UKH

All the talk these days seems to be about "soft shell " clothing.

Is that a generic term? if so have i been wearing it for years???? ie: buffalo/montane, marmot dri climb, Paramo Aspria trousers(the best bit of kit i've ever bought by the way!!)

Or are people refering to clothing made from a specific material???

Can anyone explain in simple terms....!

Cheers....Steve

In reply to Steve Humm:

They were a band in the early 80s not very good. Wasn't Mark Almond the lead singer.

In reply to Steve Humm: Soft shell = industry term to try and get you to buy stuff thats been around for ages, just never had an exciting name.

In reply to Steve Humm:

Soft Shell ish an eightiesh band

In reply to Steve Humm:

Been discussed a lot here. Basically, a marketing term to refer to an outer layer that provides wind and water resistance to cope with most conditions other than prolonged heavy rain. Usually has some form of light insulation.

Many materials and combinations of materials may be termed soft shell. It might be easier to say that it isn't a conventional, taped, fully waterproof shell

http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/search.php?forum=0&dates=0&name=&a...

A rather limited review of materials here (covering only the three main flavours of membrane fleece, and none of the pertex/microfleece combinations):

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/news/article.asp?sp=&v=1&uan=2237

followed by discussion:

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/forummessages.asp?UTN=2774&URN=6&...

the proof that softshell is a marketing term is the fact that paramo is not recognised as one, even though it is. the reason being, presumably, that if paramo was one, then soft shells aren't new...

In reply to Lightweight: paramo, buffalo etc are softshells in some respects. they are though different to most of the things being markets now under the 'soft shell' banner.

the 'new' soft shells are generally lighter and more comfortable than the old pile and pertex classics. i've been in paramo for years as well as buffalo but i'm now sold and enjoying a scholler jacket for everyday use in the hills and only in full hooley will i think about a gore shell ow'ert top. still gonna keep the buffalo mind, for that instant cosy feeling you get!

In reply to hindu:

Well put.

Buffalo, and Paramo, are in a different vein to most "soft-shells" of the present day. I think it's safe to say that the materials are definately soft-shell (high wind resistance, reasonable->high water-resistance, some insulation, extremely breathable), however garments classed as "soft shell" tend to be cut more athletically, and designed for fast, high-energy activities.

Many Paramo jackets are better at walking around Dartmoor, than the Alps. Fine lines, becoming confusingly smaller, and curvy!

In reply to Steve Humm:

Soft shell or soft sell.... zat is ze question!

In reply to Steve Humm:

Its a marketing opportunity - apparently designers had run out of possible designs in gore-tex fabrics. Read this: http://www.mec.ca/media/Images/pdf/rennies_softshell.pdf

In reply to withey: it's the same arguement as we've had with other bits of clothing for ever, and comes down to getting something which suits what you'll be doing with it.

as someone pointed out in a mag sometime (i think Twight in a US mag), why dress for 5% of the time when you'll need a fully waterproof membrace? most of the time it's drizzle and some wind, not full blow hooley. a gore shell most of the time only makes you hotter and sweatier.

in these situations, softshells are a great idea. nail a full spec jacket on the top and you're covered for anything! if you throw in a synthetic duvet jakcet in too, they you're away.

i'll never understand the people i saw today on blencathra: fantastic clear day, almost zero chance of rain (as low as you'll get in the lakes) and hardly any wind but still wearing their berghaus mera peaks, all the time complaining about how hot they were. just wear a fleece!!! jeeze...some people.

In reply to hindu:


True. It's horses for courses. If a soft-shell is going to be sufficient, for the drizzle, wind, and generally unpleasant weather of the UK, then buy it. However if youonly ever go out when it's lashing it down, then stick to Gore Tex etc



Maybe they wanted the jackets to keep them warm, but didn't realise how warm they would be!

In reply to Steve Humm: didn't they do tainted love?

In reply to Wilbur:

I think you'll find "Tainted Shove" is my "tongue in cheek" continuation of this particularr joke...

