UKH

Had a first visit to the recently bolted Silverdale Sea cliffs today. The only 'guide' that I am aware of are the routes/sectors listed on UKC. Is there a topo available for these crags? Thanks. Silverdale Sea Cliffs

Yes - a free PDF.  I’ll send it at the weekend

Probably out of date already? I watched another crag further north being developed last week.

Excited for a seacliff "hit" within reach of home and compatible with current restrictions - please can I have a topo too  

If you need somewhere to post it online I'll be happy to stick it on www.rockaroundtheworld.co.uk but equally happy NOT TO if you'd rather. 

Cheers, Dom 

Having been for a look (but not climbed on them) the other day i must caution you against using the word cliffs for something that appears on average 5m high.

They will provide a fun diversion on a sunny Winter's day ( i live 20 mins away) so i'm not complaining, i think it's great they've put the effort in, but dominic o wanting a 'sea cliff hit' over Winter maybe slightly disappointed.......

Could I grab a copy too please?

Bolts?

Is the crag, cough sea cliffs, bolted now?

I'm guessing one bolt then lower off point?

The routes we did were 3 bolts then a lower off.

Don't confuse these with Jack Scout. The new stuff is further north either side of the Cove and north of the shore carpark (what's left of it). The newest stuff is going in almost under the caravans at Far Arnside.

The topo for these cliffs came to my attention earlier this week.

Most of the rock is poor; all of it is short. And it's an ecologically sensitive area of national importance. Yet, we have respected climbers in their late middle age, fresh back from their retirement holidays in Spain, lobbing bolts into it.

I'm not in the loop about the discussions - or lack of - that have taken place (and frankly don't care) and I doubt this is a popular view given the reactionary flavour of public opinion, but I'm deeply disappointed by this bolting.

Historically, the Lancashire Rock guide has advised against climbing on these cliffs. More importantly, we have a climate emergency and unprecedented extinction events happening in front of our eyes. And, weighing all of this in hand, the response of these boomers is to "develop" an important site of our dwindling biodiversity, despite it being acknowledged by most people that the climbing there is middling to crap.

Bra-fcking-vo. Really well played.
 

I know nothing about this crag but from looking at the UKC photos of the crag, it's hard to immediately see how these (admittedly not very inspiring) climbs will have any significant impact on ecology or indeed the climate emergency - particularly as by their very nature they won't top out into the vegetated sections. Can you be more specific about what the issue is? 

Cheers,
D.

It's hard to see what is reactionary other than your response. Negligible environmental impact,  and I suspect that the availability of sports climbing closer to home is going to ultimately reduce the desire to fly for short overseas climbing trips. 

Looking at the photos i dont see many people cancelling their  annual trip to El Chorro in favour of climbing at El Silverdale!

Rename it Silverado?

I wouldn't get too excited about it Dominic! By the way remember me to the Rucksackers who remember me as a lapsed member - not a long list I'm afraid.

Although Silverdale is an important habitat for sea birds it is more the mud flats and inland estutuarys that make this area important. The cliffs do hold rare plants but these are not on any of the developed areas.

Also no vegitation has been removed from any of the cliffs, there is very little anyway and the cliffs where developed, are not used by nesting birds. 

My comment was slightly tongue in cheek, but there will be a few occasions where people stay local for sport rather than travelling- a counter to the predicted environmental destruction caused by a few bolts

I agree, Pete. I've chatted to two of the developers and they are both well known and respected climbers who are well aware of the environmental sensitivity of the area. The rock isn't great (apart from the odd bit) but they've avoided the Lancaster whitebeam which is the main thing. I've not seen anything untoward. I reckon, given how things are panning out in the Dales, that they'll prove to be very popular. If so, then the occupants of the Holgates caravans above may get to hear a few choice profanities as they lounge on their decking.

Please could I also grab a pdf

Thank you

I find it ironic that some are calling this environmentally irresponsible for this area when there are big unsightly caravan sites with decking et al plonked there and failing to comment on that instead of a few bolts on shitty rock? I know which I'd consider less environmentally damaging!

Hi Derek

Could you send me the pdf as well please.

Thanks

Chris

We went there a while back and luckily got the chance to talk to the developers, who were very helpful and friendly and get a topo. The routes were enjoyable enough but there are very short as others have said and we probably wouldn’t go climbing there again. Some of the lower-offs are at the top of the crag where it did look like some vegetation cleaning had taken place which I hope was done carefully. I think the endless stream of dog walkers on the sands is probably much more disruptive to wildlife though. 

What did concern me was talk of bolting Jack Scout which I would not support at all. 

Really? I've not heard of any talk of retro bolting here. There are some bolted lower offs and one (last time I saw) bolt runner on an E2 but that's all. The developers I spoke to made no mention of this.

