UKH

Hi Everyone,

I am planning on taking a large group (around 50) of student beginner climbers to Birchen Edge this weekend on both days. I just wanted to let people know we would be there encase you would choose to avoid us. By no means expecting to claim the crag but simply a friendly warning to those who want a quieter climbing experience. We will be predominantly based around The promenade to Trafalgar Wall area with several top ropes setup as well as the Three Ships boulders. 

Apologies for any inconvenience,

Toby - Meets sec

In reply to ybot77:

Thanks for letting us know.

It would be really appreciated if you could pass on how fragile the rock at Birchen is to these new climbers and emphasise the cleaning of shoes and not ragging gear placements to them. You can easily see the worn camslot on Topsail from the ground if you want to evidence this.  

Enjoy your day!

In reply to Offwidth:

I was there a couple of weekends ago and I was rather shocked at the cam slot. I'm sure it used to fit my size 3.5 4CU when I first did it around 13 years ago. 4CU 4.0 was severely undercammed, as in so much as to be able to fall straight out now, so I didn't bother with it at all. That placement is now basically gone, it's a good thing there's such a good thread underneath.

In reply to Alkis:

I never understood the need for a cam on Top Sail, as the thread is perfectly placed.

In reply to Offwidth:

Isn’t that the cam placement which ultimately broke off? My mate Kipper, formerly of this parish, picked it up and kept hold of it in the hope that it could be reinstated. Long time ago, I could be getting my Birchen climbs mixed up. 

In reply to Thugitty Jugitty:

It's there to see and it's hard to imagine it being a broken hold as it's a cam gouged perpendicular slot. It's certainly not recent.... my photo was taken around 2006.

Loads of flake holds have gone across the Peak through poorly placed cams subsequently shock loaded in a fall.

In reply to Alkis:

Not with a bigger cam it isn't - I did a couple of weeks ago and popped my big camalot in there no problem. I didn't think Offwidth's photo from going on 20 years ago looks much different from now.

In reply to ybot77:

I’m puzzled and saddened at crags being treated as outdoor climbing walls with multiple top ropes set up for the day, often on the better quality/classic routes.

crags wear out and can’t be reset.

on the Topsail cam slot, I saw it many years ago and it looked like it had been freshly cut as a parallel sided slot.

In reply to Alkis:

Wow. When I last did it ~8 years ago, the slot made for a useful fist jam but it sounds like my fist won't fit any more.

In reply to brianjcooper:

hmmmm. Very topical. Last Saturday someone lobbed from the hard section and decked. He had placed the thread.....

In reply to TheGeneralist:

That sounds frightening! The hard bit is literally by the thread! Poor belaying?

In reply to ybot77:

Just a suggestion to consider spreading out more along the edge up to Poop Deck and Emma's Slab areas.

They're generally less busy so your @50 group will have less impact on other climbers, and the starts on those areas are less polished so more fun for your team. Everyone's a winner

In reply to TheGeneralist:

And not placed the cam I guess?

I imagine there was lots of slack rope, as even if he fell off getting his feet above the roof, you're still reasonably high by that point. 

In reply to TobyA:

That thread is high enough... I've seen a few falls onto it from the pull up uging the flake jug onto high feet (the crux for most..... for short climbers the crux is reaching the jug) and ending up under the roof well abve the ground. The route has a reputation as a soft VS so sees a few too many inexperienced climbers ( hence also the damage to the cam slot)

In reply to Fruit:

I'm puzzled and saddened at people treating keen student climbers as second class citizens with less right to enjoy the rock than the rest of us. The club have posted on here to let people know as a courtesy, and as recommended in the BMC guidance on student meets. I don't think they've given us any reason to doubt that they'd respect the rock and the rest of the BMC guidance.

You're criticising the use of top ropes and then talking about crags "wearing out" as if there's a direct correlation but there isn't. We've already had another very experienced climber on the thread actually encouraging the use of top ropes because he thinks they'd be less damaging to the rock.

There are certainly ways that the students could behave badly or damage the rock but I don't see any reason to assume they will and I don't think merely setting up top ropes is a problem. The only way top ropes are inherently more damaging is if they allow more people to climb, and those extra people have just as much right to enjoy the rock as any of the rest of us.

In reply to Fruit:

It is an outdoor climbing wall??

