UKH

Talk to me about the best practices of setting up top rope anchors on trad routes (M to Diff)

Visiting Devon with kids and planning to explore Dartmoor. Hound Tor, Sheeps Tor, Chapel Woods seem to be recommended here as the best family/beginner friendly crags. 

I am fairly confident with setting up TRs on routes with bolted anchor points (like Southern Sandstone), using trees, or on sport routes. It looks like Tors have none of those features. 

Would setting up TR there be essentially the same as a trad belay? Needless to say I am competent at trad belays.
Apart from the bomber placement, what is the best way to mitigate the risk of not being able to see the gear is still in place, if you are belaying from the bottom? 
Inspecting it every few ascents? Anything else?

Any other best practices I need to bear in mind for Dartmoor/Devon in particular? Apart from the most obvious ones: appropriate route, straight up line, no zig zags or traverses, no cross-over with other routes, protect the slings/static from rubbing against sharp edges.

Anything else I should be aware of?
 

In reply to AG1:

I did this video during lockdown, they got better throughout lockdown and I think this was an early one, hopefully it's of some use though!

youtube.com/watch?v=eaApvRKwqSE&

In reply to AG1:

On many of the easier routes at the crags you mention you can usually loop a long sling or length of static rope around boulders or other features at the tops of the climbs. Nothing specific you need to know. Have fun!

In reply to AG1:

Extra redundncy. More pieces in the anchor, back to back screwgates on the master point. Rope protector can be handy too.

In reply to AG1:

If you visit the Dewerstone, don’t rig off the trees - the landowner requests you don’t, they’re often in very thin soil over the granite, and there are loads of placements available. (Do pass this on if you see anyone else doing it - the regulars should know better, but the landowner’s sign has vanished again so if you’re new to the crag it’s not that obvious).

If you visit Hound Tor or Sheep's Tor, give any blocks you are considering slinging a good wobble first - there are several moveable ones that appear to be good if you don’t notice it move!

If you go to Haytor, be prepared for many non-climbing folks to be around (and sometimes on the top too).

Everything at Sheep’s Tor is a little hard for the grade compared to the rest of the moor, but it is still a good venue.
—-

Consider bringing a length of static rope - you may struggle if you’re trying to equalise it all on slings - 20m should be ample for most things.

Definitely bring some rope protectors too - the granite demolishes ropes, particularly with the cyclic load/unload nature of bottom rope climbing. 
 

There is always the option of rigging at the top as if you had lead the route, and then throwing the climber end of the rope down to them too. This means you are always present to monitor the placements and keep tension on the anchors, and don’t have to keep walking up and down to the top every time you want to change routes, but does mean you don’t get to climb yourself of course!

Have fun - Dartmoor granite is great.

In reply to jayjackson:

Belaying from above would work for experienced climbers that you trust to tie in OK but maybe not ideal for kids?

If there's someone else to buddy check them at the bottom then fine.

In reply to jezb1:

Great video, many useful tips and insights, thanks. Explored your channel a bit too, you cover a lot of things I have been wondering about. 

What length of static would you recommend for rigging up? 10m served us well so far but I can see how it would limit a 3 point rig if one of the points is too far. 
In one of the YT comments you mentioned that you use 50m which seems a lot, given that I am by no means a mountain leader, although effectively taking the role of one when taking the kids out.

In reply to Rob:

Excellent, it’s good to know , thank you 

In reply to scope:

Ok, sounds good , thanks 

In reply to jayjackson:

Perfect, useful to know, thank you.

In reply to drconline:

I considered this as an option too, actually. There will be another competent adult at the bottom, so that might work too.

In reply to jayjackson:

I have 10m but I can see how it would limit us in this scenario. Getting a 20m seems reasonable although I am not opposed to a longer option if that would make more sense long term.

In reply to AG1:

I think 10m and some slings would be perfectly reasonable, give that you already have it. You can always extend the far-away piece with a sling or two to make it work, and that's easier, cheaper and lighter than always lugging 20m of rope to the crag when you probably won't need the extra length the majority of the time.

