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if someone wanted to get gritstone offwidth mileage under their belts, what would top recommendations be (apart from the obvious goliath)?
the definition of offwidth here is 'artificially bold without a camalot 4' or scary without a camalot 4 and 5'
the definition of offwidth here is 'artificially bold without a camalot 4' or scary without a camalot 4 and 5'
In reply to AlXN: Elder crack? Isn't there a classic at millstone too?
In reply to Beowulf: That being crewcut.
In reply to AlXN: Right Eliminate at Curbar
In reply to AlXN:
North Climb at Froggat is probably one of the easier ones...
And not as unprotected as some people would have you believe... They just ain't looking.
North Climb at Froggat is probably one of the easier ones...
And not as unprotected as some people would have you believe... They just ain't looking.
Some of these are off-fist, some are off-chimney, but the all feel off-something
Curbar
Sorel's Sorrow
Buckle's Brother
Buckle's Crack
Elder Crack
Left and Right Eliminate
Herculese
Millstone
Shaftsbury Avenue
Crewcut
Estremo
Scrimsel
Burbage
Unfinished Symphony
Nathaniel
***Wall Chimney***
Wednesday Climb
Stanage
Centaur
The Mangler
Additive Chimney
Newstones
The Vixen
The Fox
Hen Cloud
Pete's Back Side
Slimline
Central Climb Direct Start
Main Crack
Roaches
Squash Balls
Elastic Arm
The Big Flake
Communist Crack
Late Night Final
Ramshaw
The Rammer
Crocodile Slot
Right Slot (all boulder probs - See Roaches guide)
Imposition
Ramshaw Crack
Great Zawn
Green Crack
Curbar
Sorel's Sorrow
Buckle's Brother
Buckle's Crack
Elder Crack
Left and Right Eliminate
Herculese
Millstone
Shaftsbury Avenue
Crewcut
Estremo
Scrimsel
Burbage
Unfinished Symphony
Nathaniel
***Wall Chimney***
Wednesday Climb
Stanage
Centaur
The Mangler
Additive Chimney
Newstones
The Vixen
The Fox
Hen Cloud
Pete's Back Side
Slimline
Central Climb Direct Start
Main Crack
Roaches
Squash Balls
Elastic Arm
The Big Flake
Communist Crack
Late Night Final
Ramshaw
The Rammer
Crocodile Slot
Right Slot (all boulder probs - See Roaches guide)
Imposition
Ramshaw Crack
Great Zawn
Green Crack
In reply to AlXN: I did Crewcut a few weeks back - its good. I used my new Rock Empire Pulsar 6 and 7 cams - together they cost less than one Friend 5 and therefore are brilliant. The route is thrutchy but not too desperate.
In reply to AlXN:
The soon to be published Eastern Grit actually has a new symbol to indicate offwidth/awkward/graunchy type of climbs that abound on grit - so that might help too!
Chris
The soon to be published Eastern Grit actually has a new symbol to indicate offwidth/awkward/graunchy type of climbs that abound on grit - so that might help too!
Chris
In reply to TobyA:
uh huh. what are biggest rock empire sizes, then? i'm trying to compare with camalot maximumu sizes.
uh huh. what are biggest rock empire sizes, then? i'm trying to compare with camalot maximumu sizes.
In reply to AlXN:
Full details here http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=126
and a free taster here http://www.rockfax.com/publications/miniguides/item.php?id=127
Chris
Full details here http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=126
and a free taster here http://www.rockfax.com/publications/miniguides/item.php?id=127
Chris
In reply to AlXN:
Get the excellent BMC Staffordshire Guide and enroll in Richie Patterson's Ramshaw Crack School (not all offwidths).
Curbar offwidths: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=183576&v=1#2653183
Get the excellent BMC Staffordshire Guide and enroll in Richie Patterson's Ramshaw Crack School (not all offwidths).
