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The current Petzyl technical catalogue suggests using a classic prussik knot linked from the climber's harness to the end of the rope that is ascending from the belayer as the lowering climber descends. Should the top bolt fail as the retreating climber takes out the other quickdraws on his way down, the fall would be limited to 'one clip' distance.(Petzyl page 7).
Petzyl state that this has been successfully tested with a 4m fall of an 80kg weight with 7mm cord on a 9.7mm single rope.
The prospect of taking a lead fall onto a prussik sounds scary............but not as scary as definitely hitting the ground if the top bolt fails after you've removed the top half of your quick draws on retreat.
Something like a'shunt' might be safer, but people are more likely to have prussiks on their harness than an extra bit of gear.
Anyone any experience of this method in action?
Petzyl state that this has been successfully tested with a 4m fall of an 80kg weight with 7mm cord on a 9.7mm single rope.
The prospect of taking a lead fall onto a prussik sounds scary............but not as scary as definitely hitting the ground if the top bolt fails after you've removed the top half of your quick draws on retreat.
Something like a'shunt' might be safer, but people are more likely to have prussiks on their harness than an extra bit of gear.
Anyone any experience of this method in action?
In reply to Pylon King: Did the peg fail?
In reply to Greg Murrow:
Sounds like a good idea when you're lowering off something questionable. If Petzl say they've tested it and it holds (under the specified test conditions) then I'd take that at face value. 7mm is pretty burly for a Prussik though!
No, I've not done it. When I've had to lower off a single bolt it's always been one I'm happy enough to take the chance on.
Can't imagine many people go sport climbing with Prussik loops though
jk
Sounds like a good idea when you're lowering off something questionable. If Petzl say they've tested it and it holds (under the specified test conditions) then I'd take that at face value. 7mm is pretty burly for a Prussik though!
No, I've not done it. When I've had to lower off a single bolt it's always been one I'm happy enough to take the chance on.
Can't imagine many people go sport climbing with Prussik loops though
jk
In reply to Greg Murrow:
No, but i was definitely a lot safer if it had
> (In reply to Pylon King) Did the peg fail?
No, but i was definitely a lot safer if it had
In reply to Greg Murrow:
>"Something like a'shunt' might be safer"
Yeah, trouble with the shunt might be that it would have to rotate 180deg with the rope during the fall. This might be a bit unpredictable as to whether if it manages to do this depending how you've attached it to your harness. I guess it would require some extention with a sling or cord at the very least.
>"Something like a'shunt' might be safer"
Yeah, trouble with the shunt might be that it would have to rotate 180deg with the rope during the fall. This might be a bit unpredictable as to whether if it manages to do this depending how you've attached it to your harness. I guess it would require some extention with a sling or cord at the very least.
In reply to Greg Murrow:
Not seen that one in the Petzl catalogue but sounds worth doing if you are climbing on a single rope.
With half or double ropes it's not a problem as you can easily rig the lower to be protected by the second rope...
Not seen that one in the Petzl catalogue but sounds worth doing if you are climbing on a single rope.
With half or double ropes it's not a problem as you can easily rig the lower to be protected by the second rope...
In reply to Greg Murrow:
A shunt most probably would not be safer, they are weak in dynamic load situations and can peel open like a banana.
> Something like a'shunt' might be safer, but people are more likely to have prussiks on their harness than an extra bit of gear.
A shunt most probably would not be safer, they are weak in dynamic load situations and can peel open like a banana.
In reply to Ron Walker:
How do you mean?
> (In reply to Greg Murrow)
>
> With half or double ropes it's not a problem as you can easily rig the lower to be protected by the second rope...
>
> With half or double ropes it's not a problem as you can easily rig the lower to be protected by the second rope...
How do you mean?
In reply to Ron Walker:
>"With half or double ropes it's not a problem as you can easily rig the lower to be protected by the second rope..."
I've done this in the past. Faff for the belayer but very safe.
>"With half or double ropes it's not a problem as you can easily rig the lower to be protected by the second rope..."
I've done this in the past. Faff for the belayer but very safe.
