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OK, taking a deep breath here because this seems to be a somewhat emotive topic. Here goes:
I have played around with the height of my saddle, based on various advices on t'internet and elsewhere, and I am happy with it as it currently stands (sits?) My hips don't wiggle when I pedal, my knees don't hurt and all seems well with the world.
What's still confusing me is that it appears to be regarded as normal for riders to have to slide off the saddle when coming to a stop. I don't need to do this: I find that I can support myself very comfortably when stationery with one foot unclipped and bum still firmly on the saddle.
There are a fair few web pages providing guidance about the correct way to do such temporary dismounts and remounts, and they all seem to assume that it's an obligatory skill to master if you're going to have your saddle anywhere near the correct height.
Am I doing something wrong?
Is everyone pointing at me and laughing behind my back, while I inwardly wince at the sight of other riders tottering off and back on to their saddles at every stop light?
Fundamentally, there seems to be an information mismatch, and that's what's confusing me. Is the answer really that my saddle height must be wrong, despite it feeling just fine, and if I get a proper bike fitting I will suddenly achieve enlightenment???
Post edited at 12:40
In reply to Martin W:
I can just touch the tarmac on tippy toes, mostly stop next to the kerb instead. Saddle any lower injures my knees, would go even higher but don't like getting off the saddle all the time
It's to do with the ratio of length of your legs to length of the crank arm I reckon? Could get a shorter crank arm (apparently) - but then less leverage so a different compromise
I can just touch the tarmac on tippy toes, mostly stop next to the kerb instead. Saddle any lower injures my knees, would go even higher but don't like getting off the saddle all the time
It's to do with the ratio of length of your legs to length of the crank arm I reckon? Could get a shorter crank arm (apparently) - but then less leverage so a different compromise
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In reply to Martin W:
Are we talking road bike, mountain bike or CX bike ?
They all have different height bottom brackets, hence the saddle will be higher on some than others, its whatever works for you, there is no rules on this one i don't think.
Are we talking road bike, mountain bike or CX bike ?
They all have different height bottom brackets, hence the saddle will be higher on some than others, its whatever works for you, there is no rules on this one i don't think.
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In reply to Martin W:
Dont know but I can happily put a foot down whilst still sat on the saddle like you.
Dont know but I can happily put a foot down whilst still sat on the saddle like you.
In reply to Martin W:
I can get the ball of one foot down without getting out of the saddle on both my road and cross bikes if the ground is flat, although I sometimes have to get out if I am on a camber. Perfectly happy with my seat height, and other ways of measuring such as having a straight leg when the arch of your foot is on the pedal at the lowest point are correct for me.
Both my bikes are women-specific though so the different geometry may be a factor here.
I can get the ball of one foot down without getting out of the saddle on both my road and cross bikes if the ground is flat, although I sometimes have to get out if I am on a camber. Perfectly happy with my seat height, and other ways of measuring such as having a straight leg when the arch of your foot is on the pedal at the lowest point are correct for me.
Both my bikes are women-specific though so the different geometry may be a factor here.
In reply to kathrync:
I've always used the heel for that test. And not quite straight leg...
> other ways of measuring such as having a straight leg when the arch of your foot is on the pedal at the lowest point
I've always used the heel for that test. And not quite straight leg...
1
In reply to captain paranoia:
I have seen both heel and arch advised and found that there isn't that much difference between the two for me at least (my feet are really tiny!). And my leg is straight, but not locked out. Whatever, I find it comfortable and my hips don't wiggle as I pedal - I reckon there is definitely some personal preference in the mix too!
I have seen both heel and arch advised and found that there isn't that much difference between the two for me at least (my feet are really tiny!). And my leg is straight, but not locked out. Whatever, I find it comfortable and my hips don't wiggle as I pedal - I reckon there is definitely some personal preference in the mix too!
In reply to Martin W:
Yes, it is normal to have to dismount if your saddle is at the correct height and your frame the right size.
I can just about reach the ground with the tip of one toe by canting my pelvis. Neither foot will touch the ground if I allow them to swing free while seated.
