UKH

Does anyone who is skilled in the above have any tips or tricks to help a novice?

I have a 400, 1000, and 6000 stone, and have watched plenty of you tube tutorials but am struggling.

Initially I am trying on pen knives and pocket knives so as not to ruin good knives.

Cheers

do you have a blade angle wedge? this can help initially get a good angle on both sides of your blade.

always rinse off the blade whilst sharpening bit don't rinse your stone.

start with the 400 grit then go to your 1000. the 1000 is good for keeping the edge sharp, don't always need to do both 400 and 1000.

go slowly, it's an art. 

you'll be rewarded with a blade that cuts well and a knife that lasts for a long time.

Starting on cheap stainless steel knives is possibly not the best way, because a lot of cheap steel is actually a real pain to sharpen.  It is pretty hard to completely ruin a knife, so just go ahead and try your best knives.

Are your stones decent?  The sets that Amazon sell are utterly awful.  I made the mistake of buying them and almost immediately upgraded once I'd tried proper stones.  I can get a knife sharp on the Amazon rubbish, but it's a real trial.

Cut a strip of expired credit card plastic at 20 degrees* and use this as a start guide - then you can keep checking you're at the same angle.  And as long as you are raising a burr on one side, and then removing it when you switch over, you'll get a sharp knife.  Just focus on the 1000 grit stone; the 400 is just for major repairs and the 6000 is not necessary unless you're trying to polish a mirror edge.

* 15 degrees if you've got high carbon steel which can hold a finer edge 

I'd agree with Jamie.  Anf if you're anywhere near Ilkley then Community Kitchen run an excellent knife sharpening course.

If money was no object I'd get something like the Wicked Edge. You can set your angle and sharpen both sides simultaneously. It's not perfect but it's virtually idiot proof. 

What's the difference between the Amazon stones and the proper ones, is it the material they're made from? The ones I got (from Amazon) are made of White Corundum.

This is the set I bought from Amazon when I started - there are many identical sets under other names.  

As I understand it they use the same abrasives as better artificial stones, but the binder medium is poor or entirely absent.

I can get a knife to cut fairly smoothly through newspaper with them, but it takes longer and feels much scratchier than with my Shapton or Cerax stones. The feedback is all wrong so I keep having to stop to see what's going on.  

Using the cheap stones is a chore; using good stones is actually fun!

Sharpening a bushcraft knife with a Scandi grind would be a lot easier as the blade sets the angle for you.

Slowly and build up a good slip. 

What are you using the knives for? Are you going for a back bevel (30 degree bevel and 40 edge?) or full flat grind?

Also what are you using it for - kitchen knives benefit from having micro serations but wood working edges want to be razor smooth

That might explain what's going on with me. I think my technique must be pretty good at this point but results are hit and miss and it takes ages. I just ordered a Naniwa Chosera 800 grit, it'll be interesting to see the difference.

Question to thread: do you sharpen knives in one direction or both? The youtube videos are pretty evenly split on this. 

I previously used whetstones with various grades from larger grit to smaller. I would spend at least 2 hours + sharpening all my knives every month or two which would involve an hour of soaking the stones, then spending the time outside (it's quite a messy process considering the constant wetting) properly going for it and getting a good finish.

In the end it just got too much and the end result was just not worth it for me.

I bought one of these after a bit of research - https://www.anysharp.com/products/anysharp-worlds-best-knife-sharpener-with... - and a quick 'one-two-three' pull every few uses is all that's needed for a good outcome.

I cook a lot, my knives are mid-range, nowhere near the most expensive, and I achieve the tomato test easily (cuts fruit under its own mass when pulling backwards).

I use the upgraded (with extra grits and a strop) Worksharp Precision Adjust. It’s fairly idiot proof and I can get pretty decent mirror finishes to my pocket knives and (when I can be bothered) kitchen knives. 
Being able to effortlessly push cut through paper is such a simple pleasure. 

That Naniwa will be lovely.  It's a nice one-stone-does-all solution (the classic answer to that question is Shapton Pro 1000) - it'll be fast enough for minor repair work but fine enough to give a good edge.  It'll still feel quite slow on cheap stainless.

Anyway: I am fairly ambidextrous, so I always have the blade facing away from me, and change the handle from one hand to the other to switch sides of the blade.  I think this is a little unusual - most people always keep the handle in their dominant hand and flip the blade from facing towards and away from them to switch sides.

I sharpen both ways - edge leading and edge trailing.  So my backwards and forwards strokes are pretty much identical.

The thing that did make a difference was realising that de-burring and stropping are completely different things, even though they look similar...  I now only de-burr with edge leading strokes.  The problem with trying to de-burr with edge trailing is that it tends to create a new, very thin burr.  I do this on every stone.  So for stainless I tend to set the bevel, and then de-burr, on a 320, and then refine it on a 1000, and then deburr again there.  

With high carbon steels I set the bevel and de-burr on the 1000, and refine on a 3000.

Then, regardless of steel, I strop with edge trailing strokes on first hard leather and then newspaper.

