UKH

hi everyone! john's here so let the frivolity commence

In reply to Removed User:

8 users suffering a mental cockblock.

Sorry, I'll get my coat

In reply to Removed User: Do we have any answers to the previously posed questions from the man himself?

In reply to Removed User:

john,

do you still climb?

if so, do hard scary routes still interest you or are you happy just to climb to enjoy the movement and the outdoors etc

m@

in reply to al evans: Ask him about climbing the Twelve Apostles on Liverpool Cathedral and his exhibition in there at the same time, performance art or what?

john speaking:

hi al, long time no see, what are you up to mate?

yeah it was a gas wasn't it? and thanks for cutting out the bits where the finger broke off.

(brian backstage "did you keep the finger?"

john- i found it later and stuck it up my arse- suitable disrespect)

john- the whole ascent was based upon a healthy disrespect and irreverance for the christian church. i tried to get permission to climb it but the church authorities refused with words to the effect of "this is sacred ground. there's no way you'll get the permission to climb" so what i thought about it and there was an arts programme in manchester and they wanted me to do something in liverpool so i suggested that i put on an exhibition in the cathedral and mentioned that it would be great to be able to climb it so they approached the church authorities and the sacred ground came at 5 thousand pounds.

(brian. "god comes cheap these days")

i put all the paintings by the altar and you know there's a heavy sexual content in the paintings, and two granada assistants were made to stand by the rude bits, the knobs and stuff, when the dean of the cathedral came by to see how it was going.

the climb went well. what interests me about cathedrals is that they're usually built on the site of sacred pagan ground and the performance was completed by me having a tantric wank in the bell tower - that was just amazing - which ties in with brotherhood of the bell, which i'll refer to later on.

In reply to Removed User:

Being rather famous for your twisted route names, what are favourites of other peoples?

In reply to Peter Walker:

jct- yes, when the questions stop coming in john will answer previous questions or feel free to repost them now.

In reply to Peter Walker and jude and john:
Afternoon all, It would be a good idea to get a couple of the pre asked questions answered to set the ball rolling.
I would ask how many of his routes does he regret doing as absolute crap.

In reply to m@:

john: yeah sure but i dont have the need to do anything as severe or as serious as i used to because that for me was sacred ground that you only tapped into now and again when you had a question that needed answering as regards the image-making i was concerned with at the time. climbing was never something i did for its own sake it had to tie in with my work as an image-maker.

if i attempted anything serious now i would more than likely die because there's no authentic desire within me to climb those shapes. im still bouldering and enjoy movement on rock.

In reply to Removed User:

"the performance was completed by me having a tantric wank in the bell tower"

did you find that chaffed at all?

laterzz

m@

In reply to Mike Whittaker:

john: eh f*&ker, what do you mean twisted route names, i could show you twisted route names but i choose not to, my route names reflect my work as an artist and are nothing more than a celebration of life, and if you find them twisted you should check out within yourself what you find twisted.

youve been duped by the glare of the tv screen, get out the box, open your eyes and get real, feel the breathing earth vibrating between your loins then climbing might mean something to you.

John,
What are your favourite middle grade routes, say HVS - E2?

In reply to Removed User:

nice to see you can still enjoy climbing. i remember coming in from the pub pissed ages ago and watching the short tv piece you did about the indian face etc. i must admit, it seemed to make more sense after a few pints.

great little film that.

anyway, respect for pushing the boat out when you did,

laterzz

m@

In reply to sutty:

you find one crap route of mine and i'll swallow my own knob. i only climbed when there was a need to climb and when there was authentic desire to climb. i only have 40 new routes which are catalogued in my book "one for the crow" and they're all awesome, and by the way has anybody climbed then all? - and do you know "margins of the mind" is still unrepeated after nearly 20 years. what does that say about the youth of today.

you're all lightweights.

In reply to Removed User:

Not what I find twisted, just the popular view. Well may be its not, bad choice of word perhaps, and perhaps its a compliment.

In reply to Removed User: What made you start rock climbing?

In reply to Removed User & sutty.....

(contd) .......all lightweights with a too easy life.



jct- by the way all answers are by john just going fast here so leaving them under my own name

In reply to Mike Whittaker:

eh, i choose who sucks my knob

In reply to Mike Whittaker:

<what are your favourite middle grade routes, say HVS-E2?


i don't know what that grade is. do you think i paint watercolours ?

In reply to Removed User:
In a Climber interview you talk about how
*the climb speaks a pre-literate language in images and colours that i shape-shift on to the canvas*
AND...
*Too many artists produce work out of their own neuroses,dealing in the poverty of their demented minds.When the image moves from the substance of the world into the minds of artists it naturally becomes a product of their psyche.*
(respecting the validity of your own experiance)
What makes your own mind different from the minds of other artists,that is,how is your own art not from your own
demented mind,or psyche?

Cheers,
Tim.

In reply to John2:

<what made you start rock climbing?

i thought it would keep me out of jail because i thought it would be safer than climbing buildings; i climbed 17 floors of the hull royal infirmary the day the queen came to hull for her silver jubilee. i didnt know the queen was coming to hull and it caused major panic. i was handcuffed, thrown into a cell for a day, roughly treated. i had to take my trousers off in case i hung myself with them, after what id done.

so compared to that, i thought rock climbing would be easier, which it was.

In reply to Removed User: What other artists do you admire? And what other climbers?

In reply to Removed User: The last time you saw Johnny Dawes did you part as friends? If you met him again would you go climbing with him?

In reply to Removed User:

You don't enjoy easier routes? You've just said you don't take it to the limit any more. I only climb middle grades but I love some V.Diffs Surely there is some middle ground you enjoy 'movement' over?

In reply to m@:

<did you find that chaffed at all?


theres no chaffing when you're circumcised. masturbation is the tool to creative man's television. you can have any channel at your disposal.

In reply to Removed User:
you call today's climbers lightweights because no one has repeated Margins of the Mind. This suggests that you view climbing as a competitive activity. Do you? If so, in what way?

In reply to Timmd:

who said it isnt? there's certain things you should bear in mind - when the artist ignores how art enters the lives of people then what he is doing is little more than a game. i believe the nature of art is to nourish and renew, to offer hope, not in some woolly ill-defined divine context that is fudged in the personal, not in a gentrified aesthetic way that is perfunctory nor in a reactionary role that divides people but in a potent, challenging and wise way.

this is not the business of corporate angst fashion or the foibles of the day clinging like dingleberries to the pepsi max culture but the connecting of heart and soul to a breathing world.

there is a certain responsibility- it is not a free-for-all, only available for all. shagged -in beds and soiled linen may certainly belong in a challenging and wise way but only in the hands of an artist who is wise and responsible.

In reply to Removed User:

Hi John, another man from the flatlands of Hull here!

I was intrigued by your comment about the importance of having an 'authentic desire' to climb your more extreme routes, and the likelyhood that an attempt now would have fatal consequences. Is this purely due to the absence of 'will' or are other factors also significant here, for example, physical ability? After all, you did not follow a 'training' program as many modern climbers do even when you were creating these routes.

By way of expanding this idea, just how important do you think the 'will' or 'authentic desire' are in relation to other factors such as having an intimacy and understanding of the rock, physical skill, 'athletic' ability etc?

Is climbing ultimately a 'state of mind' and are the differences between the VS climber and the E7 climber ultimately matters of will?

