UKH

Curious how US crack grades measure up as I've never done one, I gather the general picture is gnarly...

Someone on logbooks suggested Fessura Kosterlitz (f6B) is 5.10, would that be a,b,c or d? or harden up and call it 5.9?

Wouldn't argue with E2 6a in our money (bouldery start eases after 3 moves)

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/109061304/fessura-kosterlitz

Cool! does that settle it or are the yanks as open to grade arguments as we are?

I've no idea! You've presumably noticed that a couple of people rated it 5.11c. I wondered whether the 5.10c rating might have arisen as the standard translation from F6a+, after a failure to realise that its f6A+ bouldering grade is actually a completely different animal. John Sirois' comment - "The 2012 Valle dell'Orco guide suggests this is a 6b (V4) boulder problem, not a 6b (10c) route. Consider bumping the route grade to 11c or so." - possibly supports this theory.

Tom thought it was HVS 5b, as far as I recall! 

Isn't it 1 move to get a locker hand jam for your height/hand size? I felt for Ali, because for her it rapidly widened from locker hands to wide hands and then fists whereas for me there was probably 1 thin hands move and then things got better...

I did it in a few goes, and at the same time I was doing other Orco 6bs, longer ones, sometimes first or second go but some I probably failed on completely. That would suggest Fr6b is a reasonable comparison in the "how many goes" yardstick.

It's obviously difficult comparing something so short when most things I've actually done in yds have been longer and more sustained, but it's not equivalent to things a good number grade more than I managed there even if the individual moves are perhaps harder. It definitely isn't equivalent of doing an 11c (6c+/E4?)! I suspect people grading it 11c haven't done it and are working from a conversion table that isn't really working. The finger crack on the next boulder down gets 6c+ doesn't it and that's a whole different ball game.

Hazarding a guess I would have said E1 5c (is it harder than Stroof? I don't really recall. Or those peak hvs 5b/c horrors everyone falls off?) or the equivalent of about 10b/c insofar as you could give a route grade to a boulder problem? But I am guessing many years after the fact. And of course the grade you can do in a few goes could translate to quite a different onsight grade for 2 different things.

But it's still not 11c

Edit: just noticed one of the 11c commenters has done it... Even more bizarre. Genuinely puzzled by that. 

HVS felt about right. 

In the states it wouldn't get more than 5.9.

I soloed it onsight, I don't solo 5.11c!

Probably 5.10 ish but as always with cracks hand size determines the precise difficulty. Larger hands definitely an advantage after the start. Anyway, solo it if you are confident, lead if unsure or top rope if you are starting to learn how to jam. 

I just don’t think YDS grades work for bouldery things.  They use them for bouldering at Mt Woodson where things like Hamburger Crack get 5.10b (gritstone 5a maybe) and I’ve onsighted 11a (maybe V5?).  11a on a real crag like Suicide is often implausibly nails even on a top rope. It’s just not comparable (which is presumably why most places use V grades.

Yeah I suspect your right

In reply to others above I had no idea anyone thought it 5.11! maybe makes sense if you grade for hardest moves not the route as a whole? but with a route-as-a-whole mindset I'd put it at E2 (or nails E1 - I reckon anyone calling HVS is either showing off or has very conveniently sized hands - I suspect Tom was in his suddenly-climbing-rather-well phase and underestimating his own ability! I'm not in great shape at the moment but still not terrible at jams, and Kosterlitz was an education for sure).

I guess the question I'm really asking is if I went to the states one day to climb mid 5.10s would I find the cruxes easier than the start of this? and the answer thankfully does appear to be yes..?

I think that would depend on where you went and what style of climbing.  5.10 can feel ridiculously hard, especially on slabs, but it's also quite inconsistent.  I recently top roped an 11c (by the skin of my teeth) while I couldn't do the 11a next to it all (as in I couldn't even see how it was done, even hanging on the rope). 

That's about what I thought. It would certainly be no harder than 5.9 stateside.

E2 6a is a bonkers suggestion!