I use diamond plates (just cheap Chinese ebay jobs) for smaller edges (small knives, chisels, machine tools) they often seem to work more reliably than my cheap stones which are a bit soft. I do my kitchen knives on some budget stones of unknown provenance and grit (~800 and 1500 I'd guess), the longer contact line and lack of corners to dig in (round over) mean they work fine on knives. The diamond plates work well on kitchen knives too including stainless but the cutting oil adds a messy step so I tend not to.

I keep meaning to get some nice bench and shaped stones. One day.

jk

Per knife?

(I'm being facetious, of course, but I seem to remember mention somewhere that a Japanese swordsmith would spend several days sharpening a new katana)

After reading your post I'm now thinking that the whetstones I bought from Amazon are the main reason my blades aren't as sharp as they could be. I thought it was more likely due to my bad sharpening technique or middling quality kitchen knives.

Is consistency of grit the difference between a decent quality stone and a cheap one?

Also do you sharpen both ways - against the edge as well as away from it? (Some YouTube videos  do both)

Edit: Apologies, you've just answered at 10.16!

I have a reasonably cheap (the brand has worn off so I can't remember what it is) 8000/3000 for my Japanese carbon steel knives and just sharpen them by feel. It's not as hard as people make out and I wouldn't worry too much about ruining a good knife unless you're a total numpty and go at it perpendicular to the stone or some such. 

Knife and steel quality has as much to do with how sharp an edge you can get as the stone and your sharpening skill. I can get my carbon steel ones to cut tomatoes dropped on the blade/slice paper/shave hairs without much hassle, but getting my stainless Globals to the same edge is much harder. 

I have an aliexpress Lansky copy and a Niwaki 1000/3000 stone. The Lansky type device is good for establishing a nice consistent edge angle on a knife that has been neglected, but I find I can get a much sharper edge on the larger stone and eyeballing the angle.

I always sharpen with the blade towards me so I can hold the handle in one hand and use my fingers on my other hand to push the edge across the stone with a consistent pressure. 

No but to do a decent job each one would take quite some time. I got quote good at it too but the hassle factor wasnt worth it given what I needed to chop.

See above. I wasnt expecting to do any beheading so using the small tool I have is more than good enough to chop squash, sweet potato and other hard stuff in the kitchen without any worries.

I tried using whetstones - and whilst I could do it, I also couldn't really be bothered. 
I know some people love the process - I just love the result.

So I got a Apex Edge Pro and it's wonderful. Not cheap (but not the most expensive either), but given it'll be used on 2 lovely Japanese knives, and 3 decent kitchen knives - it should show its value.

You might find a penknife blade is hard to practice on due to the size of it. I'd look using a full-size blade to practice on, either a cheapo job from TK Maxx, or even one of your kitchen knives that's already dull. You can't RUIN a knife unless your technique is terrible.

As Luca has suggested, there are three main things going on: steel quality, stone quality, and skill.  And I think they have a sort of multiplying effect.  I can get an OK edge on my carbon steel knives with the Amazon stones, and I can get an OK edge on stainless steel knives with good stones, but getting a usable edge on stainless steel with the poor stones is a major chore.

That and the binder material.  The cheap stones just don't tell me what's going on; with a good stone I know what's happening just by feel.  

They also somehow manage to be both slow for their grit, and coarse. 

Yep - I have play around with only sharpening in one direction but it doesn't seem to make much difference to my results.  For de-burring and stropping, though, it's absolutely critical; de-burring must be edge leading and stropping edge trailing.

If you give me a dull (but not damaged) bog standard stainless knife of six or eight inches, I'll reckon on about eight or ten minutes.  That's working through a 320 grit and then 1000 grit stone, and then stropping on leather and then newspaper.  That will bring it to an edge that glides smoothly in a  draw cut through thin newspaper - that's my measure of 'good enough'.  A 'nice' stainless like X50Cr might be a bit quicker.

I'll take maybe twice as long with carbon steel like Aogami or Shirogami, but I'm aiming for a far higher final performance.

Thanks for all the replies, didn't expect to get that much information back!

The stones I'm using are indeed cheap Amazon stones.

I'm now considering investing in a superior stone and persevering, or spending more money on an Apex Edge Pro, or even a Horl 2...

Long term I'd love to 'hone' my skills with a whetstone but in the interim I want a more idiot proof way of sharpening a few knives myself.

These knives ranging from an expensive Jap Chef's knife, Opinel Fish Filleting knife, American pocket knives and pen knives

So anything I invest in, I'd like to be compatible and helpful with all of these

Two questions: firstly, what steel is your Japanese knife made from? Is it one of the Hitachi steels (Aogami/blue or Shirogami/white steel) or is it a stainless?

And do you prefer the speed of splash-and-go stones or are you happy with waiting for soaking stones?

Good to know! I hoped it would do everything. My kitchen knives are my grandparents' old Sheffield stainless and Sabatier type things, but I've got a couple of Casstrom forest knives that are high carbon. 

