This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Currently wondering about 1st set of ice axes as I'd like to progress to something a bit more technical in the Alps this summer.
Haven't done any proper ice climbing previously, but would like to move on from PD/AD to something more interesting.
Current thoughts are DMM Fly or Petzl Aztar, as they're both the right shape to be used in the same way as a walking axe when required, on the less expensive end of the spectrum (on ebay anyway) and I'm not after super-technical tools.
Any opinions or advice gratefully received.
Haven't done any proper ice climbing previously, but would like to move on from PD/AD to something more interesting.
Current thoughts are DMM Fly or Petzl Aztar, as they're both the right shape to be used in the same way as a walking axe when required, on the less expensive end of the spectrum (on ebay anyway) and I'm not after super-technical tools.
Any opinions or advice gratefully received.
In reply to Aeneas:
I have a pair of virtually untouched aztars knocking around after an abandoned foray into thinking I might use them. The only ice climbing i did with them was at ellis brigham and a bit of ice bouldering in switzerland before realising what I actually needed was not these, as the odds of me going much beyond AD are pretty slim...
From the research I did at the time I don't remember there being a huge difference, but DMM didn't seem to be making many flys then. I also preferred the weighting of the aztars.
Shameless sales pitch over, if your looking for a pair PM me...
I have a pair of virtually untouched aztars knocking around after an abandoned foray into thinking I might use them. The only ice climbing i did with them was at ellis brigham and a bit of ice bouldering in switzerland before realising what I actually needed was not these, as the odds of me going much beyond AD are pretty slim...
From the research I did at the time I don't remember there being a huge difference, but DMM didn't seem to be making many flys then. I also preferred the weighting of the aztars.
Shameless sales pitch over, if your looking for a pair PM me...
In reply to Aeneas:
Honestly, they're both relics of the past that make life unnecessarily hard for yourself. You'll find it much easier to pick up ice climbing with any good leashless tool than one with leashes, and physically its actually easier this way once the ice gets steeper. Its also more fun than being strapped in!
Go for some DMM Rebels if you're after a budget tool, although you have to be aware that these really don't swing as well and gain as secure placements as the higher end of tools on the market. The next step up is the Black Diamond Vipers or Petzl Quarks if you can't get these (not quite as good).
The next step up is the Nomics, which are my axes of choice for hard alpine climbing thanks to their more radical curve which works better on mixed ground and the fact that they are hands down the best axe for steep ice. They don't work perfectly in some types of snow, but still do work well enough in my opinion.
I hope that answers your question! Also don't forget that crampon choice is very important as well; you'll find that having horizontal rather than vertical front points makes a huge improvement to your climbing.
Honestly, they're both relics of the past that make life unnecessarily hard for yourself. You'll find it much easier to pick up ice climbing with any good leashless tool than one with leashes, and physically its actually easier this way once the ice gets steeper. Its also more fun than being strapped in!
Go for some DMM Rebels if you're after a budget tool, although you have to be aware that these really don't swing as well and gain as secure placements as the higher end of tools on the market. The next step up is the Black Diamond Vipers or Petzl Quarks if you can't get these (not quite as good).
The next step up is the Nomics, which are my axes of choice for hard alpine climbing thanks to their more radical curve which works better on mixed ground and the fact that they are hands down the best axe for steep ice. They don't work perfectly in some types of snow, but still do work well enough in my opinion.
I hope that answers your question! Also don't forget that crampon choice is very important as well; you'll find that having horizontal rather than vertical front points makes a huge improvement to your climbing.
In reply to alan1234:
Read the post - he's after alpine tools, not steep ice and mixed.
Either Flys or Aztars will work great in the Alps - and contrary to what some seem to think - actually work extremely well on steep ice and mixed as well.
Read the post - he's after alpine tools, not steep ice and mixed.
Either Flys or Aztars will work great in the Alps - and contrary to what some seem to think - actually work extremely well on steep ice and mixed as well.
In reply to Colin Wells:
Thats fair enough Colin, you obviously have a fair bit of experience, but I have personally found that leashed tools don't perform well at all on any type of ice, regardless of the angle. They're cumbersome to traverse with, waste time when placing protection, and generally don't allow fluid and fast climbing in the same way that leashless tools do.