Andy

In reply to hindu:


Agreed. OTOH, there are days when you're lucky if 5% of the time you _don't_ need a waterproof membrane...

I don't think 'soft shell' is a miracle technology, or anything particularly new; it's just a name to describe a certain type of clothing, that is suitable to certain applications and environments. The only thing particularly novel about it is the improved water resistance of _some_ new materials, which allows them to take the place of a true waterproof shell in moderate conditions.

The likes of Dave Hunter would (I think) suggest that the soft shell layer is never removed, and extra insulation, if needed, is added on top. Since my temperature is very dynamic, and dependent on activity, I can be sweating furiously in nothing more than a base layer, even in the depths of winter, if slogging up a hill, and there's no layer that's going to stay on all the time (except the base layer, to protect sensitive souls). Since that means I accept the idea of layering and de-layering to suit needs, I may as well just rely on the flexibility afforded by a base layer, a fleece, a water-resistant windproof, and a waterproof, i.e. the 'traditional' layering system.

This is, of course, not to say that I don't own a PowerShield jacket, two microfibre/microfleece jackets, a reversible pertex/100m fleece jacket, a windproof laminate fleece jacket, a Schoeller jacket etc...

In reply to captain paranoia:

Agreed. I "boil" very easily going uphill with a pack, and even in winter I'm likely to be wearing just a (sometimes short sleeved!) base layer, once I've warmed up. I just can't get on with Paramo, or any of these more modern soft-shells with the bits of built in insulation...they're just too warm for me.

So for me as well it's base layer and add a fleece and/or a goretex shell when I stop/ when it chucks it down, etc.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

A type of crab, boiled and eaten with asparagus

In reply to Anonymous: lol

im looking to buy 'soft shell' stuff at the moment and also had no idea what the term meant. regardless of it being a trendy new word to sell more to gear freaks soft shells are important to keep snug and warm which i found out recently while freezing at higgar wearing a jeans and a hoody -

whats the best soft shell? most people have said helly hanson do the warmest tops.

In reply to Adders:

Turn to the Dark Side, my daughter. Feel the Kit.

heh heh heh... you're on a bit of a kit mission at the moment, aren't you

I don't know that Helly have that good a rep in soft shells - not saying they don't, only I've never seen their name associated with them. Which makes me suspect that you're actually talking about base layers here... forgive me if I'm wrong. If not, then be aware that their base layers are known as 'Smelly Hellys' for good reason. My first base layers was a HH Lifa top, and, after three days poncing around on Salisbury Plain, chasing Gurkhas, I absolutely stank. Utterly minging...


How long is a piece of string? what do you want it for? Cold weather bouldering? Walking? Ice climbing? Depending on the application, your physiology, etc, each of the different flavours of soft shell will be suitable to different degrees.

Sorry, you don't get away from a kitmonster that easily...

So what is a soft shell exactly? IMHO the term should only apply to a shell garment which can be worn as an outer layer as an alternative to a "hardshell" such as a Goretex or Triplepoint jacket.

So that narrows it down considerably. Fleece is not softshell. Ditto nylon windshirts. Ditto down jackets. All of them are "soft" but not "shells".

The best softshells are stretchy (hence can be close-fitting), windproof but breathable, highly water resistant, and uninsulated or only lightly insulated.

Basically, Schoeller or Powershield. Some other fabrics out there like Gore Windstopper make claims of being softshell but are basically crap, either due to being not stretchy, or overly insulated/not breathable enough.

Buffalo jacket is right on the boundary, it is an option to a hardshell, but is overly insulative...

In reply to captain paranoia:

So was the old Chinese Fighting Suit a soft shell then???

In reply to AndyF:

That's a great document, describing the technical and marketing rationale behind the soft shell development.

I personally still doubt the statement that "This new paradigm challenges the concept of layering". In fact, any phrase that includes the words "new paradigm" is pretty suspect in my view...