UKH

There is a decent sized (about the size of your head) loose block on Kipling groove.

Its in the main groove, above and slightly left of the big lay back flake before you swing out on to the wall.

It's lying at the back of a shelf, had a little shit my pants moment when I started to pull on it.

It needs lobbing off the crag but would require some coordination to not kill anyone on routes or in the gully below!

https://ibb.co/qJW2H6j

I can't post pics so hopefully this link works.

One part of me says "Isn't modern technology wonderful, that we can warn others of potential danger in the hills".  The other part says "there have always been loose blocks on mountain crags and we have always coped and learnt to deal with it, it's part of the experience and adventure". I think I favour the latter but it may be a generational thing.

Fair enough, but I think I'd feel quite bad if someone ended up in a bad way or otherwise due to it and I'd not bothered my arse to say anything.

Your prerogative.

You might need those rubber pants if it came down by you

Is it really any different to chatting to someone in the ODG, saying "we're off to do Kipling Groove tomorrow" and them saying "we did that today, watch out for the loose block"? 

"In the old days we used to do things differently"

Well,

Welcome to the new days.

I suppose not.  I think it's simply that I find it odd that anyone would think that finding a loose block on a mountain route newsworthy and worthy of worldwide publication. It's also the juxtoposition of a traditionally dangerous and adventurous activity with a health and safety attitude and modern technology.

Hmmm. Dunno...

I'm not sure it does 'need lobbing off the crag'.

It's been there since the ice melted.

Every passing climber since at least 1948 has avoided pulling this block off - either by missing it or much more likely seeing it and carefully judging it to be obviously detached and insecure. That's part of climbing, as is using the abundant good holds close by.

You could lob it but what else would you reveal underneath for you to deal with? Might there be damage to the rock below as it clatters down?

It's hardly a hidden landmine.

I have a list a mile long of routes I know of that have loose holds.  Should I list them on here?  Should I feel guilty if someone has an accident? If they do surely it's a measure of their competence rather than a lack of my giving a warning.

After some thought I have concluded that having a chat in the ODG is not the same as publishing a warning world wide.

Depends if it's keyed in or just sitting there.

I don't remember it though it was a long time ago when I did it.

I disagree. Sitting there or keyed in, it's obviously to be treated with caution i.e. not a hidden landmine.

A blatantly obvious possible landmine.

Well your experience of loose blocks differs from mine.

Apart from the issue of whether it should be trundled ( the OP didn't wreak destruction by doing that), I think on balance that these things should be shared on here, and if the slightly argumentative response to this thread discourages others from reporting then that would be a bad thing.

Can you let me know where to get those periscope eyeballs from mate?

Definitely would come in useful.

I'm realising why I previously stopped posting on this forum now.

I uphold this view. If folk are going to get a hump on from people warning them of a potential risk, however 'historic', then I think they need to consider what sort of people they really are.

Regular eyeballs, careful hands, and ears, work just fine.

Mentioning loose holds is fine if you want to

'Trundling' isn't.  It's Brave Dave territory

Yeah, why not. And after all, folks can decide not to read these forums if they don’t like the content. 

Seconded. 

Sometimes it is OK to chuck a block off if you can guarantee it's not going to hit anyone and it presents a clear urgent danger surely? I've had to do it.

A well-intentioned warning, I'm sure. But it's a mountain crag.  There will be loose blocks. Try not to pull them off onto your belayer, or anyone else standing below.

I've decided to list the routes I've done where I have encountered loose rock.  Essentially every one in a mountain setting.

I'm not judging you, your motives are laudable, but it is reasonable to question actions and if this has caused you offence I apologise but this is a climbing related matter on a climbing related forum. If we cannot have a climbing discussion on a climbing forum I'm not sure what the point of the forum is.

I seem to remember when I did Kipling Groove about 35 years ago that there was a loose block in the groove, but you could avoid it.

I did it 47 years ago, has it got ruddyharder?

It wouldn't surprise me if it's exactly the same as it's ever been.

I'm unlikely to be offended by some random person I don't know sat behind a keyboard, if I were I'd be a pretty weak minded individual.

You're entitled to your thoughts on it of course. Sure I've done plenty of mountain and sea cliff routes with loose rocks and not felt the need to mention it. This one just stood out as particularly large with potential.

Perhaps my description of it as 'loose' wasn't very good. It's not loose, it's sat there unbound from the crag, and I pulled on it from below where I couldn't see it before I grabbed it.

Id be surprised if that rock in particular has been there since 1948 or whenever it was you last climbed the route.

Id have chucked it off and said no more if I could guarantee no one was there, I couldn't guarantee that so I left it.

Anyway, lesson learned. No further informative posts on routes that may detract from the purity of mountain trad.

I know which loose block you're on about there Gordon, it's not that one.

My description of it as a loose block is a bit misleading. It's a lump of rock sat on a shelf.

What do you think of Kipling? I don't know, I've never kippled.

I think there's a balance to be found. Loose rock is to be expected on a mountain route, and normally shouldn't require comment. It's one of the risks we have to accept when we climb those routes and we should be on the lookout for it. However where it presents a particular hazard to life then it does seem reasonable to warn people about it.  Whether or not loose rock should be trundled is another matter, and again probably depends on how great a hazard it is.

Several years ago I was on Fool's Paradise (VS 4c) when we came across a large loose block on the final pitch.  It didn't appear loose until you tried to use it, which as it is a chimney was quite hard to avoid. I posted a warning on here, but a week later someone was killed. I still wonder what more I might have done.

Absolutely not, you should continue if you truly believe you are providing a valuable service.  I'm simply expressing my opinion and there seem to be plenty of posters that support you. 

Ah, thanks for explaining. Best then if someone just chucks it late one evening when no one's about.

Tragically the climber killed on Fools Paradise was Matt Wilkes a dear friend of mine. I know we both didn't use ukc back then - the accident was in 2005. I think ukc had been going for a few years but we still kept written paper logs of our climbs so didn't really use the site.

I'm a keen user now and like others have said theres little difference from folks down the pub discussing routes and loose holds/blocks on a climb so welcome a heads up, however trivial can be a good thing.

Pete