In reply to Rob:

Other than:

Slings can ride up and off boulders that slope 

Even the larges boulders can move so they need to be tested for solidity

Slings can get jammed and stuck in tight constrictions so a hex threaded along the sling can prevent this

What may appear a solid thread could be nothing more than earth or loose material and the sling pull through it

Setting up anchors is something that really can't just be learned from a few five minute youtube videos and a Can-Do attitude. Its not simple and safe and it takes lots of experience and feedback to learn how to do it safely. I would suggest the OP would be better reaching out to one of the many local instructors who i'm sure would be great full of the income now they can get back out working. Not only will the OP get safety , all the local knowledge of the best routes but all that 1:1 coaching on ropework and rock anchors.

In reply to AG1:

Glad you liked the video!

I tend to recommend 50m as a multi purpose static rope, just so people can have a rope that can be used for a bit of rigging one day and ab in to a sea cliff the next.

For solely rigging, I’d get something around 20, that would cover you in most situations.

Have fun!

In reply to muppetfilter:

Yes, but:

Needless to say I am competent at trad belays.

Seems to imply that the OP has no problem building belays, but wants advice on the best way to manage to rig a toprope ('bottom rope'?) from it, rather than build one and sit at the top of the crag like at the top of a pitch he's just led. Which is fair - let's face it, they're not entirely the same thing, especially if you're used to building the belay back to your harness with the rope.

In reply to tehmarks:

if someone has to ask certain questions about knowledge gaps then its showing the need for specific coaching in that area, what better way than to get hands on responsive input rather than trying to interpret and put into practice a video? There are tips and tricks that may be missed like extending over the edge with slings, Rope protection, Anchor Angles , route selection , stuck climber rescue. All these things that are situation specific and need experience to judge and get right.

Even hunting out a trainee MIA looking for logbook hours with clients is an option here.

In reply to AG1:

10 m will cover most scenarios, I think. If you find a rope which requires more, you can just go find another route and decide whether you want but a longer static later.

I have an 8m cord (used to be loner but I had to cut some off) which is good enough for many bottom ropes, admittedly on different rock.

In reply to AG1:

^^^^^^^  this is quite important; don't underestimate how rough Dartmoor granite is... 

In reply to muppetfilter:

Fair. 

Are what I assumed he was asking about, and which I see no problem learning from the Internet (or a book). I assumed that a climber experienced enough to know how to build a belay would be experienced enough to be able to select an appropriate route, and stuck climber rescue is surely as simple as lowering them back to the ground? The Dartmoor crags are all pretty diminutive...

I'm biased because I learnt to lead from reading, reading and reading, and then by surviving my first adventures. Hardly an approach that I would recommend to the budding novice trad leader, but I don't see the issue in soliciting tips on toprope rigging by someone who already climbs?

In reply to AG1:

A length of rope (static, 10 - 15m) is useful at both Sheeps Tor and Hound Tor for setting up top ropes, as some of the gear can be a little way back from the point you want a top rope set.   

If you're confident with building belays theres no issues. Usual mix of gear will do (big nuts and hexes often useful on the granite). At the top of sheeps tor there is at least one boulder that moves when you stand on it, so check blocks carefully.  

Normal belay rules apply, get 2-3 bomber pieces in and equalise to central point over the edge for a bottom rope.

Check regularly to make sure gear is all sound, and sit at the edge and top rope if you are worried about. I tend to avoid using cams if you cant see them for long period of time, as they have potential to walk if rope is getting pulled around below.    

Granite can be very sharp in places (once you pull on a few crystals you'll see why!), so watch the rope over edges, bring some edge protectors if you have them, or use an empty bag/ old jacket etc if not.

Also, weather on Dartmoor  very changable and often pretty windy/cold, even when its nice elsewhere.  

Have fun!  

In reply to jayjackson:

Hi Jay - I must say I've never noticed that sign before (or never read it fully).

Wasn't aware of requests to not rig off trees, which I've done a few times in Agags Slab area. I'll avoid in future. 

And in which case, someone better stick a bolt or two in at the top of Leviathan, as that tree has been hammered for about 40 years!   

