UKH

Hi,

Firstly sorry for the Facebook link, it's the only source I have. It looks like there are plans to double yellow all of Bus Stop parking. I may be wrong, but I imaging this will have an impact on local instructors, walkers as well as visiting climbers and may annoy locals as parking opportunities will be pushed back into the village.

This should be the correct email address to send any concerns to, a friend pointed out that the one shown on the poster is possibly incorrect (maybe message both just to be sure?)

marilynnewilliams@gwynedd.llyw.cymru

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1499117890362695/permalink/2758840494390422...

I imagine this has come about due to liberties being taken during lockdown and perhapse by excessive use by campervans. However I don't think we should all be punished because of the actions of a few peopel (and one agressive local I've crossed paths with)

Regards

Michael

Here is the proposal.

This is a serious problem for anyone that enjoys the quarries.

It is also mental! People will just park further up the road and annoy residents more.

If locals are upset, it may be reasonable to ban campervans, but this is a disproportionate response that is terrible news for climbers.

Please write in, especially if you are a local, as your response may be listened to more.

Do you know which email correct yet btw?

marilynnewilliams@gwynedd.llyw.cymru is on the councils website so I presume is correct, the poster however shows a possibly typo or is maybe the correct one?

I wonder if the BMC could step in?

I expect there is a typo on the poster - I've been googling but have not found anything definitive either way.

Well my email has been sent, it looks like we only have 3 weeks left in which to raise concerns, I imagine local instructors/guides must have said something already?

Where've you been hiding yourself all these years?  It's the way of the world

As someone has suggested elsewhere, it may be wise not to push the climbing angle too much here with the council, as official access to the quarries is restricted to the main path.

Nevertheless, worth emphasising its value with regard to leisure activities in general.

I'm writing an email now.

Hi

I'm aware of the proposal to impose a Traffic Regulation Order to place double yellow lines along part of the parking area/bus turnaround area at Bus Stop Quarry (Adwy Ddu to give its correct name). Using the correct names and terminology will add weight to any objections, as will objections from people who are resident in this council ward (Llanddeiniolen). 

Having said that, volume of objections do also carry weight but need to be accurate, objective and not counter productive to our argument (eg. saying that you need lots of parking for your converted van while you  go trespassing in the slate quarry is not going to help the case!!). 

I'm arranging to meet council officials and the local county Councillor on site in the next few days. 

Any objections need to be thought out, reasoned and objective, based on material and traffic management considerations. As others have stated, simply objecting on the grounds that it prevents us parking in order to trespass in the slate quarry is probably not going to carry much weight with the decision makers at Gwynedd Council!

The parking serves a very popular and flat path to a promoted viewpoint, is highly accessible for people with mobility problems but who may not be registered disabled. This will also be one of the most important access point to the Gwynedd Council supported UNESCO World Heritage Site application for the slate quarries. Access restrictions on one of the major gateways to that project, imposed by the council will not help their application for this prestigious status.  

Agreeing to some minimal traffic restrictions e.g. on the inner side of the turnaround to allow buses to pass without would appear to be a reasonable compromise, as would possibly agreeing to no overnight parking here. Issues with litter, sanitation and "camper van" meet ups have increasingly  become a real issue with local residents  here.

Thanks

Elfyn Jones

BMC Access & Conservation Officer (Wales)

Interestingly this isn't just ad-hoc parking, it is marked as a car park on the OS map.

Yea I did think alomg those lines and focused on instructors, walkers and that it may cause parking issues in Dinorwic village as a result, though I did mention, climbers in Bus Stop Quarry (perhapse unwisely?)

Thanks for writing as well btw.

What's wrong with letting people get on and off buses safely?

Thanks for the support Elfyn, I didn't consider the UNESCO status tbf, tried to  use correct names where possible, though until reading your post was unfamiliar with the name Adwy Ddu. I did however suggest a ban an overnight parking as I realise campers and resulting litter is becoming a problem there.

Thanks again.

There is enough space for parking and safe use of the buses I think, if it were managed correctly rather than just a blanket ban.

Is there a clearer description anywhere? From that photo it looks as if it might only be on the RHS as you drive round the terminus. In that case it wouldn't affect (responsible) parking. Anyone know?