If you sit on your bike leaning against a wall, your heel should just be contacting the pedal at the bottom of its stroke when the leg is hanging relaxed, in what's called the "naturally cocked" position. Too high will cause pain behind the knee and too low will cause pain around the kneecap. Even an inch of adjustment will make a difference to your efficiency.
Yes, it is normal to have to dismount if your saddle is at the correct height and your frame the right size.
I can just about reach the ground with the tip of one toe by canting my pelvis. Neither foot will touch the ground if I allow them to swing free while seated.
If you sit on your bike leaning against a wall, your heel should just be contacting the pedal at the bottom of its stroke when the leg is hanging relaxed, in what's called the "naturally cocked" position. Too high will cause pain behind the knee and too low will cause pain around the kneecap. Even an inch of adjustment will make a difference to your efficiency.
In reply to Martin W:
Touch tip toes (just) when sat on the saddle. Tend to "decleat" and lean slightly when stopping to get more foot on the floor.
Best to just make sure it works well for you both cycling and stopping.
Touch tip toes (just) when sat on the saddle. Tend to "decleat" and lean slightly when stopping to get more foot on the floor.
Best to just make sure it works well for you both cycling and stopping.
In reply to Martin W:
I never come to a stop in a seated position, I always come to a stop stood on the pedals and dismount from a trackstand.
I never come to a stop in a seated position, I always come to a stop stood on the pedals and dismount from a trackstand.
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In reply to Jon Greengrass:
Yeh exactly, I always approach a junction out of the saddle, on any kind of bike. means I am ready to react to any situation, don't assume that other people and vehicles will do what they are supposed to do just because you are doing what you are supposed to do!
incidently I always ease of the speed when approaching lights etc, even when green. sure it is inefficient to keep slowing down and speeding up, but when riding through town im not in a race! never trust other road users, or pedestrians, especially pedestrians!
> I never come to a stop in a seated position, I always come to a stop stood on the pedals and dismount from a trackstand.
Yeh exactly, I always approach a junction out of the saddle, on any kind of bike. means I am ready to react to any situation, don't assume that other people and vehicles will do what they are supposed to do just because you are doing what you are supposed to do!
incidently I always ease of the speed when approaching lights etc, even when green. sure it is inefficient to keep slowing down and speeding up, but when riding through town im not in a race! never trust other road users, or pedestrians, especially pedestrians!
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In reply to Martin W:
I'm not sure I know anyone who was to get off a road bike saddle in order to at least get their toes down. I'll have to look more closely next time I'm in a group.
I'm not sure I know anyone who was to get off a road bike saddle in order to at least get their toes down. I'll have to look more closely next time I'm in a group.
In reply to Martin W:
I can't comfortably touch the ground on my hard tail mtb when sat in the saddle though I never even think about what I'm doing when getting off the saddle, I certainly don't find it awkward.
I can't comfortably touch the ground on my hard tail mtb when sat in the saddle though I never even think about what I'm doing when getting off the saddle, I certainly don't find it awkward.
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In reply to Jon Greengrass:
This.
Quite seriously, unless you are on some extra low bottom bracket bike (which I have never come across) there is no way your saddle height is correct, even if at the lower end of the range of different methods of setting it.
Disclaimer - I have no clue about downhill mtbikes but I don't think you are talking about one of them.
> Do you have freaky long clown feet?
This.
Quite seriously, unless you are on some extra low bottom bracket bike (which I have never come across) there is no way your saddle height is correct, even if at the lower end of the range of different methods of setting it.
Disclaimer - I have no clue about downhill mtbikes but I don't think you are talking about one of them.
In reply to Martin W:
I go from not touching the floor at all to just about scraping my tip toes while sat on the saddle, depending on which bike I'm on at the time.
I tend to stop either off the saddle or with bike leant slightly over and foot on the curb.
The only exception to that is if I have the WeeRide seat on to put daughter in, when I have to put the saddle down, as there's no way of getting off the front of the saddle.
