UKH

Just come across this article. 

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pfc-bans-are-going-to-change-the-face-of-a...

So the question is what can replace Gortex? I can certainly remember the good old days before the advent of this wonder fabric. One was forever wet in winter. Must get myself a few new jackets before they all disappear. Going to stop manufacture in 2025. A sad day in some ways, but hopefully science can come up with a good alternative. I have ditched my worn-out gortex boots and replaced them with good old leather. Hopefully cows won't be curtailed just yet!

Is it all Goretex or just the shake & dry variety? The link only talked about their crinkly cycle wear.

Normal goretex has a fluorinated membrane as well, some sort of variation on PTFE.

All of the haters are just going to have to either get on the Paramo bandwagon or go back to Ventile.

The article says that regular ePTFE membranes will still be used because they don't biodegrade and therefore aren't considered a source of environmentally compromising PFC. 

So considering that it sounds like business as usual tbh minus shakedry. 

Indeed, it's just that shakedry fabrics rely more heavily on the hydrophobicity of the outside because they don't have a face fabric like most waterproof breathable materials.

The PFC issue has been a known thing with DWR treatments for a long time. Unfortunately, all the supposedly environmentally friendly alternatives I've used so far have been much inferior to the old environmentally harmful versions.

Yeah .. I mourn the good old days of lead paint and DDT 

Good riddance, I'd say. PFCs are nasty as $%^, there is already more of them in Antarctica snow than what is their legal limit for drinking water in most countries...

Oh, and no need to panic at all. I think you are just misunderstanding the (not very well written) article. It's not all the membranes that are getting increasingly banned, just the PFC ones.

Other non‑PFC membranes have been available for decades – with some pretty nifty advancements in the tech in the last few years, like nano‑tech – and there is a good chance your jacket's DWR is already PFC‑free (e.g. NikWax). Even Gore is shifting to an ePE membrane instead. They are discontinuing only ShakeDry, which frankly, while nice for running or cycling, wasn't anywhere durable enough to wear under a heavier backpack. And OutDry had a similar tech for years, so I don't think ShakeDry‑like jackets will just totally disappear.

Were either of these any better than what's currently available?

My understanding is that PFCs are used for the DWR, not the membrane.

Ithink lead paint is still considered more durable though dust from sanding is toxic and white yellows in the sun. I've read DDT has been revaluated for use against malaria carrying mosquitoes where the disease is common as it is cheap, long lasting, still effective and the cumulative toxicity risk may be worthwhile.

Hah, I like BOTH of those!

2025! No point in worrying then......we will be well past tipping points by then : )

Yes, might as well keep our foot on the accelerator😀

Havent worn a gore tex based shell in years. Proper soft shell for the win.

My understanding is that PFC’s are in the DWR coating, not the membrane, so Goretex will carry on, just the DWR will change. This was useful to read https://eu.patagonia.com/gb/en/our-footprint/pfc-free.html

Lead-containing exterior paint definitely is - modern stuff goes green with algae really quickly, old lead-containing greenhouse paint doesn't.

I recently bought a Gore-Tex Pro-Shell jacket made by a small Swedish brand called Tierra after using alternative membranes for a couple of years. I owned an Arc'teryx Alpha LT a couple of years ago and I must say the difference in the DWR is noticeable, meaning the newer one saturates quicker. Still not as quickly as some other polyester-based shells because polyamide beads off water more efficiently, but the move away from PFC DWR's is definitely noticeable. 

It's quite possible we'll just need to put up with that.  Modern gloss paints are for instance nearly all utter crap and yellow badly within weeks, even compared to the post-lead ones before they started using vegetable oils as the solvent.  The only way to get a nice gloss or eggshell finish these days seems to be to do about 3-4 coats of a water based paint, which isn't as durable and takes longer.  I did that in most of my rooms when I did my house up some years back - one "prototype" room did have traditional gloss and I might as well have done the paintwork in a pastel yellow.

Presumably Paramo is also affected as that relies on the DWR coating, indeed it relies on it more than Gore Tex does.

Nikwax as used on Paramo is PFC free, has been for a while.

The film 'Dark Waters' about the lawsuit against DuPont is well worth a watch.

Thanks.  Presumably the other manufacturers will just need to switch to a similar product?

Lead based paint systems were infinitely more durable than modern exterior paints.....they really penetrated the grain as opposed to forming a skin over it ..but modern microporous wood treatment systems are very effective and easy to use and hopefully less toxic....

Leaded petrol... now that's a whole different kettle of fish....

I noticed this when decorating recently. The worst example of this was when I glossed a few sliding cupboard doors, where the doors overlap there's a clear difference in shade.

At least the water based stuff doesn't stink as bad and doesn't make my nose run like the old oil based solvent paint does.

It's also easier to clean brushes.  It doesn't only have down sides, it had enough upsides that other than that one room my whole house is done with water based eggshell on the woodwork.  It's just a lot of effort to do it and not very durable.

"...It's just a lot of effort to do it and not very durable."

And doesn't flat out as well and isn't as glossy as oil based stuff.

Some of it also takes ages to dry.

Slap the water based stuff on with a roller and brush out. Bit of a pain and you need to work quick, but a good finish is possible.

I massively prefer the soft-sheen eggshell look.  Full gloss looks quite dated to me.  I also like it being bright, clean, sharp white, and not pastel yellow.

Has always been PFC-free.

Might be due to the quality of the paint.

Pretty sure no difference, quality for quality, between oil and water based. The actual paint, afaik, is the same. That's to say the paint molecules are suspended in solvent and then the solvent protected from water by an ester. So water evaporates off thegn ester. Which in cold weather can be a problem because ester goes first before water.

Or something like that. Quality paint is expensive.