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Just a quick message to let people know that there is a loose boulder at the top of Heaven Crack and adjacent to Hell Crack, at Stanage Edge.
This boulder is directly at the top of Heaven Crack and is in a good position to belay from. It shows wear from being used repeatedly for belays, but when pulled in a specific direction topples towards the edge.
It appears that this boulder may have been responsible, in part, for the following incidents at Stanage in recent weeks:
http://www.edalemrt.co.uk/cgi-bin/createIncidentMap.cgi?mapMode=Year&ma... Incidents 32 and 44
http://www.edalemrt.co.uk/cgi-bin/createIncidentMap.cgi?mapMode=Year&ma... Incident 23
Climbing has inherent risks and we all make judgments on belays all the time, but this boulder seems intent on fooling as many of us as possible.
This boulder is directly at the top of Heaven Crack and is in a good position to belay from. It shows wear from being used repeatedly for belays, but when pulled in a specific direction topples towards the edge.
It appears that this boulder may have been responsible, in part, for the following incidents at Stanage in recent weeks:
http://www.edalemrt.co.uk/cgi-bin/createIncidentMap.cgi?mapMode=Year&ma... Incidents 32 and 44
http://www.edalemrt.co.uk/cgi-bin/createIncidentMap.cgi?mapMode=Year&ma... Incident 23
Climbing has inherent risks and we all make judgments on belays all the time, but this boulder seems intent on fooling as many of us as possible.
In reply to James Thacker:
"It appears that this boulder may have been responsible, in part, for the following incidents at Stanage in recent weeks:"
Where does it appear? I can't trace the link in those reports, some of which seem to be on different butresses. Do you have other information?? Quite a few blocks on the top of grit crags rock. On that subject do you mean rocks towards the edge (ie tips on a fixed pivot) raher than topples (ie the pivot is physically moving towards the edge). Given so many of these boulders move it seems to me its not the boulders fooling climber's, more climbers fooling themselves. 3 abseil failures in a year on a popular crag where you can easily scramble down is another story.
"It appears that this boulder may have been responsible, in part, for the following incidents at Stanage in recent weeks:"
Where does it appear? I can't trace the link in those reports, some of which seem to be on different butresses. Do you have other information?? Quite a few blocks on the top of grit crags rock. On that subject do you mean rocks towards the edge (ie tips on a fixed pivot) raher than topples (ie the pivot is physically moving towards the edge). Given so many of these boulders move it seems to me its not the boulders fooling climber's, more climbers fooling themselves. 3 abseil failures in a year on a popular crag where you can easily scramble down is another story.
Hi Offwidth, yep lots of blocks rock. This block forms a thread at the top of the boulder which is logical to belay off. This combined with a sitting stance probably works fine. The same thread anchor as an abseil creates a pivot point due to the outward force.
Go and have a look, these things are always difficult to explain even thought this is a discussion forum. Appreciate that the information in the reports may appear to be different, but all refers to the same vicinity.
Having been a member of the rescue team in the past I know that pinning down exactly what route it was is sometimes difficult. It's often not folks priority at the time either.
Go and have a look, these things are always difficult to explain even thought this is a discussion forum. Appreciate that the information in the reports may appear to be different, but all refers to the same vicinity.
Having been a member of the rescue team in the past I know that pinning down exactly what route it was is sometimes difficult. It's often not folks priority at the time either.
In reply to James Thacker:
I think I know what you mean (an obvious convenient looking anchor) but its never 'logical' to belay off any block that might move. How big is it (ie is it possible to lever it with say a crow-bar to another position so it doesn't move)?
I think I know what you mean (an obvious convenient looking anchor) but its never 'logical' to belay off any block that might move. How big is it (ie is it possible to lever it with say a crow-bar to another position so it doesn't move)?
In reply to Offwidth: Yeah, it's totally feasible to move it with a couple of folk or a crow-bar.
In reply to James Thacker:
Why would anyone abseil within touching distance of the descent path?
> The same thread anchor as an abseil
Why would anyone abseil within touching distance of the descent path?
In reply to Offwidth:
Yes, a story of retrieving stuck gear. Nobody would abseil at Stanage simply to get down to the bottom of the crag - as well you know...
In reply to Toreador:
See above
> (In reply to James Thacker)
>
> ... 3 abseil failures in a year on a popular crag where you can easily scramble down is another story.
>
> ... 3 abseil failures in a year on a popular crag where you can easily scramble down is another story.
Yes, a story of retrieving stuck gear. Nobody would abseil at Stanage simply to get down to the bottom of the crag - as well you know...
In reply to Toreador:
>
> Why would anyone abseil within touching distance of the descent path?
> Why would anyone abseil within touching distance of the descent path?
See above
In reply to Lurkio:
fairy nuff
fairy nuff
In reply to Lurkio:
You forgot the wink (or you never visit Stanage and witness how lazy some climbers can be), or do you know these people were recovering stuck gear (as some do and thats fair enough)?
You forgot the wink (or you never visit Stanage and witness how lazy some climbers can be), or do you know these people were recovering stuck gear (as some do and thats fair enough)?
In reply to Offwidth:
I did forget the wink. I'm lazy, so at Stanage I will always walk/scramble down rather than faff around setting up an abseil.
> (In reply to Lurkio)
>
> You forgot the wink (or you never visit Stanage and witness how lazy some climbers can be), or do you know these people were recovering stuck gear (as some do and thats fair enough)?
>
> You forgot the wink (or you never visit Stanage and witness how lazy some climbers can be), or do you know these people were recovering stuck gear (as some do and thats fair enough)?
I did forget the wink. I'm lazy, so at Stanage I will always walk/scramble down rather than faff around setting up an abseil.
In reply to Offwidth:
You think!!! lol
> (In reply to Lurkio)
>
> Ha! that just makes you intelligent lazy rather than stupid lazy
>
> Ha! that just makes you intelligent lazy rather than stupid lazy
You think!!! lol
In reply to James Thacker:
Had a look at this tonight and I can see what you mean
The boulder looks at first absolutely solid - takes a lot of force to move it - I had to stand on one side and pull (which may tell you something about my weight and strength!)
I can see that sling threaded between the boulder and the block behind would appear pretty good (not saying I would rely solely on it) but when fully weighted, the boulder could well rock and release it
Not sure what can be done. I thought about jamming another rock behind it so it would look less tempting, but I think that people might still use it and it would be even less reliable
Had a look at this tonight and I can see what you mean
The boulder looks at first absolutely solid - takes a lot of force to move it - I had to stand on one side and pull (which may tell you something about my weight and strength!)
I can see that sling threaded between the boulder and the block behind would appear pretty good (not saying I would rely solely on it) but when fully weighted, the boulder could well rock and release it
Not sure what can be done. I thought about jamming another rock behind it so it would look less tempting, but I think that people might still use it and it would be even less reliable
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I think I had a look at this boulder at the weeekend. how large is it roughly?
I'm not going to get into a debate about if there is a time when it's ok to use just one peice of gear... but surely this simply illustrates that even that which looks 'bomber' is often well advisably backed up?
> I can see that sling threaded between the boulder and the block behind would appear pretty good (not saying I would rely solely on it) but when fully weighted, the boulder could well rock and release it
I think I had a look at this boulder at the weeekend. how large is it roughly?
I'm not going to get into a debate about if there is a time when it's ok to use just one peice of gear... but surely this simply illustrates that even that which looks 'bomber' is often well advisably backed up?
In reply to nikinko:
Fridge sized (why are household objects the SI measurement for loose blocks?)
It's about 10 foot back from the edge and it's back leans against a block behind it. I guess there were be no danger if a sling is thread round the base of the boulder, only if it is threaded around the point where the boulder meets the block
Fridge sized (why are household objects the SI measurement for loose blocks?)