Thanks for the info. You mentioned some stuff there I didn't know about - I thought the aim was to create a burr and then sharpen the opposite side to remove it. Also didn't know about setting a bevel. Can you recommend anything online to learn about this stuff? 

It's a Mac Carbon Steel knife.

I'm not too fussed about whether I'm using splash and go or soaking. At this novice stage I'd just be really happy to be able to get good results with anything.

Have started considering an Apex Edge Pro to remove the difficulty, but am I just rushing into throwing money at things when I could easily master the art with a better stone...

Great info - thanks!

Some very hasty sketches attached.  It's useful to thin of a sharp knife having two bevels - there's the primary bevel (sometimes called the grind of the knife) - this determines the overall geometry.  This might be thick (workhorse-ish) or thin (laser-ish).  But then there is a secondary bevel, or edge bevel - this is the actual cutting bevel.  Theta wants to be between 12 and 15 degrees for very hard steels like the Hitachi paper steels, and more of 18-25 degrees for normal stainless.  If you sharpen a stainless knife at too fine an angle, it'll just round off in no time at all.

Diagram 2 - this is what happens when your knife dulls.  The edge bevel has rounded off.  

Diagram 3 - this is what we need to remove to restore the edge bevel.  You'll make these adjustments, and set that edge bevel, on your coarsest stone.

Diagram 4 - steel is remarkably plastic, so after sharpening one side, you'll have pushed a burr to the opposite side.  You can feel this with your thumb.  It'll get removed as soon as you start to sharpen the second side.

Diagram 5 - once you've sharpened the other side, you have then pushed a burr back to the first side.  This is the bit that people struggle with, because now you need to fully de-burr.  If you leave that burr on there it'll fold over on itself and blunt the knife almost immediately.  So this is where you need careful edge leading strokes - you're trying to get that burr off, without creating a fresh burr on the other side again (which edge trailing strokes tend to do).

Once this is all done, then and only then can you go up to the next stone.  I see no real gain in more than two stones - I go 320 to 1000 for stainless steel, and 1000 to 3000 for high carbon steels.  All the higher stone is doing is refining the edge bevel that the first stone set.  You shouldn't be relying on higher stones to change the edge bevel, or to remove the first stone's burr.

In both cases, I would expect the knife to un cleanly through thin newspaper after the first stone.  All the higher stone is doing is making that cut smoother.  You literally hear the difference.

For online resources: r/sharpening is good.  And there's a lot to learn from Kitchen Knife Forums, although they can be a bit OTT and technical:  https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forums/sharpening-station.110/

OK, so that's probably stainless, but it's good stainless.  MAC do make some Hitachi steel knives but most of their output is stainless or semi stainless.

If you want to get a single stone, probably a Shapton Pro 1000 is the place to start - they're splash and go, pretty hard (so they don't dish quickly), and have OK feedback.  If you told me I can only use one stone for the rest of my life, I'd say this one with no hesitation.

It'll be a little slow on your cheaper stainless steel, and a little unrefined on your good MAC knife.  So if you were up for two stones, I might suggest one course and one fine - maybe a 320 and a 2000?

If you prefer better feedback, at the expense of being soakers and a little more prone to dishing out after prolonged use, then Suehiro (Cerax) stones are lovely.

I'm told Naniwa are great, but they're pricier and I've not used them myself.

Between those - Apex all the way. Horl are very expensive for what they are. The Apex will accommodate a range of sizes, and a range of blade angles.

As I mentioned earlier, I'd decide first whether you want to learn the skill/art of whetstones (it's quite a cool skill, and a few hours touching up your blades is a nice way to pass the time), or just want to get your knives sharp with minimum bother.

Have a horl2…fantastic 

You total legend, thanks very much for the detailed answer and for going to the trouble of doing diagrams! I'll give it a go asap. That forum is wonderfully nerdy.  

Thanks again for all the replies on this.

Today I took delivery of a shapton Pro 320 & 1500.

With relatively little effort and time I've managed to sharpen a very dull cheap kitchen knife. (With the aid of an angle guide)

Definitely need to practice and develop my skills but considering I never managed to improve a knife with my cheap Amazon stones, this is a good result.

Aftwr sharpening the knife horizontal to the stone I did some honing sweeps, when doing these I've left marks on the stone.

Is this normal or is it an indication that I'm getting that part wrong?

Thanks in advance

What do you mean by "marks"?  

Some discoloration = not a problem.  Or you mean a score?

Remember that use of a Whetstone will create a curved dip the Whetstone (obviously .. because you're removing material every time).  It will, typically, be higher at both ends after use.

You to periodically flatten it back out again - https://amzn.eu/d/iLe8rme

Sharpen little and often would be my tip.

I use a penknife daily to open round bale silage during the winter and it need to be sharp.

30 seconds to a minute every morning is far easier and more effective than letting it get blunt before resharpening.

Can you share a photo? 

I'd be surprised if you need to flatten those stones already. The good news is that the only part of the cheap Amazon kit you bought that's actually reasonably capable at its job is the flattening stone...