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So I got some money to purchase gear for by family and the wife. For context: I'm a pretty new climber who's mainly done lots of easier mountaineering earlier (hard scrambles and stuff that doesn't really require any rope as long as you are careful etc). I've got a lot of camping gear and clothing. But now I've been climbing a lot indoors and looking to move outside for more alpine technical climbing next year.
I have an ice climbing course coming up, after that I'll be toproping ice for a while. Starting to sport climb some time this winter, and then a trad course this summer.
What that in mind I've been thinking about buying this:
Budget between 450 and 600 GBP
Rope: Mammut Finesse Dry 9.3. Pretty fat triple certified rope, so I can buy a cheaper half rope later to complete the set for alpine climbing instead of buying only one single and then two new half ropes. Or should I buy a cheap single first? A 300 GBP expense for two ropes later could be hard to manage.
Crampons: Grivel G14 seems like a good allrounder and it's modular so I think it last longer since I can change the parts as they wear. Does that make sense? So far I have experience with the G10s (I think, borrowed them)
Quickdraws: Camp Nano 6 pack set x 2 and one longer quickdraw for rethreading and cleaning. Do I need more? Different sizes?
Ice axes: Not sure if I can afford both but I can borrow these from my club. I'm thinking about 2 Petzl Quarks at the moment. Will be used for waterfall WI4-5 for toproping at first, then general technical alpine climbs.
Would appreciate feedback if you have any.
I have an ice climbing course coming up, after that I'll be toproping ice for a while. Starting to sport climb some time this winter, and then a trad course this summer.
What that in mind I've been thinking about buying this:
Budget between 450 and 600 GBP
Rope: Mammut Finesse Dry 9.3. Pretty fat triple certified rope, so I can buy a cheaper half rope later to complete the set for alpine climbing instead of buying only one single and then two new half ropes. Or should I buy a cheap single first? A 300 GBP expense for two ropes later could be hard to manage.
Crampons: Grivel G14 seems like a good allrounder and it's modular so I think it last longer since I can change the parts as they wear. Does that make sense? So far I have experience with the G10s (I think, borrowed them)
Quickdraws: Camp Nano 6 pack set x 2 and one longer quickdraw for rethreading and cleaning. Do I need more? Different sizes?
Ice axes: Not sure if I can afford both but I can borrow these from my club. I'm thinking about 2 Petzl Quarks at the moment. Will be used for waterfall WI4-5 for toproping at first, then general technical alpine climbs.
Would appreciate feedback if you have any.
In reply to TheFasting:
Crampons buy second hand on here theres always a good bargin to be had.
Runners any will do, id go for length in the extender if you intend to start trad climbing.
Quarks are fine for lower grade ice and winter mountaineering.
Crampons buy second hand on here theres always a good bargin to be had.
Runners any will do, id go for length in the extender if you intend to start trad climbing.
Quarks are fine for lower grade ice and winter mountaineering.
2
In reply to TheFasting:
Are you willing to purchase some gear second hand? e.g. crampons or axes? You can save quite a bit. Are you buying in Norway?
A good choice, also consider the Serenity Dry 8.7mm if you want to consider weight. A very nice all round rope. 60m will certainly do for most things, as its dry you can use it for ice on single pitch/ non-convoluted routes without any worry. For easy alpine routes it shouldn't be much of an issue. So long as there are no long rappels. You may well end up with partners that have a set of half ropes anyway.
G14's are probably the most popular all round mountaineering crampon. What boots are you using them with? Are you getting step-in (cramp-o-matic) or strap (new-matic) versions? BD Cyborgs and Petzl Lynx can be worth looking at for price comparison.
A pair that can be converted to mono-point for ice and mixed is ideal, this will save you two front points for later. Second hand is well worth looking at. As you plan to do mountains/ alpine routes don't pay too much attention to dedicated monopoint crampons as these are not the best on hard snow and have pretty poor breaking downhill.
