UKH

Hi everyone,

Firstly I haven't used this much so if this post is is in wrong place/website please feel free move/delete appropriately!

I was looking for some advice if you wouldn't mind.....

My friend and I have experience hiking in summer (classics like ring of steall, three sisters of kintail, lawers 7 etc) and we are super keen to try some in winter.

Obviously crampons and ice axes are going to be required now if not soonish but we've never used them (and obviously don't have any).

So we were wondering if a winter skills course/an experienced friend is needed to show you how to use them properly?? (There is a wealth of info on the internet)

Are the demonstrations satisfactory or are there some things the internet just can't teach.

Any advice would be much appreciated... cheers!

Ps if reading up on it and practicing on lower slopes is fine, reccomendations of good beginner routes would be much appreciated too!!

In reply to Robert777:

It is something you can pick up - try it out on some nice round hills, places you know

In reply to Robert777:

Personally I'd rather get professional advice than learning from the internet.

You can do various courses through Tiso (they usually take you up to the Lawers range for them).

Before I started winter walking, I did a Winter Skills Course, which taught me the basics to stay safe, and to use winter equipment. Also a Winter nav course, because navigation in snow/whiteouts is very different to summer! And I think I did an avalalnche course as well.

All well worth the money.

In reply to craig1983:

Something that is very hard to get right without someone experienced helping you with it is ice axe arrests. Even though I know what I'm doing with them, l still practice then regularly in winter and like to get someone to watch and give feedback.

As mentioned above, avalanche and navigation courses are also well worth it.

In reply to Robert777:

I’d say you don’t need a course to get a hell of a lot out of the winter hills. Be prepared to turn round if you don’t like where you are and remember it gets dark early! In my experience walking crampons are by far the most useful kit to have. I’m going to be a heretic here but there is a lifetime of winter walking where an axe is a liability rather than help.

Having said all that I did do basic skills course years ago and really enjoyed it. Made me happier to pick my own routes and helped navigation no end.

In reply to Robert777:
Professional advice here: youtube.com/watch?v=94QFImjdEAo&

I'd recommend watching similar on use of crampons and an axe. Look for a local winter safety lecture, tiso has a series on the go at the moment and attend.

I'd also suggest that you limit the ambition on the first few trips and focus on skills instead, get a safe slope (can't hit anything if you slip and slide to the bottom) and practise skills in the videos until you are mega confident they work, gold standard on ice axe arrest is being able to arrest when sliding headfirst on your back. Wanna know popular places to practice?

I'd also recommend this; https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0954151135/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1511... which covers all you need to know, including weather/conditions, kit and navigation.

Experienced friends are incredibly useful, not just for getting the places right in different weather, but for recommending kit. eBay should provide crampons and an axe, but it's good to have experience telling you it's suitable (or post on here and be prepared to deal with the full spectrum of opinions.)

In reply to Robert777:

Firstly before I give my comment have to say that I work on "Intro Winter Skills" courses so it may be that my opinion is slightly biased!
For what its worth, while I am a great fan of just getting out there and learning as you go, I would definitely say you'd pick up more info and skills during a 2 day course than you would over 2 months, or even a season of getting out on your own! Also learning the hard way in winter, especially in Scotland isn't really an option!!!
If you do decide to just go for it, then as others have said be prepared to turn around, if it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't right! There's lots of good professional advice from the BMC and Mountaineering Scotland (videos too!) where you can to some extent self educate if you have the time. They also do subsidized courses btw, as do many others providers! https://www.mountaineering.scot/safety-and-skills/essential-skills
Try and get some advice before you buy those crampons and axes as well, it will save you money in the long run!
Sounds like you have a good grasp of the summer mountains but there's nothing quite like getting out in winter for a great day, enjoy!!

In reply to Robert777:

As with the post above my disclaimer is that I'm a freelance wml so involved in teaching these skills. Getting out and having a go is great and I recommend that you do lots of this but also be aware that you don't know what you dont know! Nothing beats expert coaching on technique, or some local knowledge with venue choice. A skills course or couple of 1:1 days with an instructor will give you a good idea of whats involved, from avalanche hazard avoidance, to winter nav. Walking in crampons and ice axe arrest are the easy bits! There are loads of excellent companies offering good courses around Fort William and the Cairngorms. I recommend Abacus Mountaineering, and West Coast Mountain Guides but probably a bit of personal bias creeping in there!

In reply to Robert777:

I am definitely biased, as I offer winter skills courses, but I would say you'll gain an awful lot from doing a course that you'll never pick up by watching youtube videos. Going out into the winter hills is very different from summer walking. Buying suitable axe and crampons is the start, then learning how to use you boot as a tool, and how to cut steps with the axe, then how to walk in crampons whilst not stabbing either yourself or those around you, and learning how not to trip over your own crampons. Then there's route choice, taking into account the weather, wind direction, snow conditions, freezing level, and avalanche dangers. Then there's winter navigation, when all paths are covered by snow, and you can't see most features such as cairns, walls, fences, ridges, crags, tarns, and all you have to navigate by is contour interpretation, distance measuring and a compass bearing. And that's in good visibility. In bad visibility you won't be able to make out contour features either, so being able to walk accurately on a bearing for a given distance is absolutely essential.

As I say, I am biased, and you will be able to learn some of this on your own, but personally I would get professional advice.

Hope that helps.

In reply to GrahamUney:

Here's another vote from the WML support group (evening, Mrs Eider). I would emphasise and repeat what my colleagues have already said but add, if possible, join a mountaineering club. You will receive help and company from people with more experience. If you are resident in Scotland membership of an MCofS affiliated club gets you access to heavily subsidised winter training weekends.

In reply to Robert777:

Thanks everyone for taking the time to put together some advice. It's much appreciated!

After reading the initial couple of comments we were going to give it a go on lower, safer slopes and progress from there. However after seeing more and more people come in saying get some tuition I am for it and my walking partner firmly against it because of the cost.

We will give it a think over the next couple of weeks.

Thanks again!

In reply to Robert777:

Just go for it yourselves, the majority didn't have instructors and half the recommendations are from instructors, who aren't exactly going to suggest you not use them. The worst trouble you'll get into is going out in poor weather or bad avalanche conditions, so don't, wait for the weather.

In reply to Robert777:

Buy a book. Read it. Be careful not to bite off more than you can chew the first few times. Spend the money you save on decent clothing.

In reply to GrahamUney:


I'd suggest this is back to front!

In reply to MG:

Nope, that's the right way around. Kicking steps with your boot, and cutting steps with an axe.

In reply to GrahamUney:

It was a joke. But step cutting is obsolete

In reply to MG:

Is it? Blimey!

In reply to MG:


Thinking you won't need crampons ain't a joke. Cutting steps ain't obsolete...joking aside.

In reply to Joak:


Crampons essential, of course. The OP will need them, and to practice.

Step cutting - utterly obsolete for decades!

In reply to Robert777:

Apart from the obvious advice of navigation and use of equipment. One piece of kit I reckon is very useful in winter is ski goggles. When conditions get a bit blowy it can be a real struggle to see. A set of goggles makes such a difference.

In reply to MG:



To save time faffing about putting on and taking of crampons to cross unavoidable patches of angled hard neve snow ice, I sometimes cut steps for security. Step cutting did indeed become obsolete decades ago, cutting steps didn't become totally redundant.