I go from not touching the floor at all to just about scraping my tip toes while sat on the saddle, depending on which bike I'm on at the time.
I tend to stop either off the saddle or with bike leant slightly over and foot on the curb.
The only exception to that is if I have the WeeRide seat on to put daughter in, when I have to put the saddle down, as there's no way of getting off the front of the saddle.
In reply to LastBoyScout:
It sounds most unlikely that your saddle is at the right height, unless you have very long cranks and short legs. I can just touch the ground on one side, but the bike is pretty finely balanced and a strong gust of wind from the wrong side would have me over - that's with 175 cranks. With shorter cranks I don't think I could touch the ground. Both feet unclipped - my feet just dangle in space.
It sounds most unlikely that your saddle is at the right height, unless you have very long cranks and short legs. I can just touch the ground on one side, but the bike is pretty finely balanced and a strong gust of wind from the wrong side would have me over - that's with 175 cranks. With shorter cranks I don't think I could touch the ground. Both feet unclipped - my feet just dangle in space.
In reply to Martin W:
I'm 6' 3" with size 10 feet and I've adjusted my saddle height using the 'barefoot heel method'. I can stay in the saddle and get a couple of toes on the ground on one side if I lean over slightly. Sometimes I unclip one side and lean the other, just to entertain car drivers while they're stuck in traffic queues.
I'm 6' 3" with size 10 feet and I've adjusted my saddle height using the 'barefoot heel method'. I can stay in the saddle and get a couple of toes on the ground on one side if I lean over slightly. Sometimes I unclip one side and lean the other, just to entertain car drivers while they're stuck in traffic queues.
5
In reply to AndyC:
I've only done that once, but they definitely appreciate the entertainment
Edit: PS if you can touch the floor with a flat foot and not leaning over then your saddle is too low by approximately the distance from the top of your pedal at it's lowest point and the floor, less a smidge.
I've only done that once, but they definitely appreciate the entertainment
Edit: PS if you can touch the floor with a flat foot and not leaning over then your saddle is too low by approximately the distance from the top of your pedal at it's lowest point and the floor, less a smidge.
Post edited at 18:56
In reply to Martin W:
I’ve just tried on my road bike and can just about touch the floor while seated. Why you’d think it was important to be able to I’m really not sure. It’s uncomfortable, unnecessary, unstable and it makes you look a right tw*t.
I’ve just tried on my road bike and can just about touch the floor while seated. Why you’d think it was important to be able to I’m really not sure. It’s uncomfortable, unnecessary, unstable and it makes you look a right tw*t.
In reply to trouserburp:
This (I've read in a few books [City Cycling and Cyclecraft], and articles, and experienced myself) is convenient, but can develop into a habit of always ending up in a pretty vulnerable position on the road, such as in the gutter at lights, between a bus/lorry/car and a fence, when the driver's forgotten you're there and is about to turn left across you.
I've also read in some sad reports and analysis about cyclists getting flattened this historically more commonly happens to women because they can be less assertive in taking a 'better' position in the road, which I understand to be in the traffic, in front of or right behind vehicles in a queue, rather than tucked in the gutter trying to stay out of traffic. In the latter case drivers of cars or bigger things can think that you being way over beside the kerb is an invitation or opportunity to pass, when it's not.
Now that I've got that off my chest... I've got two bikes at the moment, one single-speed which I use for commuting, and a road bike, with almost identical frame sizes. I have spent endless hours twiddling the saddle heights. The saddle height is 'just right' for me now on both, in terms of it being comfy for the riding I do on both.
When I got the more recent of the two bikes I set the saddle at the same height as the existing bike, but with twiddling over the months since, it's now almost an inch lower. I can stand on tippy-toes in the saddle, which I definitely can't on the other bike. Height 'feels' the same (and fine) on both bikes, but it's measurably quite different. Not something I lose any sleep over now that I've got them both 'comfy'.
Edit: Though having fully read the rest of the thread, I sense a week of sleepless self-doubt ahead...