It's about 10 foot back from the edge and it's back leans against a block behind it. I guess there were be no danger if a sling is thread round the base of the boulder, only if it is threaded around the point where the boulder meets the block
In reply to Offwidth:
The one incident I do have full knowledge of was abbing for gear.
> (In reply to Lurkio)
>
> You forgot the wink (or you never visit Stanage and witness how lazy some climbers can be), or do you know these people were recovering stuck gear (as some do and thats fair enough)?
>
> You forgot the wink (or you never visit Stanage and witness how lazy some climbers can be), or do you know these people were recovering stuck gear (as some do and thats fair enough)?
The one incident I do have full knowledge of was abbing for gear.
In reply to James Thacker:
Someone get a decent photo of the block and another with the sling looped round to show the wrong way and post it on here or send to BMC, and a copy to North Lees campsite with a warning.
Someone get a decent photo of the block and another with the sling looped round to show the wrong way and post it on here or send to BMC, and a copy to North Lees campsite with a warning.
In reply to sutty:
Better to move it. Its a bit silly to place belays that apply lever force on such blocks but some people are silly. Even blocks that weigh several tonnes will rock if a pivot is close to below the centre of mass. I find it odd I'm constantly arguing against the 'three point bomber belay with locking crabs' brigade on these forums when people are setting up such inadequte belays for abseil. As people have said earlier, back up such belay points and sling the base, not higher up.
Better to move it. Its a bit silly to place belays that apply lever force on such blocks but some people are silly. Even blocks that weigh several tonnes will rock if a pivot is close to below the centre of mass. I find it odd I'm constantly arguing against the 'three point bomber belay with locking crabs' brigade on these forums when people are setting up such inadequte belays for abseil. As people have said earlier, back up such belay points and sling the base, not higher up.
In reply to James Thacker:
i think i can explain which boulder it is as i was one of the 2 who had incidents there over the last few weeks. if the second guy to have the accident is reading i send my regards and hope you recover soon.
the boulder is roughly 10-15 foot back from the cliff top directly above heaven crack which is why it is such a obvious belay. i am not sure about whether the boulder would lift up in weighting, i havent been back since but it appeared at first it was an error in clipping the tape not the boulder its self. im unsure about the other accident but maybe someone will have more details
i think i can explain which boulder it is as i was one of the 2 who had incidents there over the last few weeks. if the second guy to have the accident is reading i send my regards and hope you recover soon.
the boulder is roughly 10-15 foot back from the cliff top directly above heaven crack which is why it is such a obvious belay. i am not sure about whether the boulder would lift up in weighting, i havent been back since but it appeared at first it was an error in clipping the tape not the boulder its self. im unsure about the other accident but maybe someone will have more details
In reply to tompilgrem: I know exactly which boulder you mean. I belayed Will Legon (Will4Adventure) on this and he rebuked me as he knew that the boulder could easily move. Be careful!
In reply to tompilgrem: but you said you only clipped one side of the tape. is that not right?
in reply to OP - glad you've brought this up. I too have abseiled off this block and thought it bomber. On hearing about an accident a year or so ago I had another look. It looked absolutely solid - a big block resting against another - so I thought it must have been "careless" error on the part of the abseiler.
However, given that more people seem to have fallen off it (and assuming that tompilgrem was mistaken when he originally said he only clipped one side of the tape) someone should have a look.
I'll have another look tomorrow and take pics. I'm pretty sure I remember what it looks like though and it'll not be as simple as moving the block out of the way to make it safe...
in reply to OP - glad you've brought this up. I too have abseiled off this block and thought it bomber. On hearing about an accident a year or so ago I had another look. It looked absolutely solid - a big block resting against another - so I thought it must have been "careless" error on the part of the abseiler.
However, given that more people seem to have fallen off it (and assuming that tompilgrem was mistaken when he originally said he only clipped one side of the tape) someone should have a look.
I'll have another look tomorrow and take pics. I'm pretty sure I remember what it looks like though and it'll not be as simple as moving the block out of the way to make it safe...
Hi tompilgrem: Hope you are back out climbing after you ordeal. We are talking about the same boulder. It does indeed move when weighted in the right (or wrong) direction and only needs to move enough for a tape sling to pull out of the thread.
This produces a "failure" situation very similar to not clipping both ends of the sling - actually the karabiner becomes totally detached. Either way the result is the same.
I tried to move the boulder the other evening with a friend and we failed. It's clear that it would need a concerted effort. Will speak to the BMC and Adam Long. In anycase you can get a 16ft sling around a big blunt spike immediately behind.
Will upload a photo to my blog (sorry no direct link allowed) and to my profile images. Cheers James
This produces a "failure" situation very similar to not clipping both ends of the sling - actually the karabiner becomes totally detached. Either way the result is the same.
I tried to move the boulder the other evening with a friend and we failed. It's clear that it would need a concerted effort. Will speak to the BMC and Adam Long. In anycase you can get a 16ft sling around a big blunt spike immediately behind.
Will upload a photo to my blog (sorry no direct link allowed) and to my profile images. Cheers James
In reply to James Thacker:
Here's the link: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=142844 Thanks for the public service.
Not quite sure about the scale, but judging from the grass tufts I wouldnt touch it as an anchor. If I'm going to use something that's not part of the crag mainframe (bedrock, not fractured) I want it to be at least as big/heavy as me and would always test for leverage/rotation.
I'm quite torn here between supporting the removal of a proven bone-breaker, and leaving it and promoting better judgement skills; apparently these are integral to our pastime?
Here's the link: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=142844 Thanks for the public service.
Not quite sure about the scale, but judging from the grass tufts I wouldnt touch it as an anchor. If I'm going to use something that's not part of the crag mainframe (bedrock, not fractured) I want it to be at least as big/heavy as me and would always test for leverage/rotation.
I'm quite torn here between supporting the removal of a proven bone-breaker, and leaving it and promoting better judgement skills; apparently these are integral to our pastime?
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Think a bit of leverage would move it away so it could not be miss-used as a thread. too many people have been hurt already, and not everyone uses these forums.
Think a bit of leverage would move it away so it could not be miss-used as a thread. too many people have been hurt already, and not everyone uses these forums.
In reply to sutty:
I'm inclined to agree, but playing Devil's Advocate, should we therefore tow away every badly-keyed or creaking block at the top of Stanage that somebody MIGHT use as an anchor? I suspect there are loads of them, that they get used regularly, and that it doesnt become an issue until somebody decides to ab on them. Maybe the solution is better gear placement and removal? I blame cams...
I'm inclined to agree, but playing Devil's Advocate, should we therefore tow away every badly-keyed or creaking block at the top of Stanage that somebody MIGHT use as an anchor? I suspect there are loads of them, that they get used regularly, and that it doesnt become an issue until somebody decides to ab on them. Maybe the solution is better gear placement and removal? I blame cams...
In reply to sutty: I want to hear that someone definitely put a sling properly round the bottom of this boulder, and it still failed before anyone goes up there with a crowbar. I think people have been using it wrong and can't see how a sling right round the bottom could fail.
Hooked over the top... fair enough, but round the bottom? I've not heard anyone claim that yet - far too much speculation.
Hooked over the top... fair enough, but round the bottom? I've not heard anyone claim that yet - far too much speculation.
> should we therefore tow away every badly-keyed or creaking block at the top of Stanage that somebody MIGHT use as an anchor?
....or even the solid ones that they might use incorrectly? Why not "improve" some hex placements as well?
> Maybe the solution is better gear placement and removal? I blame cams...
By which I meant why are people abbing for gear on a VDiff?