Is this a QD pack or just the carabiners? QD packs are a good way of getting lots of carabiners, but perhaps consider building your own? For Trad, ice and alpine lightweight and with a good/wide gate opening is the most ideal. Especially if gloves are used and you have a thick rope. You can also build QDs with cheap 30cm dyneema slings thus they are all extendable and highly versatile. Ideally you want about 10 quickdraws in total, ideally 12.
My next quickdraw set will be built from Mammut Wall Light (23g) carabiners for gear/ice screw end, Mammut Wall (27g) carabiners for rope end with 30/60cm Edelrid 8mm dyneema slings (8/18g). This is the lightest set up, with the widest gate opening and decent size of carabiner I have come across from weighmyrack.
Anything with good knuckle clearance will do. Quarks are a great all-rounder choice but are not the best for steep or featured ice. They will however serve you perfectly for long alpine routes and easier multi-pitch ice. I would say use any weekends you have on ice to try as many tools as you can. Rjukan is good for this at the ice festival. When you swing enough, you will get a really good idea of what you prefer/ want.
DMM Apex, BD Vipers are also worth considering for this type of axe. I personally use BD Fusions for everything and have Petzl Sum'tecs for anything less technical. Everyone I know who started out with technical alpine axes like Quarks, Flys, Vipers etc have sold them for Nomics or palmed them off to unwilling girlfriends.
> Budget between 450 and 600 GBP
Are you willing to purchase some gear second hand? e.g. crampons or axes? You can save quite a bit. Are you buying in Norway?
> Rope: Mammut Finesse Dry 9.3. Pretty fat triple certified rope, so I can buy a cheaper half rope later to complete the set for alpine climbing instead of buying only one single and then two new half ropes. Or should I buy a cheap single first? A 300 GBP expense for two ropes later could be hard to manage.
A good choice, also consider the Serenity Dry 8.7mm if you want to consider weight. A very nice all round rope. 60m will certainly do for most things, as its dry you can use it for ice on single pitch/ non-convoluted routes without any worry. For easy alpine routes it shouldn't be much of an issue. So long as there are no long rappels. You may well end up with partners that have a set of half ropes anyway.
> Crampons: Grivel G14 seems like a good allrounder and it's modular so I think it last longer since I can change the parts as they wear. Does that make sense?
G14's are probably the most popular all round mountaineering crampon. What boots are you using them with? Are you getting step-in (cramp-o-matic) or strap (new-matic) versions? BD Cyborgs and Petzl Lynx can be worth looking at for price comparison.
A pair that can be converted to mono-point for ice and mixed is ideal, this will save you two front points for later. Second hand is well worth looking at. As you plan to do mountains/ alpine routes don't pay too much attention to dedicated monopoint crampons as these are not the best on hard snow and have pretty poor breaking downhill.
> Quickdraws: Camp Nano 6 pack set x 2 and one longer quickdraw for rethreading and cleaning. Do I need more? Different sizes?
Is this a QD pack or just the carabiners? QD packs are a good way of getting lots of carabiners, but perhaps consider building your own? For Trad, ice and alpine lightweight and with a good/wide gate opening is the most ideal. Especially if gloves are used and you have a thick rope. You can also build QDs with cheap 30cm dyneema slings thus they are all extendable and highly versatile. Ideally you want about 10 quickdraws in total, ideally 12.
My next quickdraw set will be built from Mammut Wall Light (23g) carabiners for gear/ice screw end, Mammut Wall (27g) carabiners for rope end with 30/60cm Edelrid 8mm dyneema slings (8/18g). This is the lightest set up, with the widest gate opening and decent size of carabiner I have come across from weighmyrack.
> Ice axes: Not sure if I can afford both but I can borrow these from my club. I'm thinking about 2 Petzl Quarks at the moment. Will be used for waterfall WI4-5 for toproping at first, then general technical alpine climbs.
Anything with good knuckle clearance will do. Quarks are a great all-rounder choice but are not the best for steep or featured ice. They will however serve you perfectly for long alpine routes and easier multi-pitch ice. I would say use any weekends you have on ice to try as many tools as you can. Rjukan is good for this at the ice festival. When you swing enough, you will get a really good idea of what you prefer/ want.