In reply to jonny2vests:
One rope goes though the lower off anchor on which you are lowered, other rope is taken in by the belayer as he lowers you meaning that if the anchor goes the fall would be no bigger than a leader fall onto the quickdraw you haven't yet lowered past and stripped.
One rope goes though the lower off anchor on which you are lowered, other rope is taken in by the belayer as he lowers you meaning that if the anchor goes the fall would be no bigger than a leader fall onto the quickdraw you haven't yet lowered past and stripped.
In reply to jonny2vests:
Pretty simple really and really useful on trad climbs with iffy gear as well as sport!
You have the 'one' lowering rope clipped into the high runner and as you are lowered the belayer takes in the second rope. The second rope is not clipped into top anchor but acts as a backup. When you reach any runners you just unclip the second backup rope each time as you descend.
It's similar to being on lead as you are then protected by the runners should the top anchor fail.
A bit like climbing on video rewind!!!
Pretty simple really and really useful on trad climbs with iffy gear as well as sport!
You have the 'one' lowering rope clipped into the high runner and as you are lowered the belayer takes in the second rope. The second rope is not clipped into top anchor but acts as a backup. When you reach any runners you just unclip the second backup rope each time as you descend.
It's similar to being on lead as you are then protected by the runners should the top anchor fail.
A bit like climbing on video rewind!!!
In reply to JLS:
Anyone used to and understanding belaying on trad with half ropes should find it pretty straightforward...
As you say it's very safe compare to the alternative of lowering of a suspect single bit of gear.
Anyone used to and understanding belaying on trad with half ropes should find it pretty straightforward...
As you say it's very safe compare to the alternative of lowering of a suspect single bit of gear.
In reply to Greg Murrow:
Anyone got a picture or link, please? i'm finding it a bit difficult to picture in my mind....ta!
Anyone got a picture or link, please? i'm finding it a bit difficult to picture in my mind....ta!
In reply to Greg Murrow:
Surely if you have taken out all the draws and the bolt fails you are falling the full height of the cliff anyway?
Surely if you have taken out all the draws and the bolt fails you are falling the full height of the cliff anyway?
In reply to thin bob:
google "petzl technical catalogue" and it will come up with a link to a pdf that you can download, the catalogue has pictures in it where it describes this technique
google "petzl technical catalogue" and it will come up with a link to a pdf that you can download, the catalogue has pictures in it where it describes this technique
In reply to thin bob:
is this the catalogue?
http://www.petzl.com/catalogue/Petzl-Sport-catalog-2011-EN.pdf
Just trying to figure out whats being talked about aswell
Paul
is this the catalogue?
http://www.petzl.com/catalogue/Petzl-Sport-catalog-2011-EN.pdf
Just trying to figure out whats being talked about aswell
Paul
In reply to existing debt:
Page 6 in that catalogue
It all makes sense now,
Ive never seen that tecnique before, but it looks a good way of doing things
Paul
Page 6 in that catalogue
It all makes sense now,
Ive never seen that tecnique before, but it looks a good way of doing things
Paul
In reply to Greg Murrow:
Sounds sensible to me prussic cord would hold a fall no probs as long as it was in good nick!!!
For the record a shunt 'would not' peel open like a banana and would be fine although a little cumbersome for sport climber types!
Sounds sensible to me prussic cord would hold a fall no probs as long as it was in good nick!!!
For the record a shunt 'would not' peel open like a banana and would be fine although a little cumbersome for sport climber types!
In reply to Dan Parker:
It can and has failed in dynamic situations. For the record.
http://www.rope-access.co.uk/docs/RA_Testing_Paper.pdf
> (In reply to Greg Murrow)
>
> Sounds sensible to me prussic cord would hold a fall no probs as long as it was in good nick!!!
>
> For the record a shunt 'would not' peel open like a banana and would be fine although a little cumbersome for sport climber types!
>
> Sounds sensible to me prussic cord would hold a fall no probs as long as it was in good nick!!!
>
> For the record a shunt 'would not' peel open like a banana and would be fine although a little cumbersome for sport climber types!
It can and has failed in dynamic situations. For the record.
http://www.rope-access.co.uk/docs/RA_Testing_Paper.pdf
In reply to Greg Murrow:
A neat idea but worth bearing in mind that sport routes with good bolts and poor belays are not that common.