In reply to Mutl3y:
The incident that happened at heaven crack in April last year is exactly the same. (Incident 23, 2009 in the Edale MRT records). I was leading martello buttress a few metres away at the time. Someone decided to give their mate who was brand new to climbing a go at abseiling from the top of heaven crack. They used a sling around this boulder as their one anchor. As the guy leaned off the edge at the top, the boulder appears to have given way and he fell the whole length of heaven crack. He was in a pretty bad way (although he did recover). After getting him onto the helicopter, a few of us went and looked at the anchor. It definitely appeared that the boulder had moved and the sling had slipped over it as soon as the guy put his full weight on it.
Judging by the recent accidents this year it's not been an isolated incident and people still rely on this one 'bomber' rock for abseiling off.
The incident that happened at heaven crack in April last year is exactly the same. (Incident 23, 2009 in the Edale MRT records). I was leading martello buttress a few metres away at the time. Someone decided to give their mate who was brand new to climbing a go at abseiling from the top of heaven crack. They used a sling around this boulder as their one anchor. As the guy leaned off the edge at the top, the boulder appears to have given way and he fell the whole length of heaven crack. He was in a pretty bad way (although he did recover). After getting him onto the helicopter, a few of us went and looked at the anchor. It definitely appeared that the boulder had moved and the sling had slipped over it as soon as the guy put his full weight on it.
Judging by the recent accidents this year it's not been an isolated incident and people still rely on this one 'bomber' rock for abseiling off.
In reply to debbien1: Interesting. You say that the boulder had moved. So what exactly did you see when you went up to have a look? How do you know the boulder had moved? Was the sling still in place at all? How did you remove it?
In reply to debbien1:
You can easily tell from the photo that it is not a suitable abseil anchor; too small and not bedded-in. Anyone that uses that (without a back-up) to introduce a trusting friend to climbing/abseiling should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
The problem appears to not be the block but a widespread lack of judgement skill.
> Judging by the recent accidents this year it's not been an isolated incident and people still rely on this one 'bomber' rock for abseiling off.
You can easily tell from the photo that it is not a suitable abseil anchor; too small and not bedded-in. Anyone that uses that (without a back-up) to introduce a trusting friend to climbing/abseiling should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
The problem appears to not be the block but a widespread lack of judgement skill.
In reply to Mutl3y:
I think it would be extremely bad news for anyone to head up there with a crowbar in any case. If there was a consensus that the boulder needed moving (after proper discussion including people who don't read UKC - most obviously Henry Folkard), it should prolly be done with more care than that.
> before anyone goes up there with a crowbar
I think it would be extremely bad news for anyone to head up there with a crowbar in any case. If there was a consensus that the boulder needed moving (after proper discussion including people who don't read UKC - most obviously Henry Folkard), it should prolly be done with more care than that.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
You're probably right about that. If you wander along the top of Stanage (especially the Pop End) on a busy day its pretty self-evident. You see a lot of belays that are less than ideal and a few that are really scary.
I think its fair to say that someone who thinks Heaven Crack is a suitable route for a novice to abseil down is guilty of a degree of poor judgement before they even start looking for an anchor.
> The problem appears to not be the block but a widespread lack of judgement skill.
You're probably right about that. If you wander along the top of Stanage (especially the Pop End) on a busy day its pretty self-evident. You see a lot of belays that are less than ideal and a few that are really scary.
I think its fair to say that someone who thinks Heaven Crack is a suitable route for a novice to abseil down is guilty of a degree of poor judgement before they even start looking for an anchor.
In reply to deepsoup:
It was ever thus, even ten years ago when Stanage was a regular stomping ground for me. I guess because of where it is and the type of clmbs it must be a very popular spot for trad leaders to cut their teeth (and make mistakes).
Agreed; it's quite steep, the anchors are low and the take-off awkward, there's scope for getting a boot caught behind the flake and it's not long enough for the abseiler to get into the swing of it. One of those big slabs at Froggat would be much better...
> If you wander along the top of Stanage (especially the Pop End) on a busy day its pretty self-evident. You see a lot of belays that are less than ideal and a few that are really scary.
It was ever thus, even ten years ago when Stanage was a regular stomping ground for me. I guess because of where it is and the type of clmbs it must be a very popular spot for trad leaders to cut their teeth (and make mistakes).
> I think its fair to say that someone who thinks Heaven Crack is a suitable route for a novice to abseil down is guilty of a degree of poor judgement before they even start looking for an anchor.
Agreed; it's quite steep, the anchors are low and the take-off awkward, there's scope for getting a boot caught behind the flake and it's not long enough for the abseiler to get into the swing of it. One of those big slabs at Froggat would be much better...
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I would suggest that before anyone goes near it with a crow bar, it would be useful if someone should take a video showing how niave use of the boulder could lead to a failure. It would make for a very useful warning film.
Also, can we have a bit less of the "only a muppet would rely on this" (not aimed at anyone in particular, but the general tone of the this thread). Having examined the boulder, and seen how much force in a particular direction is required to move it, it's not hard to see how an inexperienced climber could make a mistake - I've certainly abbed on things that have looked less secure than this (though not by choice!)
I would suggest that before anyone goes near it with a crow bar, it would be useful if someone should take a video showing how niave use of the boulder could lead to a failure. It would make for a very useful warning film.
Also, can we have a bit less of the "only a muppet would rely on this" (not aimed at anyone in particular, but the general tone of the this thread). Having examined the boulder, and seen how much force in a particular direction is required to move it, it's not hard to see how an inexperienced climber could make a mistake - I've certainly abbed on things that have looked less secure than this (though not by choice!)
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I'll refrain from any "only a muppet would rely on this" comment until I get confirmation that the boulder is as small as I think it is. Then I suspect I'll let rip.
I'll refrain from any "only a muppet would rely on this" comment until I get confirmation that the boulder is as small as I think it is. Then I suspect I'll let rip.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: until you've actually seen it I think you should listen to Chris the Tall. After you've seen it... probably still listen to Chris.
I would be very keen to see a vid of how a properly secured sling (threaded through the bottom, ends linked, knot tied, crab clicked into the end) could fail. I have belayed and abbed (for stuck gear) off this boulder and considered it very safe. Having looked at it since I've thought the only reason it could fail would be user error.
Still looking for an explanation as to the state of the sling following incident 23, 2009.
I would be very keen to see a vid of how a properly secured sling (threaded through the bottom, ends linked, knot tied, crab clicked into the end) could fail. I have belayed and abbed (for stuck gear) off this boulder and considered it very safe. Having looked at it since I've thought the only reason it could fail would be user error.
Still looking for an explanation as to the state of the sling following incident 23, 2009.
In reply to Mutl3y:
My guess is that a sling threaded around the bottom of the boulder would be absolutely sound and would not cause the boulder to rock at all. This might however require a fairly long sling and be awkward to place.
However a sling placed around the back of the boulder would probably be much easier to place and be possible with a shorter sling. My guess is that such a sling could well appear to be perfectly sound and that the boulder would not budge a millimetre if you yanked on it in almost any direction. In fact, based on my test of making the boulder rock, it might only happen if sufficient weight is applied in just the right direction - unfortunately this direction is horizontally and towards the cliff edge
So if anyone is up there with a rope and a camera in the next few days and fancies trying out this theory, it would be interesting to see the results. Just make sure you don't hurt yourself in the process
> I would be very keen to see a vid of how a properly secured sling (threaded through the bottom, ends linked, knot tied, crab clicked into the end) could fail. I have belayed and abbed (for stuck gear) off this boulder and considered it very safe. Having looked at it since I've thought the only reason it could fail would be user error.
>
>
My guess is that a sling threaded around the bottom of the boulder would be absolutely sound and would not cause the boulder to rock at all. This might however require a fairly long sling and be awkward to place.
