather is in fact pretty well waterproof on its own. Where as with a fabric style boots pretty much the only barrier to water entry is the membrane itself.

This thread is a depressing read since my walking boots are now knackered, and their obvious replacements from the same manufacturer are now only available with a goretex lining - something which I have been able to avoid up till now.

I think the "emperor's new clothes" quip above seems entirely apt. These things just don't seem to be a worthwhile idea.

Except for when they are I suppose! For me, the annoyance is some boots with GTX linings seem to leek quickly while other pairs keep their water proofness for years of hard use. It is the randomness of it that is annoying - although many people above have pointed to it perhaps not being that random after all!

Thanks everyone for their thoughts and experiences.

My Scarpa Peak GTXs started leaking after a year or so, and I mentioned this to the manager in Cotswold Outdoor (where I'd bought them) while buying a pair of boots for my daughter. He said to bring them in and that they would send them off to Scarpa. A couple of weeks later I got a call inviting me to come in and collect a new pair. The manager did say that the pair I had were not lined under the tongue due to the amount of stitching that goes around the edge, and that was probably why they leaked, and that the newer model was fully lined.

Not fit for purpose then. You should take them back and request a refund

Tramping the Munros is really testing for boots, and it's a choice between comfort and dry feet. I've gone back to leather, as I sometimes only get 3 months if I'm lucky out of a fabric boot. Walking every day with the dog is quite hard on boots, but I've been pleasantly surprised by a relatively cheap boot from Go Outdoors (the Snowdon) so good I immediately got a second pair at and …wait for it. All for £35 each!

That's an interesting recommendation Sean. Something I wouldn't ever have considered. Thanks!