UKH

So, when climbing multi pitch my partner and I are quite keen on a direct belay to bring up the second, Scafell seems covered in these lovely belay spots that seem ideal to hill out, pop the shoes off and have a drink whilst bringing up the second. When the second arrives at the stance, we normally tie off the plate whilst sorting gear then the belayer takes the seconds belay device and put them "on belay", then the second/new leader unties the guide mode device, pops it on their harness and leads off. So far, so good.

However, when we were tying off the guide mode device, it became apparent that we didn't know which way round the ropes were as they had been tied off on the device, so when you put the leader "on belay", with the tied off device between the new leader and the belayer, when the guide mode device was removed the ropes would be twisted between leader and belayer. Not the end of the world but it can be a pain and seems like something solvable.

Any ideas?

Not totally sure I understand your description.  However, why not put the ropes into the second plate, correctly, before tying off the independent plate?

I thought that having read it back, sorry! It's similar to the section B Trading Plates in section 24 of this: https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm but this shows the climber clove hitching/using a PAS/Sling to clip to the anchor whereas we were just tieng the plate off.

I want to take my hands off to put the ropes into the second plate so want the guide mode device tied off prior to letting go. (I know the whole point of guide mode is that it autolocks but I like redundancy)

I don't ask from experience and I'm not motivated enough to find a belay device and rope to find out, but...are you not able to keep control of the ropes to a satisfactory degree while you put the new plate on?

Can you not just untie the tie off on the guide mode plate to put the second plate on? In guide mode it's 'autolocking' and you'll have hands on the dead rope anyway to put the plate on.

Just clip in and then move the original belay plate to your harness to then belay normally?

The ropes can't get twisted then and everyone keeps their own plate at all times, also tying off a belay plate properly is loads faffier than just popping a clove hitch on one of their ropes. I'd always avoid a sling or PAS, you're already tied in and have a whole rack to sort, why add extra faff into the mix?

Not sure I completely understand the situation, but... Is the problem that in the act of tying off the plate it becomes unclear whether there are twists in the rope? If that is the case, you could try just tying off one strand rather than both, should leave things quite clear, though is a bit less safe/redundant I suppose.

Quite a good simple solution actually!

Leader sets their guide plate intentionally backwards with the teeth facing towards the cliff and belays the second up.

second reaches the stance. BFK on dead side of rope if needed. Leader takes the seconds belay plate.

Leader puts second on belay using the second belay plate above the BFK to avoid tangles. Or untie the BFK since you’re holding the rope.

Second removes the guide plate and takes this to use at the top of the next pitch and climbs off, on belay since the plates were swapped.

Guaranteed tangle free. 

Rope twisting is not solvable - relates to stance logistics. Multipitch demands a lot of patience sorting ropes. Just be ready to untie one and untwist at start of new lead. If you work on extra vigilance it will take up as much time as no-vigilance with untwist.

This is exactly what we do but......

We are currently putting the second on belay by putting the belay plate on the "dead side" of the BFK, but when undoing the BFK, the ropes are sometimes twisted. What are we doing wrong?

See edit above for correction. You can untie the BFK because you’re now holding the rope.

Thanks for all the replies. The system, (as described far better then I could by LucaC) is very simple, quick and works for us. The only draw back was that it seemed pot luck as to whether the ropes twisted or not, hence solving that issue would leave us with our utopian belay regime!

My usual go-to is to get the second to attach themselves directly to the belay when they arrive at the stance. Then just take them off belay and set up the new one as normal

That was my thinking. Is it any more work for the second to clove hitch into the anchor for a moment than it is to tie off your belay plate?

Two options - second ties in with a sling, and then just move the plate over.

Or, no need for a big knot - it's in guide plate mode anyway.  Take the second's plate, and use it on the dead rope to give them a belay as the new leader.  Sort the gear out with the new leader still attached to the original guide mode belay.  When they're ready to go, remove the guide mode plate and off they go, taking the guide plate with them.

Once your second is re-racked and ready to lead off, if you untie the BFK behind the guide plate, then it's clear which way round the ropes are and you you can put your belay plate on the dead end of the rope without a twist. You're holding onto the rope at this point (coming out the back of the guide plate) so you no longer need the knot. 

I wonder how many times the leader would realise they'd forgotten a belay plate and end up muntering the second up with option 2? For me, probably a lot!

If it's your normal belay changeover, you'll quickly learn! 

Seeing as they're the one who takes it off - unlikely.  More likely to have left it at home (naming no names)

Not sure I fully understand. I assume you are using twin or half ropes and the "twist" you are referring to in between the two strands.  Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me to be obvious how to thread the belay plate for the new leader if the ropes are running straight out of the direct belay.  That being the case, it sounds as if you might be twisting the ropes because the tie-off hides which strand is on which side.  If that's the case, the solution would be to first undo the tie off (the direct belay plate is still locked) and, with the tie-off knot out of the way, thread the belay plate for the leader with the strands coming nice and parallel out of the fixed-point belay plate.

You could tie the second off with a clove hitch, to the belay, in one or both ropes. If only in one, clip the other rope through the same carabiner to keep things neat. While they're sorting the rack, you put them on lead belay using the original guide mode device. No need to swap devices. Should be easy to follow the ropes from climber to clove hitch then get them on tangle free.

A few of my climbing partners don't like using guide mode, so I've never tried the "taking the other belay device" method. That said, I've used guide mode for years and never had any concern about it "not locking", in fact, is it even possible? I think it would need something stuck between the device and the krab. I suppose it could happen.

I try to set it up at a length that I can stand up and put them on lead without having to get them to tie-in with a sling.

Tempted to try using a microtraxion to save energy though! Guide mode belaying on long pitches is all wasted effort. 

All it takes is for one or both of the climbers to sit down then get up the other way, or turn around. Easy to get on to the stance and rotate to the left to sit down then get up rotating to the left to stand up. You got yourself a twist 

Another option is the Kong Gigi if you've not tried it. Can get one for less than a tenner.

Assuming by tying off you mean setting hitches around al the strands, would it be easier to keep the line of the ropes clear if you just tied an overhand on the brake side of the rope from the plate?

Again, appreciate the feedback. I think we are being too belt and braces and the fact we are holding the dead end to re-belay the leader means we CAN remove the BFK prior to adding the new belay device and as such can see if the rope are twisted or not! Simple.