However a sling placed around the back of the boulder would probably be much easier to place and be possible with a shorter sling. My guess is that such a sling could well appear to be perfectly sound and that the boulder would not budge a millimetre if you yanked on it in almost any direction. In fact, based on my test of making the boulder rock, it might only happen if sufficient weight is applied in just the right direction - unfortunately this direction is horizontally and towards the cliff edge
So if anyone is up there with a rope and a camera in the next few days and fancies trying out this theory, it would be interesting to see the results. Just make sure you don't hurt yourself in the process
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Thanks to Jamie's posting of that photo I remember that block now. Sorry Chris but only a muppet would rely on a single piece belay on such a block and only a muppet would use Heaven Crack for abseil practice.
In reply to all the muppets
Always back up belay threads formed by perched blocks. Even if you thread the bottom (safer as it applies less leverage) a moving block might rock and slice your thread.
Thanks to Jamie's posting of that photo I remember that block now. Sorry Chris but only a muppet would rely on a single piece belay on such a block and only a muppet would use Heaven Crack for abseil practice.
In reply to all the muppets
Always back up belay threads formed by perched blocks. Even if you thread the bottom (safer as it applies less leverage) a moving block might rock and slice your thread.
In reply to Mutl3y:
Why does it matter how people are using it wrong. It appears to be regularly catching people out* and it looks like it could easily be rolled aside to remove the temptation. If anyone has the inclination to go roll it out of the way I don't see why they shouldn't. The next unfortunate to misjudge it may not be so lucky.
*god alone knows why, it looks to be the size of a small TV and obviously just sat on the surface.
jk
> (In reply to sutty) I want to hear that someone definitely put a sling properly round the bottom of this boulder, and it still failed before anyone goes up there with a crowbar. I think people have been using it wrong and can't see how a sling right round the bottom could fail.
> Hooked over the top... fair enough, but round the bottom? I've not heard anyone claim that yet - far too much speculation.
> Hooked over the top... fair enough, but round the bottom? I've not heard anyone claim that yet - far too much speculation.
Why does it matter how people are using it wrong. It appears to be regularly catching people out* and it looks like it could easily be rolled aside to remove the temptation. If anyone has the inclination to go roll it out of the way I don't see why they shouldn't. The next unfortunate to misjudge it may not be so lucky.
*god alone knows why, it looks to be the size of a small TV and obviously just sat on the surface.
jk
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
So you will trust 10g of aluminium wedged into a crack but not 50Kg's of gritstone? An odd distinction to make. My worry from the photo is that its taken from above so I can't see the detail of what is happening on the left i.e. is it sitting on the surface/v.shallow crack or wedged in tight. For a rock stuck in a crack don't think of it as a boulder, think of it as a very large nut.
As for Tom's accident in march it wasn't a thread that pulled through that boulder. I was first on the scene (he missed landing on me by about 1 foot and did land on my partner). The sling he had used was still clipped to his rope and was only clipped once. A pulled thread would either be clipped once or have fallen away depending on if the sling was twisted.
> (In reply to James Thacker)
>
>
>
> Not quite sure about the scale, but judging from the grass tufts I wouldnt touch it as an anchor. If I'm going to use something that's not part of the crag mainframe (bedrock, not fractured) I want it to be at least as big/heavy as me and would always test for leverage/rotation.
>
> Not quite sure about the scale, but judging from the grass tufts I wouldnt touch it as an anchor. If I'm going to use something that's not part of the crag mainframe (bedrock, not fractured) I want it to be at least as big/heavy as me and would always test for leverage/rotation.
>
So you will trust 10g of aluminium wedged into a crack but not 50Kg's of gritstone? An odd distinction to make. My worry from the photo is that its taken from above so I can't see the detail of what is happening on the left i.e. is it sitting on the surface/v.shallow crack or wedged in tight. For a rock stuck in a crack don't think of it as a boulder, think of it as a very large nut.
As for Tom's accident in march it wasn't a thread that pulled through that boulder. I was first on the scene (he missed landing on me by about 1 foot and did land on my partner). The sling he had used was still clipped to his rope and was only clipped once. A pulled thread would either be clipped once or have fallen away depending on if the sling was twisted.
In reply to James Thacker: As much as I hate tick-marks, painted crags, bolted signs etc. would a handwritten chalk warning (could be as simple as "unstable!") under the lip so you'd only see it whilst crouching down to thread it be a suitable temporary fix?
In reply to Offwidth:
Since we don't know for certain that this was indeed the cause on all, or indeed any, of the accidents, nor that this was the reason for the abseils, then my inclination is to be a little less judgemental.
Unwarranted speculation and condemnation of serious accidents could be distressing to those involved in serious accidents
Indeed, the plus side of threads like these is that people can learn something
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> Sorry Chris but only a muppet would rely on a single piece belay on such a block and only a muppet would use Heaven Crack for abseil practice.
>
>
> Sorry Chris but only a muppet would rely on a single piece belay on such a block and only a muppet would use Heaven Crack for abseil practice.
>
Since we don't know for certain that this was indeed the cause on all, or indeed any, of the accidents, nor that this was the reason for the abseils, then my inclination is to be a little less judgemental.
Unwarranted speculation and condemnation of serious accidents could be distressing to those involved in serious accidents
>
> Always back up belay threads formed by perched blocks. Even if you thread the bottom (safer as it applies less leverage) a moving block might rock and slice your thread.
> Always back up belay threads formed by perched blocks. Even if you thread the bottom (safer as it applies less leverage) a moving block might rock and slice your thread.
Indeed, the plus side of threads like these is that people can learn something
In reply to jkarran:
>it looks like it could easily be rolled aside to remove the temptation.
Tried that. It's actually difficult to move at all, and only rocks about an inch or so away from the block behind
>it looks like it could easily be rolled aside to remove the temptation.
Tried that. It's actually difficult to move at all, and only rocks about an inch or so away from the block behind
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Ok, perhaps not easily but if it's rocking freely then it's surely not beyond the wit of man to trundle it out of the way with a bit of mechanical advantage. To be honest, I don't much care either way but if it's a known 'trap' in a popular beginner's area as it seems to be then it makes sense to move it or stabilise it.
jk
Ok, perhaps not easily but if it's rocking freely then it's surely not beyond the wit of man to trundle it out of the way with a bit of mechanical advantage. To be honest, I don't much care either way but if it's a known 'trap' in a popular beginner's area as it seems to be then it makes sense to move it or stabilise it.
jk
In reply to Chris the Tall:
My two muppet points stand irrespective. I can't and won't speak for the specific incidents (I dont know the details and they may be more complex).
The history of muppetry is is perhaps usefully related to Peter Cooke's famous black joke: "I learn from my mistakes... I can repeat them exactly". I've always believed the learning capacity from accident threads is rather limited: those who need to learn most usually won't. In contrast the potential for upset and mis-information is very real on such threads.
My two muppet points stand irrespective. I can't and won't speak for the specific incidents (I dont know the details and they may be more complex).
The history of muppetry is is perhaps usefully related to Peter Cooke's famous black joke: "I learn from my mistakes... I can repeat them exactly". I've always believed the learning capacity from accident threads is rather limited: those who need to learn most usually won't. In contrast the potential for upset and mis-information is very real on such threads.
In reply to Offwidth: I'm against moving it at all, otherwise where does this end, every bit loose rock around gear placements? At worst, it should be shifted 1 cm, so there is a clear gap, this might help those with poor judgement to see the pitfalls of using a small unstable boulder, at least people won't deck because they only clipped one end.
In reply to Offwidth: OK so I'm a muppet in your opinion - talking about a block you've not even bothered to go have a look at yourself.