In reply to Jonathan T:

i dont know why people think johnny dawes and i have a problem. just because there's a difference of approach as regards climbing, doesnt mean to say you dont appreciate where the other cat comes from.

johnny and i have always been friends. it doesnt mean to say that i wont give him a mouthful of abuse the next time i see him and knock the little shit down. we're mates. i believe that the energy of a friendship should be confrontational not patronising and thats the only way a friendship can grow, otherwise you are stuck in a fetid swamp and i think johnny surrounds himself with that.

John,
Do you find it frustrating when your highly artistic and undoubtably valid views are not understood?

In reply to Mike Whittaker:

with respect, personally i wouldnt get anything out of it and i would just feel as if it was my seed falling on stony ground. each to their own experience. i dont criticise people climbing that grade. people can climb VS and its like an E8 for somebody else. its all relative. as long the desire to put yourself in that position is authentic then surely thats cool.

i once climbed a VDiff in a paper of furry slippers with chris shorter on the milestone buttress and it freaked the shit out of me. never again.


(brian - why did it freak the shit out of you?
john - i almost died!)

John,
is your celebrity important to you? If so in what way?

in reply to mike whittaker.....contd


you've got to liberate yourself sometimes. you've got to liberate your approach to get something worthwhile out of it.

chris shorter and i climbed at curbar in golf shoes with full golf caddy and umbrella and we both teed off from the top of the route - ive got bw photos of that actually - does anyone have a problem with that?

In reply to international_with_a_suffix:


what is competitive about wanting your route to be repeated? i dont hide my paintings away, they're in the world. im just shocked how technical standards have pushed through the roof since 1984. what exactly does that mean in real terms? does that mean that you lose your head in the process or that you become lazy in other ways. is it because cloggy is such a long walk from pete's eats that it hasnt been repeated ?

In reply to Removed User:

Do you view your art as a sort of responsability,that putting forward your *take* on life is somehow benificial to the people who see it?

Tim

In reply to Mike Whittaker:

i dont consider myself a celebrity, im my own man. im in nobodys pocket and i dont perform. i do my own thing as and when my work dictates it..

in reply to mike, continued:

i dont consider that i have any status in the climbing world or the art world, im just a lone operator, and its interesting living in this culture that you shouldnt expect a person in such a situation to be set up as celebrities.

In reply to Removed User:

Your references to terms such as 'authentic desire' suggest that you feel that the ideas of existentialist philosophy are of direct relevance to your climbing experiences and perhaps whole world view. Is this the case or does existentialism simply offer a few useful reference points but ultimately no real answers to the 'great questions' of life?

I am thinking in particular of your references in '...and one for the crow', for example, to a door that might 'creak open to allow a viewing'. Do you feel that through your climbing and image making you have truly come to understand, even imperfectly, what awaits in 'the void' or have you discovered that there is nothing to be discovered. If so have you come to terms with this? Further, is an acceptance of this the main reason why you no longer feel the need to explore the limits of experience via climbing extreme routes?

In reply to Removed User:
There's a famous story about you climbing a route with the rope tied around your bollocks. What was that all about then ?!

In reply to Removed User: Is cheesecake the most perfect desert ever created or is it just another sugar intake?

In reply to Mike Whittaker:

i think misunderstandings and misinterpretations of my work are important. it helps set some dialogue and to engage. what i dont like are misinterpretations taken as fact because all views are actually valid and have their place in the world.

(jct - what, even hitler's? JR- NO! my WORK cretin! because there are no answers, only questions, so keep them coming)

John,
how do you view this 'interview'? What was your initial response to the request? What are you getting out of it?

In reply to international_with_a_suffix:



ive done it several times, first on goliaths groove on stanage because i thought i couldnt climb it and it was an incentive not to fall off. secondly, naked on slate with martin crook., taking in far too tight, on a route called solvent abuse where i did fall off and managed to grab the rope before it weighted.

who do you want to shag next?

In reply to Mike Whittaker:



i am flattered and honoured to be asked to take part. as soon as jude first asked me i jumped at the chance to be interviewed by her, after all she is almost a legend in the climbing community even though she cant climb.

what am i getting out of it? i get to sit and stare at her fabulous breasts for 3 hours

john says - what was that you just typed jude?

jct says - john, i thought id answer for you as youd gone to the loo and we had to keep the ball rolling.

ok heres johns serious answer:

as i said to jude in an email, it feels like being stripped and gangbanged by strangers in a strange virtual world but im finding my way through it, im learning what i can, enjoying, and trying to answer as authentically as i can from my heart. if you believe that youre sadder than i already think you are.

In reply to Removed User: Do you understand or care why so many people were pissed off by your painting on Cloggy - where JD's flake used to be. I't seemed that you regarded the face as your property to do with as you would. climbing magnificent and totally committing routes seemed to pay homage to that piece of stone in a way that many of us could deeply respect, by contrast the painting seemed a petty selfish act of desecration.

In reply to Howard Peel:

john is about to answer this howard

John

"if you believe that youre sadder than i already think you are."

Not that I give a toss about what you think of me, please feel free to have a go - but out of sheer curiosity - one of my more pleasant qualities - why do you think 'we' are sad?

In reply to jo:

No it's just me that's sad Jo, still be nice to know.

In reply to jo:

because we are tied to our terminals by naked hero worship when we could be doing something creative. I think that's what he probably means. It's what I like to call a "cheap shot".

Or it was a badly judged throw-away line.

hi howard! are you still enjoying the painting?

i think perhaps you might be angling after some tenuous connection between my climbing and my art. why look for connections? perhaps there is not connection, no symbiotic or rational criteria. there are again, there may be many threads that interweave and interlock between the two? perhaps im slapping for holds because it isnt obvious to me. perhaps there is significance in not being aware of a connection.

i know for certain that climbing is not an activity that i can whole-heartedly say is something worthwhile in its own right. i certainly see it as a very negative form of creativity if at all. i can see no positive manifestation in an activity in which the goals are still-born....but who can say what people gain other than a climb.

climbing is nothing without a question. no question, no climb. howard, you have to find the question within yourself. this ties in with the fact that i have very little time to indulge myself in what i consider to be escapist exploits. everything i do ties in with my work as an image-maker. that is what i do and everything else falls in line. i guess i incorporate the same welcome to what is vital and potent to all aspects, and what i cannot tolerate is a frivolous approach.

for a climb to be worthwhile is to put yourself in a great deal of doubt......doubt is an important ingredient in any meaningful enterprise......which means putting yourself in danger. to set off, negotiate, learn what you can, play with the trickster, and hopefully return a little wiser with more tools with which to work.

if the authentic desire to climb is not strong there could be a danger of not coming back. being anchored to the land is a basis both for image-making and for climbing and i would like to think that my connection to the land and singing with the song of the earth helps me make the right decisions as to which way my work goes or wh
ether it goes at all.

In reply to international_with_a_suffix:

even though its pissing down and i am sat here wondering who and what this guy is (no offence) and expanding my artistic horizons through another, albeit, continually updating medium?

In reply to Timmd:Second quetion ment without malice.
Cheers,
Tim.

In reply to Removed User:
"i think perhaps you might be angling after some tenuous connection between my climbing and my art. "

Oh come on now! You are forever chundering on about how your climbing informs your art !!!!

In reply to jo:
I am expanding my artistic horizons? are you watching paint dry too?

In reply to Removed User:

Not sure I understand that one John....care to expand or explain? Why can't we just climb cos we enjoy it. Are you saying we should question why we enjoy it?

F

In reply to Fraser:

Hello....HELLO?!