> I can just touch the tarmac on tippy toes, mostly stop next to the kerb instead.
This (I've read in a few books [City Cycling and Cyclecraft], and articles, and experienced myself) is convenient, but can develop into a habit of always ending up in a pretty vulnerable position on the road, such as in the gutter at lights, between a bus/lorry/car and a fence, when the driver's forgotten you're there and is about to turn left across you.
I've also read in some sad reports and analysis about cyclists getting flattened this historically more commonly happens to women because they can be less assertive in taking a 'better' position in the road, which I understand to be in the traffic, in front of or right behind vehicles in a queue, rather than tucked in the gutter trying to stay out of traffic. In the latter case drivers of cars or bigger things can think that you being way over beside the kerb is an invitation or opportunity to pass, when it's not.
Now that I've got that off my chest... I've got two bikes at the moment, one single-speed which I use for commuting, and a road bike, with almost identical frame sizes. I have spent endless hours twiddling the saddle heights. The saddle height is 'just right' for me now on both, in terms of it being comfy for the riding I do on both.
When I got the more recent of the two bikes I set the saddle at the same height as the existing bike, but with twiddling over the months since, it's now almost an inch lower. I can stand on tippy-toes in the saddle, which I definitely can't on the other bike. Height 'feels' the same (and fine) on both bikes, but it's measurably quite different. Not something I lose any sleep over now that I've got them both 'comfy'.
Edit: Though having fully read the rest of the thread, I sense a week of sleepless self-doubt ahead...
Post edited at 20:53
In reply to Martin W:
Feet on the ground when sat on saddle is or was a thing for young kids learning way back in time. You should be setting the saddle for pedalling efficiency not for getting feet on the ground. If you are happy stick eith it, but pedalling will be easier with your saddle higher up.
Feet on the ground when sat on saddle is or was a thing for young kids learning way back in time. You should be setting the saddle for pedalling efficiency not for getting feet on the ground. If you are happy stick eith it, but pedalling will be easier with your saddle higher up.
In part it depends on the bike. Park your road bike next to your MTB and look at difference in bottom bracket heights.
In reply to Lion Bakes:
Not if they are at the right height already. It also depends how far back the saddle is as to what the the most powerful height is.
> If you are happy stick eith it, but pedalling will be easier with your saddle higher up.
Not if they are at the right height already. It also depends how far back the saddle is as to what the the most powerful height is.
In reply to GrahamD:
Highly unlikely given typical bottom bracket heights, and crank arm lengths.
> Not if they are at the right height already. It also depends how far back the saddle is as to what the the most powerful height is.
Highly unlikely given typical bottom bracket heights, and crank arm lengths.
In reply to Lion Bakes:
Having checked my road bike after being professionally fitted (fitter has also worked with Emma Pooley so not exactly unknowledgeable) I can touch the ground on tip toes whilst seated. So I'm convinced this is dependent on particular physiology and sweeping generalisations are unhelpful.
Having checked my road bike after being professionally fitted (fitter has also worked with Emma Pooley so not exactly unknowledgeable) I can touch the ground on tip toes whilst seated. So I'm convinced this is dependent on particular physiology and sweeping generalisations are unhelpful.
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In reply to GrahamD:
To what aim were you fitted as the criteria for Emma and your typical cyclist are not the same. I am sure you are aware that bicycle fit is a compromise between competing demands.
To what aim were you fitted as the criteria for Emma and your typical cyclist are not the same. I am sure you are aware that bicycle fit is a compromise between competing demands.
In reply to Lion Bakes:
Indeed. So some fits will be different to others so saying "if you can reach the ground its wrong" is clearly bollox.
Indeed. So some fits will be different to others so saying "if you can reach the ground its wrong" is clearly bollox.
1
In reply to Martin W:
Can't reach the ground when stopping? Training wheels are the obvious solution!
Seriously, I have short legs and a long upper body, so need rather large frames (also, large frames were in fashion in the mid 80s, which is when my classic Italian steel racer was built). So on that bike at least I have the same problem, and either use the kerb, stand on tiptoe on one leg, or hop on and off rather inelegantly.