But I still want proof. I would love to see the demonstration of how a properly placed sling would fail on this one. Having trusted my life to it more than once I seriously don't think I was doing anything wrong.
Putting a sling over the top of it - yeah, that's stupid, lazy and careless. But underneath?? Get up there with a video. Hell, I'm free to go up this evening with you to find out?
But I still want proof. I would love to see the demonstration of how a properly placed sling would fail on this one. Having trusted my life to it more than once I seriously don't think I was doing anything wrong.
Putting a sling over the top of it - yeah, that's stupid, lazy and careless. But underneath?? Get up there with a video. Hell, I'm free to go up this evening with you to find out?
In reply to Mutl3y: sorry didn't mean to sound as harsh as that came across. Am really interested in going up there with someone and a camera to give the block a proper test though.
In reply to Mutl3y:
You appear to be complaining that you've been slighted in one breath then doing the same to others in the next. Curious.
Just because you can use the boulder in a particular way and get away with it* doesn't mean it's not a menace if another obvious way of using it** results in a less than obvious failure. What's to be gained by leaving it as it is?
*hell, I probably have though I don't remember specifically how
**threading the pinch, something I dislike generally and tend to avoid
jk
> (In reply to Offwidth) OK so I'm a muppet in your opinion - talking about a block you've not even bothered to go have a look at yourself.
> Putting a sling over the top of it - yeah, that's stupid, lazy and careless. But underneath?? Get up there with a video. Hell, I'm free to go up this evening with you to find out?
> Putting a sling over the top of it - yeah, that's stupid, lazy and careless. But underneath?? Get up there with a video. Hell, I'm free to go up this evening with you to find out?
You appear to be complaining that you've been slighted in one breath then doing the same to others in the next. Curious.
Just because you can use the boulder in a particular way and get away with it* doesn't mean it's not a menace if another obvious way of using it** results in a less than obvious failure. What's to be gained by leaving it as it is?
*hell, I probably have though I don't remember specifically how
**threading the pinch, something I dislike generally and tend to avoid
jk
In reply to jkarran:
I apologised for that.
I think it's a decent belay if used correctly. If not then I agree that it should be moved. Putting a sling over the top of it is (to me) a poor choice, but even without a long sling I think a rope passed underneath it would make an excellent belay/ab point.
Offer of going up there with someone to test it stands. I am genuinely interested in finding out just how dangerous it is and don't want to pre-judge the "move it", "leave it" outcome without a proper test.
> (In reply to Mutl3y)
> You appear to be complaining that you've been slighted in one breath then doing the same to others in the next. Curious.
I apologised for that.
> What's to be gained by leaving it as it is?
I think it's a decent belay if used correctly. If not then I agree that it should be moved. Putting a sling over the top of it is (to me) a poor choice, but even without a long sling I think a rope passed underneath it would make an excellent belay/ab point.
Offer of going up there with someone to test it stands. I am genuinely interested in finding out just how dangerous it is and don't want to pre-judge the "move it", "leave it" outcome without a proper test.
In reply to Mutl3y:
I'd rather video it as a warning and move it anyway, but can't be there tonight. Also rememeber that most of us have been a muppet on occasions. As I said above, I think I do remember that block having seen the photo... I was one of the key workers on the last guide and HC is my favorite solo on the edge (and some climbers think only muppets solo
I'd rather video it as a warning and move it anyway, but can't be there tonight. Also rememeber that most of us have been a muppet on occasions. As I said above, I think I do remember that block having seen the photo... I was one of the key workers on the last guide and HC is my favorite solo on the edge (and some climbers think only muppets solo
In reply to Mutl3y:
I'd be up for that. In fact I've just been out there to have a go.
I have posted some photos (yet to be approved), so I won't go into the detail of how I rigged it, but I did it so I could stand in a direct line behind the boulder, not dangle off the edge of the crag!
I couldn't get it to fail except by looping the sling over the top of the block, but I can't believe anyone would do that as it looks, and is, sh1t.
I couldn't reproduce the most likely (IMO) failure scenario, quite possibly because I'm not heavy enough to put sufficient weight on it, so a helper would be good to add weight and/or act as back-stop with a crash-pad!
Can't get out again today. Tomorrow?
Cheers,
Tim
> (In reply to jkarran)
> [...]
> [...]
> Offer of going up there with someone to test it stands. I am genuinely interested in finding out just how dangerous it is and don't want to pre-judge the "move it", "leave it" outcome without a proper test.
I'd be up for that. In fact I've just been out there to have a go.
I have posted some photos (yet to be approved), so I won't go into the detail of how I rigged it, but I did it so I could stand in a direct line behind the boulder, not dangle off the edge of the crag!
I couldn't get it to fail except by looping the sling over the top of the block, but I can't believe anyone would do that as it looks, and is, sh1t.
I couldn't reproduce the most likely (IMO) failure scenario, quite possibly because I'm not heavy enough to put sufficient weight on it, so a helper would be good to add weight and/or act as back-stop with a crash-pad!
Can't get out again today. Tomorrow?
Cheers,
Tim
In reply to Lurkio:
Would also be interested, but it would be Thursday evening before I could hobble up there
Would also be interested, but it would be Thursday evening before I could hobble up there
I've belayed off this. Rock the boulder, which opens up the 'thread' formed betwix it and the other. Drop sling in and let boulder roll back. Loop sling AROUND THE BASE of the wobbler (so wobbler sits in middle of sling loop). To retrieve, repeat backwards.
Using it as a true 'thread' or with a sling over the top - bad idea.
Using it as a true 'thread' or with a sling over the top - bad idea.
In reply to Lurkio:
Here they are:
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143022
Flake lassoed from above with long sling, connected to another sling.
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143025
Another shot of the rigging. I've rigged it so you can stand well back and pull in the opposite direction to the edge, while applying the load in the same direction as if abseiling off the edge
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143023
Sling threaded underneath and behind boulder - the load will pull it up and out, just about right to rock it forward and release the sling - maybe.
Others may have other/better ideas for testing this....
> (In reply to Mutl3y)
> [...]
> I have posted some photos
> [...]
> [...]
> I have posted some photos
> [...]
Here they are:
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143022
Flake lassoed from above with long sling, connected to another sling.
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143025
Another shot of the rigging. I've rigged it so you can stand well back and pull in the opposite direction to the edge, while applying the load in the same direction as if abseiling off the edge
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143023
Sling threaded underneath and behind boulder - the load will pull it up and out, just about right to rock it forward and release the sling - maybe.
Others may have other/better ideas for testing this....
In reply to davidwright:
That would depend on how securely each of the above was wedged. Put it this way, I've chosen to ab off 2 equalised small/medium nuts rather than a big wobbly block.
> So you will trust 10g of aluminium wedged into a crack but not 50Kg's of gritstone?
That would depend on how securely each of the above was wedged. Put it this way, I've chosen to ab off 2 equalised small/medium nuts rather than a big wobbly block.
In reply to jkarran:
Surely it's therefore also not beyond the wit of man to test the f***er before using it?
Pragmatically, I can see how it might be sensible to move it. But that would smack of dumbing-down and desensitizing the climbing experience, which I'm never comfortable with. I can certainly see how it is a tempting option, when there dont seem to a be lot of alternatives (I think I took my rope round the bigger block behind it, but that could be more faffy to set up). People have probably done this for years, but have gotten away with it as a belay because a sitting stance takes much of the load off the anchor, and because seconds tend not to fall off Heaven Crack. But there needs to be a higher level of scrutiny applied to an anchor for abseiling off, and this appears to have been lacking. Unfortunately I just cant understand why you would choose this route as a fun abseil, or how you'd get gear so badly stuck that you'd have to ab for it...