(Where did everyone go???)

In reply to Fraser:

OK - Game Over. Life's too short to watch a static monitor.

Cheers to all


F

In reply to Fraser:

In the absense of Mr R, everyone feel free to ask me questions about my climbing exploits. I also draw a bit and I have a degree in Boloque speak.

In reply to kevin stephens:

john is just answering this - we got disconnected, sorry.

In reply to Fraser:
Dont worry frazer, it is possibly half time or they may be watching the tennis or jct might have gone for a bonk

In reply to sutty:

Hey! I'm trying to eat here!

In reply to Removed User:

ok - this time I'm REALLY going.

Ta-ta everybody...ta-ta.


F

In reply to Fraser:
Some more sausage Frazer, go on you know you want some

sigh......

yawn.....


so, Jo, it's raining up there is it?

In reply to international_with_a_suffix:


bloody pissing it down mate!

In reply to kevin stephens:



john:

another wanker from the suburbs sold to the great "small boy" show. who said i caused damage to the indian face? this issue has always been one of "who shouts the loudest" - johnny has always shouted, he likes to be heard...he must have more to hide?

lets get some perspective. johnny has never been happy with his ascent. his tactics were shoddy and shameful and he has laid the ground barren by his ascent and the repeats so far bleak....but i will keep to the point!

johnny bashed a 3 inch blade peg behind the flake (not a rurp as he originally said) ... which subsequently came away after the winter ice had cracked it open a bit more...(let us not talk about the pre-placed gear)!

it is the single act of smashing this peg behind the flake that caused it to come off. this is fact...and everybody who has seen the flake since (at my old house) including nick dixon the other day, has agreed that only a tiny section of good rock was holding it to the face. the placing of the peg was the deciding factor.

so let us re-phrase the question to johnny: "johnny, how can you reconcile yourself to damaging the rock on your route, the indian face....and why couldnt you feel the sense of "place" and duty to offer back to the world more than the arbitrary and senseless diatribe that has no place in these hills"

climbing should put you in touch with such balance...if not it will poison you.

by the way, people think johnny showed "true creativity" by naming the route the indian face after the image that appeared to him on the rock. bullshit! it was named gabbut, a local loon of llanberis, who pointed out to johnny. (gabbut is now an addict and homeless, begging in the streets....and i have more time for him than the middle class tw*ts protecting their f*cked up egos)

the painting i put on the scar was heartfelt....personal and of no perminence. it was painted in acrylic so it would wash off after a short while. it is all too apparent and sad to observe the so-called respect that the rock climber has for the rock!

god has nothing to do with such offerings, nor has any goddesses, nor anyone else. i dont have to justify it. this does not mean, "f*ck you." but f*ck you!

In reply to Removed User:

Hi John! I thought that you might say something like that!

'Magpies' is looking fine and offers something of an alternative window out of this somewhat rundown terraced house. Lisa has now become accustomed to its presence and no longer sits facing the other way...


To go back to the existantial references I think you are right to suggest that we must form our own questions and live our own experiences -indeed this is what is at the core of existentialism itself. However, to be an artist or image maker, or even writer of books is to be a communicator, or at least to attempt to be. Engaging in all these activities imply that you have something to express or communicate and, surely, it is valid to seek confirmation or clarification of what is intended?

Still, as you say, one must live one's own visions...


On a more down to earth point, have you got your stolen penis back?



P.s With regards to the hero worship suggestion made earlier anyone who has met John would probably agree that John does not set himself up to be anybody's hero. In fact most people would seem to be more intrigued by his work than are simply impressed by the routes he has climbed. Unfortunately most climbers seem to have little really interesting to say - I might even suggest that buying OTE is much more an act of 'hero worship'!

In reply to international_with_a_suffix:
where are you ? is it fine there or raining?

In reply to jo:



john: dont take it personal. i dont know you. you are coming from virtual space. what am i to think? surely, it should be up to you to prove youre not. dont be defensive, desensitise yourself, im really smiling, isnt that what virtual space is all about?

In reply to Removed User:

You called us sad. You haven't answered why.
The real point is that it is up to you to prove yourself worthy of a rocktalk session. Taking cheap shots at your audience is not a good way to do that. And I'm really smiling too .

In reply to Removed User:
John, you said;
it is the single act of smashing this peg behind the flake that caused it to come off. this is fact...and everybody who has seen the flake since (at my old house) including nick dixon the other day, has agreed that only a tiny section of good rock was holding it to the face. the placing of the peg was the deciding factor

Are you sure? if he had not used the pegwould not the weather have caused it to come off anyway, possibly with you or someone else grasping it to themself as they fell. Couldn't he have done you a service by putting the peg in?

In reply to Fraser et al

john: question yourself - why you have a need to enjoy because i find the simple act of enjoyment can often be an escapist mechanism. surely there is a natural joy beyond that of enjoying. are you looking for a form of entertainment? do you have too much time on your hands? are you bored? depressed? anxious for some neurotic release? do you feel helpless? do you think climbing brings the same enjoyment as compulsive shopping? do you need to purchase, to acquire? are you attracted more to the culture than to anything meaningful within yourself? could it just as easily be surfing or ski-ing or juggling? are you a blank space, yearning to be fulfilled? do you see climbing as a sport? a pastime? a hobby? a fashion? to join in lightheartedly? after all, this is the age of the free-for-all, wallowing in the style of your choice-style without content. should you beware of the serious and the meaningful.

In reply to international_with_a_suffix:

(jct - international, our computer crashed and some of johns answers take a while to think out and then write up, please be patient)

john : keep your boloques where they should be and they should be bearing fruit.

In reply to Removed User:
Did you train for your routes? If so, how did you train - by doing easier routes or using climbing walls, finger boards etc?

In reply to Removed User:
You have a life that you enjoy, some people do not, they have to work at jobs they do not particularly like and climbing does give them the escape or change of life that keeps them sane. you are either very lucky or completely batty.

Hi John

Mick

just got up

it was nice...we like nice

In reply to Howard Peel:

On a more down to earth point, have you got your stolen penis back?

(jct: at a recent ape index performance in sheffield, his papier mache throb went on walkabout and has still not turned up)


i appreciate what youve said there howard, and as regards my penis, its still out there in the world, and may i add a warning to whoever has it that i am not responsible for its actions nor will be held accountable for anything it may do because its fully charged and well trained and the weak at heart may suffer - eh grimer?

In reply to sutty:

this f*cking christian martyrdom that you have allowed into your troubled life is not my problem. who said my life my life was easy? we all have problems and we all deal with them. smile and the world smiles with you.

i take offence if you think i am batty. just because i put myself in a position where i can enjoy problems and can turn negativity into something worthwhile. you have to work at this and its never too late.

In reply to Removed User:

A well known climber told me some stories about the Fraternity of the Bell. Did this exsist?

In reply to international_with_a_suffix:


john: you are not my audience. it's judes audience. i was asked to do the interview. prior to this i didnt know anything about rocktalk.

In reply to Removed User:

Any chance of moving of the subject of JR's perishing flesh.................

Do you still get out climbing?

And if so what's the last route you did?

Mick
Bishop. CA

(watch it Jude, I've just had my second expresso)

I don't know you either. I don't know what you are to think hence my question - WHY do you think we are sad?

I am rarely defensive - almost never sensitive (one of my lesser qualities) and I am laughing out Loud.

Virtual space - nope - I would be asking these questions to your face however I can't get to Judes/Brians house so i have resorted to asking them on here - and I still don't have an answer from you.