I think what you're getting at is educating so that the impact is minimal? Rope and edge protectors to avoid to much abrasion, cleaning shoes etc etc.

Birchen has been climbed on for many many years and routes like topsail have had in excess of 4000 ticks and was first climbed in the 50s, if anything it's looking good for its age!! Nothing lasts forever but I can confidently say that Birchen as a crag will outlive me! 

Get out and tick routes, have a great day

In reply to TobyA:

Yes, but if it’s grown. By two sizes in a decade it’s only going to get worse, it’s soft rock left.

In reply to Luke90:

That and people scrabbling about on routes that are too hard for them (for their footwork especially) whilst effectively being winched up on a tight rope.  The effects of which are considerably worse if they have sandy shoes.

I'm sure the group in question will be making good route choices and ensuring that shoes are clean, but as mentioned above that's something that's a particular risk at Birchen because a lot of the easiest routes have their hardest moves right off the ground.

In reply to deepsoup:

I was helping out my local Uni club when I was there a couple of weekends ago. Quite a few of the freshers had climbed a fair amount inside even though they’d never climbed outside. I had a couple of people that had no problem following me up VSes and HVSes. One of them fell off on the crux when seconding Ratline. Of all the groups, I heard one complaint of someone who felt everything was too hard and kept falling off the bottom of a route, for everyone else the route choices seemed to be spot on. There is the *assumption* that it’s the same as bringing 50 people and dragging them up stuff, and for some groups it may be true, but do not assume that every group of students going out is that incompetent.

To the OP: Enjoy, peeps! Pick your routes and have fun!

In reply to Alkis:

I've seen really good groups and rather less good groups, and I'm certainly making no assumptions about the OP's group.

In reply to deepsoup:

That's a valid concern in general for beginner groups but it's avoidable by a responsible group and it's not inherent to top ropes because it's equally possible to winch someone up a route they're struggling with on second. Perhaps harder to see what they're doing or coach them while they're on second, in fact, especially on the early moves that you're concerned about.

There are plenty of bad practices for groups to avoid, regardless of the specific style in which they're climbing. If someone's genuinely concerned about damage to the rock, they give constructive advice as others have done on this thread and the spin-off that's specifically about damaged holds. Sneering at top ropes specifically as Fruit did is just unwelcoming elitism.

In reply to ybot77:

Thanks for letting us know, the site is a site of special scientific interest and designated for a range of special conservation features. Accessable under CROW for individuals but large groups (more than 15) counts as an event and requires Natural England consent. Best to contact Eastern Moors  enquiries@easternmoors.org.uk who may be able to help.

In reply to Danny Udall:

How is anyone meant to know about this? It's not on the BMC RAD or UKC. It's not mentioned in the guidebooks. Googling specifically for it turns up nothing. I have found out that vast swathes of the Peak are part of one of several SSSIs, seemingly including an awful lot of crags, but there's nothing obvious about group access restrictions. Does the system rely entirely on random members of staff seeing forum posts and responding?

Even Natural England's website listing SSSIs and their restrictions doesn't have anything very enlightening about the SSSI that I assume you're referring to:

https://designatedsites.naturalengland.org.uk/SiteDetail.aspx?SiteCode=S200...

The closest thing on the list of restrictions is "Recreational activities likely to damage biological and geological features of interest" but that doesn't give any useful information or say anything specific about groups or climbing.

If there's a rule in place that you actually expect people to stick to, it surely needs to be better advertised. If enforcement consists entirely of posting on forums to warn people off a few days before they've got their event planned, that seems a bit arbitrary and capricious.

In reply to Luke90:

Yes it's an operation requiring Natural England consent. Many other recreational groups have obtained this for this site. Eastern Moors will be able to help. NT advice is online here  https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/visit/peak-district-derbyshire/kinder-edal...

In reply to Danny Udall:

Is Birchen even on National Trust land or was that just the only online reference? The rules you're referring to just don't seem to be publicised at all and I really don't understand how you expect anyone to know about them. Nothing about the National Trust website you shared sounds like the author expected it to cover a climbing club meet and if it did then it would be the death of them. It's clearly geared towards commercial running events and the like. You're evidently linked to one of the organisations involved in some way so I'm sure you're right on the technicalities but surely the rules in question aren't normally applied to events like this?