Yes. I used to volunteer with the AONB Unit and we used to sometimes work on the main Holgates site doing conservation work in the wooded areas there. That changed when they rode rough-shod over the planning procedure after they bought and developed another site near their Far Arnside site. Unless things have changed in the last few years the AONB Unit still don't work with them. They developed the old childrens' holiday camp with 'exclusive' cabins directly above where some of the routes now are - I see friction ahead if things get heated on the crag. Some of their Far Arnside statics loom right over the cliff edge when they could have been kept a few metres back and at least been screened from sight when walking along the shore.

Many thanks Derek. We really enjoyed our visit yesterday. A fantastic setting and the routes were entertaining. Looking forward to another visit soon.

By the way remember me to the Rucksackers who remember me as a lapsed member - not a long list I'm afraid.

Always a warm welcome for a returning prodigal son (or daughter for that matter!) 

Thats rather an Anthropogenic stand point, as only humans would care about visual impact. But could someone please send me the PDF, thanks very much.

Is it not that they have dug up the coastal heathland and concreted over it so that the caravans have a nice flat area to go on. But yes what an eyesore!

Hey they look rubbish, but never mind. Now about that pdf, could you fix that for me, pretty please XXX

Nice one. I like Silverdale 👍 I first climbed there about 40+ years ago. There weren't many tin huts then and they haven't dissuaded me from returning to the area despite the proliferation. However there was evidence of pegs along the sea cliffs. No one seemed bothered then.

So thanks to the developers who ever you are. Good job lads

As a little aside I've climbed at El Choro on two occasions. It's horrible.

'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder'

Can I borrow your topo Barn Owl?

I

I have sent out e-copies of the PDF to people who DM'd me.  However, I can't do this in a response on the thread (or directly using the UKC email system) as it doesn't allow attachments.

DM if you would like one, though hope I don't get buried in requests! 

Having been involved in the original development of Jack Scout Cove, I remember walking along the coast to Arnside and deciding that it was all too small!  How times change.  

Who actually sanctions such developments on AONB's? I thought that it was illegal even to leave litter in AONB's. Or is their Tier 1, 2 and 3 litter? If I decide I want to go and put bolts into the AONB's near me, can I just do that without consulting others? Or would the praise I receive on UKC for doing so outweigh the other considerations?

Are you being sarcastic, John? It's difficult to get your drift purely on an internet thread. If not, I'm afraid you'd really have to contact the various landowners eg RSPB, NT in the main. As I think you know, AONBs function largely like national parks. I've no idea who or if the developers have consulted anyone at all. All the crags rise straight out of tidal mud and sand so the landowner at the top and below could be different. This made it interesting back in 2001 when I was trying to get access at Jack Scout during the foot and mouth epidemic.

Natural England has a statutory oversight of AONBs (and can designate new ones) but the are basically ru by local authorities and NPs. They're pretty toothless though and rely on planning controls to conserve landscape. 

The RSPB own the bottom and the national trust the top. We did wonder whether either had been consulted, will find out 

This may be the case for the routes south of the Cove. It would be different north of it though? Above the cave at the Cove are private houses but I'd be surprised if their properties go right to the cliff edge. Moving north again from the Cove you start to get the new, swanky lodges at Holgates, then there's a break in the cliffs where the road is right by the shore. The latest developments north again have pastureland above. I wouldn't be surprised if RSPB claim the cliffs themselves right the way along. At Red Rake there might be an issue - I think I read somewhere that it's a SSSI but I'm not sure. There was once a short iron working in the cleft and the mineralisation is interesting.

Hi Derek - could I have the pdf too please?

Thanks, Joe

Apparently climbing in the UK has degenerated to such a sad state that people value being able to bimble around with the relative safety of bolts over all else. Consultation, debate, conservation, the effect on other users, the effect on other access agreements - all of no concern. Nor even that the climbing is poor quality. Don't worry, Pete Gunn assures us that the blocks they crowbarred off, vegetation that was removed, holes that were drilled and the extra footfall this will create will have a negligible impact. And I'm sure he's an expert on invetebrates, rare cliff-dwelling plants, salt marsh grasses and geodiversity. So, let's join the party and start dogging our way up this glorious 6m choss!

I agree with you. I think climbers need to be more self-critical about their activities than many now seem to be; and the same goes for all outdoor users including, walkers and cyclists. 