I am not looking for an argument John and I'm not looking for agreement. I have read from here and I have empathised with a few of your/our feelings - throwaway comments rarely go without some sort of precognitive thought - I am interested in yours, as a fellow climber.

In reply to Removed User: But isn't that one of the things that artists are there for, to try to give some insight into people's motivations and the meaning of their lives? Do you see your art as relevant only to your own life, or as illuminating the lives of people in general?

In reply to sutty:
<Are you sure? if he had not used the pegwould not the weather have caused it to come off anyway, possibly with you or someone else grasping it to themself as they fell. Couldn't he have done you a service by putting the peg in?

john: there are many flakes on that rock and they've been there a few million years. if you smash pegs behind them all, they'd all come off instantly. doesnt that answer the point?

In reply to Removed User:

Popped back in, on the off chance things were moving again...


"Act of enjoyment"? Now you've really got me there. I dont perform enjoyment - maybe you do, but you're going to have to give the rest of us some instruction. As far as enjoyment being an "escapist mechanism", that probably says more about you and your personal circumstances than it does to me. I dont specifically seek enjoyment per se, instead of some other mental/phsyical condition, it just happens. Its surely nicer to feel better ie experience enjoyment rather than the opposite?

Without troughs there are no peaks. Who'd want to live the life of a flat-liner?

"NAtural joy beyond that of enjoying"? You mean just being at peace....or just 'being' is more rewarding that having enjoyment for that moment. Making the most of each activity, even if that is non-activity.

God, I'm getting so far up my own arse I'm getting tooth-ache!


F

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

john: my flesh is taut as steel mick, hows yours ?

In reply to jo:

drop it Jo...no one's sad here.............

Mick

In reply to Removed User:

"john: my flesh is taut as steel mick, hows yours ?"

just like my heart:caloused, rotting in parts and wart-ridden dear doctor

M

In reply to jo:

john: dear jo - you have to remember that we are communicating with this man-made virtual space which is but a mimicry of the eternal virtual space where all things are known. perhaps i presume too much but its in the nature of this man-made space to dwell and entertain itself on misinterpretations, misunderstandings, tangeants and you should ask yourself, can any meaningful dialogue come from such a space?

In reply to Removed User:

John

Most of your answer was interesting but totally irelevant to my question. I was not motivated by (nor interested in) any opinions of JD, if that was what you meant by "small boy from the suburbs" but a respect for the natural form of the rock. If the paint washed off after a few weeks, then no big deal. I think that at the time most people had a similar view at the time.

>the painting i put on the scar was heartfelt....personal and of no perminence. it was painted in acrylic so it would wash off after a short while. it is all too apparent and sad to observe the so-called respect that the rock climber has for the rock!

That I can understand

In reply to Removed User:

John:do you view parts of the modern climbing scene as self regarding,as regards to grades and status/ability,that it has changed in ethos?
Cheers,
Tim.

In reply to John2:


my art is not at all personal, there is no personal agenda within my work in any way. if there was it would fail and become a scribble. the world does not benefit from viewing other peoples' dirty washing.

i dont consider it to be the artists' job to labour over the role and status of art but there should be certain unseen factors at the back of his mind that may determine the strength and potency of his work. these are essential qualities that make up the language of art. for me this is part of the objective creative process from which this ancient sapiens can run. free from political religious or moral agenda. these criteria are mere ingredients for compiling, understanding and interpretation of the key issues of the day. they are tools that help engage with the audience. the artists job is a critical balancing of these tools to bring about a rich and meaningful understanding of what it means to be alive now. this MAY be a spiritual invocation and the world MAY be moved on by it .

In reply to Removed User:
etc....etc..entertain itself on misinterpretations, misunderstandings, tangeants and you should ask yourself, can any meaningful dialogue come from such a space?


Answer to the final question: Yes, meaningful dialogue can arise as long as the participants obey certain ground rules that all dialogues must follow......other wise we have discussion (percusion...bang bang bang) and argument.

You'll always get misinterpretations and misunderstandings wherever we communnicate...this one is just more prone...

M

In reply to Removed User: Some would say tish and fipsy, others wouldnt. Is the moralometer currently reading less than 2 morals per head?

In reply to Removed User:

Ok - someone's clearly now taking something they shouldn't.

Where's Al Downie when you need him, to say... 'ARSE' ?


F

*outta here*

In reply to Fraser:

ease up, all im saying is the joy you seek an escape?

"he chases his phallus around toyland in a perpetual neurotic state. sometimes in a rare momentary stillness or when done talk in alcohol, all went blown limp from some sexual act attempted or otherwise, he will crank his thick cranium unaturally upwards at the great sky and raise a voice of terror. get back! he hunts. he hunts time.

time hunts him, he is emerged in banal adolescence. the life he so energetically seeks does not exist. it is really a blissful promise of death"

that is what im saying. does that make more sense?

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

"john: my flesh is taut as steel mick, hows yours ?"

just like my heart:caloused, rotting in parts and wart-ridden dear doctor

M


john: just my kind of woman.

In reply to Removed User:
re sticking finger from cathedral up arse - surprised it would fit as you already seem to have your head firmly wedged in place. What else is hiding up there?

In reply to Removed User:

<...that is what im saying. does that make more sense?>

Nope it doesn't.

There's being an artist (originality, honest intent, integrity etc) and there's doing something merely to make yourself feel good, and trying to justify/obfuscate it with verbosity. The latter is simply masturbation.

There's a fine line between being an artist and being a wanker. That's what I'm saying.

Each to their own.



F *disapponted*

In reply to Removed User:

Is the fact that sex and climbing are intimately related due to their very nature of being purely gratuitous pleasures (except when the former is used for the species multiplication)?

In reply to Timmd:

John:do you view parts of the modern climbing scene as self regarding,as regards to grades and status/ability,that it has changed in ethos?
Cheers,
Tim.


john: climbing is still little more than first generation. i think there has always been the practitioners that have dwelled in a more esoteric mystical space but generally, in the words of sven berlin (st ives group poet , painter and sculptor) climbers tend to have no imagination.

and then there is the sport of climbing....which as far as MY approach and philosophy is concerned, far from being modern actually takes it back into the dark ages. dont get me wrong. the moves are impressive, but dont be fooled. moves can always be made if you have the time and effort to make them and this is a foregone conclusion. physical prowess is but a small part of the art. dynamic movements and the poetry and control of style are beautiful to watch, and yes, there is an element of magic. this is worked for and trained for in the physical world...the movement is exterior...the body is moving and the mind is gracefully in control. this reminds me of the approach of johnny dawes, and he is one of the greatest. but to analyise the state of the art in terms of that approach can lead to a disfiguring of its essence.

my approach has always been different. the moves are irrelevant and when joined together and practiced that is all they are, a series of moves, choreagraphed into a whole climb. for me, this is climbing by numbers...a retrograde development in search of the ultimate move...the criteria of sport. i have no time for sport...i have never been a sportsman. i think i have been a practicioner in a certain approach to climbing that is not a thing in itself. this is important to me... i advocate a softer more spiritual approach to movement on rock...and how when the rock climber understands the nature of ascent he will have no need to touch rock.

the movement i refer to above in moving through the rock i see and understand as being quite static and passive...where can it go? it can so easily be lost and is far from healing. the movement is what you see and it can so easily poison you or at the very least set you up for depression.

if you want to know more about climbing as an instrument for viewing come back to us on this theme.