In reply to Luke90:

I'm the land manager and can offer support for the event to go ahead. We have a blanket SSSI consent in place from Natural England that can cover the organiser's of this event. The main challenge is not bird nesting at this time of year but will be to identify if there will be any parking and access issues that this may cause other climbers who may be visiting the crag also. Here to help and can be contacted on the enquires email given. 

In reply to Danny Udall:

Well that sounds way more helpful than your initial posts which implied to me that the meet would be blocked and obscured your role. I remain baffled as to how student clubs are intended to know about these rules at Birchen outside of you happening to see them post but if your intention is just to talk it through with them and make sure they're not doing anything daft then that's great.

In reply to Luke90:

Yes Eastern Moors are here to help. My profile is my real name so nothing is obscured and no obstruction was stated. This was reported to me tonight so we are proactive in contacting people to avoid conflicts playing out onsite. Usually around access and parking issues at this time of year. The peaks were very busy last weekend due to the warmer october weather. All the best, Danny

In reply to Danny Udall:

So, just to get this entirely clear, someone saw this thread and decided that the best course of action would be to contact the Eastern Moor partnership, which I can only assume was in hope of shutting it down.

Obviously you seem very keen to help getting this to go ahead above the board, which is great.

What I really don’t see is how any student club in the entire country is meant to know about it and how we can expect them to just not bother posting about their meets here ever again in future.

In reply to Alkis:

I don't think you should assume that the intention was to shut it down...

In reply to Alkis:

I’m completely unbothered by uni groups so don’t particularly care about the event itself and am pleased that some forethought happens and ‘warnings’ are given, but it’s important that as event organisers they should realise that ignorance is no defence. Surely if you wanted to organise anything with a large number of people you would get in touch with the stakeholders beforehand to make sure it’s ok? Imagine being pulled up on the day for falling foul of the rules and having 50 folks day out ruined because of your own shortsightedness. Yes it’s CRoW access land, yes there are PRoWs to it, but these things come with a plethora of caveats for the individual user let alone organised shindigs..

In reply to duchessofmalfi:

It’s the only assumption that can reasonably be made. No-one would have contacted anyone if this were a courtesy post by any of the “grown up” climbing clubs of old and the word “top ropes” had not been mentioned, and I know as a fact that several student clubs stopped posting here after the good old pile ups that anyone that has been here for a while can no doubt remember, including clubs lead by people that actively post here.

In reply to Alkis:

You shouldn't be so confident with this accusation.

I would (perhaps charitably) assume that this got to Danny because people wanted to make sure this event happened properly without unintentional damage to the environment or reputation.

As you mentioned posting announcements - you'll know as well as I do that the quality of these has ranged from superb to appalling. The latter coming in for significant criticism not least because a poor announcement does tend to worry people that the group will behave like arseholes on the day.

It's not that hard to post the information clearly, apologise for the inconvenience, reassure people that you will (a) look after the place and (b) be nice to people on the day. If you fail to cover this it does tend to worry people.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:

Let’s agree to disagree on this one, even if whoever did it may well use that as a public justification.

The very concept of posting here is to let people know. What I would personally not be doing would be “apologising” for any “inconvenience”, as if a student climbing is “inconveniencing” a superior grown up climber that has the absolute right to be there, and I haven’t been a student for about 15 years.

Do you get “apologies for the inconvenience” when professionally guided groups are at crags, and any time I’ve had a super negative experience of people refusing to move unused top-ropes etc. it has been them, not students, yet somehow we have to expect students to apologise for being there?

In reply to Alkis:

What you are describing here is a justification for a race to the bottom.  What I'm advocating is a gentle stroll to the top. I'm not sure I can agree to disagree on the merits of this.

There is a danger of being too defensive - in many people this leads to being rude when just being nice would work so much better.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:

No, it really isn’t a justification for a race to the bottom. You are unreasonably expecting one demographic of climbers, which has been the pathway for *a lot of us* getting into climbing, to have to go to unreasonable lengths to justify to random UKCers their going to the crag to climb. Expecting people to reassure you they are not going to trash the crag, and that they are going to be nice, seriously? Do you not see how condescending that is?

In reply to ybot77:

UKC should lock these threads as soon as they're created. Every year keen students try to do the right thing and every year a load of old fossils slag them off. It's incredibly tedious and must be very dispiriting for people trying to get into climbing. Have a great day. 