DMM Apex, BD Vipers are also worth considering for this type of axe. I personally use BD Fusions for everything and have Petzl Sum'tecs for anything less technical. Everyone I know who started out with technical alpine axes like Quarks, Flys, Vipers etc have sold them for Nomics or palmed them off to unwilling girlfriends.
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In reply to payney1973:
With "the extender" with regards to the runners, what do you mean?
By lower grade ice climbing, what grade do you think they can be used for? I want to be able to grow into them, so preferably they could be useful for WI4 or 5. Or do I need to buy a specialised set for that?
With "the extender" with regards to the runners, what do you mean?
By lower grade ice climbing, what grade do you think they can be used for? I want to be able to grow into them, so preferably they could be useful for WI4 or 5. Or do I need to buy a specialised set for that?
In reply to TheFasting:
These: http://static.wixstatic.com/media/4737fa_fc3f2f83548f41f780e450a86147d6e3~m...
In 30 or 60cm lengths. It allows you to extend your gear to prevent rope drag on zig-zag routes or those with protection that doesn't follow the direct line of the climb. A necessity if you're only using a single rope. Useful with halfs. Perfect for ice and alpine routes.
Excellent up to WI4. The problem is with tech-alpine axes (Quark, viper etc) is that the clearance between the ice (hard) and your knuckles (also hard) isn't as great as with tech-climbing axes (Nomic, fuel etc). So on steep/ vertical ice routes (normally about WI4) you will end up punching the ice as you swing, especially if you bury the pick up to the head which is common for beginners. They will of course go to WI5 and beyond but requires good swing technique. They are also tiring to climb with as the grip is more vertical as opposed to reclined like on technical axes.
The lack of clearance also makes climbing featured ice awkward and painful and difficult to mount bulges. On low angle ice (WI2-3) or unfeatured icefalls they aren't a problem. Same for long steep alpine snow or ice gullies this is where they excel. Newer models may be better for steeper routes but combining hot aches with the potential for bruised knuckles isn't anyone's ideal day out.
> With "the extender" with regards to the runners, what do you mean?
These: http://static.wixstatic.com/media/4737fa_fc3f2f83548f41f780e450a86147d6e3~m...
In 30 or 60cm lengths. It allows you to extend your gear to prevent rope drag on zig-zag routes or those with protection that doesn't follow the direct line of the climb. A necessity if you're only using a single rope. Useful with halfs. Perfect for ice and alpine routes.
> By lower grade ice climbing, what grade do you think they can be used for? I want to be able to grow into them, so preferably they could be useful for WI4 or 5. Or do I need to buy a specialised set for that?
Excellent up to WI4. The problem is with tech-alpine axes (Quark, viper etc) is that the clearance between the ice (hard) and your knuckles (also hard) isn't as great as with tech-climbing axes (Nomic, fuel etc). So on steep/ vertical ice routes (normally about WI4) you will end up punching the ice as you swing, especially if you bury the pick up to the head which is common for beginners. They will of course go to WI5 and beyond but requires good swing technique. They are also tiring to climb with as the grip is more vertical as opposed to reclined like on technical axes.
The lack of clearance also makes climbing featured ice awkward and painful and difficult to mount bulges. On low angle ice (WI2-3) or unfeatured icefalls they aren't a problem. Same for long steep alpine snow or ice gullies this is where they excel. Newer models may be better for steeper routes but combining hot aches with the potential for bruised knuckles isn't anyone's ideal day out.
Post edited at 12:49
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In reply to GarethSL:
I've been thinking about the Nomics because everyone seems to use them, but at the same time they don't seem to self-arrest well which is a bit disconcerting I think. At least any technical alpine climbing I do short term (within 3 years or so) will be a mix of low grade ice or steep couloirs, maybe with short sections of mixed climbing. There are some multipitch ice climbs I want to do as well.
Maybe I'm over-exaggerating the problem of an ace that isn't ideal for self-arresting?
Btw thanks for all these answers they're very helpful. I think I just knew the "extenders" as an alpine draw.
I've been thinking about the Nomics because everyone seems to use them, but at the same time they don't seem to self-arrest well which is a bit disconcerting I think. At least any technical alpine climbing I do short term (within 3 years or so) will be a mix of low grade ice or steep couloirs, maybe with short sections of mixed climbing. There are some multipitch ice climbs I want to do as well.