Curbar offwidths: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=183576&v=1#2653183
In reply to AlXN:
See: http://www.walkhigh.co.uk/acatalog/info_579.html
Rock Empire:
6 73-118 mm 12 kN 258 g
7 90-146 mm 12 kN 322 g
Comparable camalots:
#4 Camalot
* Range: 66-115 mm
* Strength: 14 kN
* Weight: 278 g
#5 Camalot
* 85.4-148.5 mm
* 14 kN
* 381 g
I've not checked before against Camalots but I'm now even more impressed with the Rock Empire ones! The are quite a lot lighter for minimal range difference and a huge difference in price. Some places are selling the Camalot 5 70 quid! The camalots may be a bit better - but are they nearly twice as good? I can't believe it.
As I keep using my Pulsars I'll report back on what I think.
> uh huh. what are biggest rock empire sizes, then? i'm trying to compare with camalot maximumu sizes.
See: http://www.walkhigh.co.uk/acatalog/info_579.html
Rock Empire:
6 73-118 mm 12 kN 258 g
7 90-146 mm 12 kN 322 g
Comparable camalots:
#4 Camalot
* Range: 66-115 mm
* Strength: 14 kN
* Weight: 278 g
#5 Camalot
* 85.4-148.5 mm
* 14 kN
* 381 g
I've not checked before against Camalots but I'm now even more impressed with the Rock Empire ones! The are quite a lot lighter for minimal range difference and a huge difference in price. Some places are selling the Camalot 5 70 quid! The camalots may be a bit better - but are they nearly twice as good? I can't believe it.
As I keep using my Pulsars I'll report back on what I think.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Damn, that was a nice little bit of Curbar, the crowds will probably descend now...
Damn, that was a nice little bit of Curbar, the crowds will probably descend now...
In reply to Beowulf:
Crewcut is a layback, but if it wasnt it would be an offwidth.
> (In reply to Beowulf) That being crewcut.
Crewcut is a layback, but if it wasnt it would be an offwidth.
In reply to Al Evans: Isnt the crux of Great Harry at Lawrencefield an offwidth? And has anyone mentioned Giggling Crack at Brimham and Forked Lightning at Heptonstall
In reply to AlXN: Not sure what it is called, but there is a horrendous Severe or something just to the left of Valkierie at Froggat. You make some moves which are pretty hard in the wet up to the offwidth crack. With little or no gear, you have to thrutch up it. Well I did - I hate offwidths!
In reply to AlXN: The only negative I could think of - and its only a potential one - is that the trigger wires are outside of the stem meaning they might more easily get damaged being stuffed in and out of a rucksack. Time will tell on that - although I guess thats true of Friends and my friends are up to 14 years old and still fine!
In reply to Al Evans:
Re Great Harry, the middle section has an offwidth section, but you can climb past without offwidth technique if that makes sense. Maybe why it got upgraded?
J
Re Great Harry, the middle section has an offwidth section, but you can climb past without offwidth technique if that makes sense. Maybe why it got upgraded?
J
In reply to AlXN:
I did Crewcut yesterday, its really good, although I laybacked it. My mate seconding offwidthed it (hes off to yosemite in september) and found it quite hard, shuffling up on heel-toes and double hand/fist jams I think. I used the chockstones for pro and placed one cam as well near the top - but to be honest it would have been easier not to have bothered, I got quite pumped. Also, be aware its well worth the HVS in the definitive guide - as a layback its similar to say altar crack in difficulty, but twice as long (admittedly with a rest ledge half way) and bolder. Also the wall your feet are on is always covered ina thin layer of lichen so its a bit slippery.
I did Crewcut yesterday, its really good, although I laybacked it. My mate seconding offwidthed it (hes off to yosemite in september) and found it quite hard, shuffling up on heel-toes and double hand/fist jams I think. I used the chockstones for pro and placed one cam as well near the top - but to be honest it would have been easier not to have bothered, I got quite pumped. Also, be aware its well worth the HVS in the definitive guide - as a layback its similar to say altar crack in difficulty, but twice as long (admittedly with a rest ledge half way) and bolder. Also the wall your feet are on is always covered ina thin layer of lichen so its a bit slippery.
