UKH

Anyone else want to call out China as bullshit?

Really? That population, that much density, people back on the streets (sort of). China's record of less than open reporting.

Of course this is wild speculation on my part, with zero evidence to back up my assertion but I say bobbins to that.

You're not the only one to show a bit of scepticism:

youtube.com/watch?v=2R2KBbn7dj8&

Their data will be total bullshit.

Do you think they are releasing stats on the number of ill and dead in that Muslim concentration camp of theirs, sorry I meant correctional facility?

Yes, but it does remain speculation as you say. Can someone please investigate objectively, the WHO, whoever, please, thank you

Perhaps let's not overplay the "That population, that much density" card. Hong Kong has among the highest population density in the world - but to date Hong Kong has had only 900 Covid-19 cases and 4 deaths from Covid-19. YES I KNOW CHINA AND HONG KONG ARE DIFFERENT PLACES FOLKS

TheDrunkenBakers, I am NOT saying you are China-bashing. But speaking more broadly I am tired of China-bashing (I know China very, very well) and please everyone, let's be objective. TheDrunkenBakers, you raised a useful question

There is every chance that China is not giving true figures but, give or take North Korea, they have taken the most hardline response so why are we so surprised if they succeed where we don’t? 
It is easier to fight this pandemic with less personal freedom. Forcing people to stay home, separating infected people and taking them to hospices, phone surveillance, a mandatory health app, temperature sensors,   uniform food deliveries all make it easier for them to restrict the spread than our more laissez faire approach. 

If the Chinese figures are true how have they achieved this amazing reduction in cases/deaths - not obvious to me - Chinese cases and deaths are rising slightly again this am

A broad claim for such a large place.  Have you spent much time in their concentration er sorry re-education camps?

It helps when you design and built your cities to allow a minimum number of soldiers to totally lock the population down - blocks with only a few entrance/exit points, grid system of roads diving blocks with clear sight lines, doors easily welded shut... Then it helps more when your people are raised from birth in a state controlled bubble and suspect anyone they talk to of being a state informant, and where everyone knows how easy it is to end up at the local police station for a little chat (eg by telling other medics to look out for SARS-like symptoms).

I'd be genuinely interested in where you got your statement on city/block design from

I get that state control, history and culture are all likely to assist - it's still a very impressive reduction and one we can learn from it the  figs are good

I feel ( with low confidence) that, for various reasons, the reported Chinese figs are likely to be accurate.

Walking round Beijing and then looking at lots of aerial photos.  Many of the highest density districts are apartment blocks, and they tend to follow a design where buildings form fortress like walls along the edges of the city block, with all external doors opening in to the contained block, and with just one road entrance in the centre of each edge.  4 guard posts > nobody in of out of the block.  Making small islands with hard boundaries is a really powerful way to control the virus spread.  The main roads’ grid system between districts is straight, square and generally flat.  A few soldiers on each intersection will see anyone who somehow sneaks out of the high density “fortress” blocks.

Totally agree. 

I’m more likely to believe the pollution as a proxy for economic activity returning, but it would be difficult for them to grossly lowball their figures and they have no reason to now.

It's also easy to hide reality if folk don't have freedom or live in fear. 

In the case of North Korea, people are generally not trying to get in.  So I’d not be entirely Surprised on their figures, but obviously being a totalitarian state, we have no idea what the real figures are.

Yeah, Nah, the WHO isn't going to be investigating China in depth any time soon. This Twitter video basically shows where the WHO stands when dealing with China. 

https://twitter.com/studioincendo/status/1243909358133473285?ref_src=twsrc%...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52088167

Yes, I’m no fan of the CCP.

From the outside it seems the culture against whistle blowing made it easier for COVID to take hold in Wuhan because no one wanted to pass on bad news. And it makes it easier to cover up any subsequent bad news. 
But it also makes it much easier to impose the sort of lockdown which stops COVID spreading. So it is very possible that they have had much greater success than the west in combatting it. 

I'm just a sceptic, a bit like north korea claiming they have no cases, they do have a bit of travel with China so I would be surprised if it was zero. 

I'm afraid you're talking shite. 

There's s lot wrong with China but the idea that the Chinese are brainwashed zombies is laughable.

Yes, there's no doubt been cover ups at local, then provincial then national level. Once people start telling lies it's difficult to stop without coming clean.

I didn't say they were "brainwashed zombies".  They've certainly got a radically different mindset to us in some ways however.  Both mindsets being products of their respective environments, and both environments being radically different.

I said things like "and where everyone knows how easy it is to end up at the local police station for a little chat"  - just perhaps they take lockdown a bit more seriously than us [1] - you might say it's out of a "more civic minded mentality" or you might say "its out of a sense of ingrained self preservation that arises when growing up in a borderline totalitarian state".  I don't really care which but I'm clearly not sating they're" brainwashed zombies".  So, if you're going to accuse me of "talking shite" you could at least do the decency of replying to what I wrote and not what you wanted to read.

[1] - e.g. by not having 600 parties over the weekend in one city - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688 

I think there’s either some posters here in denial or envy about China...  I also think there’s a sea change coming to international relations when the virus laden dust settles.

(I wrote) > Yes, but it does remain speculation as you say. Can someone please investigate objectively, the WHO, whoever, please, thank you

Yes, thanks, and of course I am very aware (knowing China well as I previously said) that the WHO isn't going to be investigating China at all (unless China invites them all in and gives them a free rein / very unlikely)

No, of course I have not, that's not at all likely even for someone who spent half their life in China

Well, not unless you’re a Muslim of regional ethnicity...

You are right it’s not likely - that half a million is a small fraction of a population of a billion odd.  Proportionality equivalent to the UK locking up and torturing about 30,000 by my estimate.  It’s going to be a rapidly failing population if they succeed in this ethnic cleansing.  

The figures might not be 100% accurate but they definitely coped with it better than Europe has. Didn't they lock down Beijing pretty much immediately, as soon as it broke out in Wuhan? We still had trains full of people in London up until a week or so ago.