UKH

UKC photos on Instagram (and elsewhere?)

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 Jon Read 30 May 2019

I've just found a picture of mine, that I posted to this site, uploaded and posted on Instagram by the UKC account.

Now, I'm probably being naive and an old 'fuddy-duddy', but I don't recall giving UKC permission to distribute my photo beyond this website -- is there small print I'm missing somewhere?  

3
In reply to Jon Read:

Hi Jon,

We use the UKC Instagram account as another avenue of showcasing the best photos from the galleries. 

If you can direct us to your photo we would be happy to remove it. Please send me an email to nick at ukclimbing.com.

Thanks

Nick

1
 Jon Read 31 May 2019
In reply to Nick Brown - UKC:

I've been very supportive of this site over the years, but this is not on. It could easily be argued you're using the photos (possibly for commercial gain) without permission. It would be reasonable to expect backdated payment for use. Say £5 per photo per week of unauthorised usage? 83 weeks usage and counting, now...

I seriously think this should be opt-out by default, and you should seek explicit permission from users to reuse and distribute their photos on Instagram or elsewhere. Don't be surprised if they don't agree to this though! What I see other sites doing is re-posting images already on Instagram, which helps everyone, and drives interest to the photographer as well as the company.

What do others think? Am I being too protective of my own work? Or is this just the way things are now?

7
In reply to Jon Read:

I think all the points Jon makes are reasonable.

If I found one of my pictures reposted (by anyone) without at least permission I would be unhappy. The UKC insta isn't a hobby account, it's advertising and people's pictures shouldn't be lifted and used without their knowledge (especially as that hasn't been agreed to in the terms and conditions).

In reply to Jon Read:

Thanks for raising this Jon. We have realised that some changes we made to the photo page a few years ago, where we explicitly dealt with this topic, seem to have got over-written with an older version of the upload terms.

We are working out something now which will help establish preference for photo re-use. I'll update later.


Alan

3
In reply to Jon Read:

That's absolutely not on.

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 Jon Read 31 May 2019
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Cool. Allowing users to opt-in to further photo use would seem a perfectly reasonable solution, Alan. And the addition of Instagram name/account to link to (as Tommy suggests below).

Post edited at 10:45
In reply to Jon Read:

Feel free to use any of my pictures On here and instagram... just be sure to tag my Insta page/name in the Bio..

I'm no professional photographer but love sharing the images I managed to get so the more people that see them the better..

1
In reply to Tommy Harris:

A few of mine have also been posted. I don't recall whether I opted in or not and don't mind too much. I agree that we should have an opt out and it would be nice to link to one's  insta account to increase one's exposure. Everyone's is a winner then....

Post edited at 11:07
In reply to Tommy Harris:

Here's my insta account btw...

r2_photography_uk

If you like sharing photos.... share your account to....

 Martin Bennett 31 May 2019
In reply to Jon Read:

> What do others think? Am I being too protective of my own work? Or is this just the way things are now?

I support your view Jon. I recall back in the seventies when I did a few illustrated articles for what was then 'Climber and Rambler' one of my photos (of my pal Big Jim on Fionn Buttress) later appeared, somewhat modified, in a commercial advert in another magazine altogether. At the time I too felt a bit miffed, assuming C&R had sold it to the user, but thought having been paid for the article perhaps I'd given up my copyright on the photograph submitted with it. In your case you haven't been paid so that justification doesn't pertain.

In reply to Mike_d78:

I'm already following you

In reply to Jon Read:

Ok, we have added two permission boxes to the photo upload, and on the Edit photo page for existing photos.

Box 1 - I agree to my photos being used by UKC in editorial content. (If it's used as the main post image it may get posted to social media as a thumbnail).

Box 2 - I agree to my photos being used by UKC direct on its social media channels - Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.

Box 1 is ticked by default for all photos, including existing ones. This had been explained in the old terms. You can untick this when you upload although we hope you don't since uploading a photo to UKC should be with a view to giving it maximum exposure to the UKC audience. If you don't feel this then perhaps UKC isn't the place for it.

Box 2 is unticked by default for all photos including existing ones. We will put more effort to contact people if we do this.

The default pre-ticked behaviour will change depending on the last photo you upload though. If you ticked both on that one, both will be pre-ticked. If you unticked both, nothing will be pre-ticked for the next upload.

We will also add some specific links to people's SM accounts for those who want to take advantage of the reach UKC SM can give. 

Apologies for letting this situation develop. As mentioned it came from a page over-write error which we think may have happened up to four years ago (since we can't find the page in our backups). We had explained the Sm use in the over-written terms however I think what we have now is much better.

Alan 

In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

...and on a more positive note, it's fantastic that you've found a solution so quickly. Apologies for the earlier negativity.

In reply to tehmarks:

No problem Mark. We aim to please

In reply to Tommy Harris:

Ha ha, good stuff!

Well if anyone want to share Insta or other social media accounts I'm happy to reciprocate!!!

 Jon Read 31 May 2019
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Sounds good.

 James Rushforth Global Crag Moderator 31 May 2019
In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

Could you add an Instagram / Facebook / Twitter etc link fields in people’s profiles? (it doesn’t have to be public). If the UKC staff can see it, it then becomes easy for you to tag the right handle when you repost people’s images to various social media. 

It’s what most of the big photo websites like NG are doing now.

Then everyone benefits from the increased exposure. 

In reply to James Rushforth:

Hi James, 

This has been in the cards for a while tbh. We have social media links on the athlete and brand pages. They'll get added to the profile options next week.