In reply to grimer at homo:
Anyone would think that was either an obsession or pre-prepared _
My lists are here:
http://www.eee.ntu.ac.uk/offwidth/offwidth_topten.html
Could add the finish to Kneewrecker Chimney in the Churnett
Anyone would think that was either an obsession or pre-prepared _
My lists are here:
http://www.eee.ntu.ac.uk/offwidth/offwidth_topten.html
Could add the finish to Kneewrecker Chimney in the Churnett
In reply to Si dH:
Its VS and its easier adjectivally to offwidth the start to get some high gear (big cam) before pulling out to layback. The friction is fine.
Its VS and its easier adjectivally to offwidth the start to get some high gear (big cam) before pulling out to layback. The friction is fine.
In reply to Offwidth:
grey slab at frogatt is worth considering
grey slab at frogatt is worth considering
In reply to AlXN:
Crack of Doom at Wharncliffe! - http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=12 If you can fit in it I wouldn't bother with gear and a harness.
Crack of Doom at Wharncliffe! - http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=12 If you can fit in it I wouldn't bother with gear and a harness.
In reply to Offwidth:
I would agree with Si, you have to be careful where you put your feet because at least when I was there a month ago it was all rather green. I don't know when you last did it. I could imagine that with more ascents through a summer it cleans up a bit. Its fine at VS if you have big cams but would be rather scary at the grade without.
> The friction is fine.
I would agree with Si, you have to be careful where you put your feet because at least when I was there a month ago it was all rather green. I don't know when you last did it. I could imagine that with more ascents through a summer it cleans up a bit. Its fine at VS if you have big cams but would be rather scary at the grade without.
In reply to AlXN:you've probably alredy done it mate, or at least someone's probably already mentioned it, but hollyash crack is a very pleasant VS with an off-width section, at burbage north.
In reply to TobyA:
I'll check when I did Crew Cut but I think it was close to winter. Some peak laybacks are polished to a sheen this isnt; some have foot holds that slope away, this doesn't. The friction isnt as good as grit can be but with tidy technique (no overstretching on low foot placements) there shouldnt be a problem. I expected it to be harder than it was and would grade it similar to Alter Crack (which has the advantages of more conventional pro)
Grades have to be for a route being in condition and with the proper gear required or obviously it will feel harder (if its damp offwidth it!). It is worrying without a monster cam as the bottom chockstone moves so the VS grade would need a disclaimer for this.
Its now my Millstone cover shot since an update this spring:
http://www.eee.ntu.ac.uk/offwidth/millstone.html
I'll check when I did Crew Cut but I think it was close to winter. Some peak laybacks are polished to a sheen this isnt; some have foot holds that slope away, this doesn't. The friction isnt as good as grit can be but with tidy technique (no overstretching on low foot placements) there shouldnt be a problem. I expected it to be harder than it was and would grade it similar to Alter Crack (which has the advantages of more conventional pro)
Grades have to be for a route being in condition and with the proper gear required or obviously it will feel harder (if its damp offwidth it!). It is worrying without a monster cam as the bottom chockstone moves so the VS grade would need a disclaimer for this.
Its now my Millstone cover shot since an update this spring:
http://www.eee.ntu.ac.uk/offwidth/millstone.html
In reply to Offwidth:
Whe nI did Crewcut yesterday it was bone dry but because of the permanent thin layer of lichen the friction is a lot less than somethign like altar crack. Difficulty is similar I agree but its both longer and bolder. There is a little polish on one or two of the better smears but not enough to realyl affect the climbing - the lichen is much more of a problem.
Whe nI did Crewcut yesterday it was bone dry but because of the permanent thin layer of lichen the friction is a lot less than somethign like altar crack. Difficulty is similar I agree but its both longer and bolder. There is a little polish on one or two of the better smears but not enough to realyl affect the climbing - the lichen is much more of a problem.