Maybe I'm over-exaggerating the problem of an ace that isn't ideal for self-arresting?
Btw thanks for all these answers they're very helpful. I think I just knew the "extenders" as an alpine draw.
In reply to GarethSL
> Anything with good knuckle clearance will do. Quarks are a great all-rounder choice but are not the best for steep or featured ice.
What is your thinking to why Quarks aren't good on steep or featured ice, I'm just curious as I have them and found them totally fine?
Post edited at 14:38
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In reply to TheFasting:
Just to echo Steve's comments, Quarks are brilliant axes. For 95% of climbers, they will get you up any route you're likely to be brave enough to attempt. As a relative beginner you can't really go to wrong with a pair.
However, as regards crampons, I'm not a fan of G14s. They are a slightly older design and are heavier compared to competitors. Assuming that they fit your boots Petzl Lynx are probably the best all round option currently.
With ropes, you'll get different recommendations from just about everyone, but do make sure you look out for a rope that meets the stringent UIAA dry rope standard. Loads of ropes have 'dry' treatments but only a small minority meet the standard.
Just to echo Steve's comments, Quarks are brilliant axes. For 95% of climbers, they will get you up any route you're likely to be brave enough to attempt. As a relative beginner you can't really go to wrong with a pair.
However, as regards crampons, I'm not a fan of G14s. They are a slightly older design and are heavier compared to competitors. Assuming that they fit your boots Petzl Lynx are probably the best all round option currently.
With ropes, you'll get different recommendations from just about everyone, but do make sure you look out for a rope that meets the stringent UIAA dry rope standard. Loads of ropes have 'dry' treatments but only a small minority meet the standard.
Post edited at 16:22
2
In reply to Steve Perry:
For all of the reasons mentioned in my earlier posts. Mainly because the shaft curvature doesn't allow for much clearance in comparison to technical ice tools. I find that when hooking or climbing heavily featured ice that the second point of contact after the pick is my knuckles. This goes for most moderately curved axes that I have used... Eg quarks vipers cobras and flys. But I understand they are a popular tool which also why I recommended trying as many axes as possible. I never said they aren't good, only not *the* best for WI climbing, for steep ice aggressive tools are without doubt far better. But those are then limited for alpine and mountaineering, which quarks generally excel at.
For all of the reasons mentioned in my earlier posts. Mainly because the shaft curvature doesn't allow for much clearance in comparison to technical ice tools. I find that when hooking or climbing heavily featured ice that the second point of contact after the pick is my knuckles. This goes for most moderately curved axes that I have used... Eg quarks vipers cobras and flys. But I understand they are a popular tool which also why I recommended trying as many axes as possible. I never said they aren't good, only not *the* best for WI climbing, for steep ice aggressive tools are without doubt far better. But those are then limited for alpine and mountaineering, which quarks generally excel at.
In reply to TheFasting:
If you're using the thin single rope for sport you may find it more difficult to catch someone depending on your belay plate (say an old Gri-Gri 1 where the diameter is out of spec).
Personally I have gone down the route of having a 9.8mm single for sport and a pair of 8.3mm Mammut Meteor half ropes for trad and anything with an abseil descent. I haven't tried them on ice yet, however they've performed pretty well for the two year's I've had them and done probably 600 pitches worth of climbing and they still look to be in reasonably good nick. You can get a 50m pair from Needlesports for £150, only problem being that loads of other people have them!
If you're using the thin single rope for sport you may find it more difficult to catch someone depending on your belay plate (say an old Gri-Gri 1 where the diameter is out of spec).
Personally I have gone down the route of having a 9.8mm single for sport and a pair of 8.3mm Mammut Meteor half ropes for trad and anything with an abseil descent. I haven't tried them on ice yet, however they've performed pretty well for the two year's I've had them and done probably 600 pitches worth of climbing and they still look to be in reasonably good nick. You can get a 50m pair from Needlesports for £150, only problem being that loads of other people have them!