 Jon Read 31 May 2019
In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

You're not going to like it, but I think you should cull/audit your Instagram and other off-site portfolios, or seek retrospective permission from individual owners. 

5
 Marek 31 May 2019
In reply to Jon Read:

> You're not going to like it, but I think you should cull/audit your Instagram and other off-site portfolios, or seek retrospective permission from individual owners. 

... if only because I think you may be violating Instagrams T&Cs - which I assume you don't want to do.

 HeMa 31 May 2019
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Kudos on acting quickly. 

The bigger problem is However the smallprint on Instagram. I seem to recall it was a hub hub a few years back. And If my memory serves me right, by posting on instagram they have the option of using pics on their adds et so on. 

In reply to Jon Read:

Point well raised and impressively quick action in response. I went back and found one of my photos in the UKC Instagram  feed.(https://www.instagram.com/p/BpEKTKlDIdK/?igshid=wafcywp32pnp). To be fair, it does call out my copyright in the caption.

It would be great if you could notify the photographer if you share a photo. In this case, I posted a photo of an unknown climber and someone actually identified who it was in the comments on  Instagram.

Post edited at 22:42
 Jon Read 02 Jun 2019
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Hi Alan,

Great that a solution hereon is sorted. This is fine for going forward, but the photos you have posted (prior to the new capture of permission meta-data) on images on Instagram  (and Facebook?) are being used, at best, with unclear permission. You are still currently using my photos without my permission. No doubt this applies to nearly all the photos UKC has posted on Instagram and elsewhere up to this point. It shouldn't take individuals to complain about their specific images, you need to conduct a full audit. Please, sort this out.

Further reading for those interested: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/481194/c-notice-201401.pdf

8
In reply to Jon Read:

Hi Jon

We are carrying out and audit but it is going to take absolutely ages. If you want your photos removed then let us know. If anyone else does then please let us know as well and we will prioritise them. This will be significantly quicker and simpler for those who are particularly bothered about it to do it this way round. Email photos [at] ukclimbing.com

Your photos were removed a few days ago so no need for you to email Jon.

Alan

Post edited at 21:50
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

I don't mind my pic of savage slit being used, but could you credit it to my insta @alexrileyclimbs

 andi turner 02 Jun 2019
In reply to Jon Read:

Yep, definitely not happy about this either.

Surely when UKC set up the Instagram account the thought must've crossed their minds that the photographers might not want their pictures in that domain? How would I go about removing my pictures from the Instagram account? Are the pictures being used on other media accounts also?

5
In reply to Jon Read:

I don't see any of my photos on there and I am personally insulted. 

In reply to andi turner:

> Surely when UKC set up the Instagram account the thought must've crossed their minds that the photographers might not want their pictures in that domain?

As mentioned above, we had different terms from around 2014 to some time in the last year or two. These terms stated that photos uploaded to UKC might be used on Instagram and other Social Media. These terms were accidentally over-written by an older version sometime in the last 24 months or so.

They definitely would have needed another look at by now anyway, and the new solution we have is much better, and should be even better still when we add the ability to link in SM accounts which will hopefully be done next week.

> How would I go about removing my pictures from the Instagram account?

As mentioned above, email photos [at] ukclimbing.com

> Are the pictures being used on other media accounts also?

Only if they featured as the key image in articles or news items in which case permission is likely to have already been sought.

Alan

In reply to andi turner:

You photos have now been removed.

Alan

 Marek 02 Jun 2019
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> We are carrying out and audit but it is going to take absolutely ages. ...

I'm not sure I see the problem: Instagram (and other) T&Cs state that you must either be the owner or have explicit permission to post any pictures. You don't (in general) so you should just remove *all* the pictures and start again with pictures for which you *do* have permission. Or do you consider T&Cs to be more of a 'guideline' than a 'rule'?

Post edited at 21:58
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 andi turner 02 Jun 2019
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> Hi Jon

> Your photos were removed a few days ago so no need for you to email Jon.

> Alan

Yet several of his pictures remain....

1
 Oli 02 Jun 2019
In reply to Marek:

Agreed and this is in line with Alan's previous response that the default for all existing photos is to have 'Box 2' unticked therefore not granting permission for instagram etc. usage. 

In reply to Marek:

There is unfortunately a prevailing attitude among many commercial outfits that they are doing you some sort of favour by using your photos. It's compounded by the fact that many amateur photographers are only too happy to have their photos so used. I'm not sure what to do about that, other than to encourage them to value their creative output more highly.

I am not a professional photographer, but I have fairly recently had to ask several outfits to remove photos of mine from articles, including the BBC and some climbing media. I guess many will figure that it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

I'll just leave this here:

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/exposure

3

Thanks for all the feedback on this.

We have now put some extra options on the photo upload page so that you can include your Instagram account with each photo if you choose the option to allow the photos on UKC Social Media. This will hopefully be beneficial for those people who run active Instagram accounts so that the can promote their photos and Instagram account through UKC's big Instagram following.

We have started doing an audit of photos uploaded to Instagram. There is no bulk delete option in Instagram and we have permission for many of the photos anyway, so we are having to do this on a photo-by-photo basis which will take a few days. If you would like your photos removed from UKC Instagram straight away then please email alan [at] ukclimbing.com

We acknowledge that we made a mistake here and appreciate people giving us a bit of leeway in rectifying it. I am going to lock this thread now. If you wish to discuss our policy on this then please email me directly - alan [at] ukclimbing.com

Thanks

Alan


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