In reply to Alkis:

I'm suggesting that when a big crowd of people make an arrangement to turn up at a crag in a manner that might inconvenience others they should take reasonable steps to let people know about it and reassure people it will be done properly.  The fact that they are students or UKCers is irrelevant. I'd expect the same of other events.

I don't see that it's condescending to expect people to be nice.  I do think it's somewhat juvenile for someone like you, approaching middle age as you are, to employ the arguments of grumpy teens and take on the banner of protecting freshers but I suppose we must all find our own way. I do realise the irony of me saying this in a post emphasising being nice and therefore I should out my intention to mildly tease rather than have a proper go.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:

They are not inconveniencing you, they are going climbing. If I turn up to a crag and find it is full of people, I have to go elsewhere, whether that is because there is a group there or 50 individual climbers. In this case, you get advance notice, you normally don’t.

 

No, but expecting people to reassure you in writing that they are going to be nice is not just condescending, it is patently ridiculous.

I had enough of the attitude you are displaying here when I was that age, I will not magically start tolerating it now I’m not.

In reply to Alkis:

I think you've just won the internet for the day!

In reply to duchessofmalfi:

Sure. In future arguments I’ll make sure to reassure you in writing that I am going to be nice. 😛

In reply to Danny Udall:

Thank you for your support Danny I have sent an email through to eastern moors. What can I do to ensure that the event goes ahead and that no damage is done to the site?

In reply to PaulJepson:

Thanks Paul. I will be doing my best to pass on good practices to all new members

In reply to andy healey:

I will keep this in mind and have a look at the routes on offer over there!

In reply to ybot77: First of all I'd like to wish the OP a successful trip out climbing, and kudos to him for taking a group of beginners (as assumption).  Given the nature of his post I think he'll be looking to make sure it doesn't affect any other people either, or at least no more than any other group of climbers.

To Danny Udall; I was curious as to the size of the SSSI, so had a look at the map showing it's extent, and was surprised that it covered all the other Eastern edges as well, so in theory club meets at Stanage for example should also apply for the requisite permission?

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Ignorance is no defence, when there's a reasonable expectation that someone should have known if they'd bothered to think about it and make obvious inquiries. So what publicly available information do you think they should have been aware of? UKC says no issues (and in fact mentions that it's a favourite with groups). RAD says no issues, which should surely be the gold standard for checking access issues. Searching Google for ownership of Birchen Edge or access issues turns up nothing useful. Guidebooks say nothing. Armed with the information that it was part of an SSSI, I was able to find a map of the SSSI but still nothing that indicated groups of more than 15 should seek permission from this Eastern Moors Partnership. It's entirely hidden information, and thus totally unreasonable to expect groups to follow it. The website Danny did post was from the National Trust (how would anyone guess they were the place to look? I can't find any indication that they own the Edge) and suggests applying up to a year in advance, which would clearly amount to no access for student clubs if it was actually enforced. It all seems to be aimed at things like commercial running events.

In reply to TheGeneralist:

I'm possibly being a bit pedantic, but for my own peace of mind. How do you 'deck it' from a good thread runner? I've never managed to do that, despite falling on one on more than one occasion. Yet! Too much slack as someone else has suggested?  Or shock loading the sling, although the rope should absorb most of the falling energy? Be good to know. 

In reply to ybot77:

A club I am a member of had an evening meet at Birchen in the summer, the organiser went to lengths to ensure less than 15 people were attending. The information is out there and as such it is, IMHO, incumbent on the organisers to find out details and ensure they are followed. 50 people is a heck of a lot and if I were the organisers I’d be thinking about spreading the load over several venues. 

In reply to brianjcooper:

There's a note in the logbooks from someone who saw presumably this accident take place. They said it was poor belaying:

"Saw someone hit the ground from the crux shortly after doing this due to bad belaying. Pretty scary to watch but somehow he walked away with bruises and scratches. Belayers watch your partner on this route!" (7th Oct.)

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks Toby.

In reply to ybot77:

Interesting discussion. From a purely legal perspective, "organised games" are not permitted on CROW Access Land. So this comes down to whether or not one believes a Uni Climbing Club trip is an organised game or not. If it is, there is no right to do it, and landowner permission is needed. If it is not, crack on, no permission needed, just don't cause any damage to the SSSI.