> if it's rocking freely then it's surely not beyond the wit of man to trundle it out of the way
Surely it's therefore also not beyond the wit of man to test the f***er before using it?
Pragmatically, I can see how it might be sensible to move it. But that would smack of dumbing-down and desensitizing the climbing experience, which I'm never comfortable with. I can certainly see how it is a tempting option, when there dont seem to a be lot of alternatives (I think I took my rope round the bigger block behind it, but that could be more faffy to set up). People have probably done this for years, but have gotten away with it as a belay because a sitting stance takes much of the load off the anchor, and because seconds tend not to fall off Heaven Crack. But there needs to be a higher level of scrutiny applied to an anchor for abseiling off, and this appears to have been lacking. Unfortunately I just cant understand why you would choose this route as a fun abseil, or how you'd get gear so badly stuck that you'd have to ab for it...
In reply to Lurkio: look like very imaginative ways of testing it. So even with that rubbish looking sling over the top it didn't pull out? Surely no chance of pulling it out from under then...
Hope you're about Thurs.
Hope you're about Thurs.
The most recent accident off this boulder (as far as I know) was my friend, though I had set the abseil up.
We had been out for the day and it was my friends first time out. I had been climbing Severes and he was struggling to get up them so I thought seeing as Heavens Crack was unoccupied and that we were in the area that we would finish off with that one. I led it and he tried to second up it.
By this point he was too tired and said he couldn't get up. Now for the people who seem to have poor imaginations or constantly proficient seconds we ended up in a situation where all of my gear was in the climb and my friend couldn't climb up to take it out. So I set an abseil up to get the gear.
Now I happened to use small sling (120cm) and slung the thread in a similar manner as in the picture though I think in the picture it is slightly longer.
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143025
My friend then asked whether the anchor was safe to which I assured him it was. I tried to rock the boulder about but it wouldn't move, checked the sling and rope were clipped correctly and then seeing as the boulder is some way back from the edge I managed to give the rope a couple of proper hard tugs and it didn't budge at all. It all seemed fine to me (checked rope was through belay plate correctly and that prussik was locking in loading etc.).
I think when my friend started to abseil to get the gear he slipped a little and shocked the anchor which, with the short sling, pivoted the block just enough for the sling to come out from behind it. The rest I am sure you can imagine.
Afterwards I went back to the top and jumped up and down on the boulder and if I jumped hard enough I could make the damned thing wobble.
Moral of the story: I'm going to buy a the biggest sling I can find so that I can thread around the bottom of boulders from now on and not thread things like that.
Anyway thats my story and personally I reckon you could abseil off it if you put a sling around the bottom as opposed to the thread at the top. If I can drag the thing an inch away from the other boulder I'm going to. I'd like it if other people could learn from my mistakes if possible, even if it is "dumbing down" climbing.
We had been out for the day and it was my friends first time out. I had been climbing Severes and he was struggling to get up them so I thought seeing as Heavens Crack was unoccupied and that we were in the area that we would finish off with that one. I led it and he tried to second up it.
By this point he was too tired and said he couldn't get up. Now for the people who seem to have poor imaginations or constantly proficient seconds we ended up in a situation where all of my gear was in the climb and my friend couldn't climb up to take it out. So I set an abseil up to get the gear.
Now I happened to use small sling (120cm) and slung the thread in a similar manner as in the picture though I think in the picture it is slightly longer.
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143025
My friend then asked whether the anchor was safe to which I assured him it was. I tried to rock the boulder about but it wouldn't move, checked the sling and rope were clipped correctly and then seeing as the boulder is some way back from the edge I managed to give the rope a couple of proper hard tugs and it didn't budge at all. It all seemed fine to me (checked rope was through belay plate correctly and that prussik was locking in loading etc.).
I think when my friend started to abseil to get the gear he slipped a little and shocked the anchor which, with the short sling, pivoted the block just enough for the sling to come out from behind it. The rest I am sure you can imagine.
Afterwards I went back to the top and jumped up and down on the boulder and if I jumped hard enough I could make the damned thing wobble.
Moral of the story: I'm going to buy a the biggest sling I can find so that I can thread around the bottom of boulders from now on and not thread things like that.
Anyway thats my story and personally I reckon you could abseil off it if you put a sling around the bottom as opposed to the thread at the top. If I can drag the thing an inch away from the other boulder I'm going to. I'd like it if other people could learn from my mistakes if possible, even if it is "dumbing down" climbing.
In reply to MPSBunny: It's good that you see it as a learning process, to me though that block just screams roundness at me and I have visions of the sling riding up off it, even if I was just sat at the edge belaying a second.
I see no reason to move, to trundle or to mark it. It is just one of hundreds of smallish, slightly rounded boulders on top of a climbing crag.
ps. Carrying one 240cm sling for the top of routes is the only way for me, either thread, sling the spike or equalise wires, you can do it all. Failing that you probably have 20m of spare rope on the top of most routes at Stanage.
I see no reason to move, to trundle or to mark it. It is just one of hundreds of smallish, slightly rounded boulders on top of a climbing crag.
ps. Carrying one 240cm sling for the top of routes is the only way for me, either thread, sling the spike or equalise wires, you can do it all. Failing that you probably have 20m of spare rope on the top of most routes at Stanage.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
for sure, 'coffin test' failed immediately for starters!
even unfit inexperienced seconds tired at the end of a long day who find the nice v diff to finish with steeper and harder than it looks?
just interested in why this is? surely either an anchor is good enough to support your weight, or that of you falling second plus yours as you hold them, or it isn't?
> Surely it's therefore also not beyond the wit of man to test the f***er before using it?
for sure, 'coffin test' failed immediately for starters!
> and because seconds tend not to fall off Heaven Crack.
even unfit inexperienced seconds tired at the end of a long day who find the nice v diff to finish with steeper and harder than it looks?
> But there needs to be a higher level of scrutiny applied to an anchor for abseiling off, and this appears to have been lacking.
just interested in why this is? surely either an anchor is good enough to support your weight, or that of you falling second plus yours as you hold them, or it isn't?
In reply to MPSBunny:
Thanks for the detail - I hope you, and your friend, are doing OK.
Cheers,
Tim
> The most recent accident off this boulder (as far as I know) was my friend, though I had set the abseil up.
Thanks for the detail - I hope you, and your friend, are doing OK.
Cheers,
Tim
In reply to nikinko:
If you are using an anchor as part of a belay system you will probably have equalised it, your stance should take much of the load off the anchor, and a snug rope to the second will avoid any dynamic loading. And your pal probably wont fall off a VDiff.
If you choose to abseil off a single point you are putting all of your eggs in one basket. You will load it fully, and with an awkward take-off this could be dynamic.
In short; dodgy belay anchor - you'll probably get away with it. Dodgy ab anchor - you probably wont.
This apparent acceptance (I prefer recognition) of anchor shortcomings might seem like anathema to crag engineers, but mountaineers should recognise it.
If you are using an anchor as part of a belay system you will probably have equalised it, your stance should take much of the load off the anchor, and a snug rope to the second will avoid any dynamic loading. And your pal probably wont fall off a VDiff.
If you choose to abseil off a single point you are putting all of your eggs in one basket. You will load it fully, and with an awkward take-off this could be dynamic.
In short; dodgy belay anchor - you'll probably get away with it. Dodgy ab anchor - you probably wont.
This apparent acceptance (I prefer recognition) of anchor shortcomings might seem like anathema to crag engineers, but mountaineers should recognise it.
In reply to Mutl3y:
With the sling over the top it did indeed fail, and not because the boulder rocked forward, but simply because the boulder is too rounded for it to hold, IMO.
Can't do Thursday evening, have fun if you get out with Chris.