Thats fair enough Colin, you obviously have a fair bit of experience, but I have personally found that leashed tools don't perform well at all on any type of ice, regardless of the angle. They're cumbersome to traverse with, waste time when placing protection, and generally don't allow fluid and fast climbing in the same way that leashless tools do.
In reply to Aeneas:
aztars modified with quark rest will do anything well short of overhanging mixed and long steep water ice (they dont have enough hook to them to hang from well or efficiently).
bit of tape round the head as they are cold to hold and youre good.
just double check they take the same picks as aztarexs as i dont think aztars are still on the market (or buy up).
dont know the flys tho.
aztars modified with quark rest will do anything well short of overhanging mixed and long steep water ice (they dont have enough hook to them to hang from well or efficiently).
bit of tape round the head as they are cold to hold and youre good.
just double check they take the same picks as aztarexs as i dont think aztars are still on the market (or buy up).
dont know the flys tho.
In reply to Aeneas: If you want a pair of tools, rather than an axe and a secondary hammer (or basically any type), then the new Petzl Quarks feel and look rather un-radical and would work well on easy stuff but will climb vertical ice perfectly or Scottish VI well should you ever get to that.
In reply to alan1234:
Whether leashless is better in all situations is a fair enough argument - it isn't for me and I climb steep ice better, faster and more safely with leashes but that's just me - but to say leashed tools don't perform "at all well on any type of ice" is plainly ridiculous. Even five years ago wrist loops were still the norm and that means the majority of great ice climbs around the world before say, 2005, were done with leashes.
> but I have personally found that leashed tools don't perform well at all on any type of ice, regardless of the angle.
Whether leashless is better in all situations is a fair enough argument - it isn't for me and I climb steep ice better, faster and more safely with leashes but that's just me - but to say leashed tools don't perform "at all well on any type of ice" is plainly ridiculous. Even five years ago wrist loops were still the norm and that means the majority of great ice climbs around the world before say, 2005, were done with leashes.
In reply to TobyA:
Its true that a lot of hard ascents have been done with leashes (although a lot with 'cheater' leashes completely unlike the ones on sale today), but the fact remains that such climbs are much much harder with 'regular' leashes.
Also its a bit off topic but are you sure you just haven't given leashless climbing a proper try? The trick is to shake out every 2 or 3 moves, before you get pumped, so that you never do get pumped on very steep ice. Also not to grip the tools too tightly, as is often the case when people make the switch. Try top roping 10 laps of vertical grade 5 ice, and I guarantee you'll notice the difference. I've had plenty of clients climbing all their lives, and they all realise how much better it is to climb leashless within the first day.
Its true that a lot of hard ascents have been done with leashes (although a lot with 'cheater' leashes completely unlike the ones on sale today), but the fact remains that such climbs are much much harder with 'regular' leashes.
Also its a bit off topic but are you sure you just haven't given leashless climbing a proper try? The trick is to shake out every 2 or 3 moves, before you get pumped, so that you never do get pumped on very steep ice. Also not to grip the tools too tightly, as is often the case when people make the switch. Try top roping 10 laps of vertical grade 5 ice, and I guarantee you'll notice the difference. I've had plenty of clients climbing all their lives, and they all realise how much better it is to climb leashless within the first day.
In reply to alan1234:
I ice climb a couple of times a week normally from November to April (this year my last ice route was on the last day of March). I climb probably 85% leashless and I've at least tried most of mainstream models of ice tools on the market. I've been climbing leashless at least some of the time since I think the 2004 season. So I'm not just pulling an opinion out of thin air.
People's bodies just work differently. I have friends who find the hardest thing about long ice routes is their calf muscles cramping up. I just seem to have strong legs and never have a problem with that. I can hang on handjam much longer than I can off even a really good jug, and in the same way, I am much more secure and relaxed with a wrist loop on steep ice than with out.
Saying all routes "are much harder" with wrist-loops is just an over generalisation. They maybe for you, but not for everyone. Besides, anything - it seems people are falling off ice climbs much more in recent years, and along with increased participation it would seem that is in part due to leashless climbing.
> Also its a bit off topic but are you sure you just haven't given leashless climbing a proper try?