It would seem odd to me if the CROW Act made access to this particular crag more rather than less onerous.

And, personally, I really appreciate the heads up from Uni climbing clubs as to where they will be and when.

In reply to JimR:

Where is this information then? I'm genuinely curious because I've looked for it without success. If it's just generally known amongst local clubs but not published anywhere obvious (like RAD), that's clearly not going to work for uni clubs, particularly as they sometimes visit from all over the country.

In reply to Luke90:

I agree with you largely - the information should be more easily available.

What I disagree on is that it seems more pointed towards commercial events. The aim is protect the SSSI flora, fauna and geological features. The impact of a 50 person commercial event is exactly the same as a non-profit 50 person event. 

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

or 50 individual climbers ...

In reply to Chris H:

Indeed, but you can’t police 50 individual climbers because CRoW enables 50 individual climbers to be 50 individual climbers. Though you could (being devils advocate) argue that actually, 50 individual climbers rocking up would spread out more, not congregate in a small space at the base of the crag and ‘extending’ that space on to what little greenery is left at the bottom of most eastern Peak crags etc. 

In reply to TobyA:

I first did it 55 years ago. Probably last did it 50 years ago. Cams?

I do recall a mate lobbing off from the stretch past the bulge and actually touching ground on rope stretch though.... apparently it was his 13th ascent.

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Completely agree that the actual aim of protecting the SSSI is equally relevant to commercial and non-profit events. When I said it seemed aimed at things like commercial running events I was referring to the specific content and expectations of the website and the application form. I'm not saying it shouldn't apply to climbing clubs in principle, just that the currently available info doesn't look like it is aimed at them. Not least because the obvious way to target them would be to get the information on RAD and UKC which should be easy enough to do. And also because the suggested timelines are clearly implausible for student club meets. Though Danny is evidently willing to discuss this on a much shorter timescale, at least on this occasion.

In reply to TobyA et Al

Ok. This is my sixth attempt to post. I abandoned my other 5 for reasons that will become apparent.

On Saturday I was soloing just next to this route.  I was in a strange headspace, trying to solo a ton, but not really feeling it.  Just going through the motions for the sake of it.

At one point I 'heard' someone fall off that route.  I squeezed myself against the rock, heard them continue then stop somehow.  I looked over and there was a mess of upside down climbers, rope, belayer etc all lying around.

(I was scared, and shocked, and felt even more wrong soloing than I had earlier on)  I am also very stressed out at present, and quite depressed.  I also have a major problem with slack belaying as I was decked by GriGri man from 4th bolt in Majorca once.

I could see the rope leading up from leader, to somewhere high on the cliff, back down to belayer.  I couldn't see the top of the rope as it was hidden by a nose of rock, but it did seem to be pretty damn far up the cliff.

As the climber and belayer were exchanging fairly measured words; I am ashamed to say I lost it and said something along the lines of "Dude, WTF, why did he deck it from there?".  The belayer replied to say the climber had been way above the runner, and I'm ashamed to say I got even more agitated and gave him quite a hard time.  Clearly my agitation was driven by the knowledge of my own hypocrisy, bitterness at having been decked from bolt 4 years ago and shame at having had a go at him.  At that point both climber and belayer seemed to agree that the belaying was kosher and he just fell from too high up.

By this time I was back on the ground, and could see the thread runner, and wasn't quite so 100% sure.  I managed to bottle my agitation and realise how out of order I was being by interfering.  I apologised to the group profusely and acknowledged the fact that a soloist isn't really in a position to criticise a leader.  (but do you know what... I actually don't really think this was true.  I accepted that If I fell I would deck, but I was still angry with the group for supposedly doing something safe, but actually doing it badly and making it dangerous)

Anyway, I apologised more and crept off to continue my day elsewhere.

Then when I got home I donated £100 to Edale MRT as a penance and vain attempt to try to come to terms with the whole SNAFU.

I'm interested to see that it appears at least one other person thought the belaying wasn't great.
 

What I do know is that my reaction wasn't helpful and I am sorry if the climber or belayer reads this.  I am ashamed of my behaviour.

In reply to wbo2:

I was curious as to the size of the SSSI, so had a look at the map showing it's extent, and was surprised that it covered all the other Eastern edges as well, so in theory club meets at Stanage for example should also apply for the requisite permission?