CB
Can't reach the ground when stopping? Training wheels are the obvious solution!
Seriously, I have short legs and a long upper body, so need rather large frames (also, large frames were in fashion in the mid 80s, which is when my classic Italian steel racer was built). So on that bike at least I have the same problem, and either use the kerb, stand on tiptoe on one leg, or hop on and off rather inelegantly.
CB
1
In reply to nniff:
I have the saddle 1.5cm higher than I should, according to the last bike fit I had - although before that bike fit, it was 3cm higher! I find that if I have it any lower, I don't like the feeling in the backs of my knees. That's on 172.5 cranks on the road bike.
On my mountain bike I am a good inch clear of the floor with 175 cranks.
> It sounds most unlikely that your saddle is at the right height, unless you have very long cranks and short legs.
I have the saddle 1.5cm higher than I should, according to the last bike fit I had - although before that bike fit, it was 3cm higher! I find that if I have it any lower, I don't like the feeling in the backs of my knees. That's on 172.5 cranks on the road bike.
On my mountain bike I am a good inch clear of the floor with 175 cranks.
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
I wasn't talking about Emma Pooley's bike though - just establishing the credentials of the guy that fitted my bike. Haven't a clue whether Emma can touch the ground off the saddle.
I wasn't talking about Emma Pooley's bike though - just establishing the credentials of the guy that fitted my bike. Haven't a clue whether Emma can touch the ground off the saddle.
In reply to thread:
Can you even trackstand bro?*
Dropper posts init?
*Oh. I see someone's already done that one. Very hard not to give a dislike to the trackstanding classess...
> I find that I can support myself very comfortably when stationery with one foot unclipped and bum still firmly on the saddle.
Can you even trackstand bro?*
Dropper posts init?
*Oh. I see someone's already done that one. Very hard not to give a dislike to the trackstanding classess...
In reply to johnjohn:
I have much admiration for those who can reliably do a good, stable trackstand on a road bike or MTB on a normal road. It's actually a pleasure to see.
A somewhat less pleasing impression is created by people who wobble around in the ASZ attempting to achieve something that might, to an indulgent observer, be described as approximating to a trackstand. It's not much fun finding yourself with one of these characters alongside, with the feeling that they might topple over at any moment, and likely take you with them. It's ironic if the lights change when they are in mid wobble and they end up taking longer to start making forward progress than everyone else. Sadly, from my observation these latter do seem to be in the overwhelming majority.
Back on the main topic: having let the thread run for a fair while to see what views emerged, I have to say that I find myself generally in agreement with GrahamD, and much less so with those who take a more inflexible stance on the matter.
I have much admiration for those who can reliably do a good, stable trackstand on a road bike or MTB on a normal road. It's actually a pleasure to see.
A somewhat less pleasing impression is created by people who wobble around in the ASZ attempting to achieve something that might, to an indulgent observer, be described as approximating to a trackstand. It's not much fun finding yourself with one of these characters alongside, with the feeling that they might topple over at any moment, and likely take you with them. It's ironic if the lights change when they are in mid wobble and they end up taking longer to start making forward progress than everyone else. Sadly, from my observation these latter do seem to be in the overwhelming majority.
Back on the main topic: having let the thread run for a fair while to see what views emerged, I have to say that I find myself generally in agreement with GrahamD, and much less so with those who take a more inflexible stance on the matter.
Post edited at 12:03
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In reply to Martin W:
I'm not convinced it's any quicker to get going from a trackstand. Pushing off with the unclipped foot gives more acceleration than from both feet on the pedals (though I suppose if you people can do it well on geared bikes it's not the same as heaving away in the Olympic finals of the Pursuit. And I can't sustain a stand for more than a few seconds anyway).