One of the problems on these forums is false dichotomies. If you criticise "sport" climbers, many presume you are a "trad climber" and that you never "sport" climb, or if you criticise cyclists you are a car driver only or a walker only with an antipathy towards cyclists. But most of us are car drivers, walkers and cyclists; "trad" climbers and "sport" climbers. If I have criticised "sport" climbers recently, and not "trad" climbers it is because I think there has been much more to be critical of, whereas the top climbers putting up "trad" climbs today seem to be continuing that tradition in an admirable fashion. It is the contempt of the bolt-anywhere brigade and their lack of consultation of others (and I mean all others, not just climbers) that is really bothering me - particularly this bolting of AONBs and beach cliffs in remote places, and the retro-bolting of crags that were definitely regarded as off-limits to bolters in the past. If this new "tradition" continues, every bit of rock in the UK is going to end up littered with metal that has been put there by climbers. And it is not just the contempt for the environment that should be concerning, but the undermining of the challenge of rock-climbing itself: what one might call a Grylling of climbing.

I have skin in both games (thanks for the topo Derek).

I too have done some work with the AONB - I can point you to some of my drystone walling above Jack Scout and bits of fencing/gates on Warton hill and around. I think it's important to be a good citizen as a climber but also confess to the odd moment of 'better to ask for forgiveness than permission'. I haven't been to the new bits of Silverdale but interested to take a look.

Not replying to OP more a general muse - I remember trying to explain to a non-climber why SSSIs like Malham cove were covered in drilled holes and bits of metal. TBH I was struggling...

Well. I think you're being far too over reactive. I was involved in conservation work in the AONB for almost 20 years until 2017 when I changed jobs. I am not any kind of sport advocate - in fact you might recall my forthright opinions on what has been going on in the Dales when there was a thread earlier this year. Wrong on lots of levels eg retroing good trad without any reference to anyone else, let alone FAs. From what I've seen on the Silverdale shore cliffs nothing untoward has happened. A small amount of rock has been removed from a previously unclimbed crag and very little vegetation touched. I walked along underneath yesterday and did not witness environmental destruction. In my humble opinion they've produced a viable option from very unlikely material. If they'd got stuck into Jack Scout that would be totally unacceptable. The two developers I spoke to are both very active and experienced climbers who I'm sure will have weighed up the environmental effects. I don't know if they checked the situation with anyone. As they are on a previously unclimbed crag then I don't think consulting other climbers was necessary. Landowners?  If they didn't then the RSPB/NT may possibly take action?

Now, as for pandering to climbers who want a safe and easy life that's another thing. I've seen queues at nondescript sport crags and tumbleweeds blowing past great trad crags in the Dales.

Karl

Like I said before, I'm sure the 120 + static caravan site situated directly above the cliffs has done way more damage to the environment than a handfull of bolts will ever do.

Hi

I would appreciate a copy of this topo. If you could forward a copy it would be great.

Thank you in anticipation

IAN KNIGHT

You can justify almost anything like that.

Yes, the perfect solution is to build a skyscraper there. Then you will notice neither the caravans nor the bolts!

It's called whataboutery. I looked it up and it's a word.

It appears that no permission was sought and the community is increasingly concerned about the issue. Maybe best to refrain from climbing there for the time being

Frankly I’m shocked at this, it sets a very dangerous precedent in such a sensitive area and reflects very badly on the climbing community. 

Do you know who 'the community' is and what their concerns are? It might just be an unfamiliarity with climbers and their activities. It can't be the numbers. Back in the summer there were huge numbers of the public out on the sands immediately by the crags and no concerns there.

I’ve held back from commenting on this hoping those who developed these new routes would pop up and confirm they consulted the landowners and authorities. But they haven’t. Instead all we’ve got is shifting justifications from other climbers.

”negligible environmental impact “

”no vegitation has been removed”

”they've avoided the Lancaster whitebeam which is the main thing”

”it did look like some vegetation cleaning had taken place which I hope was done carefully”

”A small amount of rock has been removed from a previously unclimbed crag and very little vegetation touched”...

However experienced as climbers the developers are, it looks as if they took no heed of this area’s status as an AONB- designated not least for its geology.  It may also fall in the Morecambe Bay SSSI. Nearby at Woodwell, the BMC negotiated access with the NT who were concerned about the ecological impact of climbing. 

I’ve walked and run past these “cliffs” for 25 years and never once fancied climbing them. They are small problems in every sense- everyone’s got bigger things to worry about just now. But if climbers act high-handedly like this it makes it harder for us to argue for access where it really does matter.

Richard 

Please Richard can you explain how the protection afforded to these cliffs by dint of them being in an AONB, is different from that afforded to the huge numbers of crags in our nearby national parks? I'm thinking of the thousands of gardened trad and sport routes on hundreds of crags. Malham is a SSSI and yet no outcry. If it's OK there why not here?

The facts:

2015 - I started top roping in the Red Gully which is in full view of the path. No comments.

2016 - I emailed the National Trust regarding climbing at The Cove. No response.