Tom did a few weeks in Yosemite remember back in the day and retained an interest in jamming afterwards.

My very limited experience would suggest that yes mid 10s would have easier cruxes unless they were themselves very bouldery! 

Edit: to Dave Garnett's point, I'm assuming you mean equivalent style i.e. mid10s cracks.

Perhaps the contributors to this thread deserve a share of a Nobel Prize?

Comparing to The Vice on Stanage which is HVS, Kosterlitz is significantly easier. 

Well it's pretty middle of the road between your HVS and the 11c two people suggested on mountainproject...

Sweet! added to my ticklist... though I have to say I don't really find grit jams very comparable to granite splitters as there is so much more friction on the grit (for feet too)

PS ukc has the vice at E1 and plenty of people seem to vote E2 but tradition dictates you should never on any account acknowledge the original grade may need revision to fit current standards

No, it's not. Classic E2 6a's like Easy Pickings would easily be 5.11c.

The YDS, apart from being useless in the first place, suffers from the defect that it is interpreted in widely different ways in widely different places.

In my experience, 5.10 hand cracks have cruxes very significantly easier than the average tough gritstone HVS. Their difficulty arises from the fact that they have literally thirty of these cruxes in a row with no rest in between. The difference in opinion about the present grade derives from the fact that some parts of the US stick to the original idea that the YDS is the hardest move, whereas others have bowed to reality, although not always with regard to cracks.

jcm

I don't think trying to average grades from two different systems is going to be of much use in getting an accurate grade!

Can't imagine why anyone would think 11c for it.

I don't think even Americans can make up their minds on how to grade things like this. The Joshua Tree classic splitter O'Kelly's Crack has a boulder problem start much harder than the rest of the route. I'm sure it's 5.10c in the guide, but MP gives it 5.11a, taking the start into account.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105722353/okelleys-crack

I didn't know he was a Nobel prize winner (or climber) until I visited the Nobel Museum in Stockholm.  There was a display dedicated to him with a old Cloggy Guide that he had donated which caught my eye. There is also a photo of him in Hard Rock on Gormenghast.

Fair!

In all of this grade discussion let's not lose sight of the fact that it is just a really really fun problem!

About a hundred years ago I used to run into him occasionally when we climbed on the Bournbrook (cricket pitch) wall at Birmingham University.

For my money something like Generic Crack in the Creek is harder than the Kosterlitz even though it's only 5.9/.10a, because the Kosterlitz really isn't that cruxy/bouldery, it's easily flashable if you get established correctly (which I didn't on my first try...) and it's short and the jams are about as bomber as Generic Crack, but the latter is what, 30m long and really pumpy! IMO Incastromania in Orco is also harder or perhaps equivalent at 6a. But maybe that's because as a boulderer I tend to struggle on endurance routes.

Anyway I don't think it makes much sense to give the Kosterlitz a YDS (ie, route) grade (apples and oranges), so here's a different take: if I had to compare the Kosterlitz with the crack climbs I've done in Font (stop laughing, there are some), I've struggled much more on some 6as which tend to have much less straightforward jamming. It's not much harder than Crash Crack (5+) at Maunoury or even la Fissure des boulangers (4) at Diplodocus. So, maybe V2/3 rather?

(Of course none of this obscures the fact that it is an EXCELLENT climb!)

It was six years ago so it's best to go by my notes not my rose-tinted memory; they do indeed say HVS 5b.  Isn't it a 5b/5c boulder problem followed by some 4c jamming, at least for my medium sized hands? Given that I walked up and on-sight soloed it without a mat (when I was leading E2 cracks) then I'd say HVS is as high as the adjectival grade can be.

If the question is what grade would this exact route get in Yosemite then the answer is probably 5.9 in all honesty. If the question is what grade would a route get that were fairly sustained at the standard of the starting move then the answer is 5.10c or 5.10d like Serenity Crack (5.10d).

Fissure du Panetton (6c+) about 100m further down the road is definitely a route not a boulder problem and a whole different kettle of fish.