Chris
A neat idea but worth bearing in mind that sport routes with good bolts and poor belays are not that common.
Chris
In reply to jonny2vests: The 'unfolding like a banana' only happens if the shunt is unable to slide freely to absorb the shock ie. it hits a knot in the rope. In the scenario suggested it will never hit a knot - the slack between the climber and the shunt will come tight onto the climber's harness in the very worst case scenario.
In reply to Toerag:
Forget the banana, its a weak piece of kit in dynamic situations.
> (In reply to jonny2vests) The 'unfolding like a banana' only happens if the shunt is unable to slide freely to absorb the shock ie. it hits a knot in the rope. In the scenario suggested it will never hit a knot - the slack between the climber and the shunt will come tight onto the climber's harness in the very worst case scenario.
Forget the banana, its a weak piece of kit in dynamic situations.
page 6.. i didn't know obama climbed.
In reply to Greg Murrow:
if your that worried about it then why dont you use the other technique suggested by petzl in the catalog clipping the top two bolts with mallions then if the top bolt fails your held by the one below it
if your that worried about it then why dont you use the other technique suggested by petzl in the catalog clipping the top two bolts with mallions then if the top bolt fails your held by the one below it
In reply to Greg Murrow:
Can I also add to the debate that if you are sufficiently worried about a lower of to go to this length then it probably needs replaced. If you dont feel capable of carrying this out yourself then report it to someone who will.
Can I also add to the debate that if you are sufficiently worried about a lower of to go to this length then it probably needs replaced. If you dont feel capable of carrying this out yourself then report it to someone who will.
In reply to sheppy: Thanks for all the comments. Final point from me is to emphasise that the prussik is THE 'prussik' ie not a 'french prussik' so commonly used to self protect abseil descents but the one capable of holding in either direction.
Personally I'm grateful to have learned something from the Petzyl info. At the end of the day we make our own decisions.
Personally I'm grateful to have learned something from the Petzyl info. At the end of the day we make our own decisions.
In reply to sheppy: not really very helpfull if you get to the belay and only once you have got to it do you realise that you would'nt trust it - you still need to get down somehow to be able to ask someone else to change it!
In reply to Greg Murrow:
how often do bolts fail under static loads?
i think you need to worry less and climb more!
how often do bolts fail under static loads?
i think you need to worry less and climb more!
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In reply to bigbobbyking:
Leave a krab/maillion on the last decent bolt is the easy solution.
Chris
>
>
> I assumed he means for situations where you can't reach the belay.
>
> I assumed he means for situations where you can't reach the belay.
Leave a krab/maillion on the last decent bolt is the easy solution.
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Did u look at the petzel cat? The prussik is to reduce the distance you would fall if the bolt/belay fails
> (In reply to bigbobbyking)
> [...]
>
> Leave a krab/maillion on the last decent bolt is the easy solution.
>
> Chris
> [...]
>
> Leave a krab/maillion on the last decent bolt is the easy solution.
>
> Chris
Did u look at the petzel cat? The prussik is to reduce the distance you would fall if the bolt/belay fails
In reply to Ron Walker: What Ron is saying is the case when you're clipping gear on alternate ropes, but the OP made me think that this could be useful in a situation where you may be on a pitch with a traverse in. Typically you might clip one rope before the traverse, then the other rope climbing up from the traverse. In which case a retreat using the prussik from high up would make it a bit safer. Sounds like a useful trick to have in the bag for that rare occasion when you need it.
In reply to major stabby:
I have met Petzl the cat and he is a legend. Last known abode Tent and Trail in New York City.
>
> Did u look at the petzel cat?
> Did u look at the petzel cat?
I have met Petzl the cat and he is a legend. Last known abode Tent and Trail in New York City.
In reply to jonny2vests:
I believe, though I may be wrong - as it's a long time since I read that report and I couldn't be assed re-reading it - that the shunt opening up was when it hit a knot with a 2 person load, to simulate the use of the shunt as a backup in rope access; this would be unlikely to happen on a dynamic rope with a single person load, it might run a bit before stopping. The use of the phrase dynamic loading I find is a bit misleading when referring to shock loading on a semi static.