In reply to TheFasting:
I first climbed in Rjukan and Scotland with quarks and vipers and they were fine to WI5, I then bought reactors for steeper ice.
Just gone back to quarks as they are more versitile for all round use.
I first climbed in Rjukan and Scotland with quarks and vipers and they were fine to WI5, I then bought reactors for steeper ice.
Just gone back to quarks as they are more versitile for all round use.
1
In reply to TheFasting:
Length of the tape between the krabs, some packs have either a mixture of lengths or i have found really short sport climbing draws.
Basically for trad i try to use slightly longer draws to limit the movement of the rope affecting your gear placement, i also always carry extendable draws as Garethsl explained.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/quickdraws-a-guide-for-climbers
Length of the tape between the krabs, some packs have either a mixture of lengths or i have found really short sport climbing draws.
Basically for trad i try to use slightly longer draws to limit the movement of the rope affecting your gear placement, i also always carry extendable draws as Garethsl explained.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/quickdraws-a-guide-for-climbers
1
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
I'll try the Lynx then.
The rope I am looking at is the Mammut Finesse Dry, as far as I've read they can only use the word "dry" if they meet that standard? The reviews say it's good.
I'll try the Lynx then.
The rope I am looking at is the Mammut Finesse Dry, as far as I've read they can only use the word "dry" if they meet that standard? The reviews say it's good.
In reply to TheFasting:
Definitely get Mammut dry rather than Protect . I haven't used a finesse - I have a mammut eternity and it's a very good rope.
I also have a pair of Lynx. Nice crampons but a bit heavy. It would be worth having a look at them side by side with the Grivels. Where are you getting all this lot from?
Definitely get Mammut dry rather than Protect . I haven't used a finesse - I have a mammut eternity and it's a very good rope.
I also have a pair of Lynx. Nice crampons but a bit heavy. It would be worth having a look at them side by side with the Grivels. Where are you getting all this lot from?
In reply to wbo:
If youre buying new, Elite mountain supplies are good.
However if youre buying quarks go outdoors prices match plus give 10% discount on that
If youre buying new, Elite mountain supplies are good.
However if youre buying quarks go outdoors prices match plus give 10% discount on that
In reply to wbo:
The weights from the Needlesport website are G14 1238g (their measurement, not Grivel's quoted weight) and Lynx 1080g.
The Lynx aren't light but the G14 are even heavier. As you suggest, definitely worth the OP trying both with his boots, if at all possible.
I personally alternative between the lightweight Grivel G20s and AirTechs, but the G20s can ball-up badly and are a positive liability in soft snow so I'd hesitate to recommend them as a first (or only) crampon.
> I also have a pair of Lynx. Nice crampons but a bit heavy. It would be worth having a look at them side by side with the Grivels.
The weights from the Needlesport website are G14 1238g (their measurement, not Grivel's quoted weight) and Lynx 1080g.
The Lynx aren't light but the G14 are even heavier. As you suggest, definitely worth the OP trying both with his boots, if at all possible.
I personally alternative between the lightweight Grivel G20s and AirTechs, but the G20s can ball-up badly and are a positive liability in soft snow so I'd hesitate to recommend them as a first (or only) crampon.
In reply to wbo:
It'll be from different stores abroad, some of them have low enough prices to justify the customs tax. The rope I just bought from epictv.com's shop, and the crampons I'll probably get from trekkinn.com (which I hear only good things about from people who've used it despite the shabby look of the website)
It'll be from different stores abroad, some of them have low enough prices to justify the customs tax. The rope I just bought from epictv.com's shop, and the crampons I'll probably get from trekkinn.com (which I hear only good things about from people who've used it despite the shabby look of the website)
1
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
There are some stores here I can try them in.
I have the Nepal Extremes, if that helps any.
There are some stores here I can try them in.
I have the Nepal Extremes, if that helps any.
In reply to TheFasting:
I've used trekinn before. Worked ok but beware you will get hit with moms (vat). When i got my rope i stopped around the usual norsk subjekts and got a pretty unbeatable price (60m, protect, ~ 750nok). Does anyone actually have the Finesse in stock?(edit - just saw the Epictetus comment - moms again )
Surprised on those stegjern weights - I could have worn the Lynx was 1200g - maybe it depends on which toebale, double or mono point.