In reply to Removed User: Evening all. I was at the gym so missed this. Quite a bit to read eh (while I'm eating quiche).

/scrolls to top

In reply to Jamesbmp:

<which morals and which head are you referring to?

In reply to basil woode:

john: the twelve apostles

In reply to Removed User:

One could reuse this speech for any sport: when I swim long distance in lakes, I have the same feelings of unity with nature, harmony of movement, integrity of breathing, aesthestic appreciation of my surroundings, etc...


There's nothng special about climbers. There are like other sports people: selfish, obsessed, socially maladjusted, difficult to live with.

In reply to Removed User:

"masturbation is the tool to creative man's television. you can have any channel at your disposal. "

john, i've been cracking one off for the past 2 hours now and i still can't get MTV. any tips?

laterzz

m@

brian - what is your favourite biscuit?

john- this week i am mostly using beech laminated biscuits as used in carpentry for fixing joints. when used with pva glue they expand into the joint. thankyou for your question. apart from that i am sweet enough.

In reply to m@:

i suggest logging on to blackdicksupwhitechicks.com - its the final answer for those without imagination.

In reply to Removed User: Were our new routes climbed ground up on sight, or did you inspect the rock beforehand to determine the feasibility of the route?

In reply to Removed User:

You speak like you have some marketing mission to fulfill. What is it you are trying to justify the climbing or the painting?

In reply to Jonathan T:


you can only become a cheesecake afficionado if you eat it the day after shoving it up your wife's tush.

In reply to Removed User:

Is this you "selling point": being overtly sexual in your comments and paintings?

In reply to francoise:

dear francoise: i dont think there is anything gratuitous in sex or climbing, and i think ive covered that point - it must be a worthwhile enterprise, surely there is a relationship between sex and everything if the energy that youre talking about is right.

In reply to Removed User:

john,

when was the last time you laughed out loud and what was it that you found funny?

and do you have a favourite piece of music?

laterzz

m@

In reply to Removed User:

I don't see how climbing can be considered worthwhile. What are you contributing to hhumanity when you open a new route? Are people going to be less miserable?

The only reason you can afford to open new routes is that you live in a rich society which can afford parasites who do not contribute to the wealth of the community.

contd...in reply to francoise.....


surely being french you are a discerning female and have criteria to choose the type of sexual partner you require. surely the energy of gratuitous is flaccid.

In reply to francoise:


i have nothing to sell im just answering questions that are coming to me and im following my heart. there is no marketing. there is nothing for sale. i am not set up to perform. no-one is holding my strings.

In reply to Removed User:

Afternoon John & Jude, entertaining interview so far. BTW I thought the earlier mentioned video of the ascent of that cathedral (interspersed with you harassing innocent people in the square) was excellent, very entertaining.



Best use for Curbar I say!!

In reply to m@:



10 seconds ago and will continue every 10 seconds from now on.

my favourite music is the CD taken from my next book "soft explosive hard embrace" and it is based on a composition from textural sounds recorded at dinorwig quarry, llanberis. it records the souls spirit and legacy of abuse left behind on the flanks of elidir fawr.

In reply to Removed User: Havin not read mcuh of the above just a question on your reason and experience for climbing. You say that when you were pushing yourself to the limit, you were finding answers, or creating images for art. To me to reach your true peak performance on a route where you fall you die, involves having a completely and utterly clear mind, you understand where you are what your doing and why ure doing it. Surely, images and other things that come into your head are a mental response to shitting yourself, trying to either shut down or divert your attention away from what you are doing. My point is if the human body performs at its optimum with a clear mind, do you think you could have climbed harder?

In reply to Removed User:

I have not seen you art and I have not climbed your routes. But I am always suspiscious of people who have to wrap up whatever they do in some kind of pseudo philosophical tosh. If the art is good it speaks for itself. If the climbs are good, they will be redone and become classics.

In reply to francoise:


i agree. why dont you buy my book? lets meet up for coffee and discuss.

In reply to Fiend:

there is no such thing as an innocent person

LOL!

In reply to Removed User: Climbing is fun - discuss.

In reply to Removed User:

"i agree. why dont you buy my book? lets meet up for coffee and discuss. "

Great book John. Brilliant.

Mick

In reply to francoise: You are not a good enough climber to climb any of John's routes and you have not explained why you think what he says about the art which you have not seen to be 'pseudo philosophical tosh'.

In reply to Big Baz:

climbing is not a bodily response for me. it is like a ritual. you are entering the sacred space, ie the rock climb. it is like a ceremony. youve entered a ceremony in which you have to negotiate your path through which is not of this world. the images that manifest are from this otherness not a manifestation of having shat myself.

as i have stated this is the objective creative process.

In reply to Fiend:

Discuss? What kind of instruction is that?

Climbinng is fun? Take apart.

Of course climbing is fun, there's no debate about that. But it's also a metaphor for other things...duh..

Fucck...anyone got an Ekans Pokemon card.....I've lost mine...

M

In reply to Removed User:

That's the point: I would rather do stuff (climbing, sex, swimming, painting, sculpt) rather than discuss.

I climbed with some top climbers (not British) and those I respect most are the silent ones.

In reply to Removed User:

bloody hell jude thats a bit deep for sat afternoon. keep it at a lower level

In reply to John2:
and you have not explained why you think what he says about the art which you have not seen to be 'pseudo philosophical tosh'.
It's JR who is being interviewed. We ask the questions and he either replies or chooses not to. His responses are without doubt within the realm of "philosophical tosh", but you'll have to interview me to find out why I think that.

In reply to Mickfax USA:


I don't see a lot of mentions of it in what John is saying, not just about his own climbing but about other people's climbing too.

In reply to John2:

You don't know who I am, so keep your judgement about my climbing ability. No, I am not some show off sports climber, but I am quite OK for my age and gender in other disciplins and might be able to show you a few things.

In reply to francoise: You are the wife of a wealthy management consultant and have worked for the NHS in the past. When did you last lead an E5?

In reply to John2:

So leading an E5 is your criteria a competent mountaineer? I don't even know what E5 means. And to the professional background of my husband and myself, what has it got to do with it? and if we are wealthy, so what?

In reply to francoise:


How f*ckin steroetypical Francoise....so you like the strong silent type......Harlin?

M

In reply to 666DENVER666:

I love the line in your profile - "I really dont like climbing but im not that bad at it so keep doing it. ".

It's so totally not John Redhead that I just had to expose it to everyone here !!!

John2 and francoise. The new Sloper and JCT !!

In reply to Fiend:

i dont enjoy climbing for its own sake. the joy is a manifestation of what it can conjur. i could elaborate but after 4 hours were finally going for a break.

i see that my seed is spawning new threads which proves everything ive been saying about the energy is whats important. its good to see my eggs are hatching in virtual space.



jct- thanks everyone for joining in. we're going to have a break and might get back online in a bit.

meanwhile you can check all johns boloques at www.faschen.org/john.redhead

btw next week john will answer many of the original questions on the other two threads in a long mail to me which i will put onto a new thread.

In reply to Fiend:

Of course not: he uses climbing as a metaphor for his splendid art (and his sad profession). He's being serious.

But it's fun at the same time.

Anyway Jude: have you got the camcorder and live video feed set up.

This is getting tedious.

When does the threesome begin?

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

I am just a normal woman...and I bet you like the sultry, big breasted, long legs, full lips types...how typical!