Yes the Eastern Peaks SSSI is large and SSSI consent is different to landowner permission. sometimes both and sometimes neither are required, different parts of the site have different "Features" some parts are sensitive and some are more robust, the NE consent is only required for recreational activities only if they are likely to damage a feature. The proposed activity, number of people and time of year is all relevant. So if in doubt contact the Natural England team at ProtectedSites@naturalengland.org.uk.

In my experience (so this is not legal opinion) as an individual climbing in areas on the Eastern moors under normal access under CROW I have never known this need consent, as its widely agreed that the normal use is accepted other wise it wouldn't be included in CROW (Note that Curbar and Froggatt are not in CROW and we would like them to be). Organisations planning events with larger numbers not on PROW usually do need consent, I haven't known one that hasn't for these moors. The thresholds of 15 and 50 are specific for this site and in the NE Moorland Management plan for this site which is not online. Therefore other SSSI sites may differ on this. Land manager permission for access is different to SSSI consent, and may not be needed if your activity is already covered by PROW or CROW access already in place.

If there is doubt then we often put an NT/RSPB access licence in place so the activity is covered that way. However we are not going to create paperwork where its not needed. An access licence is belt and braces if events are worried about being challenged onsite. Bottom line talk to the landowner/manager or Natural England. we both want to see recreation and wildlife thrive together. Hope helpful,

all the best

Danny

I'm aware that the RAD doesn't reflect what Danny has outlined regards permissions for group use here (and potentially other Eastern Moors crags). This is being looked into and the RAD will be updated as soon as possible.

In reply to Access BMC (England):

This is a much wider problem. The National Trust want to control group use on their land but are sometimes a bit coy about what they own, at least so far as signs on the ground are concerned. Take North Pembrokeshire, where most of the crags are on NT land. Is there anything in the RAD that says this and mentions the rules as in this thread above? I've no doubt other areas are similar, such as Ogwyn, Carneddau etc. where they own more or less everything, and where NT signs may or may not be present at access points. Lake District? Similar. All this without considering SSSIs which are even more obscure.

A job for life for someone at the BMC.

And if you google 'ntlandmap' (which is quicker than writing in the hugely long proper address) you get access to what they think they own, but even this is not definitive.

In reply to Gerry:

Pretty sure I walked through/from a NT car park and right past a big white NT sign on the way to birchen.

I've never known them hide ownership. If you're not sure, the presence of an extortionately priced parking machine by every flat surface is a giveaway.

In reply to Gerry:

In North Pembrokeshire they own a lot of mining rights, shooting rights etc but not always things like grazing rights. Barcud for example is common land which the Trust have some of the rights to but they don’t actually own it, hence I guess why they are sometimes a little coy about saying what they own and just let you presume! The rights they own often protect the land from development which is great but their management is a little more controversial shall we say with existing commoners with grazing rights.

In reply to Luke90:

I certainly never did anything like this for any of the OMC's new members meets, I cooked for 30 on one of those and several didn't stay for dinner. We spread out across the crag, everyone had a chilled out day and got several routes in, barely a top rope in sight and no more impact than a busy weekend in summer, especially since we walked up from the hut.

If the restriction isn't publicised it will be broken, meet leaders have a lot more important things to do than checking a website the size of the National Trust's for a restriction specific to climbing which may or may not exist that they haven't publicised in any way (noting that restrictions on group use ARE stated for some other crags like Rivelin so it is reasonable to expect them to be stated in guidebooks if they are in place).

The Eastern Edges are all routinely used for events like this (other than Curbar and Higgar...) on a regular basis, the guidance won't change because the group has travelled from Manchester or Nottingham so it just needs to produced, put on the RAD and kept up to date if it changes.

In reply to Access BMC (England):

It needs to be determined by the BMC urgently if this is an issue at every SSSI nationwide or just Eastern Moors

In reply to davepembs:

The National Trust owns the whole coastal strip from Caerfai to the edge of Solva, quite a few bits and pieces of it in Solva, including bits of the car park, and miles  of the coast beyond, nearly to Newgale. Inland from the coast there are farms which are also in NT ownership, such as St Elvis, and there is, for an example, an inland permissive path between Porth y Rhaw and Solva which is entirely on their land. These lands were donated by private individuals. The coastal strip is uncultivated but I'm not aware that any of it is common land. 

