UKH

Hello all,
I have a colleague with a question relating to a DofE expedition she is running. She is WGL qualified and has run the same route up Ingleborough for a number of years. A new supervisor is saying she can't lead it because the summit is over 600m. Is this the case?
Thanks for any help,
Jeremy

Sounds like nonsense to me. As long as it's not considered high-mountain and there's no snow/ice about and no climbing involved then that is exactly what that award was designed for.

In reply to Jerry67: WGL isn't defined by a height limit.

"Suitable Terrain for the WGL will meet the following four criteria:
• open, uncultivated, non-mountainous high or remote country known variously as upland, moor, bog, fell, hill or down
• areas enclosed by well-defined geographical or man-made boundaries such as classified roads (areas that merge with mountain regions and do not have well- defined boundaries are excluded)
• areas of remoteness that are easily exited in a few hours, returning to a refuge or an accessible road
• areas where movement on steep or rocky terrain is not required (in either a planned or unplanned situation)"

In reply to Jerry67:

What Jez said!

In the WGL handbook it also says "Anyone who is uncertain about the suitability of a chosen venue should contact the appropriate Training Board" so perhaps a quick email to the MTA could get all the clarification you need.

Mark

In reply to Jerry67: Thanks all for the info. I've passed it on and she's waiting for the phone call from the supervisor tomorrow.
Cheers,
Jeremy

In reply to Jerry67:

Not a problem from a WGL point of view but why are a DofE group being led on expedition.

In reply to Jerry67: could this be anything to do with Scout and permit level or designation??...obviously not if the d of e is nothing to do with Scouts!

In reply to Wainers44:

As above it could be to do with limitations imposed by the Operating Authority ie local council / youth organisation etc.

In my extensive DofE experience the two very often are contradictory!

In reply to Jerry67: The DofE have recently released the latest edition of their Expedition guide.

I know that there are plenty of volunteers giving their time to enable the students to achieve their goals accross the DofE award.

The Expedition section has some specific requirements. The Expedition guide itself says "Whilst the DofE does not insist on specific qualifications, it is strongly recommended that suitable national qualifications for the choosen mode of travel are obtained" For Gold expeds there is a growing requirement for the supervisors to hold an ML in Wild country. Silvers can complete their expeditions in wild country if they have been trained and are proficient in the appropriate skills for wild country.

Ingleborough and all of the Dales come into the DofE description of Wild Country http://www.dofe.org/en/content/cms/leaders/expedition-areas/

Expeditions in Wild Country are assessed by the local DofE Panel before they can go ahead. They not only assess the validity of the groups route but also the experience of the support team.

For expeditions going over 600m AALS would require ML's be used to supervise the teams.

Expedition teams are trained in the appropriate skills by a trainer in a "hands-on" situation. The teams develop/demonstrate those skills whilst being closely supervised until is clear that the teams have sufficient skill level to go forward to their Qualifying expedition where they will be remotely supervised.

I've seen and met plenty of conscientious volunteers, with and without qualifications, who are supervising their teams on the hills and mountains. You meet some great people when you are sat on top of Corn Du waiting for your group.

I do know of others who sit in Cafe's all day until it is time to go home.

That is not me making a judgement about the person in the OP but my experience as I'm out there most weekends, employed to supervise DofE groups.

It is sad that the person in the OP is finding herself in this position but I am finding that DofE panels are moving towards being able to demonstrate/validate competance of the support team. The easiest way for them to do that is to ask for qualifications never mind that the person who has been doing it for years and knows the area well or much better than someone like myself who would come in with a qualification but less experience of the area.

Best wishes to the lady that common sense prevails.

Robin

In reply to annieman:

I feel this is probably hits the 'nail on the head'. It's highly probable that the person responsible for authorising these expeditions is interpreting guidelines for running them and either misconstruing them into something they are not or they genuinely have not got a clue about the purpose of the D of E award. it's equally as probable that it's both these factors and a number of others.

In reply to Jerry67:

Sounds like they might be getting WGL and BELA mixed up, which I think has a 600m limit, hopefully someone in the know will be along soon.

Craig.

In reply to Jerry67:

Of course, it depends on the level of the expedition. The Yorks Dales are classified as 'wild country' by the DofE, and thus should only be used for Gold expeds.

http://www.dofe.org/en/content/cms/leaders/expedition-areas/

There's also the little guidance note right at the bottom:

"DofE expeditions should be through, rather than over, wild country; it's about solitude, not altitude"

Not having access to the Expedition Guide (no PDF), I'm not sure if there's an explicit height rule.

In reply to annieman:

As a DofE assessor/supervisor, may I recommend this post above the others.

Awards matter not when it comes to DofE. The group are on their own for a start. If it's wild country then there are a whole load of other things that need to be considered, including whether the assessor/supervisor has a wild country ticket.

Apart from that, there's a load of inconsistency in the OP. Did the kids plan the exact same route the WGL has run? Is the run route 7 hours of activity over 2,3 or 4 days!? Why is the person leading the group?

In reply to Eric the Red:


I put that down to being a second-hand query, although I raised a quizzical eyebrow at the bit about having done 'the route' many times before, given the Condition that groups have to plan their own expedition...