In reply to Removed User:

You are an angel Jude. Thanks for doing all this...say hi to Bri for me love will ya..and JR...you're PHAT dude.....

Mick

(*and is your best mate DEv there?)

In reply to Removed User: Cool thanks for doing this. BTW, I *DO* enjoy climbing for it's own sake and I'm very happy with that - I find that the purest, simplest and most natural way to approach the activity.


Welcome to the wonderful world of the internet =).


Bad Gateway
The following error occurred:
A DNS lookup error occurred. The host was not found.


Cool I really want to know the answer to that question I posted ages ago.

In reply to francoise:

I didn't say what I liked Franny.......I don't go for types, I hate boxes and categories...(woops...apart from in guidebooks)

so up yours darling..

love

Mick
xxxxxx

In reply to Removed User:
Or you could try this address;

http://www.fachwen.org/john.redhead/

that will get you to his site

In reply to Removed User:

You regard where you climb,as a sacred space,and can see that other people regard church as a sacred space,*the sacred ground came for five thousand pounds*.

Given that you find wrong the *desecration* of rock,how do you justify carrying out acts that religeous people at that church would see as *desecration*.I am not religeous my self,but i have respect for other peoples beliefs.

Knowing that church-goers regard churches as sacred ground.

Cheers,
Tim.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Hey Mick. You were really respectful to Mr Redhead. How come the rest of us don't get such polite treatment?

And he doesn't use climbing as a metaphor for his art. You appear to have misunderstood him, even though he was clear as clear can be (shurely shome mishtake for damn shure)

In reply to Timmd:And that you showed a *healthy dissrespect for the christian church*

Tim.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:


ROFL! Quite a faux pas there eh...

In reply to sutty: Ah thanks.

Oh wait it's a Flash site, f*ck that.

In reply to Timmd:It is missquoted but my point is there.

Cheers,
Tim

In reply to Removed User: Thanks for setting all this up, Jude.

yes, thanks JCT.

(and BrianT for misc services, of course)

In reply to international_with_a_suffix:

Because I'm star - struck (*just like Jo ; o )

Climbing as a metaphor for his art. I'm claiming he does despite what he says.

He's a bit like Jude in some respects: very transparant.

Hey and come on Internationaley I'm always respectful, especially to you because you talk sense.

Mick

In reply to Fiend:
Its not bad as flash sites go, I am on a modem and it loaded quite fast.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Not respectful to me: who allowed you to call me darling? You don't call the men on this site darling, do you?

In reply to francoise:

He calls you darling because you are french totty and us men are not.

(thinks: that didn't help really, did it.)


Bloody big smiley face (before I get into trouble....)

In reply to Timmd: Errrr the J-J mutant creature did say it was going offline now, which is why you ain't got no reply. Very good question though!!

P.S. The Medusa you want is at Ravensdale.

In reply to international_with_a_suffix:

Sorry, got to check some vocabulary before I form a view on your post! Can't ask anybody now, I have only got kids in the house at the moment in case "totty" is rude!

In reply to Removed User:

For JR's other site- the one with the 'Movement on Rock (E9/6C) broadcast on it and stuff from '...and one for the crow' go to http://www.fachwen.org/seriousclowning

In reply to francoise:

totty = disrespectful slang for a hot woman.





(and it was a joke !!!!!)

In reply to francoise:
totty= girls to chat up. not rude, just a saying .

eg, I am going looking for totty. Means I am going looking for tasty girls.

In reply to francoise:

because you are a darling francoise and when i meet you i will smother you in kisses and cover you with flowers, my darling.....

off to take the kids for a walk..

m
xx
very slippery and serpentine

In reply to Fiend: Thats the one,its a great route,i seconded it.Nice to climb in the summer,the rock glows with the sunlight.I just deleated after re-reading.

Cheer
Tim.

In reply to international_with_a_suffix:

I will accept the compliment, then. Thank you!

(lucky I deleted my photo on my profile!)

In reply to francoise:

actually i do call some silent type men on here darling....

totty traverse V1
crumpet at the crag V2
a bit of fluff V8

all at the Happy Boulders...FA's Mick Ryan and the hard one by Kevin Thaw...(noow there's a climber...and the silentish-type in a northern macho kind of way...you'd like Kevin, Fran...he's a demon on ice, dry tooling and the alpine arena...one of the very best)..

I prefer real life to art.

regards,

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:



Mick pfrrrrrt! I was 'avin a larf - I'm bored and the PC was on....

Now I have sultana scones...

john is really upset that no-one has accused him of mysogeny. he had some really good answers. however next week he'll talk more about this subject

thanks everyone for participating

sigh. better get changed into my pink sequined bikini top for this glitterati party we've been invited to tonight in llaberis, chuckle.


actually, me and brian are going for a bath first, sweaty stuff all this typing

adieu for now

In reply to jo:


Darn it girl. Can you be serious for one bloody minute?

Hey I've got a Farfetch'd....#83 in your Pokedex....a ducklike Pokemon that uses sprigs of green onions as miniswords...They are almost extinct and very rare.....I have two, traded with a Trainer near Vermillion City.

How phat and rads is dat, duddette..?

BEEEEAAAAAATTTTCCCHHHHHEEETTTTEEE

Mick

In reply to Removed User:

When is the interview follow-up?

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Gosh, that is really nice! You can call me darling anytime! and I would love to meet your Kevin.

Francoise - the totally, unashamedly prosmicuous (climbing wise)

In reply to Removed User:

Bet he's really jealous of me an' the SMC!!

Even tho'
Foz wiz wrang aboot that as weel.....

In reply to Stac Pollaidh: aright pal, fooz it gangin?

In reply to Gwizz:Naw bad Gwizz, aye annat, no? aye...
Fooz it yersel'?

In reply to Stac Pollaidh: positively educational sir

In reply to head wind:ahv jus' slammed the DellbothY door shut, it wiz gettin' a bit drafty...

In reply to Steve Brown: over to you sir.......

In reply to Removed User: Dear God-brilliant,bold and talented climber he may be but the man makes my f**kin' teeth itch.I wonder if he really believes the psychobabble?Then again,didn't Johhny Rotten say "Ever get the feeling youv'e been had?"

In reply to big al:

Shit - missed all the fun - so what's JR really like Jude? He scares me to death, but then I've always been a bit of a coward when I can't quite communicate with someone.

In reply to Dave Collier: Missed all this cos I was climbing, but I think John IS an artist and his art is relevant to climbing, it encompasses satire, Duchamp, performance art and actually skilled artistry, In his perception, quite rightly, his climbs were part of his art, and thats the way it is, even if he was taking the piss its art. john is an artist of great value, particularly in an art starved medium like climbing is today.

In reply to Removed User:
Blimey, i've got a head ache (clutches fore-head in pain) how sad is that, that i read all this tosh?

In reply to Removed User: John Redhead is wierd!
How can one person use the word authentic so much?

Maybe someone should trot up and repeat MotM for him. Any takers?

In reply to Dave Collier: I went to him with an open mind, and found an open mind looking back at me. Scary? Not at all. Why should he be scary. Bumped into Mick Poynton in The Heights. Now he was scary, in a vampirish sort of way. Some little cheeky sod tried to tell me and Jude that he was a Great Man and worthy of an interview, but he didn't do anything to interest us. If it hadn't been time to go I might have told the cheeky little f*ck to go back to sucking Poynton's knob and get out of my face.
John was great. I understand what he says about not being a climber. He climbs, but to be "A Climber" has a different connotation. I'm a climber, but I'm not A Climber.
He was funny, articulate, a great host. ALIVE.