I ice climb a couple of times a week normally from November to April (this year my last ice route was on the last day of March). I climb probably 85% leashless and I've at least tried most of mainstream models of ice tools on the market. I've been climbing leashless at least some of the time since I think the 2004 season. So I'm not just pulling an opinion out of thin air.
People's bodies just work differently. I have friends who find the hardest thing about long ice routes is their calf muscles cramping up. I just seem to have strong legs and never have a problem with that. I can hang on handjam much longer than I can off even a really good jug, and in the same way, I am much more secure and relaxed with a wrist loop on steep ice than with out.
Saying all routes "are much harder" with wrist-loops is just an over generalisation. They maybe for you, but not for everyone. Besides, anything - it seems people are falling off ice climbs much more in recent years, and along with increased participation it would seem that is in part due to leashless climbing.
In reply to TobyA:
Sure its just I've never actually met a climber in the last few years doing something hard with leashes, and I also climb a lot (100 days this season).
Sure its just I've never actually met a climber in the last few years doing something hard with leashes, and I also climb a lot (100 days this season).
In reply to Aeneas: Neither - get the Quarks. might cost a bit more but worth the money in longer terms. will take you further than either of these axes.
In reply to alan1234: Is your age in your profile correct? If so I guess you started ice climbing after leashless climbing became normal. If I take people climbing for the first time now, I'd always suggest they just climb leashless from the start and get used to it, but there are lots of us who started before anyone had thought of not using leashes and hence no the advantages as well as the disadvantages. There is a certain amount of trouble in changing habits after doing one thing for a decade or more.
BTW, with say BD Android leashes or similar good ones the differences is a lot less compared to old school leashes. I might climb part of a pitch leashless, part leashed etc. Clipping in and out takes literally one or two seconds.
BTW, with say BD Android leashes or similar good ones the differences is a lot less compared to old school leashes. I might climb part of a pitch leashless, part leashed etc. Clipping in and out takes literally one or two seconds.
In reply to Aeneas: Neither!
In reply to TobyA:
It is now, and I've updated my profile in general whilst I was at it. By the way, I think the reason that more people are falling has more to do with people leading before they are ready and no longer realising that you simply must not fall. Of course it is harder to catch a slip without leashes, but not hugely so.
It is now, and I've updated my profile in general whilst I was at it. By the way, I think the reason that more people are falling has more to do with people leading before they are ready and no longer realising that you simply must not fall. Of course it is harder to catch a slip without leashes, but not hugely so.
In reply to Aeneas:
My thoughts are unless you are doing long pure ice routes something very light and general purpose along the lines of the Grivel Evo Airtech or Petzl Sum'tec work well on their own when routes are in good condition and difficulties short!!!!
You can then supplement the axe with a more technical tool / hammer such as the Aztar on long more sustained harder ice or steeper snow / ice routes... See http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=125613
BTW the Aztars work fine leashless without a grip rest on easier angled routes you'll likely be doing and on steeper routes they work well leashless by adding a griprest.... See http://talisman-activities.blogspot.com/2010/12/leashless-aztar-mod.html
Cheers Ron
My thoughts are unless you are doing long pure ice routes something very light and general purpose along the lines of the Grivel Evo Airtech or Petzl Sum'tec work well on their own when routes are in good condition and difficulties short!!!!
You can then supplement the axe with a more technical tool / hammer such as the Aztar on long more sustained harder ice or steeper snow / ice routes... See http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=125613
BTW the Aztars work fine leashless without a grip rest on easier angled routes you'll likely be doing and on steeper routes they work well leashless by adding a griprest.... See http://talisman-activities.blogspot.com/2010/12/leashless-aztar-mod.html
Cheers Ron
In reply to Ron Walker: Have you tried the Sum'tec Ron? They look lovely. I wish I lived close enough to the mountains to have a good reason to buy one! For the Alps they look pretty perfect.
In reply to TobyA:
You ought to do a review!!!
The Sum'tec is pretty good for the easier Scottish stuff including the Mirror Direct and great for mountaineering - in fact it's better than some of the technical axes that we both used just a few years ago!!!
You obviously haven't seen some of my headcam videos using the Sum'tec and a modified Aztar!
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsfFaNl7M8w&feature=related
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSMbc6LH8KQ&feature=channel_video_title
Cheers Ron
> (In reply to Ron Walker) Have you tried the Sum'tec Ron? They look lovely. I wish I lived close enough to the mountains to have a good reason to buy one! For the Alps they look pretty perfect.