I'll write in later once there's a consensus on messaging and valid arguments. Would definitely support a "no overnight parking" approach because, well, I think we all know why it's come up.

Has anyone been able to find this application on the council website? I can't find anything at all, which is worrying. Makes me wonder if there's either under-handed action on the part of the council. Or that this might just be a hoax.

I can't imagine Elfyn would be involved if it was? I did also wonder if the email address mistake might be intentional, but put it down to my own paranoia and decided to accept it as a typo.

I had a look and couldn't find anything either.
Also couldn't find any way to get to the relevant page that would show any similar applications.
Maybe it's in a section of the website that you need to sign in to?

I've sent my objection to both spellings of the email address and neither email has bounced back? So who knows?!

I have seen a clearer picture and it is not as bad as I first thought, maybe parking for 20 - 30 cars left at most.  But I can see it causing problems further up the road in summer holidays/good weather weekends.

The local place for local people brigade are out on Facebook this morning!

Have you ever come across the extremly agressive local farmer? Usually seen taking pictures at 08:30 in the morning, tailgating anyone who drives along, waving a fist and occasionally screaming at people? I thought I was going to have to put my first aid training to use, as he looked close to a stress induced heart attack.

So where would be affected? Would the gravel parking bays still be usabe?

It is my intention to raise a concern about them putting this poster up during the firebreak when we are being asked to stick to essential travel only and stay local. It means that the consultation period had effectively been shortened from 28 days to 19 days. In my opinion this is simply not transparent or democratic . I just need the time to sit down at my computer and writev the email to the council, to my MP and my AM.

Stupid question.

I know money is a bit tight at the moment, but is the random bit of greenery in the middle of the roundabout really needed?  Could that be turned into more parking (with no overnight parking) and then double-yellowing the rest of the road would be fine?

I think the gravel bays along the fence would be classed as a verge and be covered by the yellow lines unless they were signed with a specific exception. At least that's my memory of the highway code.

There is a memorial to the slate miners who work and died there in the middle. Possibly best not suggest removing it!!

This is my concern, and why we could do with a public meeting, but covid.....

The greenery includes a memorial to the quarrymen who lost their lives in the workings. I think it's a fitting memorial and should stay.

The road is wide enough that parking as currently happens doesn't block traffic, and there's an adequate amount 99% of the time.

Ah, fair enough, probably best not!

I guess you unaware, but there's a memorial to the 362 (I think i'm right with the number) quarry men and miners who died whilst working in the quarries, though I doubt this take into account the hundreds more who suffred from imdustrial diseases that drastically shortened their lives. I don't think getting rid of it would be respectful or go down well with locals.

Edit: just realised someone beat me to it.

Yep, was pointed about above, that would indeed make that idea a no-go.

I would have thought that instead of putting double yellows down a more productive solution would be to introduce pay and display parking given the huge amount of space up there. 

The space is heavily used by locals all year round, it is only full of tourist at peak times (summer holidays, summer weekends) we already pay council tax here, why should we be charged twice just to go for a local walk.

I think may be seen as a bit of a tax for locals wanting to use the area tbh.

Well I'm at bus stop now and can't even find the notice?! 

The obvious answer to that would be locals all over Wales and the UK have to pay to use local car parks, including areas with a much lower affluence than Deiniolen. Maybe parking charges should be abolished everywhere then?  

I'm struggling to think of any pay and display in deiniolen. Most pay and display is associated with some sort of facilities, not simply being able to safely access a public footpath without having to walk a 2 year old down a national speed limit road with no pavement!

I’m not sure either about deiniolen in particular but again the ‘facility’ here could be seen as an access point to walking facilities or outdoor activity settings. The counter to your argument there could be all the pay and display areas throughout the UK  mountain areas including ones in Gwynedd. 
 

I’m not really advocating that it should be p&d at Bus stop quarry but it shouldn’t necessarily be ruled out on the grounds you’ve mentioned. In some areas town/community councils sponsor car parks making them free to use and if Gwynedd or more widely Wales want to raise revenue in the absence of tourism then someone needs to pay. In this case there is a clear need for parking but the councils response is to seemingly close parking which seems ludicrous and I’m putting forward a more sustainable solution. Maybe it could be seasonal?

I’m not sure the answer to this is for it to remain as it is as there is a need for upgrading and maintenance and that needs to be funded. 