In reply to Si dH:
Difficulty is up a bit for the lower layback but you get a full midway rest on Crew Cut and some useful holds that you dont expect from below. You only get a half-rest on Alter Crack. The lichen is there but its not that bad; plus on such a pure parallel crack with a layback one foot should be pretty much flat on the rock hence I dont see friction being a big issue (unless you make it so by bad technique or worrying)
Difficulty is up a bit for the lower layback but you get a full midway rest on Crew Cut and some useful holds that you dont expect from below. You only get a half-rest on Alter Crack. The lichen is there but its not that bad; plus on such a pure parallel crack with a layback one foot should be pretty much flat on the rock hence I dont see friction being a big issue (unless you make it so by bad technique or worrying)
In reply to Offwidth:
Of course friction is an issue on any layback. Im not sayign its anythign like bad enough that it makes it veyr hard but the better the friction is, the easier the layback - its a continuous variation.
I didnt use any rest on altar crack, just went ofr it all the way. The distance between rests on crewcut is similar to the total length of altar crack (at least the layback bit of it).
Of course friction is an issue on any layback. Im not sayign its anythign like bad enough that it makes it veyr hard but the better the friction is, the easier the layback - its a continuous variation.
I didnt use any rest on altar crack, just went ofr it all the way. The distance between rests on crewcut is similar to the total length of altar crack (at least the layback bit of it).
In reply to Si dH: The talk of laybacks reminds me that the lower section of Goliaths Groove is an offwidth, the top is a layback
In reply to Al Evans:
The start of Goliaths Groove is also VS (5a) with bomber pro and knee locks but many people claim its a desperate HVS as they cant deal with the technique Often they bridge up with no runners at something nearer to E1 5a.
In reply to SidH
As I said earlier if you layback properley your feet wont slip, its either false perception or bad technique. The layback on Crew Cut is only longer if you refuse to offwidth up a bit first to place gear comfortbly and reduce the strain on your arms. I have the same problem with David getting HVS I dont mind if you insist on using a strenuous insecure variation but grade for the easier way.
The start of Goliaths Groove is also VS (5a) with bomber pro and knee locks but many people claim its a desperate HVS as they cant deal with the technique Often they bridge up with no runners at something nearer to E1 5a.
In reply to SidH
As I said earlier if you layback properley your feet wont slip, its either false perception or bad technique. The layback on Crew Cut is only longer if you refuse to offwidth up a bit first to place gear comfortbly and reduce the strain on your arms. I have the same problem with David getting HVS I dont mind if you insist on using a strenuous insecure variation but grade for the easier way.
In reply to Offwidth:
There are 3 sections to crewcut - the first is a short awkward bit past a bulge whihc actually I bridged in pockets, and the upper two sections are eminently easier to layback. Just taking these into account (ignoringthe bottom section) the length of laybacking is twice that of altar crack I reckon.
There are 3 sections to crewcut - the first is a short awkward bit past a bulge whihc actually I bridged in pockets, and the upper two sections are eminently easier to layback. Just taking these into account (ignoringthe bottom section) the length of laybacking is twice that of altar crack I reckon.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Do we need such a symbol? Why can't climbers simply stand under a route a look at it?
Come to think of it, are any of the symbols worth having as they appear very subjective to me? For instance 'pumpy' to one climber may not be to another and the 'flutter' symbol is even more subjective: define 'scary'? I know people who get gripped when the runner goes below chin height! Others may solo at their leading limit...
I'm not knocking the guides as it would be hypocritical of me: I have two of them. However does this 'precision' defining of routes not sanitize climbing a bit too much? Is it not sufficient to merely have a grade and an inkling of where the route goes, rather than breaking down a route into a mere joining of the dots? Just my thoughts.
> a new symbol to indicate offwidth/awkward/graunchy type of climbs that abound on grit
Do we need such a symbol? Why can't climbers simply stand under a route a look at it?
Come to think of it, are any of the symbols worth having as they appear very subjective to me? For instance 'pumpy' to one climber may not be to another and the 'flutter' symbol is even more subjective: define 'scary'? I know people who get gripped when the runner goes below chin height! Others may solo at their leading limit...
I'm not knocking the guides as it would be hypocritical of me: I have two of them. However does this 'precision' defining of routes not sanitize climbing a bit too much? Is it not sufficient to merely have a grade and an inkling of where the route goes, rather than breaking down a route into a mere joining of the dots? Just my thoughts.
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