In reply to big al:

I'm not sure that it would be fair to say "Ever get the feeling you've been had?". However, the following from his book might give an insight into JR's approach to life. (And don't forget he calls his art and performance 'Serious Clowning'!). The passage relates to an encouter with Dafydd, the colourful character who 'owns' much of Snowden including 'Cloggy' and his placing a sign 'banning' climbing on the cliff.

'Old folk have an uncanny knack of putting you off balance, and for a moment I went along in sympathy with his plight...I admire his energy, his passion, his protest. I was even starting to appreciate the sign he had written prohibiting sport...because he had a mischevious 'air' about him, not being totally serious...a tongue in cheek...and obvious wind up...a strength.'

In reply to Howard Peel:

if someone is incoherent, and I point out that incoherence, and I am then told that the incoherence was in some way tongue in cheeck, then I don't feel I've been had.
You only get 'had' if there is enough information within the wind up to inform you that it is indeed a wind up (see Chris Morris, for example). JR doesn't give any hints that he is anything but incoherent.
Great rock climber mind, but he would probably have contempt for such a conpliment.

In reply to francoise:

How can you say that Francoise? I am so hurt , BTW I really do think of my new routes as giving something back to other climbers, I have actually had letters from people thanking me for the enjoyment they have got from my routes, it touches me and makes new routes worthwhile, there is no ego trip involved, as I am sure John feels with his paintings and his performances.

In reply to John2:

John, I think thats out of order, whatever Francoise and her spouse are is irrelevant even if you are correct, she has her right to express opinions whatever grade she climbs (and actually shes very competent) not all of us lead E5 but we have right to our opinions.

In reply to Al Evans:

Sorry, did not count the Westway as climbing!

In reply to Al Evans: Come on Al, I was responding to her words 'You do not know who I am'. No more, no less.

In reply to John2: Ok, John, but you dont know Francoise, and anyway, where were you on Sunday?

In reply to Al Evans:

What did you borrow off them in the first place, Al?

When I do new routes and go out in search of new areas I do it for myself. I also like naming routes and areas and then documenting my activities and broadcasting about it. I get a lot out of it physically and mentally (hey...maybe spiritually).....But no way would I be as pompous as to say I'm doing it for other climbers, that's just prentencious (f*ck I wish I could spell that word).

However as it happens other climbers do get a kick out of some of the routes I've done, and some of the documentation. Hey and it feels right good when they tell me they do (whether in letter form, via email, or better - over a pint)....I also get the opposite....climbers telling me what a f*cking dick I am.

>I have actually had letters from people thanking me for >the enjoyment they have got from my routes, it touches >me and makes new routes worthwhile, there is no >ego trip involved, as I am sure John feels with his >paintings and his performances.

That's really sweet Al...the bit about letters and it "touching" you. The rest my dear fiend is pure bullshit....well not quite, there's a bit of nasty dog shit in there as well...

There is ego trip involved in any art Alan, and in your new routes. There's nothing wrong with this. Please accept it. And it is not the sole reason for art or new routes (although how can we mention the two in the same sentence)..........

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: Man you don't do nice either......

In reply to Al Evans:

" BTW I really do think of my new routes as giving something back to other climbers, I have actually had letters from people
thanking me for the enjoyment they have got from my routes"

Are you serious?

Soapsuds really made my 2001 climbing year - thanks soo much.

Just for people who haven't done the route its a slippery pile of choss.

Giving something back... spare me

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Well god I suppose, except that I'm an atheist, but Mick you are wrong, if it was ego I would like my harder routes best, but actually my favourite contribution is Jean Jeanie which is VS, its a good feeling climbing something good for the first time, but only if I think someone else is going to enjoy it subsequently.
Like when I made films or just shot telly, I got a buzz but only if I thought someone was going to like it, I'd do my best to make something interesting but at times I would be dissatisfied because it just didnt work or wasnt interesting, surely thats just like Johns Art or indeed his climbs, sometimes I did stuff just to make people think and wake them up, but basically there always had to be a buzz that they affected somebody else in a positive way.

In reply to Al Evans:

Al...what you have described is doing stuff (art, tv, new routes) for pure egotistical gratification from others...

As examplified in your statement (taken in context):

"I got a buzz but only if I thought someone was going to like it"

Hey and that's fine. Make peace with it bro'.

Whereas Me...I'm a selfish bastard: I do stuff for me, and if other people like it.....whoa....double ego gratification...I'm quids in. But primarily my reasons are selfish.

Now don't take this out of context...we are talking new routes (I'm actually really kind and caring)...my cup doth overflow with my love gigantic...

love,

Mick

In reply to Keith_D:

I'm actually being really nice Keith.

Wadda ya want me to be dishonest and not tell Al Evans the error of his ways?

That would be nasty.

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: Its cool Mick, I think we are probably coming from the same area but just saying it differently and maybe emphasising different aspects of it. saw a cat today with a lizard in its mouth, that was special too!

In reply to Al Evans:

Jean-Jeanie is a brilliant route Al. It's nice to know you climbed it first (I love history - especially ancient Greek) and I'm sure you are very proud of it, and with good reason.

It's just that I hate this "I'm giving something back to climbing" business, as a primary reason for doing something. I find it very false.

I get patted on the back for doing access and conservation work, but think about it, without access and conservation efforts I wouldn't be able to climb (in nice outdoor places) and I wouldn't have a business.

Mick

In reply to Simon Cox:

Lol, ok Soapsuds is not a classic but it has got a star and probably the biggest first ascent team of any Peak District route which at least makes it historic. Anyhow I still like it and feel pleased with it :-p

In reply to Al Evans:

And I bet the whole teams motivation for doing the route was to give something back to the climbing community.

Well thanks a lot Al..

M

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: Mick I genuinely have difficulty with this. You work for Rockfax which is a profit making organisation, I like your books and I buy them but I have done lots of volountry work on guides which I did to put stuff back into the sport that I have loved all my life, I dont think you should be so dismissive of a philosophy that looks on establishing new routes and working on guides being at least a little more than altruistic.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
No we were all pissed!

In reply to Al Evans: We turned up at Coastguard without looking at the tide tables, so we couldn't get to Coastguard south because it was high tide. As we were going back it started to rain with the wind blowiung in from the west coast, so we ended up at the Cuttings yet again.

In reply to Al Evans:

Am in total agreement with you there. Even if there is a place for commercial initiatives, mountaineering would not be the same without all the voluntary efforts of lots of participants and just for starters climbers helping other climbers.

In reply to Al Evans:

There are lots of reasons why people do "good works". And I'm sure that people who do "good works" do so for a mixture of reasons.

Some reasons maybe concerned with giving unconditional help to others - some argue that that kind of love doesn't exist. That the joy of giving is a payback.

There are lots of other benefits to doing "good works" be it putting up new routes, doing so-called voluntary guidebook work or manninng the phones at the Samaritans.

Hands up if you can honestly say that you do "good works" for totally selfless reasons

And remember if you put your hand up, you are not being selfless.

I just hate pompous people saying that they do this or that for the good of other people alone.

That is a bare-faced lie....or to put it less antagonisticcally.....a mild form of neurosis that we must all be aware of and try to cure ourselves of.

Mick

In reply to francoise:

I'm in total agreement with you there Francoise.

Voluntary work is essential, just don't kid yourself that you are being totally selfless by volunteering.