Yes, I've met him. My dog is a bit of an arsehole and on occasions barks at angry man's donkeys. He made no effort to calm down his tone or language even when I had my daughter with me.

Having said that, his animals have provided a source of entertainment during lockdown, for which I am grateful!

Aren't the quarries a world heritage site now? Could we use this angle to argue that restricting access to such a site limits the appreciation of such an important Welsh cultural site (go for the flattery approach rather than saying we want to climb there).

I don't think they're UNESCO yet but they have been shortlisted I believe, and yes Elfyn did mention it as one avenue for forming a respones. Though I fear that approach may just result in pay and display...

I've never understood the apporach to tourists that you get in the UK. Simultaneously begging for more and more tourists to visit an area but without giving them parking, toilets or even bins. And then being hostile to the only people bringing money into an area. Although the post-lockdown crazyness of litter, 'wild' camping and shitting and camper van piss taking hasn't helped, that is entirely their fault, but they need to work out some way of fixing all this.

P.S. By 'entirely their fault' I meant the fault of the people doing the wild-shitting etc. not the fault of the national parks, although the fact that there are no toilets to shit in is the authorities' fault. My point was that lack of facilities doesn't give an excuse to litter and shit everywhere, but there really should be facilities.

I like how they do it in Norway and Canada where there are long drop bogs and bins at the trail-heads. Shouldn't be too expensive for the UK although we seem to be allergic to spending money on anything public.

Well being a climber without a colon, I'd certainly welcome a few more toilets being dotted around the countryside 😂

A pay and display would be preferable to losing parking access altogether.

Yes but as mentioned above, it would be an additional cost that doesn't provide the ticket purchaser any additional benefits. And I imagine people would just park back in the village to avoid paying the £5, more over what about the locals wanting to use the parking there, it wouldn't be of any benefit them.

They can have the system that is used elsewhere in Wales, and probably elsewhere, where you can park for one or two hours free and have to pay for longer.

Contrast this with my local climbing area Shelf Road, where in response to a huge growth in climbers, the BLM (strapped for cash government body) have tripled the size of the free parking, added 24 new campsites with tables and fire pits ($7 per site for up to 6 people) and installed 7! new composting toilets.

I'm baffled as to why the UK authorities can't recognise the economic and ecological benefits of providing good infrastructure for visitors.

It's the UK Ltd.: nothing is free or for the good of the public!

Basically you've got the generally UK government apathy, combined with Gwynedd council that has been under plaid control forever and basically makes little to no effort to improve things, then add a good helping of covid induced racism and this is the situation we find ourselves in.

Apologies,  a mistake in my post, the original Welsh name is Allt Ddu (after the fillled in quarry, that is now Busstop Quarry). 

I have a Welsh language predictive text on this device and should have checked before posting! 

Elfyn

The filled in quarry, aka the perfectly manicured square patch of fenced off grass? Were there any notable routes in it do you know?

Cliff Phillip's climbed a few routes in there before it was filled in apparently...

Too late...be prepared to be ribbed over this

Fixed that for you. 

Serves me right for trying to write a post when on the phone on a Saturday morning, when out for a dog walk!

I’d disagree. If Gwynedd concentrated on business generation rather than nepotism they’d be in a much better position. 

Well I've had a reponse, turns out that this is a local problem for local people and I should butt out...

Ok maybe that's a tad harsh, but they haven't exactly said 'we value your opinion', which was main based around acces for locals, and issues that the restrictions may create in the village.

Good afternoon,

Thank you for your e-mail below expressing your views on this matter.

We have received complaints about parking problems in the area.

We have put this plan together in order to try to address these problems.

The first step that we have taken is to consult with the local community in order to receive their feedback on the matter and we have done this by erecting this poster/plan up on site and also informing the local Councillor and Community Council.

This consultation period is open for 28 days and I will write to you again after this time with the outcome.

Many thanks once again.

Regards,

Mari.

I received an identical email.

Me too

Please try to focus on issues the council will ‘hear’ in your, much valued, evidenced, responses. Safety, recreational access, pushing the problem elsewhere etc. will be ‘heard’ more than ‘I wanna park my van overnight so I can hop over the fence and trespass a disused quarry’. ‘Although I understand the issues this is a disproportionate  response’ etc etc. Thanks.