You ought to do a review!!!
The Sum'tec is pretty good for the easier Scottish stuff including the Mirror Direct and great for mountaineering - in fact it's better than some of the technical axes that we both used just a few years ago!!!
You obviously haven't seen some of my headcam videos using the Sum'tec and a modified Aztar!
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsfFaNl7M8w&feature=related
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSMbc6LH8KQ&feature=channel_video_title
Cheers Ron
In reply to Aeneas: I have a pair of aztarex tools which I bought for alpine climbing. Very light weight and good for using as walking axe on approach, yet able to climb very technical ground. I've climbed welsh and Scottish routes of grade V with them leash less. The swing is fantastic and placements secure, better than my quarks!
cant go wrong with Aztar or Aztarex in my opinion
cant go wrong with Aztar or Aztarex in my opinion
In reply to Ron Walker: Read this review with interest, surely Quarks if one already has a venerable MT alpine axe!
In reply to Jasonic: Having had a play with some Quarks today, they seem to fit me better than Aztars. Now to consider the jump in cost!
My mountain tech walking axe will have to survive a bit longer if I go for Quarks.
Aztarex sound nice but I haven't seen any in the flesh yet - they're a bit hard to find
My mountain tech walking axe will have to survive a bit longer if I go for Quarks.
Aztarex sound nice but I haven't seen any in the flesh yet - they're a bit hard to find
In reply to Aeneas:
The main problem with the Quarks is that they have that really annoying rest for the upper finger that impedes swinging and makes it harder to hold on to the axe. You can move it up out of the way, but it is integral to the upper 'pinkie rest' so you can't remove it completely without taking that off as well.
I highly recommend that you try the Vipers as well! Its a bit of pros and cons because the metal that they use in the picks breaks slightly more often than that of the Quarks, and they do get stuck slightly more often, but in my opinion they make up for this with the better weighting of the tool that leads to a more natural swing. Both tools have a very similar shape so snow plunging should be roughly equal.
The main problem with the Quarks is that they have that really annoying rest for the upper finger that impedes swinging and makes it harder to hold on to the axe. You can move it up out of the way, but it is integral to the upper 'pinkie rest' so you can't remove it completely without taking that off as well.
I highly recommend that you try the Vipers as well! Its a bit of pros and cons because the metal that they use in the picks breaks slightly more often than that of the Quarks, and they do get stuck slightly more often, but in my opinion they make up for this with the better weighting of the tool that leads to a more natural swing. Both tools have a very similar shape so snow plunging should be roughly equal.
In reply to alan1234:
When I tried my friend's new Quarks, I'm pretty certain my all my fingers fitted under that no problem. If yours don't, you can just move it maybe just 1 or 2 cms up and out the way. Then you can still use the secondary hand position easily.
> The main problem with the Quarks is that they have that really annoying rest for the upper finger that impedes swinging and makes it harder to hold on to the axe. You can move it up out of the way, but it is integral to the upper 'pinkie rest' so you can't remove it completely without taking that off as well.
When I tried my friend's new Quarks, I'm pretty certain my all my fingers fitted under that no problem. If yours don't, you can just move it maybe just 1 or 2 cms up and out the way. Then you can still use the secondary hand position easily.
In reply to TobyA:
I've got the new Quarks and not had an issue with the upper rest, holding it or swinging. It moves very easily if you somehow manage to find it an issue.
I've got the new Quarks and not had an issue with the upper rest, holding it or swinging. It moves very easily if you somehow manage to find it an issue.
In reply to TobyA:
This is true, but it then means that you have a couple of cm of useless shaft which means that when matching you have to go even higher on a not very radically curved tool.
This is true, but it then means that you have a couple of cm of useless shaft which means that when matching you have to go even higher on a not very radically curved tool.
In reply to alan1234: Could you just snip off the sticky-out bit on 'finger-rest'/cam lock? I also thought it was a pretty dump idea - years ago we experimented with 'triggers' using tape: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=25862 I thought it was stupid and just seemed to artificially increase how pumped you got - so not sure what Petzl's idea is. It looked liked they need some way to make the upper rest adjustable so decided on lever locked cam, but then tried to make that lever look cool.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...