Just my humble opinion.
Straying a bit from the OP here, sorry folks.
I believe, though I may be wrong - as it's a long time since I read that report and I couldn't be assed re-reading it - that the shunt opening up was when it hit a knot with a 2 person load, to simulate the use of the shunt as a backup in rope access; this would be unlikely to happen on a dynamic rope with a single person load, it might run a bit before stopping. The use of the phrase dynamic loading I find is a bit misleading when referring to shock loading on a semi static.
Just my humble opinion.
Straying a bit from the OP here, sorry folks.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Sorry Chris but I beg to differ.
Most routes in ,say,the Costa Blanca end a single point for the lower. Often this is not even a climbing krab but a cheap nautical substitute.
Even two bolts and chain to a krab/ring does not offer any redundancy.
Also a bolt runner failure is not usually fatal. A lower off failure will.
I have my doubts about using a prussik, it not being tested for a fall of more than 4 metres and of unspecified fall factor.
A technique I have used for over thirty years, mainly to give extra confidence on Alpine abseils, is to clip the ab rope into runners on the way down. First climber down then keeps attached to the rope. If the anchor fails the second abseiler is still attached to the system.
Abseiling using a magic plate/reverso can enhance this technique as it can be set up to lock in the event of a failure. If you need to ask any questions don't try this out yourself.
This technique can also be used on a lower off scenario.
Get to a poor lower, lower yourself with a magic plate (the older flat ones are best as they give a better level of friction) the belayer keeping the rope on.
I have not found any info on reverso /rope strength at the leaders end of a fall but several autolock belay devices use a similar principal so I am personally very confident in the technique, especially compared to the alternative (death!).
Rick
>
> A neat idea but worth bearing in mind that sport routes with good bolts and poor belays are not that common.
> A neat idea but worth bearing in mind that sport routes with good bolts and poor belays are not that common.
Sorry Chris but I beg to differ.
Most routes in ,say,the Costa Blanca end a single point for the lower. Often this is not even a climbing krab but a cheap nautical substitute.
Even two bolts and chain to a krab/ring does not offer any redundancy.
Also a bolt runner failure is not usually fatal. A lower off failure will.
I have my doubts about using a prussik, it not being tested for a fall of more than 4 metres and of unspecified fall factor.
A technique I have used for over thirty years, mainly to give extra confidence on Alpine abseils, is to clip the ab rope into runners on the way down. First climber down then keeps attached to the rope. If the anchor fails the second abseiler is still attached to the system.
Abseiling using a magic plate/reverso can enhance this technique as it can be set up to lock in the event of a failure. If you need to ask any questions don't try this out yourself.
This technique can also be used on a lower off scenario.
Get to a poor lower, lower yourself with a magic plate (the older flat ones are best as they give a better level of friction) the belayer keeping the rope on.
I have not found any info on reverso /rope strength at the leaders end of a fall but several autolock belay devices use a similar principal so I am personally very confident in the technique, especially compared to the alternative (death!).
Rick
In reply to Rick Graham:
I have just got back from the Blanca, did 80 routes and don't recall any single bolt lower-offs.
How can two bolts and two lengths of chain into a single crap not offer redundancy?
Chris
>
>
> Sorry Chris but I beg to differ.
> Most routes in ,say,the Costa Blanca end a single point for the lower. Often this is not even a climbing krab but a cheap nautical substitute.
>
> Sorry Chris but I beg to differ.
> Most routes in ,say,the Costa Blanca end a single point for the lower. Often this is not even a climbing krab but a cheap nautical substitute.
I have just got back from the Blanca, did 80 routes and don't recall any single bolt lower-offs.
> Even two bolts and chain to a krab/ring does not offer any redundancy.
How can two bolts and two lengths of chain into a single crap not offer redundancy?
Chris
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
Hi Chris
The clues are in the words used and the order they are arranged.
Please read my post again.
Rick
> How can two bolts and two lengths of chain into a single crab not offer redundancy?
Hi Chris
The clues are in the words used and the order they are arranged.
Please read my post again.
Rick
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