Cheers,
Tim
> (In reply to Lurkio) look like very imaginative ways of testing it. So even with that rubbish looking sling over the top it didn't pull out? Surely no chance of pulling it out from under then...
>
> Hope you're about Thurs.
>
> Hope you're about Thurs.
With the sling over the top it did indeed fail, and not because the boulder rocked forward, but simply because the boulder is too rounded for it to hold, IMO.
Can't do Thursday evening, have fun if you get out with Chris.
Cheers,
Tim
In reply to Lurkio:
Impressed by the way you rigged up the test, but not actually suprised by the fact that it didn't fail - you need gravity on your side to replicate the weight of the abseiler
And therein lies the crux of the issue - the force required before the anchor will fail is greater than you are going to generate when you do the normal sort of test on it
I can now make tomorrow night if that would suit - the more brains on this the better !
Impressed by the way you rigged up the test, but not actually suprised by the fact that it didn't fail - you need gravity on your side to replicate the weight of the abseiler
And therein lies the crux of the issue - the force required before the anchor will fail is greater than you are going to generate when you do the normal sort of test on it
I can now make tomorrow night if that would suit - the more brains on this the better !
In reply to summo:
i dont believe you've understood MPSBunny rightly, he used the boulder as a thread so the sling he put on was beneath the point of contact with the rock it is leaning against. hence why when the block was shock loaded the point of contact the block had was removed and then the block was effectively a rounded spike which the sling slipped off.
i went up after the accident that his partner was involved in and after the gear had been removed and pointed to the same block as the anchor i'd have used. even after testing we only discovered it was possible to move by jumping up and down on it in exactly the right place - not something your going to do on every block you use as a belay is it? andd certainly not something your going to even think about if you've not seen it happen with a block before.
> (In reply to MPSBunny) It's good that you see it as a learning process, to me though that block just screams roundness at me and I have visions of the sling riding up off it, even if I was just sat at the edge belaying a second.
>
> I see no reason to move, to trundle or to mark it. It is just one of hundreds of smallish, slightly rounded boulders on top of a climbing crag.
>
>
> I see no reason to move, to trundle or to mark it. It is just one of hundreds of smallish, slightly rounded boulders on top of a climbing crag.
>
i dont believe you've understood MPSBunny rightly, he used the boulder as a thread so the sling he put on was beneath the point of contact with the rock it is leaning against. hence why when the block was shock loaded the point of contact the block had was removed and then the block was effectively a rounded spike which the sling slipped off.
i went up after the accident that his partner was involved in and after the gear had been removed and pointed to the same block as the anchor i'd have used. even after testing we only discovered it was possible to move by jumping up and down on it in exactly the right place - not something your going to do on every block you use as a belay is it? andd certainly not something your going to even think about if you've not seen it happen with a block before.
In reply to Northern Climber:
A good reason to avoid pinch-point threads where possible. The other (primary one) being they eat rope and I don't tend to use slings!
jk
> i went up after the accident that his partner was involved in and after the gear had been removed and pointed to the same block as the anchor i'd have used. even after testing we only discovered it was possible to move by jumping up and down on it in exactly the right place - not something your going to do on every block you use as a belay is it? andd certainly not something your going to even think about if you've not seen it happen with a block before.
A good reason to avoid pinch-point threads where possible. The other (primary one) being they eat rope and I don't tend to use slings!
jk
In reply to Northern Climber:
OK, so to thread a block that is not the biggest, at its highest point, with only a small point on contact between it and the large block, then abseil in a direction that effectively levers the thread open is ........ ?
Granted, but to me, this is not a big block, if nothing else is around then thread the base and sit start the abseil over the edge (like you would a snow bollard) so the rope stays low and there will be no bouncing.
I disagree, if you going to commit to a single point anchor or let someone else commit then you give that block a bloody good heave and if in doubt back it up or use something else. What's wrong with putting the rope or a sling around the more rectangular block to its right. I obviously can't see what the back of this block is like.
> (In reply to summo)
> i dont believe you've understood MPSBunny rightly, he used the boulder as a thread so the sling he put on was beneath the point of contact with the rock it is leaning against. hence why when the block was shock loaded the point of contact the block had was removed and then the block was effectively a rounded spike which the sling slipped off.
> i dont believe you've understood MPSBunny rightly, he used the boulder as a thread so the sling he put on was beneath the point of contact with the rock it is leaning against. hence why when the block was shock loaded the point of contact the block had was removed and then the block was effectively a rounded spike which the sling slipped off.
OK, so to thread a block that is not the biggest, at its highest point, with only a small point on contact between it and the large block, then abseil in a direction that effectively levers the thread open is ........ ?
> i went up after the accident that his partner was involved in and after the gear had been removed and pointed to the same block as the anchor i'd have used. even after testing we only discovered it was possible to move by jumping up and down on it in exactly the right place - not something your going to do on every block you use as a belay is it? andd certainly not something your going to even think about if you've not seen it happen with a block before.
Granted, but to me, this is not a big block, if nothing else is around then thread the base and sit start the abseil over the edge (like you would a snow bollard) so the rope stays low and there will be no bouncing.
I disagree, if you going to commit to a single point anchor or let someone else commit then you give that block a bloody good heave and if in doubt back it up or use something else. What's wrong with putting the rope or a sling around the more rectangular block to its right. I obviously can't see what the back of this block is like.
In reply to summo:
Or even just taking the rope for a walk around the back of the enourmous flat block visible here? http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143022
Or you could walk obliquely left to to those bigger boulders. Not textbook alignment, but if you sit on the little niche on the edge and keep tight to the anchor a falling second wouldnt move you.
Small blocks should ring alarm bells even before you test them. So should ones that are just sitting there and are not bedded in. If like this one you have a block that is both, you have lined up too many lemons in the Fruit Machine of Death.
> What's wrong with putting the rope or a sling around the more rectangular block to its right?
Or even just taking the rope for a walk around the back of the enourmous flat block visible here? http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143022
Or you could walk obliquely left to to those bigger boulders. Not textbook alignment, but if you sit on the little niche on the edge and keep tight to the anchor a falling second wouldnt move you.
Small blocks should ring alarm bells even before you test them. So should ones that are just sitting there and are not bedded in. If like this one you have a block that is both, you have lined up too many lemons in the Fruit Machine of Death.
In reply to Northern Climber:
That doesn't make sense as he says he used a short sling. It wouldn't be long enough to thread it as you describe except by rocking the block forward and dropping the sling through the gap (as described by someone earlier on in the thread.
> (In reply to summo)
> [...]
>
> i dont believe you've understood MPSBunny rightly, he used the boulder as a thread so the sling he put on was beneath the point of contact with the rock it is leaning against.
> [...]
>
> i dont believe you've understood MPSBunny rightly, he used the boulder as a thread so the sling he put on was beneath the point of contact with the rock it is leaning against.
That doesn't make sense as he says he used a short sling. It wouldn't be long enough to thread it as you describe except by rocking the block forward and dropping the sling through the gap (as described by someone earlier on in the thread.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Tomorrow is OK for me. What time?
> (In reply to Lurkio)
> you need gravity on your side to replicate the weight of the abseiler
>
It was always going to be hard to generate enough load on my own, but maybe with some help it might be possible. From what MPSBunny says, it sounds to me like he looped a short sling around the top of the boulder, which I believe would probably fail without any need for the block to rock.> you need gravity on your side to replicate the weight of the abseiler
>
> I can now make tomorrow night if that would suit - the more brains on this the better !
Tomorrow is OK for me. What time?
In reply to Lurkio: I can't make tomorrow unfortunately. Hope you two demonstrate just how dangerous it is if used wrong but also how good it is if used right.
In reply to Lurkio:
I can get there for 7
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
> [...]