In reply to AG1:

It might be worth considering Leigh Tor:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/leigh_tor-3743

In reply to AG1:

Agree that 20m of static rope good idea.

As an old git, I'm not quite getting the centralisation thing as shown in the video posted above; would it not be quite difficult sometimes to adjust the position of the screwgates taking the climbing rope? 

If I set up a top (bottom) rope arrangement I would:

Set a couple of pieces of gear ( possibly more); attach screwgates (call them anchor screwgates); tie a double figure of eight on the bight in the middle of the rope and fit one screwgate to each of the two loops (Call them top rope screwgates) - they will take the climbing rope ( opposite gates); tie an overhand or figure of eight about one metre from this - means that you have two parallel bits of the rigging rope going over the edge of the crag - so that, if one strand of the rigging rope breaks because of rubbing against the cliff edge, the climbing rope will not swing to one side ( as would happen using the set up in the video, I think?) because the remaining strand of rigging rope is still connected to both anchors. Clove hitch one side of the rigging rope to one of the anchor screwgates having roughly judged where you want the top rope screwgates to sit over the edge. Connect the climbing rope through the top rope screwgates (remember to lock screwgates!) and throw the climbing rope down to the bottom of the cliff. Now you can adjust the clove hitch on the first anchor screwgate to give you the exact position that you want the top rope screwgates to sit  over the cliff edge now that you have the weight of the climbing rope on the top rope screwgates. Once that is done you just then have to tie a second clove hitch to the second anchor screwgate using the other strand of the rigging rope , adjusted to give equalisation.

Hope that doesn't sound too confusing and that I am seeing this correctly - will be interesting if anyone  sees flaws in my set up.

PS It isn't too difficult in practice!

PPS I've always much preferred using a bottom rope setup to a top rope setup with beginners, much more manageable I think.

In reply to Phil79:

Yep - it was on that climbing at the Dewerstone sign where the little track turned off the main drag up the hill, but was also hidden under a cigarette burn in the plastic sign cover too! It is mentioned on the BMC RAD. 
 

Ooh, the Leviathan tree discussion - hours of popcorn eating fun!! 

I’ve never really understood why folks don’t just add another pitch to top out, instead choosing to ab off an increasingly overused tree. I fear one day there will be no tree to ab off any more, hopefully the last person to use it doesn’t pay too high a price eh!?

In reply to muppetfilter:

Yes, I am well aware of this

Ditto

Great tip, thanks

Understood

I considered your advice and even though, as I as stated, I feel confident at setting up belays when trad leading, I believe that there is little room for ego or complacency on the rock. So after having a chat with a local guide, I booked a half a day 1:1 session covering anchors and ropework to cover the scenarios we are likely to encounter at Dartmoor.

Thank you )

In reply to jezb1:

Thank you, decided on 30m in the end. Not planning on abbing with kids just as yet, so it would be a long time before I would actually need 50m. And I have access to a longer one via a club for trips with adults only.

In reply to muppetfilter:

It's more of an application of existing knowledge to a slightly different situation. I did not want to make any assumptions that it would be a straight "copy and paste" hence seeking advice here. 

Extending over the edge with slings, Rope protection, Anchor Angles , route selection have been covered at length at courses I have attended already. But as you stated, lack of situational experience in my case is something to consider seriously, especially as there are kids involved. 

In reply to JIMBO:

Thank you! Yes, I have a fold out rope bag and a couple of tarps/ikea bags for this purpose.

In reply to Phil79:

Perfect, thank you!

In reply to EddInaBox:

Already on my list, thanks )

In reply to Vigier:

I will try to replicate this setup on the ground and let you know how it went.

Agree, especially with the little ones around.

Extremely grateful to everyone for all advice and taking time to respond. Thank you!!!

In reply to AG1:

I remember ,many years ago, taking 6 kids climbing to a local crag, on my own. I used bottom rope setup with three pairs - all fine. Next to me was a well known local guide with father and son clients. She decided on top rope setup. Although short routes, she was out of sight of her clients and I needed to help them sort themselves out before they felt comfortable starting to climb on her shouted instruction from above.

Lesson learnt.