Try ntlandmap for more details

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

This is only an issue at Birchen because of the land manager. At other SSSIs containing crags, some landowners will be completely pro access and take no interest in climbers/climbing, some landowners will be completely anti access and do all they can to stop climbing, and others will be somewhere in between. The issue at Birchen is down to the land manager's stance rather than it's SSSI status

In reply to ybot77:

Just to say we were at Birchen today and did not know about the group coming.

Lots of nice friendly new and experienced climbers, enjoyed chatting to some and encouraging others.

A good day had by all

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

50 climbers as group with supervision will be less damaging than 25 pairs. The group can be briefed on where to go, toileting, litter, anchors can be deliberately selected... 25 pairs will just think they know best, yes they'll spread out, but really over decades of use that just increases wear, disturbs more wildlife, tramples more plants etc.. the key is really why each area is a sssi in the first place. They'll differ and have different management plans. 

In reply to Gerry:

When I lived just above Barcud I had commoners grazing rights on the coastal strip as did my neighbours, ownership of common land is very strange for sure as different people can own different rights, I never really understood it to be honest and didn’t graze my allotted 5 cows and 12 sheep but my neighbour did until the Trust started to use ponies for management which is when the issues began!

In reply to Gerry

If you’re interested this link shows all the registered common land in Wales, you’ll notice lots of bits are also owned by the National Trust - or they own certain rights on common land might by a better way of describing it!

https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/new?layer=inspire-nrw:NRW_COMMON_LAND_2014#/

In reply to ExiledScot:

I think you’re brave to state that as a fact when there are more factors then I care to list at midnight on a Saturday. 50 late teens who’ve potentially never spent more than a handful of days out in the countryside proper, giddy with moving to a new city and meeting new people are going to be more conscious and careful than 25 pairs who’ve been climbing for years and live and breathe the life..? As an example Of course there may be some ecology students amongst them which would skew it the other way  

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Do they exist, think about previous threads here, littering, bad parking, logging on routes, hold chipping, writing route names on rock etc.. those townie youngsters giddy with excitement can't be worse? 

In reply to davepembs:

Interesting stuff.  Good commons map. I wasn't aware that bit was common land, though either way it doesn't alter the NT 'rules' so far as large group or commercial use is concerned. Not that it's very likely that  a large group would descend on Barcud and even less likely a ranger would be there to see it. I just mentioned north pembs as an example as it's where I am. Certainly all this should give the BMC some food for thought if there is a move to try to put something in the access database. 

So far as grazing is concerned a Welsh Black went missing between Trelerw and Porth y Rhaw a few years ago, a couple or three before coved if I recall though time passes quickly these days so I may be a bit out. Whether rustled or over the cliff was never determined, but Welsh Black cattle are worth a few pennies so it was noticed. This is one of the reasons for the change to ponies as they are more or less worthless.

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Reporting back from Sunday, I'd say these students were part of a great day's climbing with noticably less bad behaviour on view than on an average good day on the edge. The most amusing moment was watching an 82 year-old Birchen devotee lead a group around, pointing out his favourite lines: I think the "Admiral's Flushed Head" (the cave tube alternative start to Admiral's Progress) maybe saw more ascents in a day than previously this year.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/birchen_edge-94/the_admirals_head-...

I'd add that we all have to start somewhere, and of the dedicated voluntary workers I know around climbing and the mountain environment, many first cemented their devotion to the outdoors when in student clubs.

In reply to Offwidth:

I bumped into a smaller group of around 15 yesterday. Disappointingly they were great fun, supportive, respectful, keen to learn and polite enough to be impressed by my full beached whale/walrus top out.

In reply to Offwidth:

Glad to hear, hope everyone had a quality day out

In reply to steveriley:

Did you see Peak District Stormtrooper. Even he was respectful....what is the world coming to!?

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Hmmm...seem to recall lost access to a few places because those "live and breathe" folk have a serious sense of entitlement and decide they can set their own rules.

Up the newbies I say!

In reply to spenser:

IMO the restriction should only apply for commercial groups. It's just an unnecessary bureaucratic barrier to the outdoors otherwise. I suggest if you're a student reading this thread you pretend you didn't and plan the events anyway...!