> It was always going to be hard to generate enough load on my own, but maybe with some help it might be possible. From what MPSBunny says, it sounds to me like he looped a short sling around the top of the boulder, which I believe would probably fail without any need for the block to rock.
>
> [...]
>
> Tomorrow is OK for me. What time?
> [...]
> It was always going to be hard to generate enough load on my own, but maybe with some help it might be possible. From what MPSBunny says, it sounds to me like he looped a short sling around the top of the boulder, which I believe would probably fail without any need for the block to rock.
>
> [...]
>
> Tomorrow is OK for me. What time?
I can get there for 7
In reply to Northern Climber:
> (In reply to summo)
> [...]
>
>
> i dont believe you've understood MPSBunny rightly, he used the boulder as a thread so the sling he put on was beneath the point of contact with the rock it is leaning against. hence why when the block was shock loaded the point of contact the block had was removed and then the block was effectively a rounded spike which the sling slipped off.
>
Thats exactly what happened. > [...]
>
>
> i dont believe you've understood MPSBunny rightly, he used the boulder as a thread so the sling he put on was beneath the point of contact with the rock it is leaning against. hence why when the block was shock loaded the point of contact the block had was removed and then the block was effectively a rounded spike which the sling slipped off.
>
In reply to Lurkio: so how'd your testing go?
In reply to all:
Just to let people know that Tim (Lurkio) and I managed to move the boulder so there is now a good inch between it and the block behind
This means that it is not possible to thread it as shown in this picture
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143023
Before we moved it, we did rig up a sling like that, and only when both of us tugged simulteanously did the boulder rock and release the sling - it would pass a simple tug test.
No doubt someone will be concerned that you could put a nut in the gap and think that was safe. Well, we did that (with a no 11 Rock) and it was pretty obvious from a tug test that it wasn't good, the boulder started to rock and the nut came out on the 2nd or 3rd tug. Nonetheless the boulder can still be used as an anchor if a rope or long sling is placed around it's base (but don't blame me if you have difficulty removing your sling afterwards)
Thanks to James for doing the dectective work and highlighting the problem
Just to let people know that Tim (Lurkio) and I managed to move the boulder so there is now a good inch between it and the block behind
This means that it is not possible to thread it as shown in this picture
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=143023
Before we moved it, we did rig up a sling like that, and only when both of us tugged simulteanously did the boulder rock and release the sling - it would pass a simple tug test.
No doubt someone will be concerned that you could put a nut in the gap and think that was safe. Well, we did that (with a no 11 Rock) and it was pretty obvious from a tug test that it wasn't good, the boulder started to rock and the nut came out on the 2nd or 3rd tug. Nonetheless the boulder can still be used as an anchor if a rope or long sling is placed around it's base (but don't blame me if you have difficulty removing your sling afterwards)
Thanks to James for doing the dectective work and highlighting the problem
In reply to Chris the Tall: Good work guys, you've probably just saved someone's life.
In reply to davidwright:
Unless the sling was cow (girth) hitched, then it would be just as you have described.
> (In reply to Jamie Bankhead)
> As for Tom's accident in march it wasn't a thread that pulled through that boulder. I was first on the scene (he missed landing on me by about 1 foot and did land on my partner). The sling he had used was still clipped to his rope and was only clipped once. A pulled thread would either be clipped once or have fallen away depending on if the sling was twisted.
> As for Tom's accident in march it wasn't a thread that pulled through that boulder. I was first on the scene (he missed landing on me by about 1 foot and did land on my partner). The sling he had used was still clipped to his rope and was only clipped once. A pulled thread would either be clipped once or have fallen away depending on if the sling was twisted.
Unless the sling was cow (girth) hitched, then it would be just as you have described.
In reply to Chris the Tall: Well done guys, im sure the guys who have been injured as a result of the block will be gratefull that the problem has been made more obvious.
In reply to scott titt:
In which case he wouldn't think he had to clip both ends of it would he?
> (In reply to davidwright)
> [...]
>
> Unless the sling was cow (girth) hitched, then it would be just as you have described.
> [...]
>
> Unless the sling was cow (girth) hitched, then it would be just as you have described.
In which case he wouldn't think he had to clip both ends of it would he?
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Had a look at it this evening and the gap has gone down to less than a quarter of an inch.
I managed to rock the boulder in one direction but couldn't permanently increase the gap which I suspect will eventually close up again. Really we need a team of several people up there to move it so that it's totally away from the other rock.
In the meantime - as has already been said - belay on the much bigger piece of rock behind this boulder by running your rope round it. There's even a nice "overhanging prow" at the back that should stop any rope riding up.
> (In reply to all)
> Just to let people know that Tim (Lurkio) and I managed to move the boulder so there is now a good inch between it and the block behind
> Just to let people know that Tim (Lurkio) and I managed to move the boulder so there is now a good inch between it and the block behind
Had a look at it this evening and the gap has gone down to less than a quarter of an inch.
I managed to rock the boulder in one direction but couldn't permanently increase the gap which I suspect will eventually close up again. Really we need a team of several people up there to move it so that it's totally away from the other rock.
In the meantime - as has already been said - belay on the much bigger piece of rock behind this boulder by running your rope round it. There's even a nice "overhanging prow" at the back that should stop any rope riding up.
In reply to James Thacker: Maybe someone could carve a skull and crossbones on the rock?
In reply to Michael Hood:
I had a look yesterday and you are quite correct - it is back to where it started, leaning against the rock behind it. As it sits in a depression in the bed-rock, subsequent rocking has led to it gradually travelling back down into its original position.
The question is, what - if anything - should be done about it now?
(a) Nothing
(b) Move it a bit further than before to where it can't move back to where it came from - it wouldn't have to go more than a metre and it would still be well away from the edge of the crag. You'd need a couple of very large levers to move it.
(c) Designate Heaven Crack a "solo only" route, so there would be no belaying necessary and nobody would ever have to abseil for gear left/stuck in the route.
(d) Something else?
Cheers,
Tim
P.S. For those unhappy with option (c), it was a joke.
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> ...I managed to rock the boulder in one direction but couldn't permanently increase the gap which I suspect will eventually close up again.
>
> ...I managed to rock the boulder in one direction but couldn't permanently increase the gap which I suspect will eventually close up again.
I had a look yesterday and you are quite correct - it is back to where it started, leaning against the rock behind it. As it sits in a depression in the bed-rock, subsequent rocking has led to it gradually travelling back down into its original position.
The question is, what - if anything - should be done about it now?
(a) Nothing
(b) Move it a bit further than before to where it can't move back to where it came from - it wouldn't have to go more than a metre and it would still be well away from the edge of the crag. You'd need a couple of very large levers to move it.
(c) Designate Heaven Crack a "solo only" route, so there would be no belaying necessary and nobody would ever have to abseil for gear left/stuck in the route.
(d) Something else?
Cheers,
Tim
P.S. For those unhappy with option (c), it was a joke.
In reply to Lurkio: This doesn't cover all eventualities but if your second fails to complete a route and is lowered off then as an alternative to abseiling...
Second goes to top of crag, swops belay with leader, leader goes to bottom of crag, leader then seconds route.
Pretty easy for something like Heaven Crack which is next door to the descent.
Second goes to top of crag, swops belay with leader, leader goes to bottom of crag, leader then seconds route.
Pretty easy for something like Heaven Crack which is next door to the descent.
In reply to Lurkio:
would a simple solution liek tipping the block onto its side be enough?
i've not been up to that area of stanage since MPSbunny's partner had the accident and so the block is a little vague in my mind now.
would a simple solution liek tipping the block onto its side be enough?
i've not been up to that area of stanage since MPSbunny's partner had the accident and so the block is a little vague in my mind now.
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