The more important question, I feel, is which foot is the correct one to unclip? There doesn't seem to be a Rule about it, but surely everyone using the wrong foot is blaspheming the cycling gods of grace and style
> I have much admiration for those who can reliably do a good, stable trackstand on a road bike or MTB on a normal road. It's actually a pleasure to see
I'm not convinced it's any quicker to get going from a trackstand. Pushing off with the unclipped foot gives more acceleration than from both feet on the pedals (though I suppose if you people can do it well on geared bikes it's not the same as heaving away in the Olympic finals of the Pursuit. And I can't sustain a stand for more than a few seconds anyway).
The more important question, I feel, is which foot is the correct one to unclip? There doesn't seem to be a Rule about it, but surely everyone using the wrong foot is blaspheming the cycling gods of grace and style
In reply to nufkin:
It’s a personal thing. I unclip with the left.
I’m absolutely shit at clipping-in though.
It’s a personal thing. I unclip with the left.
I’m absolutely shit at clipping-in though.
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
That is the correct side. You can ride with an untroubled mind.
Once you're properly attached, obviously
> I unclip with the left
That is the correct side. You can ride with an untroubled mind.
Once you're properly attached, obviously
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In reply to Martin W:
you can lead a horse to water... !
> Back on the main topic: having let the thread run for a fair while to see what views emerged, I have to say that I find myself generally in agreement with GrahamD, and much less so with those who take a more inflexible stance on the matter.
you can lead a horse to water... !
In reply to Martin W:
I'd be cautious in having a seat too high just so you can slide off like those 'properly' fitted. Do what suits you. I've spent months this year recovering from mild hamstring tendonitis from supposedly having the seat too high after a bike fit. Apart from not running for a few months, physio and loads of Pilates like torture.. I've had to drop the seat 2cm and now creep it back up 1cm over 10 weeks (i.e. 1mm/week).
I'd be cautious in having a seat too high just so you can slide off like those 'properly' fitted. Do what suits you. I've spent months this year recovering from mild hamstring tendonitis from supposedly having the seat too high after a bike fit. Apart from not running for a few months, physio and loads of Pilates like torture.. I've had to drop the seat 2cm and now creep it back up 1cm over 10 weeks (i.e. 1mm/week).
In reply to Martin W:
I know exactly what you mean, but my trackstand is getting better. I limit my efforts to uncrowded areas. My frustration is that I have to put a foot down usually about a second before the lights change. If you had to go through as many lights as I do every day, you would undertsand my perseverance at learning a skill that is fundamentally alien to someone with my shocking sense of balance. It's not so much the quick getaway (I'm faster with double sided pedals and a full stroke to move off anyway) but it does save the toes of yet another pair of toe thingies/overshoes (all liberally slobbered with seamgrip).
PS I have tried to count the number of lights on my commute but lose the will to live - time transfer the pace counting toggles from my rucksack to my bike perhaps.
> I have much admiration for those who can reliably do a good, stable trackstand on a road bike or MTB on a normal road. It's actually a pleasure to see.
> A somewhat less pleasing impression is created by people who wobble around in the ASZ attempting to achieve something that might, to an indulgent observer, be described as approximating to a trackstand.
I know exactly what you mean, but my trackstand is getting better. I limit my efforts to uncrowded areas. My frustration is that I have to put a foot down usually about a second before the lights change. If you had to go through as many lights as I do every day, you would undertsand my perseverance at learning a skill that is fundamentally alien to someone with my shocking sense of balance. It's not so much the quick getaway (I'm faster with double sided pedals and a full stroke to move off anyway) but it does save the toes of yet another pair of toe thingies/overshoes (all liberally slobbered with seamgrip).
PS I have tried to count the number of lights on my commute but lose the will to live - time transfer the pace counting toggles from my rucksack to my bike perhaps.
In reply to Martin W:
I can touch the floor with the ball of my foot when stopped and leaning over to one side a little. Having to unclip and slide off the saddle just sounds like a recipe for one of those 'oops I'm going to hit the ground' moments.
I can touch the floor with the ball of my foot when stopped and leaning over to one side a little. Having to unclip and slide off the saddle just sounds like a recipe for one of those 'oops I'm going to hit the ground' moments.
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