2017 - Belay bolts were placed in Los Huecos and Pillar areas for top roping and the area was used regularly. No negative response.

2018 - Los Huecos and Pillar were fully equipped and local climbers started climbing the routes regularly. No negative response.

An employee of the AONB started climbing there; no negative response. We received information from a senior National Trust employee that the land ownership in the Cove area was ambiguous.

2019 - A couple more sectors were equipped. No negative response.

2020 - More areas have been equipped and a topo has been published. Distribution was limited to manage visitor numbers. The topo is displayed in the local pub and cafe via a QR code. Still no negative response from any of the local agencies.

Neither Pete Whillance or I have received any negative comments from visiting climbers or passing walkers. There have been 1000s this year. The climbing is short but great fun and has become a valuable local amenity.

It’s a fair question. While I’ve climbed my share of green grot, I enjoy clean(ed) rock as much as any of us.  And Andy Hyslop’s reply puts the whole thing in a clearer light. 

My worry was specifically about new development, especially in such a visible spot. There are new threats to access, with talk of criminalising trespass- not directly relevant here it’s true.  But I think as climbers and users of the outdoors generally we need to avoid providing excuses to those who would like to take away our access rights. There’s a danger your reasonable question- if not here, why (eg) Malham - could be turned back on us to challenge existing access.  And while the RSPB have proved more sympathetic to climbers than many of us feared when they first took over the management of climbing areas in the Peak, they clearly have different priorities.
Andy’s “no negative response” isn’t quite the same as consulting other interests, but it’s close! Thanks to him for the detailed response, and next time I’m there I’ll try and see what I’ve been missing. 
 

Richard

To give a bit more info to the area there are already many other established crags offering trad, sport and bouldering, probably the best known being Trowbarrow, there are 13 developed crags and 4 that are bolted, Jack Scout although a trad crag has bolt lower offs and belays at the top of the crag to help protect the rare trees and vegitation above. There are at least 7 holiday parks and camp sites within the Silverdale and Arnside area, some of which are quite vast with over 200 mobile homes. One of the sites lies directly above one of the bolted cliffs with balconnines quite literally overhanging the cliff. There are 4 quarries, 1 of which is still in operation and operated by Tarmac for asphalt aggregates, oh and an 18 hole golf course. All within the 75km2 area. 

The Lancashire Coast path AKA the England Coast Path appears to run along the bottom so the cliff may well be within the, effectively open, access corridor within which climbing is a permitted activity. Don't quote me on it though. 

Yes, there’s the dilemma- outstanding natural beauty leads to popularity, which leads to... caravan parks. My mother-in-law had one of those “cabins”: I’m not a fan of the site owners. And the golf course is a SSSI, bafflingly.

It really is not close at all ! It's more akin to "I haven't been rumbled yet"

This thread like the majority on UKC is just inane. Progressing from a request for a topo it has escalated to the upper oflevels  beaurocracy, SSSI's DEFRA the National Trust etc who in truth couldn't care less unless the subject impinges upon their sphere of influence.

It has taken the inception of recent activists eg Wild Justice to highlight the ineffectiveness of Government agencies  and their proclivity for ignoring the law of the land until challenged through the courts.

So consultation is a placebo UNTIL CHALLENGED through the courts. Please follow the Wild Justice web site and see how the great guardians of the  British Countryside have through prevarication, arrogance, ignorance and self indulence have supported minority interests.

Where you may ask is this leading? Well simply I  climb and have done for over 55 years. I have placed 2 pegs and no bolts in that  time. I've bouldered starting on carpet and beer mats, used hemp waist lines and Army surplus stores carabiners and made my own protection drilling out bolts (the bolts that screw onto nuts). I am in awe of modern youth and their dedication to the game we play. I am in awe of the crag cleaners and finders and their search for new rock (in many cases very old pieces of rock reclaimed and rejuvenated).

I'm not a sport climber, a trad climber, a boulderer,  a solo climber or a scrambler I try it all even now. I'm not a paragon of virtue. I am not trying to set an example simply enjoying the game that I have indulged myself in. Thank fully the participants that I know, from the very young to the very old, have not changed in their  all encompassing attitude to the game we play.

Get out there and climb. Embrace it, love it. It is fantastic. Threads like this, and the majority are from my limited experience,  just a complete waste of time and energy.

And to preempt the smart arses who are going to say 'you hyopocrite why are you participating?' Well it's Friday, it's pitch black  its sleeting and there's a wind getting up climbing gyms have been locked down. I've helped build a training wall and I do circuits 3 times a week. I've bought a bike(an ebike to add to the controversy)  just to get outside. And I am bored! Hence the missive.

I can assure you I'll not be back! 

Oh Andy Hyslop,top post my man. Excellent! 9