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
why does doing something for someone else have to have a motive, I pick up stuff for people at the shops as it is easy for me, I am going anyway and it only takes me ten minutes more. What I get back is the knowledge they do not have to worry about running out of something, they may be grateful but I would feel a git if I did not do it. Being nice to someone costs nothing, it makes life pleasanter for all.

In reply to sutty:

Like smiling to the guy who sweeps the streets and saying hello to him. What's my motive? Ah, being nice to others makes you feel better about yourself. What a selfish bitch I am. I should growl at him because that would make me feel bad...

In reply to francoise:

Sounds like aristocratic pretensions to me honey bun, and you know what happened to the 'aristos' where you come from.

: o )

G

Sorry, I thought I was still on the 'arguments' thread.

In reply to francoise:

What makes you think that you are making the guys day Francoise?

>What's my motive? Ah, being nice to others makes you feel better about yourself.

Yes it does. But there is nothing wrong with that, along as you are aware of it.

>What a selfish bitch I am. I should growl at him >because that would make me feel bad...

That might make him laugh. Then you might make his day?

I think it might be best not to expect much from your "good works", just do them without thinking like Sutty....a true buddha.....

Sutty...the buddha..the voice of compassion inside a man...

If I meet him on the road. I must kill him.

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: Mick, sometimes you seem so bitter I worry about you, without even knowing you. Today I must go and maybe put someone I dont know in prison for maybe many years, I will do it if its just but it will not make me happy, doing things that enrich peoples lives even if its in a small way like Sutty picking up somebodys groceries or finding that someone has enjoyed one of your routes will make me happy, and that really is the main motivation, why are you such a cynic?

In reply to Al Evans:

Worry about yourself I hope first.


It will suite you well and make you happy. Happy that you made the right decision, did you?

>I will do it if its just but it will not make me happy

It makes me happy and I hope that you know the difference between happy and just.

>doing things that enrich peoples lives even if its in a small way like

that is good,,,,but immeadiately your ego makes a value judgment

>Sutty picking up somebodys groceries or finding that >someone has enjoyed one of your routes will make >me happy,

.....and that really is the main motivation,


I'm no cynic

M

In reply to Al Evans:

Do I recall correctly u mentioning that before your successful lead of Soapsuds you were down the Moon with the large first ascenstionist team having a pint? and saying we must GIVE BACK more polished routes for the future generations??

Writing voluntary guidebooks is putting something back in. Motives are a different thing. I think the guy who wrote the "selfish gene" theory had a point. Interestingly the guy wrote a sequel in which he suggested that the most successful people employed a tit-for-tat gaming strategy i.e you always start off by being nice to someone; if anyone is nice to you, you are nice back; anyone messes with you, you are negative back.

But anyway Al which new route were you most proud of and why?

In reply to francoise:


ROFLMAO!! I like that, well put franky.

In reply to Simon Cox:


I'd have thought that was obvious, Jean Jeanie (VS), followed by Cracked Actor(E2). Fairly chuffed that I got up Daytona Wall(E5) but nobody believes I did that so the edge is taken off it a bit. Then probably North West Passage (E2)and Freebird (E1) at South Stack. Did very few classics on gritstone on the sharp end, a few good things in Wales and The Lakes which get the odd star, but no, I think thats it. I was privelidged to follow some great guys up some great classics too though!

In reply to Al Evans:

Brilliant route Al. I might even write you a letter.....


>Fairly chuffed that I got up Daytona Wall(E5) but nobody believes I did that so the edge is taken off it a bit.

How so? Who doesn't believe you and why?

Mick

In reply to Al Evans:

Gosh Al I had no idea you had done all this!

In reply to Al Evans:


Apart from at Agden Rocher and Stannington Ruffs eh =).

In reply to Al Evans: Jean Jeanie - great route, shame its so polished now. I had a frightener soloing it some years ago. I was wearing a plastic tube on my finger to protect the severed tip which was due to a wood cutting incident (long story). The tube expanded in one of the cracks like a wall plug and I was securely fastened to the crag, took 30 minuted to extricate myself before I could climb to the top!

I havn't done many new routes (3), more proud of the stars than E points. Greatest satisfaction is others enjoying the route and sharing in experience of quality. This seems to be a big motivator for GG and other who put in a lot of time and expense in establishing sports clmbs (I only climb them to get fit for trad, honestly), rather than the competition for top grades.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: Well I did it with my girlfriend (the Jean in Jean Jeanie) and Dennis Carr did the second ascent, he's 6ft 5in or so and said he couldnt understand how I'd done it, this got translated into I couldnt possibly do it and you know how these things go. Then Phil Kelly did it and in spite of being a mate now he said there would ' always' be doubt about my ascent. I have since contacted Jean and she doesnt climb anymore but remembers it and is willing to back me up. Obviously its a sensitive point with me. Its one of those things that makes you pissed off because it never seems to be resolved. I suppose like Boothill and Fernhill but with the shoe on the other foot
Dennis has since denied that he ever doubted my ascent, but it was quite an early E5 for Lancs.

In reply to francoise: I have hidden depths xxx

In reply to Al Evans:

Ooo that Phil Kelly.....he's one of those pompous and arrogant guidebook people.

Does he believe you now?

M

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: Probably not but we do get pissed together, by the way where is my John Gill book Phil???

In reply to Al Evans:

It must be a real pisser being a man of integrity and still not being believed by those bastards.

I used to be the same before I moved into sales. Recently in Cornwall I was so pumped at the top of The Cull that I pulled over the top using the abseil rope, I quickly dusted the chalk off the ab rope and patted some chalk on the finishing holds: my mate is very competitive you understand!

Now I am leaving sales I will of course revert to my former ways...

However, I believe this matter should be laid to rest! is Rockfax writing a new guide to the area? I am sure AJ can fix this in the intro, something along the lines of: "The rock legend Al Evans following an apprenticeship with the leading climbers of the day brought the magical E5 grade to Lancashire with his inspired ascent of Daytona Wall".

In reply to Fiend:

Eyhh, some of the routes at Agden are quite good, I'd like to forget about Stanington Ruffs please.

In reply to Simon Cox: LOL, you're taking the piss (I hope)

In reply to Al Evans: Sorry it's a permanent part of climbing history now.

In reply to Simon Cox:

"Rockfax writing a new guide to the area? I am sure AJ can fix this in the intro, something along the lines of: "The rock legend Al Evans following an apprenticeship with the leading climbers of the day brought the magical E5 grade to Lancashire with his inspired ascent of Daytona Wall"."

That's basically South Lakes so it should really go in the new North Limestone Guide.......Peak, Yorkshire, and lakeland Limestone in one vol......

Mmmmm....maybe a bit of revisionist history is in order.

Hold on...where the hell is Daytona Wall...is it Trowbarrow?

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: Its a (probably the only) 3 star route at Cows Mouth Quarry, Phil eventually did a direct on it.

In reply to Al Evans: Excuse me, arent we getting off the point a bit, this is supposed to be John and Judes thread??

In reply to Al Evans:

Cows Mouth...right Al....I remember....

Maybe a MiniGuide is in order with the correct first ascent info'.

Phil Kelly...Where Art Thou My Brother...?

M

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

While we're at it, can we have me correctly credited with the first ascent of Suspect Intellect on Curbar, that well-known Seventies test-piece.

I mentioned it to Dave Gregory but strangely enough he only pointed out his priority when the guidebook appeared. I dunno, guidebook volunteers, I ask you.

Al, not to be taken too seriously!