I've used trekinn before. Worked ok but beware you will get hit with moms (vat). When i got my rope i stopped around the usual norsk subjekts and got a pretty unbeatable price (60m, protect, ~ 750nok). Does anyone actually have the Finesse in stock?(edit - just saw the Epictetus comment - moms again )
Surprised on those stegjern weights - I could have worn the Lynx was 1200g - maybe it depends on which toebale, double or mono point.
Post edited at 22:49
In reply to TheFasting:
On buying gear, as you are part of a club can you not order new kit under the clubs identity? I vaguely remember something about club bought equipment being tax free in Norway (i.e. if it's technically for the club but not really*)... Unless it has changed in recent years. Worth asking any friends in the club on this.
Otherwise do you have any friends in Longyearbyen you can post it to, then have it Norgespakke'd back south?
*I'm pretty sure this is a thing cause we do it with ammunition.
On buying gear, as you are part of a club can you not order new kit under the clubs identity? I vaguely remember something about club bought equipment being tax free in Norway (i.e. if it's technically for the club but not really*)... Unless it has changed in recent years. Worth asking any friends in the club on this.
Otherwise do you have any friends in Longyearbyen you can post it to, then have it Norgespakke'd back south?
*I'm pretty sure this is a thing cause we do it with ammunition.
In reply to wbo:
Quarks in ELITE MOUNTAIN SUPPLIES £148 each or £295 pair deal.
Trekinn are more expensive.
Go to go outdoors get them to price match EMS and you will get an additional 10% off it
Quarks in ELITE MOUNTAIN SUPPLIES £148 each or £295 pair deal.
Trekinn are more expensive.
Go to go outdoors get them to price match EMS and you will get an additional 10% off it
In reply to GarethSL:
I've never once touched my knuckles on a route with them, on ice or mixed. Different styles, different routes perhaps.
I've never once touched my knuckles on a route with them, on ice or mixed. Different styles, different routes perhaps.
3
In reply to TheFasting:
This has been a great thread for me as I am in a similar position of kitting myself out. So I am inexperienced....however I have been on the ice wall in Covent Garden a few times and been able to compare Nomics, Quarks and the Edelrid Riot. The Nomics are used for the overhang, which according to an instructor climbs at WI6. The other routes are WI4 (slab) and WI5 (bulge). At least they're the grades he reckons for when the ice has been reformed, rather than at the weekend when the slab is a ladder. Both the Quarks and Riots easily got me up the other climbs, and of the two I definitely prefer the heavier Riots. They're also around £50 cheaper new, although I've never seen a second hand pair offered. So maybe it's a thought. It may be that I'm a heavier climber and that makes a difference, or even that my swing is less of a cultured flick of the wrist and more of a smash! Personally I am on the cusp of getting a set of Bandits for a trip to Norway, largely on price. The reviews I've seen are very good, certainly for up to WI4 and maybe more, but experienced people feel free to comment...
Anyway enjoy your shopping...
This has been a great thread for me as I am in a similar position of kitting myself out. So I am inexperienced....however I have been on the ice wall in Covent Garden a few times and been able to compare Nomics, Quarks and the Edelrid Riot. The Nomics are used for the overhang, which according to an instructor climbs at WI6. The other routes are WI4 (slab) and WI5 (bulge). At least they're the grades he reckons for when the ice has been reformed, rather than at the weekend when the slab is a ladder. Both the Quarks and Riots easily got me up the other climbs, and of the two I definitely prefer the heavier Riots. They're also around £50 cheaper new, although I've never seen a second hand pair offered. So maybe it's a thought. It may be that I'm a heavier climber and that makes a difference, or even that my swing is less of a cultured flick of the wrist and more of a smash! Personally I am on the cusp of getting a set of Bandits for a trip to Norway, largely on price. The reviews I've seen are very good, certainly for up to WI4 and maybe more, but experienced people feel free to comment...
Anyway enjoy your shopping...
1
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